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David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

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chli

Apr-13-2019 1:19 AM

As we all know, in the original film Alien the crew of the USCSS Nostromo (on their way back to Earth), on company orders, investigate a signal coming from the moon LV-426. Captain Dallas, Kane and Lambert follow the beacon which is, in fact, a warning (in an alien signal system). They discover the Derelict and the eggs, and Kane is “infected” by a facehugger which eventually leads to the famous xenomorph.

According to this classic movie, the crew are woken, by “Mother”, because a new and strange signal has been detected. However, “Mother” should have detected the signal already on the way from Earth towards Thedus. Why didn’t “she”? The answer to this question seems to be that on Thedus, the original science officer is replaced by Ash, a company synthetic, whose main task it is to implement Special Order 937 (which “Mother” is also instructed to follow).

In the prequel Prometheus, we follow Sir Peter Weyland’s expedition to another moon in the same system, LV-223, due to the discoveries of maps found in old cave paintings by doctors Holloway and Shaw. However, in the extra material on the blue-ray version of Prometheus, namely “Quiet Eye: Elisabeth Shaw”, Sir Peter Weyland states:

As fate would have it, Shaw and Holloway’s interest in Zeta 2 Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division’s own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptible signal emanating from one of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Holloway, which target LV-223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of origin could actually be the moon LV-426.

Per standard procedure, we will embed a David 8 unit with the crew. And he will be programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on LV-223. But only David will know about 426 and will ensure that the rest of the crew - including Meredith - learn nothing about the transmission we’ve recently discovered until the time is right.

The beacon, or warning signal, from the Derelict on LV-426 is already there long before the Prometheus expedition! It is, therefore, impossible that David could be the creator of the eggs on LV-426! Hence, the Space Jockey is as old as Dallas claims it to be: “Looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized”. The most plausible explanation would be that the Space Jockey is at least as old as the engineer corpses on LV-223.

Furthermore, in Prometheus, the expedition discovers the engineer experimentation facility on LV-223. They find the body of an engineer, dead for about 2000 years. They find ampules containing a pathogen which mutates organisms into hideous creatures. On a wall, they find a mural depicting a ritual in which hominids (engineers or humans) are “sacrificed” in order to create the deadly xenomorph creature (The whole cycle is there: egg, facehugger, chestburster, and the xenomorph creature).

Later on in the movie, we see what the pathogen can achieve when David persuades Holloway to have a drink spiced with the pathogen. Through intercourse, Shaw is also infected and gives birth to a large “facehugger” (the trilobite) which in turn infects a still living engineer who “gives birth” to a xenomorph creature (the deacon).

Concerning the eggs on LV-426, they were lying in wait there long before David was even contemplated and created by Sir Peter Weyland. Millennia before the crew of the USCSS Nostromo lands on LV-426, the eggs were there, patiently waiting . . .

What does 10 years of isolation do to a synthetic? “When a note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony”. David, seeing himself as superior to both humans and engineers, has in the situation of “Crusoe on his island” developed delusions of grandeur, seeing himself as the creator of the “perfect organism”.

This creature, the “perfect organism”, was in fact discovered or created by the engineers aeons ago and which, as far as the engineers on Planet 4 goes, they had renounced from ever creating again.

So, David wants to believe that he is the creator of the wolf, “the perfect organism”, but “in reality” - David did not create the xenomorph!

137 Responses to David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

chli

Apr-17-2019 11:49 PM

I don't know about Gavin, but I'm not saying that the xenomorph is a hyperintelligent being, BigDave. I'm simply saying that the xenomorph could be looked upon as a species that has evolved due to specific harsh elements in the environment. They have evolved into what they now are. They might not even exist anywhere else, only on LV-426.

Let's say that the extreme environment on LV-426 got even worse. The food supply disappeared and all the adult xenomorphs died out. But, the eggs survived, waiting, until the engineers stumbled upon them.

The engineers probably learned about the xenomorph the hard way, that's why the xenomorph lifecycle is depicted on the wall on LV-223.

BigDave

Apr-18-2019 12:22 AM

Welcome birdman

Indeed the Mural was interesting and vague, merely a Easter Egg maybe? Some use it as 100% Proof of the Xenomorph but in reality it bears little resemblance to the Xenomorph, well it more so looks like a Cross Between the Deacon and Neomorph...    Carlos Huante had some Concepts for the Xenomorph and Ultramorph for Alien Engineers draft, and while there was variations... these ones below seem to indicate what was in the Mural.

Indeed the Neomorph and Xenomorph have similar Stages, in effect the Spore Balls act like Eggs, the Released Spores act like the Face Hugger.

Davids notes indicate that he had taken the Neomorph Spores and they had been tested on Various Life-Forms he had then used the Black Goo to take/mix various traits of Various Organisms and mix them with the Neomorph.

Then this Species was then mixed with Dr Shaws Egg Cells to produce his Xenomorph.

How was this possible?  I think if we look at the GOO in Prometheus then look at the Scarabs in Alien Engineers and look at them being the same thing... then its quite simple.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-18-2019 12:39 AM

"I don't know about Gavin, but I'm not saying that the xenomorph is a hyperintelligent being, BigDave."

Certainly i did see what you meant ;)  i think its Intelligent certainly, but not as far as Building Ships etc... and i understand you was not suggesting they could do this ;)

The Xenomorph certainly is a adaptive Species, a TRUE Survivor. We could easily see that it could ADAPT and Evolve to its Environment in a Rapid way instead of say how long Natural Evolution and Selection would take.

