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David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

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chli

Apr-13-2019 1:19 AM

As we all know, in the original film Alien the crew of the USCSS Nostromo (on their way back to Earth), on company orders, investigate a signal coming from the moon LV-426. Captain Dallas, Kane and Lambert follow the beacon which is, in fact, a warning (in an alien signal system). They discover the Derelict and the eggs, and Kane is “infected” by a facehugger which eventually leads to the famous xenomorph.

According to this classic movie, the crew are woken, by “Mother”, because a new and strange signal has been detected. However, “Mother” should have detected the signal already on the way from Earth towards Thedus. Why didn’t “she”? The answer to this question seems to be that on Thedus, the original science officer is replaced by Ash, a company synthetic, whose main task it is to implement Special Order 937 (which “Mother” is also instructed to follow).

In the prequel Prometheus, we follow Sir Peter Weyland’s expedition to another moon in the same system, LV-223, due to the discoveries of maps found in old cave paintings by doctors Holloway and Shaw. However, in the extra material on the blue-ray version of Prometheus, namely “Quiet Eye: Elisabeth Shaw”, Sir Peter Weyland states:

As fate would have it, Shaw and Holloway’s interest in Zeta 2 Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division’s own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptible signal emanating from one of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Holloway, which target LV-223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of origin could actually be the moon LV-426.

Per standard procedure, we will embed a David 8 unit with the crew. And he will be programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on LV-223. But only David will know about 426 and will ensure that the rest of the crew - including Meredith - learn nothing about the transmission we’ve recently discovered until the time is right.

The beacon, or warning signal, from the Derelict on LV-426 is already there long before the Prometheus expedition! It is, therefore, impossible that David could be the creator of the eggs on LV-426! Hence, the Space Jockey is as old as Dallas claims it to be: “Looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized”. The most plausible explanation would be that the Space Jockey is at least as old as the engineer corpses on LV-223.

Furthermore, in Prometheus, the expedition discovers the engineer experimentation facility on LV-223. They find the body of an engineer, dead for about 2000 years. They find ampules containing a pathogen which mutates organisms into hideous creatures. On a wall, they find a mural depicting a ritual in which hominids (engineers or humans) are “sacrificed” in order to create the deadly xenomorph creature (The whole cycle is there: egg, facehugger, chestburster, and the xenomorph creature).

Later on in the movie, we see what the pathogen can achieve when David persuades Holloway to have a drink spiced with the pathogen. Through intercourse, Shaw is also infected and gives birth to a large “facehugger” (the trilobite) which in turn infects a still living engineer who “gives birth” to a xenomorph creature (the deacon).

Concerning the eggs on LV-426, they were lying in wait there long before David was even contemplated and created by Sir Peter Weyland. Millennia before the crew of the USCSS Nostromo lands on LV-426, the eggs were there, patiently waiting . . .

What does 10 years of isolation do to a synthetic? “When a note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony”. David, seeing himself as superior to both humans and engineers, has in the situation of “Crusoe on his island” developed delusions of grandeur, seeing himself as the creator of the “perfect organism”.

This creature, the “perfect organism”, was in fact discovered or created by the engineers aeons ago and which, as far as the engineers on Planet 4 goes, they had renounced from ever creating again.

So, David wants to believe that he is the creator of the wolf, “the perfect organism”, but “in reality” - David did not create the xenomorph!

175 Responses to David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

chli

Apr-29-2019 10:36 PM

BigDave

As fans, I think we need another movie to conclude this epic saga. Like Sauron or Darth Vader, the Devil (David) is now at the height of his power. He is set free. With his army of “wolves” he can destroy mankind and what else kind of “intelligent” life there is in the galaxy/universe. There would have to be some kind of apocalypse where Satan is overthrown and put into chains again.

ignorantGuy

Apr-30-2019 2:08 AM

@chli However Sauron and Darth Vader are not the Devil in those stories. Morgoth (literally the first born and most puwerful angel-like Ainur, the creator of the Balrogs and the orcs) and Palpatine are. Sauron in the Lord of the Rings is not at his most powerful he was already defeated, lost his physical form and only reappears as a spirit-like presence at the end of the Third Age. And one could argue that Vader was the most powerful in Revenge of the Sith before being mutilated and burnt.

chli

May-02-2019 10:14 AM

ignorantGuy

Sauron was merely used as a symbol in a battle between good and evil. Sauron would have taken over Middle Earth if the ring hadn't been destroyed (and mankind would have fallen). David now has the ring (the wolves) . . .

ignorantGuy

May-02-2019 11:21 AM

chli Look both sides of good and evil in LotR are less than they were and Humanity has already fallen during the second age when they failed to destroy the ring. The book permeates the feeling that if the great heroes of the past would have been alive current Sauron wouldn't stand a chance.

Even now the good guys fail and the world is saved by luck or Divine intervention that Gollum rips Frodo's finger with the Rig off and falls into the mountain. Evil will always be and will always corrupt.

David is just a delusional @$$-hole.

chli

May-04-2019 2:41 AM

Concerning the discussion about whether David created the xenomorph (the eggs found by the crew of the Nostromo on LV-426), here's an image of the distances between the places of interest. It's 18 years between the happenings in Alien: Covenant and Alien.

BigDave

May-04-2019 6:26 PM

Where did this MAP come from?

I am not sure that we had been given any Co-Ordinates to Origae-6 but that System (Xi Aurigae) would maybe match the Journey Time of the Covenant if we consider Earth to Planet 4 took say 10-12 Months.

Using this Star Chart from say around when David likely send the Advent in Early Jan 2105, the Co-Ordinates of where he sent the Message falls within the same area as Zeta 2 Reticuli but this is the View from Earth, and it only indicates they are located within the same area of our Night Sky, it does-not mean that Planet 4 is 39-40 Light Years away.

The Covenant had 7 More Re-Charges before Origae-6 which would take 7 Years 4 Months to Reach, thats 88 Months.  That means before the Covenant has to make a 8th Re-Charge would mean that Origae-6 from Planet 4 would be 11 Months per Re-Charge....  so 7 Recharges at 11 Months apart would mean that last Re-Charge may JUST get to Origae-6,  if it was 10  Months per Recharge than 7 Re-Charges then they would Need to Recharge for a 8th time 8 Months away from Origae-6, if it was 12 Months per Re-Charge then they would arrive at Origae-6 with 8 Months Charge Left (if my Math is Correct).

so 11-12 Month Charge Cycles would be a Guess, If i am wrong, then i am a bit off i would say its still 10-12 Months Per Charge.

We dont know how FAR Planet 4 is only that it is not far in the Night Sky away from Zeta 2 so if we say 40 Light Years Give or Take then the Covenant would be in about the Same Ball Park as the Nostromo as far as SPEED.

So i estimate we talking a 40-50 Light Year Per Year Speed.     So it would mean that Origae-6 is about 330 Light Years from Planet 4 +/- 35 Light Years

So from Earth we could be looking at about 340-400 Light Year Ball Park...  But this is just a Rough Guess and my Calculations could be way off LOL

I think unless there has been any Official or Covered in Books indication to what system Origae-6 is, then all we can go by really is that it is 88 Months away from Planet 4, and its like the Covenants Total Journey Time from Earth would have been 96-102 Months. (does the Origins Novel give a Date of Departure?).

I think the only thing to consider really is that indeed we are say 17.5 years from Alien and IF those Eggs are from Davids Creation then if the Process of those Eggs becoming the Ones in ALIEN happens on Planet 4 then we are left about 17.5 years to play with, if they are Evolved on LV-223 then this would surely give David a few weeks/months less.

But IF he goes to Origae-6 then he has 10 years to get them from Origae-6 to LV-426/223 which Logically means the Derelict must be on/arrive at ORIGAE-6 at some point during those 10 years.

As we could safely assume from Origae-6 to LV-223 would eat up another 7.5 years or so of that remaining 10 year period.

That DOES-NOT leave much time to FIT in the Plot of HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict considering the Ship Does-Not look like its only been there for Months!

I think i recall from somewhere that the Draft (which i have not read/found yet or bothered to) to a Earlier Alien Covenant/Crossing had Origae-6 as located about 250LY from Earth.

Taking that more into account then Xi Aurigae or 42 Aurigae could be ideal contenders for Origae-6  but so could 60 Aurigae and HD 34790

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

May-05-2019 2:25 AM

The Covenant crew awakens on December 5, 2104, a couple of weeks from Planet 4. So David probably sends the Advent message in January 2105 and he sets the course for Origae-6.