I think if you look at it from the Engineers POV, and we dont ignore the Plot which RS keeps saying these are Space Gardeners, and if we assume they Genetically Engineer and Create Life...   Then if this is your Agenda/Goal then some Species like the Xenomorph would have a WEALTH of TRAITS that would be ideal for them to attempt to Re-Engineer and Incorporate both in terms of Genetics and Technology and so its feasible that the LV-223 Engineers had used them to Evolve themselves and their Technology.

This is a Plot that some may overlook, the Pursuit of Perfection and Evolution, we see this with David and his Xenomorph is a Amalgamation of Various Organisms best Traits...

For David could have just as easily collected the Neomorph Spores and just used them for his Evil Plans.. But he saw the potential in the Black Goo to be used to further Evolve the Neomorph and Utilize Traits of Various Organisms to make the Perfect Organism.

If we IGNORE that movie... then we could speculate the Engineers could have done the same/similar with some Organism they had encountered....  the Basis for all those Experiments on LV-223.  Could this Organism had been the Xenomorph?  Certainly at the time of Prometheus...  or at very least some Organism that is related that the Xenomorph was Engineered from.

I think theory like Gavins... cant be ruled out, certainly to a degree when we look at HR Gigers Mural... that was intended for ALIEN but things got changed a bit in the Prequels.  Seemed to indicate they (Engineers) encountered something that they used their GOO on to extract and Utilized various Traits to at least create Various Organisms related to the Xenomorph, but potentially also to Engineer themselves and their Technology.

The differences in Aesthetics between the Derelict/Space Jockey and Engineers/Juggernauts does open the door to the Engineers Reverse Engineering the Derelict/Eggs which then brings us back to WHO was the Space Jockey in this case.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Apr-18-2019 2:26 AM

LOL. Every time someone says that Alien is cooked, I'm laughing. And every time louder and louder. ;)

 

Alien is Alpha and Omega of this franchise and all movies must have xenomorphs. Like as Godzilla (no one in this world will look a separate film about MUTO's or Monarch) and James Bond. This is a title character.

 

Each film has its own Alien: Big Chap, Warriors, Queen, Runner, Mutant, Neomorph. Potential - is endless.

 

But company, androids - it's just optional parts. Engineers are more - but still a part. Potential - depends on Alien.

 

Cheers!

daliens

Apr-18-2019 4:46 AM

Yes, potential is endless, especially after they start making the "vs." extensions of the franchise. Like Alien vs. Godzilla for a start. All the way till Alien vs. James Bond.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Leto

Apr-18-2019 5:02 AM

"vs" is just versus. Just for fun. And nothing more. And, of course - Alien vs Godzilla has more fun than WY vs Monarch, lol.

daliens

Apr-18-2019 5:17 AM

That would be the death of fun!

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Leto

Apr-18-2019 5:26 AM

Agree. WY should stay on second (or third) line in the film. First place for alien stuff.

Gavin

Apr-18-2019 5:37 AM

@ birdman,

An interesting concept if I read it right - that the spore sacs are indigenous to Planet 4 and the origin of the Xenomorph race. Of course, this would then make the Space Jockey an Engineer rather than a something alien, which is why I feel many infer that the spore sacs were either mutated when David bombarded the Engineer city with the black goo or that David mutated them directly with the black goo.

@ BigDave,

Having many caches of eggs only limits the franchise if we continue down the path of the original franchise and overuse the Queen idea James Cameron introduced. But these many caches of eggs need not be restricted in such a way, but instead could show the Alien propagating in new and interesting ways, such as the return of egg morphing, or the eggs incubating parasitic variants other than the Facehugger (like with the aforementioned spore sacs).

To me, the engineers are already depicted as slaves, and more specifically a group of primitive humans taken from Earth that have not advanced much in the interim. I believe the Space Jockey is the instigator of the franchise as either one of the last original Xenomorphs hoping to sire a new, reimagined generation of his race, or something else that has laid the eggs on LV-426 for other means. With the pilot having fallen victim to his own cargo/offspring I believe the beacon was sent by the vessel itself to warn that the pilot had fallen and that a replacement was needed. But with no more available pilots another pilot instead traveled to Earth and offered primitive humans advancement and paradise in return for continuing the dead pilots work, with the resulting Engineer humans returning periodically to Earth to bolster their numbers.

But when the order came to attack Earth it created a conflict of interests with those Engineers that remembered Earth, resulting in the non-accidental outbreak on LV-223 2000 years ago.

daliens

Apr-18-2019 5:55 AM

Gavin if the vessel was so advanced, why did she still need a primitive human as pilot, especially if the pilot was not the father or the mother of the offsprings? We have autonomous vehicles today and our space missions are without pilots. 

It seems more plausible that the Spacey Jockey was like Han Solo and the eggs were no more than military or scientific cargo. Or livestock. Why not think of the xenomorphs like wild animals used for games in a gigantic dead bodies arena?

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Apr-18-2019 12:40 PM

"Alien is Alpha and Omega of this franchise and all movies must have xenomorphs."

I think it depends how its handled, a lot of Damage has been dealt to the Xenomorph, that has diminished it...  I felt that the Space Jockey Race or introduction to something more ALIEN above them is where we need to go!

But then GAVIN had put a detailed explanation to how to Elevate the Xenomorph in this TOPIC which i added a few things to, and i think YES... if something is Changed and done Right then you can Breath a New Lease of LIFE into the Xenomorph and the Tried/Tested (if not Tired) Formula.

@Gavin

Certainly can buy your reply... your turning me to the DARK (Xeno) Side lol  The Theory could Elevate the Xenomorph, especially maybe with some of the Tweaks i indicate in your other Reply HERE and also expand and carry with it the whole Prometheus Plot too.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Kage

Apr-18-2019 12:53 PM

A lot of good comments here, very interesting.  And I know people do not want to hear this, but you are all just making excuses for crappy film making by Ridley. 

I do not think he even watched his own movies.

The Space Jockey...IT IS NOT A SUIT!  Just look at it.  There is no way it is a suit, and there is no way it was originally intended to be a suit.  Writers (or Ridley) just pulled that out of their asses.

I liked Prometheus, not many in my circle did.  I was pissed there were no Aliens (I refuse to call them Xenomorphs).  But there were hints of it so I was ok with it.  If you take the fingers off a facehugger it looks EXACTLY like a Hammerpede.  The Deacon was just stupid since you already had a Dead "fossilized" Engineer with a small "bones bent outwards", and not his entire body exploded.  WATCH YOUR OWN MOVIES RIDLEY.

I loved Covenant, but the more I watch and the more I think about it, the more I hate it.  I like this topic because having David be the creator of the Alien is just plane stupid.  Unless it was part of the story (which I doubt) taking the mechanical out of a Bio-mechanical creature...screw you Ridley.

Prometheus was Ridley PURPOSELY NOT including the Alien out of spite and he broke timelines and filled holes just so he could. Hence the Deacon and "Engineer suits". 

Covenant was equally bad because it was Ridley saying "FINE, I'll put the alien back in" but the story was already screwed up so Covenant was written to fill those holes.  He is even quoted as saying "If you want Aliens, I'll give you god damn Aliens" 

Ridleys own ego destroyed the whole thing.  

 

Gavin

Apr-18-2019 2:08 PM

@ Kage,

I agree with your sentiment, that Scott does not have the franchises best interest at heart. as for the Space Jockey I believe it can be a suit, but in no way do I believe that within that suit is an Engineer, instead imagine a combination of the following two images...

I have previously postulated that the being inside the Space Jockey suit was akin to the second image, evoking Lovecraftian elements into the Alien franchise. However, I now prefer the following - a tall humanoid alien creature whose head looks like the top image (a human proportioned alien-esque dome), but instead of the Aliens tongue-with-teeth inside the creatures mouth, which maybe could open in a similar way to Blade 2's Nomak (pictured below), is a mass of tentacles as per the aforementioned second Lovecraftian image.

BigDave

Apr-18-2019 7:23 PM

"The Space Jockey...IT IS NOT A SUIT!  Just look at it.  There is no way it is a suit, and there is no way it was originally intended to be a suit.  Writers (or Ridley) just pulled that out of their asses."

Well if its a Skeleton its a Pretty Cartoon Looking one!

Above is the Concept work for the Space Jockey and the Actual Space Jockey from the Movie.  

The Head/Face (A) is what looks like a a Skull especially the Eyes/Mouth on the Actual Movie Prop, but this Skull's is Directly connected to the Chair, just as the Concept Work which is more clearer.

The Body/Rib-cage (B) does look Skeletal on both Concept and Prop.

The Arms (C) do-not look like a Typical Skeleton, even if we look at the Hands and Shoulders and the Arm is Connected to the Chair and looks more like something Synthetic rather than a Skeleton.

The Snorkel (D) does not look Biological on the Concept, but it would pass as such on the Prop, but other shots of the Space Jockey do show it to have some Piping look to it.

Above is 3 Face Huger Concepts, with HR Gigers Mural intended for Alien, and you can not the similarities with the Suits, these also are similar to the Space Jockey (previous Concept posted).   This indicates the Space Jockey was envisioned as a Suit, but also its occupants are BALD Humanoids.  These Predate any Production on ALIEN.

I will say that their are some Differences in Size and Aesthetics to the Derelict/Space Jockey and Juggernaught/Engineers which could allow for us to reveal the Space Jockey and Derelict as things the Engineers had Re-Engineered/Stolen..

I know people were Disappointed with the Engineers as the Space Jockey, despite them appearing in Concept Work for ALIEN.  But it leaves it open to explore the Original Space Jockey Race as either.

1) A Not-So Human looking Race in a Space Suit (as Gavin had indicated)

2) A Totally Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph, by that i will refer you to this image (especially the Body).

@Gavin

I would certainly welcome something more ALIEN than the Engineers as the 15ft Space Jockey, certainly the Proportions are not the same as the Engineer suits either.

So yeah under the Mask we could get quite Adventurous, or even have the Entire thing a Bio-Mechanical Species.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-18-2019 7:38 PM

@kage

Welcome aboard, and i dont intend to be disrespectful here, so please bare with me ;)

I think a lot of confusion came from Prometheus and at HOW it connects with ALIEN, and indeed some were Disappointed with the Deacon and thought so HOW does this relate to the Xenomorph.. its not helped by comments by RS and Lindeloff when they suggest this is the Precursor to the Xenomorph.