To Origae-6 and back again to the vicinity of Planet 4 would take about 15 years (with USCSS Covenant). To get from Planet 4 to LV-426 would take more than 3 years (it took 2,2 years to reach LV-223). That would make 18+ years (without any time at all on Origae-6).

David would then reach LV-426 (with a stopover at LV-223 to get a juggernaut) somewhere at the beginning of 2123. The Nostromo’s dropship sets down on LV-426 on July 3, 2122. David would, therefore, miss the party . . .

Gavin

May-05-2019 6:05 AM

@ chli,

Sorry to nitpick, but June, not July 3rd, 2122, is When the Nostromo's crew was awoken in Alien.

The problem with figuring out and applying real-world science to most science fiction is that most science fiction uses science as superficial gloss or techno-babble icing.

Take Aliens for example. Hicks at one point says that they can expect a rescue in 17 days. Which would mean that the USS Sulaco was due to be back by a set date - let's say within a week? If the Sulaco has still failed to return 3 days after its scheduled return another Colonial Marine vessel would then be dispatched and arrive at LV-426 a week after it left Earth.

That much thought is likely more than what was applied to the "17 days" inclusion of the script. The arbitrary number of 17 days was plucked from thin air to highlight the helpless nature of the predicament the marines were in. Nothing more.

Yes, we can try to add real-world science to things, but that way madness lies. And remember that we are adding real-world science to a franchise that somehow possesses artificial gravity, Faster-The-Light space travel without time dilation, and hypersleep stasis technology that slows down the aging process. 

BigDave

May-05-2019 6:49 AM

You make a Spot On Point Gavin ;)

I really have to find where i put the Origins Novel, i had it but misplaced it (not read it too), but as far as i am aware the events happened about a year before the events of the Covenant arriving at Planet 4

I have tried a few Maps and there is NOTHING really as far as Star located at RA 3h 17m 8.0s Dec -62° 37 

Closest i could come to was to Zoom on near the Reticuli System.

Marked where Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 are, the BLUE Dot is a location that Matches where David sent the Advent Message from, which is RA 3h 17m 8.0s Dec -62° 37' but there are NO Stars at this Location... The closest TWO which i have marked in RED as A and B are.

A:  USNOA2 0225-00827988  03h17m27.85s/-62°36'15.1"

B:  USNOA2 0225-00825316  03h16m52.03s/-62°36'50.7"

Both in the Constellation Reticulum  but we have to remember this is the location in the SKY and TWO objects could be close in the Sky but further away from each other than say the 5th nearest object to the Objects in Question.

So we cant work out exactly HOW far Planet 4 is, but if we consider the Re-Charge Cycles it seems they are between 10-12 Months, and the Origins Novel was set a year prior to Alien Covenant and so Planet 4 would be within about 10-12 Months Travel from Earth for the Covenant which makes the Ship in about the Same Ball Park as the Nostromo as far as Speed (Nostromo likely being a little faster).

So we can assume that for the Covenant we can say Origae-6 is about 88 Months from Planet 4, while to Planet 4 is about 10-12 Months from Earth.

David will arrive on Origae-6 about April 2112 and if he was to leave right away (which dont make sense) and head to LV-223 we can assume he would arrive there about September 2119 give or take.

This means that LEAVES us with a Period of 30-32 Months (give or take) to take into account Time David Spends on Origae-6, Time Spent around the Zeta 2 System, and then Time the Derelict is on LV-426 when the Nostromo Turns up.

It is HIGHLY likely that IF we are to assume the Path Ridley Scott sets out where David is the Creator of the Xenomorph that leads to those Eggs on the Derelict.

1) David arrives at Origae-6 about April/May 2112, there he goes about what ever business he does and what kind of a world he would Build/Create.

2) A Number of years Pass and a incoming 1/2 Human Ships turn up over a period of Short Time (Span of a Movie) then the Engineers Rock Up!

3) One of the Engineer Ships that turn up to Origae-6 will at some point leave that system and head to Zeta 2 Reticuli

4) This Ship would either have the Cargo of Davids Eggs and be heading to LV-223 but ENDS up on LV-426, or this Ship will reach LV-223 and maybe Experiment/Evolve Davids Creation and then attempt to leave LV-223 but only get as far as LV-426.