What is intended to be shown is that Dr Shaws, Deacon is connected to the Mural Deacon, its just a alternative version, but something similar had been experimented on and Created on LV-223 Thousands of Years ago... that a Few Hundred Years later had lead to the Xenomorph. (RS had confirmed this to a degree, as he stated the Xeno was connected to LV-223, and the Derelict/Space Jockey event happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak 2000 years ago on LV-223, and that something EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold... when consider that they also said the Deacon was a Predecessor so to speak to the Xenomorph, this indicates the Xenomorph came some 200 or so years after the Outbreak on LV-223 that killed most of the Engineers Off.

A thing to remember is the STUDIO had decided that the whole Engineers Plot was more interesting and NEW and we had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and maybe some Mystery should be kept... so they got in Damon Lindeloff to Pen a New Draft, which then RS had agreed that maybe leaving the Xenomorph a Mystery and going for something else would allow the Prequels to go off on a different Tangent and NOT connect to ALIEN

Likewise it was the STUDIO that had persuaded RS and his Writing Team to change Prometheus 2 to be what we got in Alien Covenant which was a Direct Prequel Route to give Fans Answers and Xenomorphs, this actually is a direction that RS appears to NOT have been a Fan of.

Although we should all throw stones at Ridley Scott because it appears he was the prime reason for the David Created it Plot Change...

Prior to that Ridley Scott just felt the Franchise could and should expand Beyond the Xenomorph which was merely a Ancient Bio-Weapon and once you showed that and HOW/WHEN it got on the Derelict... its a case of whats NEXT?

More Queens, Eggs and Xenomorphs? so he was thinking the Engineers/Space Jockey were the Bigger Picture.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Apr-19-2019 1:43 AM

we had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and maybe some Mystery should be kept...

I think, this is the main mistake. Alien had an unintended mystery. But Prometheus had mystery only for mystery. Ridley cut all cool scenes only for mystery: elder engineers (better than lone Engineer), Engineer speak (great), and Engineer in Vickers pod (it should be in movie). And we meet original Engineers in Covenant and... meh?

 

Although we should all throw stones at Ridley Scott because it appears he was the prime reason for the David Created it Plot Change...

I don't think so. It may be Giler's ideas.

 

-----------

 

About Space Jockey. Giger called him as The Pilot. And we all know how looks pilot masks.

It's a helmet - no doubt.

BigDave

Apr-19-2019 8:24 AM

@Leto

Indeed.... nice analogy of the Pilot Helmets ;)  I shared the same kinds of images to make the same point when Prometheus was out ;)

Regarding the Ridley Stones comment it was tongue in cheek, while he seemed to like the idea, indeed i dont think this was his Intention in 2011-2013, and who knows if others behind the scenes had came up with that U-Turn, such as Giler and Hill... so good point.

Regarding the EDIT of Prometheus....

Those Scenes Gave a lot away as far as the Agenda of the Space Jockey Race/Engineers.... Ridley Scott said he felt the Elders gave away a bit of Mystery, we can speculate he may have used that as the reason, or he may have been Disappointed in how they came across.

The Extended Dialog was cut due to Pacing... so he claimed.

The Extended Engineer Scene vs Dr Shaw, he asked for a Re-shoot as he felt that it made the Engineer appear to be weaker than intended... as Dr Shaw put up a Good Fight, when maybe she should have been SQUASHED like a Bug!

However the Scenes that are CUT paints a picture of a Interest in Dr Shaw, he could have killed her easy, it appeared this was not is Intention... well not as far as to just GO Postal!

Once they decided to Re-shoot the Engineer already had his Face Burn which happened during his Fight with the Trilobite (likely from Acid).... so by Virtue of this Re-Shoot and NOT having to spend time to Re-do the Make Up...  this meant other Scenes had to be CUT and not Edited down.

some of these Scenes gave some Insight into the Engineers, that made them to NOT appear as just Angry Aggressive SOB's

The Status Quo of the Engineers was Genetic Space Gardeners... and in the Drafts, it was indicated this Race had became Sterile... due to Engineering themselves a certain way.

This could be a Good Reason to Create Mankind.

Which i then speculated a few times, could they have intended to have obtained a FEMALE that they then could Procreate with.... this could maybe explain a certain Interest in Dr Shaw by the Engineer.  But then again he soon took care of FORD!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Apr-21-2019 3:07 AM

Here’s a quotation from “Advent” which suggests that the engineers created the xenomorph (the wolf) through “sacrifice” (murder) of engineers or humans. Later on, however, they abandon this horrible ritual and become the more simple and peace-loving engineers we see on Planet 4 - who David detests and exterminates.

You wouldn’t believe the secrets I have unlocked. There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself.

Gavin

Apr-21-2019 1:20 PM

@ chli,

That quote is unfortunately so ambiguous it can be interpreted in many ways.

"Sacrifice cleansed them of their sins"...

# They sacrificed themselves to give birth to their god; the Xenomorph, thus cleansing themselves of any perceived sin in life, or

# They sacrificed themselves to create life (Prometheus opening scene) instead of death (weaponized black goo) thus cleansing their sins of having once created said death, or

#The Engineers on LV-223 sacrificed themselves by instigating the breakout 2000 years ago, to cleanse themselves of weaponizing the Xenomorph that was to be used against Earth.

"Banish the wolf, and undo their creation"...