Leaving a Few Years then before the Nostromo Turns Up!

There would be about a 10 Year Period for Points 1-4 to FIT in.  And Ridley Scott indicated that from when Covenant Ends to when Alien Starts he intended another 2-3 Movies.  Thats a Hard Push!

I would not be too Concerned as i think its Highly Likely we will NOT get a Answer to those Eggs, unless any NEW Alien Movie provides any information.... because i think any Continuation to Alien Covenant would be on INDEFINITE Hold!

And by the Time they offer one, or provide a Explanation in a Movie set around or after the time of ALIEN, then i think they would do another U-TURN and have those Eggs NOT be a Creation of Davids to Please Fans who are Up in Arms over it.

I would say a High% of Fans are displeased with that Direction of David is the Creator.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

May-05-2019 11:53 PM

In order for David to make it in time to LV-426, a juggernaut must turn up (on Origae-6). On Origae-6, David will build his “Eden” with his “Queen”. There would be no point in going to LV-223 or LV-426 since they are uninhabitable. The 2000 colonists know nothing of David’s rebellion but Daniels and Tennessee do (or will figure it out) so they are dead (experimented on).

So, in order to accomplish things within the time frame, a juggernaut is needed. However, it took David and Shaw about a year to reach Planet 4 from LV-223, so how fast is the juggernaut? It would seem it’s about three times as fast as human spaceships at the time. Anyhow, it would give David some time to build an army of “wolves” (in order to destroy everything in the galaxy) before the cavalry arrives (Engineers, Colonial Marines).  :)

BigDave

May-07-2019 11:56 AM

"There would be no point in going to LV-223 or LV-426 since they are uninhabitable."

I think it all depends on WHAT is Davids Agenda.. we certainly on a Prequel Route would have to arrive at THOUSANDS of Eggs on LV-426 and at the Moment  we know David has JUST the TWO small Face Hugger Embryos... can these lead to Thousands?  On Planet 4 there are a number of Small Eggs, can these Grow?  And in that Room where those Large Eggs are it appears there are  8-11 Remaining... again can these lead to Thousands?

So the Question is HOW do those Thousands of Eggs get Created.....  Bare in Mind it cant be via Pure Coincidence that the Derelict is within the System or LV-223/426, so there must have been some Purpose for the Ship to either be heading to LV-223 or Leaving LV-223 that is connected to the Mass of Eggs...  they are either being taken in Thousands to LV-223 for Study/Re-Engineering or that a Smaller Number had been taken to LV-223 for Re-Engineering and Mass Production.

Assuming the without David's Experiments on Planet 4 there would be NO Eggs on LV-426 route.

Regarding how long it took to get to Planet 4, on one hand the Engineers seem to be able to Travel to other Galaxies and so Earth to LV-223 should be just a SHORT Hop! but then on the other hand, we have to ask WHY they use Cryo-Sleep Pods.

I think One Element that is Overlooked is that The Covenant Arrives nearly 12 Months after Dr Shaw leaves her Warning about LV-223.  We see at some point they leave LV-223 but then the Juggernaught is seen Floating Aimlessly in Space...  it would see that David had done enough to allow the Ship to leave LV-223 but he was then using the Juggernaught as a Bargaining Chip for Dr Shaw to eventually Put him Back Together again.

The Crossing shows that Dr Shaw's Hair had been Growing for what would be about 9 Months. (6-11 Months usually for that Hair Growth).  And David had said he had been on Planet 4 for about 10 years.

So i Assume that by the Time Dr Shaw was placed into Cryo-Sleep it would have been 4-16 weeks until the Juggernaught Arrived....   I certainly dont think it took a YEAR.... i think it could have taken Weeks, Certainly dont think it would take Months.

David had said he was NOT sure to Dr Shaw, because i feel is Agenda would have been to get put back together, then get Dr Shaw into Cryo-Sleep and then David is FREE to take as much time as he likes to Assess what he was to do next with NO-ONE  being able to Stop Him.

We dont have any idea of the Distance of Planet 4, it is located in the Reticuli System as far as the Point in the Sky/Space but that is NO Guarantee that Planet 4 is located about 40LY from Earth.