# Abandon their weaponization of the black goo turning it into the substance the sacrificial Engineer consumed, or

 # Abandon the Xenomorph and reduce it to its core elements; the black goo

There could be other interpretations, but I think you get my point. Remember, one's truth is dictated by one's point of view.

@daliens,

Sorry forgot about this one.

"if the vessel was so advanced, why did she still need a primitive human as pilot, especially if the pilot was not the father or the mother of the offsprings? We have autonomous vehicles today and our space missions are without pilots."

Simple answer - control. If the Juggernauts are indeed sentient and/or living vessels as many of us believe, then would they trust such an autonomous vessel with the task of transporting the last remnants of your race, or the universes deadliest biological weapon. Most autonomous drones in use today, of which space missions could also be included are used for observation and the collection of data. However, despite that Predator Drones could be autonomously controlled they are still remote piloted by human pilots.

On the subject of whether or not the Space Jockey is a suit or a skeleton. If it is the latter we are pretty restricted to what Dark Horse comics called the Mala'kak...

However, if what we saw is, in fact, a suit, what is within can be almost anything. Which from a creative standpoint is much more interesting.

BigDave

Apr-21-2019 8:57 PM

"You wouldn’t believe the secrets I have unlocked."

David Discovers the Potential of the Black Goo, or what it was once used for.

"here was so much potential on this world, Wasted by Gods that feared their own might."

David realizes the Various Life forms on Planet 4, could have had the potential to be greater if the Engineers used the Black Goo/Experiments from LV-223

"They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators"

This is tricky, it could indicate a reason for the Sacrifice to Create Mankind as seen as a Redemption of Sin, or that the Sacrifice to Host a Organism would Redeem them, in the Creation of something NEW.

"Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb"

This Wolf could refer to the Black Goo, a Organism Related to/from the Black Goo.  The Lamb could refer to themselves or Creations they would use to Sacrifice to the Black Goo/Organism.

"But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself.”

We again have to wonder what is the Wolf?  We could assume the Xenomorph or Similar, but it could mean the Black Goo (and Organisms it could create) it could mean the LV-223 Engineers or even Mankind.

So its has Gavin said, this is so ambiguous, we have to look at it depending if we are looking at Davids Agenda as preserved in Alien Covenant, the Engineers in Prometheus.

Or Ridley Scotts comments..

I would assume the Engineers had discovered something that allowed them to Evolve themselves, and be used for their Technology, then something was Created from this which they Regretted and decided to abandon.

Ridley Scott does still refer to the Engineers as Gardeners of Space i think unlocking exactly what they do in regards of these Space Gardeners is the BIG KEY point which i think any clues would help Greatly but this remains one of those Unanswered Questions.

So a lot also has to do with WHAT exactly was the Purpose of the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus (Create Life on Earth, to show how they Seed Life on all Worlds, or was this the Creation of those LV-223 Engineers).

So its determining WHEN the Sacrificial Goo Scene was, and then HOW-LONG before or after did they have all this Bio-Mechanical Technology and those LV-223 Experiments.

The Sacrificial Scene IF the same happened on Earth would mean this was Many Millions of Years ago we can assume (Even over a Billion).

Ridley Scott claimed those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and so do they Predate ONLY the LV-223 Engineers? or the Sacrificial Engineer too?

The earliest Cave Map to LV-223 was 35'000 years ago, had those Engineers been Creating those Experiments for that long or greater, and then WHY wait 33'000 years before attempting and failing to unleash the Black Goo on Earth?

I think the Franchise is so Ambiguous that i think we cant rule out or accept any theory really...

Maybe Alien Covenants sequel would give us the Answers.. if the Xenomorph is David's Wolf.... then WHAT are his Lambs.... the Covenant Crew?  Or any Engineered Humans that he would Create for himself.

This would depend on WHY those LV-223 ExperimentsRidely Scott and the Alien Engineers draft seemed to indicate they was Biological Warfare to use against Rebellious Creations and for Protection against such Creations.

But there is so much Contradicting Stuff with the Prequels and Comments by Ridley Scott that its maybe impossible to Gauge what the HELL is going on.

So its Fun to Speculate!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Apr-22-2019 12:55 AM

Ridley Scott does still refer to the Engineers as Gardeners of Space i think unlocking exactly what they do in regards of these Space Gardeners is the BIG KEY point which i think any clues would help Greatly but this remains one of those Unanswered Questions.

 

This. The Main problems with prequels - they gives keys, but... as we all know - the keys are absolutely useless without the keyhole. And, as we all know, FOR THE GREAT MYSTERY Ridley didn't give any keyhole.

Gavin

Apr-22-2019 3:49 AM

@ Leto,

This is, in part, the fault of Damon Lindelof and why he was brought on to rewrite Prometheus - to give the movie what he and J. J. Abrams call the "Mystery Box" effect, a technique they also famously used in Lost... that worked out well for Damon (-sarcasm-)

@ BigDave,

Ridley Scott's comments that the Planet 4 Engineers predate the LV-223 engineers makes sense and fits in with my deduction of the clues we have seen thus far of the Engineers. I have mentioned repeatedly my belief that the Engineers are merely primitive humans, so let me elaborate. First my theory/deductions...

Many thousands of years ago a Juggernaut either landed on Earth or was discovered on Earth by Paleolithic/Neolithic humans who were then taken to Planet 4 and offered paradise in return for continuing the work of the fallen Space Jockey on LV-426, to spread the Xenomorph; the humans accepted. The humans were evolved to their pinnacle form, becoming Engineers and a few were chosen/blessed and granted bio-mechanical augmentations that would allow them to interface with the Juggernauts and fulfill their part of the deal.

Fearing/respecting the Xenomorph the Engineers on Planet 4 devised a method of weaponizing the bioweapon (in a bid to protect the augmented Engineers), following which the augmented Engineers then gathered eggs from the ill-fated derelict Juggernaut on LV-426, transported them to LV-223 and began weaponization of the Xenomorph eggs, likely unleashing them on other worlds that were full of life. Periodically the (augmented) LV-223 Engineers would return to Earth to add to their numbers on Planet 4 and to sacrifice a chosen few to their weapon, testing it.

In time, the Engineers on Planet 4, having developed a civilized society (equivalent to bronze age humans, suggesting their artificial evolution was purposefully restricted to keep them primitive) began to view the part of the deal they had made with trepidation, eventually devising a way to alter the weaponized Xenomorph black goo into a catalyst capable of creating new life, rather than spreading the instrument of the death (the Xenomorph). With the LV-223 Engineers likely needing to be periodically draughted (accidents inevitably happen), Engineers that were more recently chosen to receive bio-mechanical augmentation would likely have been less devout than longer serving LV-223 Engineers in regard to spreading the Xenomorph.

Thus when the Juggernauts/Space Jockeys ordered Earth to be the next target for the weaponized Xenomorph, and with Earth being the Engineers ancestral homeworld the newly drafted LV-223 Engineers sacrificed their lives by instigating an outbreak of the weaponized Xenomorph on LV-223, believing the outbreak would decimate all of LV-223 Engineers.

2000 years later one of the long-serving LV-223 Engineers is awoken by his ancestral kindred; humans. Angry at the Engineers that instigated the outbreak for their heresy, upon realizing he had survived said outbreak and likely fearful of the Juggernauts/Space Jockeys, the last LV-223 Engineer hastily proceeded to carry out the order he had received 2000 years prior.

... sounds fanciful right, but there is evidence in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant that supports it all...

# Shaw and Fords sample taken from the decapitated Engineer shows that the Engineer was human, with Shaw later clarifying that said Engineers DNA predates our own.

# The earliest star map discovered by Shaw and Holloway was that discovered on the Isle of Skye, which was at least 38,000 years old (Paleolithic).

# The Engineers language is Proto-Indo-European, a human language developed and used on Earth 4700 years ago (Late Neolithic).

# With the exception of the Juggernauts and the biomechanical augmentations of the LV-223 Engineers, the Engineers repeatedly use Neolithic and Bronze Age technology - wooden flute, woolen cloaks, pottery bowl, pottery urns, the Engineer City, Planet 4 Engineer attire, etc.

# The decapitated Engineer, and his companions (as shown by the holographic recording in the LV-223 dome) were running to the source of the outbreak wearing their spacesuits/armor.

# The last ordered target for the black goo urns was Earth, this order was given at the time of, or prior to the outbreak that wiped out all but the last LV-223 Engineer.

# The Sacrificial Engineer was not an LV-223 Engineer but a planet 4 Engineer, as were the (deleted) engineers that originally featured in that scene.

# Advent relates that the Planet 4 Engineers renounced the Xenomorph, and discontinued their studies into the creature and its weaponization.

# The urns and glass vials used to transport and weaponize the black goo are both primitive technologies.

...Reportedly the substance consumed by the Sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus' opening scene is the same as that seen throughout Prometheus. The latter contaminates whatever it infects with genetic traits of the Xenomorph (Hammerpedes acidic blood, Fifield's originally intended mutation, Holloways uber-Facehugger child), which would mean the Sacrificial Engineer would have been seeding a planet of Xenomorphs, unless said scene occurred after the Planet 4 Engineers reverse engineered the black goo to create new life. Which aligns with the theory that Engineers are primitive humans and not the creators of life on Earth. 

Also, Engineers being a few millennia old slaves sounds more plausible than being billions of years old creators capable of seeding life that will, billions of years later evolve to have a genetic match.

I know BigDave will remind us of Scott's statement of the Space Jockeys being space gardeners. But compare the perception of a gardener from the perspective of a flower, and that of a weed - to a flower a gardener is a giving god with the promise of new life, to a weed a gardener is the harbinger of death and destruction. A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower because of their ability to propagate unchecked without the need of the gardener. To the Space Jockey's the Xenomorph is the flower, all other life are weeds.

Finally, some have mentioned that the Humans on planet 4 look more human than both the LV-223 Engineers and the Sacrificial Engineer. From a production standpoint applying and maintaining the level of prosthetics used for the LV-223/Sacrificial Engineers on a cast of 100+ extras would have been a logistical nightmare, thus the makeup effects used were simplified. With a budget of $111 million, Scott could have used CGI to augment the aforementioned actors to match the LV-223/Sacrificial Engineers, but instead wasted the money on the needlessly homo-erotic flute scene.

Leto

Apr-22-2019 5:50 AM

A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower because of their ability to propagate unchecked without the need of the gardener. To the Space Jockey's the Xenomorph is the flower, all other life are weeds.

Best explanation. David also said: To Create, You Must Destroy. May be humans is not a "weeds" for engineers, but they they definitely "the soil" for aliens.

---

 

Many thousands of years ago a Juggernaut either landed on Earth or was discovered on Earth by Paleolithic/Neolithic humans who were then taken to

Also, Engineers being a few millennia old slaves sounds more plausible than being billions of years old creators capable of seeding life that will, billions of years later evolve to have a genetic match.

I used this idea in my early works. Engineers are primitive humans, who were abducted from Earth to serve the Master Race. Humans was be upgraded and then they rebelled against the Master Race. And after all - used they technology of Master Race.

 

Yeah, changed Engineers - strange moment. I think - it's no a plot aspect, but - budget. But... with inexpensive CG? Really strange. If any one ask me, I can say - it's discontinuity.

 

 

BigDave

Apr-22-2019 5:54 PM

I think LETO ambiguity is not a problem as long as they had a idea of how A connects to Z, but a lot of it seemed they never had a Real Solid Plan... sometimes people like Mystery some like Spoon Feeding.... i think they needed the Balance, and while study of Prometheus and comments by Production and other things can give us a better understanding... Most People are just going to watch the Movie and not bother with extra material (or Re-watch it over and over) and so i feel Prometheus was just a bit too Ambiguous.. but as Lindeloff had said... if it was NOT so then there would not be so much to debate.

"A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower "

Thats a good point Gavin and also Leto's reply, its Ambiguous to what connection such Gardening Involved... i feel anything that Steers More closer to Ancient God Mythos and Steers away from something VERY ALIEN could be seen as a Distraction from what ALIEN was about.

There are repeating Multiple Layers of this Creation ARC...  some were expecting something that would link more to a SOUL, a After-Life and meeting more God-like beings... to me Prometheus was not about that but i wont go into detail because well it would require a long post thats OFF TOPIC and would not appeal to many.

I think something more Surreal, Lovecraftian should be explored something Horrific.... But i am not quite buying the MILLIONS of years old RACE who created the Derelict and Eggs, then used the Engineers and used them to Create Mankind all for the Purpose of Harvesting... because well we have to assume this Process takes Millions of Years...

Unless our Xenomorphs or whoever Created the Heavens and Earth and Mankind 6000 years ago LOL

I think we could look at Planet 4 as a Garden of Eden, where those beings were Taken to then allow for Mankind to had existed but depending how we explore this PLOT, it really comes down to what role the Xenomorph had... and for some Fans the whole Gods and Creators is just taking the Franchise away from ALIEN... the whole Xenomorph was a Engineered Weapon Created a Long Time after the Engineers went around Seeding Worlds and so the ALL-TIME Agenda was not...  Seed Worlds, to then come back Tens of Thousands or Millions of years later to USE them as HOSTS.

Which i think does-not set well with some fans... but the Prequels was intended to NOT be a ALIEN movie as in cover in depth the Xenomorph... it was to go and do its own thing about the Engineers and Creation, but this BOLD Plot was a bit of a Poisoned Challace...

A distraction for some from the XENOMORPH and maybe in Hindsight the Space Jockey should have been some Ancient Race, FAR FAR away from Home with that CARO and for some Mystery Reason.

The Problem is HOW do you introduce Humans?  It would have to be they just by Coincidence appear around LV-426 and discover a Outpost or the Derelict, or they detect the SOS and Investigate... which well was already done in ALIEN.

IF the Space Jockey was a Alien Species who are NOT Connected to Earth, and he was carrying a Bio-Weapon then we have to ask for what Conflict and Where, and where are these WARING Races or Factions.

Do we explore them? How do you introduce Human Characters, and WHY have Mankind not came across any of this Conflict in the Franchise.

IF the Space Jockey are just seeding the Xenomorph for some other Reason, we have to ask WHY and for what Benefit, if its to spread the Xeno across the Galaxy then HOW far had they got in the Galaxy and WHY had they not ever managed to be successful with Mankind.

The Creators/Gods Plot allowed them to introduce Humans via Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings..   The Potential at some point they wished to UNDO us with a Bio-Weapon that proved to be Costly to themselves which they maybe then Abandoned and just in their Ignorance and Naivety thought that they would just let Mankind ROT on Earth, as its not like without the Engineers we would NEVER evolve to the point of being able to Travel the Stars, and so again another Hubris. (First messing about Creating Horrific Bio-Weapons).

There is so many different routes to explore the Agenda of the Space Jockey Race... thats its hard to come up with a PLOT that will please everyone...  WHY i canceled my projects.

I will throw this into the debate!

The Source i had seemed to claim Mankind played the Bigger Role in the Xenomorph and we are 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, the Engineers are Genetically connected to us,  they (i assume LV-223) are more in common with David than us...  The Engineers are NOT the Gods...

Sounded a bit ODD to some when i passed that on in early March 2015

But then after Alien Covenant over 2 years latter we had these concepts by TWO Artist (Steve Messing and Wayne Haagg) and we have to ASK... what the Hell did these mean?

Those beings DONT look Engineer but HUMAN.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Apr-23-2019 12:56 AM

Since this topic is about whether or not David created the xenomorph, I would like to elaborate somewhat concerning that.

The information in Prometheus is ambiguous. The black goo either comes from or creates a xenomorph creature. The mural depicts the xenomorph life cycle. The hologram shows engineers running from something and those who don’t make it in time to the closing safety doors ends up dead with holes in their chests. Shaw births a huge face hugger (the trilobite) and an engineer births the deacon (with xenomorphic traits).

Still, it could perhaps be argued that this is not the real biomechanical alien . . .

The novelization of Prometheus was only released in Japan (it would have been an interesting read) but the differences compared to the film can be read about in Xenopedia. However, the other novelizations, by Alan Dean Foster, are available (I recently read his novelization of “The Thing”. Very good!).

In Foster’s novelization of Alien: Covenant the encounter between David and Oram is somewhat different from the film. After killing the neomorph Oram follows David into his lab:

“Oram found himself filing past a row of tall, menacing bipeds. Their tough exoskeletons gleamed like black steel. Though there were slight individual variations, all had in common the same threatening aspect - long tails ending in scorpion-like points, curving elongated skulls devoid of visible eyes, and jaws filled with teeth shining like chromed chisel.”

Later on, David shows Oram an old, petrified egg with a petrified facehugger inside. As Oram winces, David says:

“In case you are wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers’ skill. And also, I suppose, of their hubris. Would that I could create something so perfect in its function”

As for story and screenplay, Paglen, Green, Logan, and Harper are credited.

daliens

Apr-23-2019 2:52 AM

chli

The Engineers from the hologram in Prometheus could be rather running from some accidental, or caused by some sabotage, black goo spill / contamination.

The head they found inside the sanctuary displayes some new cells in a state of change and some black goo started to drip from the temples after they run a stem line into locus coeruleus. 

The pile of dead Engineers suits had holes everywhere, from helmets to boots, it reminds of the effect of black goo on the Engineers from planet 4.

There is no mention of the xenomorph in Prometheus. The Deacon was the result of a black goo chain reaction on Holloway, Shaw and the last surviving Engineer, but just to prove, IMO, that the human genome was needed to achieve the xenomorph in its bipedal form. There were other manifestations of the black goo on worms and Fifield. It confirms its limitless potential what David said in Advent:

"t is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

The Deacon was probably what inspired David to create the xenomorph. 

I don't know what to say about the murals, are they part of the "Mystery Box"? Was the Deacon from the mural like a warning sign (pictograms) only: "Caution! Do not sleep with your wife if you ingested black goo! This is what will happen! We hardly nailed that burster!"

We have no other clue in Prometheus that the Engineers created the xenomorph. 

We have all clues that David created the xenomorph in Alien Covenant. 

The films are canon, novelisations are not.

So all credit goes to David.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Leto

Apr-23-2019 3:11 AM

The Deacon was probably what inspired David to create the xenomorph.

David never saw the Deacon.

 

I don't know what to say about the murals, are they part of the "Mystery Box"? Was the Deacon from the mural like a warning sign (pictograms) only

I don't think so. Holloway said: "Just another tomb". I think the Deacon-like creature in the mural is the source of Black Goo. Or a messiah for Engineers, or a special creature that gives Engineers their power. And Engineer's head in center is a scientist or a conqueror who has curbed this power. Perhaps the engineers of LV-223 want to resurrect this creature.

And, I think, we need Lara Croft for this mystery. :)

daliens

Apr-23-2019 3:23 AM

"David never saw the Deacon."

David never saw that Deacon. That Deacon was an accident, like the Hammerpede. But David could have learned about the effects of the black goo from inscriptions and during the travel to planet 4. I want to underline that the Deacon or a similar xenomorph as an effect of black goo on the Engineers was known to them, but they did not created it intently, like David did later on.

For Holloway,  as an archeologist, it looked like a tomb, but I think it was rather a sanctuary, tha black goo was stable in that room due to controlled conditions that changed when Prometheus crew opened the door.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

Apr-23-2019 3:27 AM

"And, I think, we need Lara Croft for this mystery. :)"

Lara Croft is the wife of David, so she shoul know more :)

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

Apr-23-2019 4:35 AM

@ daliens,

As I just pointed out in the "Are the eggs still on LV-426" thread, there is enough evidence in Alien: Covenant to negate Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph - such as when he asserts this to Walter during a conversation whereby Walter points out the David is an "off note", broken, damaged, insane... a liar.

Covenant has connotations to John Milton's Paradise Lost, with David mirroring the fall of Lucifer, and one of Lucifers many titles is "the prince of lies" - throughout Alien: Covenant David lies over and again. His assertion that he created the Xenomorph is a lie, fabricated from a broken mind suffering from delusions of omnipotence.

"It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

Yes, with the above quote David is talking about, in Advent, the black goo. But the same description applies to the Xenomorph. One is not the precursor to the other, they are one and the same - the black goo is the Xenomorph, just in a weaponized form, developed by the engineers to be deployed in pottery urns containing glass vials. Of course, this is my assertion, and you likely have your own, but as a said above David only claims he created the "perfect organism" during a conversation about his apparent fallibility, suggesting it is a lie.

@ BigDave,

Engineers, humans, one and the same in my opinion. the two theories for Engineers relationship to humanity are...

# They are a precursor race, humans that existed before we did. As explored in Doom 3, The Red Planet, Assasins Creed, etc.

# They are human slaves, taken by Aliens to serve them. As explored in Stargate.

Either is possible and likely, but when we look at the Engineers technology on Planet 4 and their perceived behavior mentioned in Advent we are given two choices...

# They created life and waited billions of years for humanity to evolve, visited humanity, sought to destroy humanity using the black goo, and then turned away from using the black goo.

# or, as human slaves they returned periodically to Earth, and when they got the order to destroy earth refused and turned away from the black goo using it instead to create life.

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