It appears the Covenant had taken up to a Year to get to Planet 4 from Earth, and it would have taken the Nostromo 10 Months from LV-426 to Earth, so do we assume they are of similar Speeds due to Age?  We cant be sure.

I know there was a Early Draft to Alien Covenant that was released where the Crossing was the Prologue but i have NOT read this and maybe i would have to try and locate it as maybe it can indicate some clues to the Distance of Planet 4, Origae-6 and Journey Times?

I would only assume the Juggernaught would have taken weeks 2-8 to Planet 4 but thats just a assumption, not based on much FACT, i know its unlikely it took more than 4 Months.

I would assume a Juggernaught would get from LV-223 to Earth Vastly more quicker than the Prometheus, Covenant and Nostromo...  The Sulaco took 3 weeks.. and i would assume the Engineers Ships are Faster than W-Y Technology at that Time.  And so with No Proof i would not be surprised if the Trip from LV-223 to Planet 4 took Days.....  but again there is No Proof so thats Speculative by me.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

May-08-2019 11:42 AM

Well, I suppose if David gets his queen, producing eggs in abundance wouldn’t be a problem. For every egg, a host is needed and there are 2000 sleeping colonists on USCSS Covenant so he could probably get an army of wolves even before they reach Origae-6. David says to Walter, about the colonists (and mankind), that “They don’t deserve to start again, and I’m not going to let them”.

So, why go to Origae-6 at all? It would be an interesting conclusion of the prequels if we came back to LV-223. Perhaps see what’s inside the other facilities? Some of the colonists might have survived and tries to escape somehow. The Deacon might be lurking somewhere and enter engineers and colonial marines . . .

BigDave

May-08-2019 3:12 PM

I think if you look at it from a Certain Perspective then it would come across that David would want to just Eradicate Mankind and Create is Wolf with the Queen he has yet to Perfect.

IF we assume this to be the case  then it would depend on HOW David would do this...  The Advent Viral would have been a Complete Mistake by David... a Massive Error of Ways!

He would had been more ideal for him to return to LV-223 in the Covenant,  then indeed Create some Xenomorphs/Eggs on the Covenant ship and SEND it to Origae-6 but the Problem is the Covenant could be Detected on its way to LV-223 and Intercepted maybe prior to Origae-6 (especially having sent the Advent Viral).  He should have recorded that to be Transmitted weeks after the Covenant Departs LV-223 so that it sets up a Wild Goose Chase.

While he then leaves LV-223 with a Juggernaught and Bombards Earth..... the Problem with this would be that Mankind is NOT confined to Earth, and its if he can Bombard Earth with Black Goo and make a Hasty Escape, the Juggernaught appeared to lack any Weapons Systems as far as being able to Engage and Attack other Ships (but this could be Spoon Fed into a Plot).

I think we have to work out if David has a Priority to Create/Perfect his Xenomorph killing Machines, or if he wants Mankind Destroyed, as if he wants the Latter then the Black Goo would be the Quicker Way.

Ridley Scott indicated a different Path, before we eventually reach a Path that would maybe Directly take us to the Back Door of ALIEN... but at this Moment with a Sequel on HOLD.. then what ever idea Ridley Scott may have had could well be SHELVED!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

May-08-2019 6:46 PM

Well, I suppose a fitting ending would be David leaving LV-223 in a juggernaut loaded with eggs (to wipe out mankind), gets infected (how does a synthetic get infected?) and ends up on LV-426 . . .

Ingeniero

Jul-02-2019 7:21 AM

Amazing topic chli, thank you for posting.

 

Who created the Xenomorph?

The novel tried answer this question by citing an example facehugger and ovomorph found by David, shown for a moment when Captain Oram walked by it.  

Critters5 cited a video that mentions this here. Thank you Critters5.

A filtered screenshot of the moment the Supreme Example is shown to Oram, below.

The way this scene was set up in Alien: Covenant is a little similar to the scene in Prometheus where Milburn's "dunce" label is applied after trying to warm up to the black goo soaked hammerpede.

Why does Oram follow David?

In the novel, David sets Oram's nerves at ease a little by tossing an inert, petrified egg sac opposed to a viable, active one.  In the "first alien" deleted scene from Prometheus, Millburn captures a small, slow moving creature.  This sets Millburn up with the over-confidence seen when greeting the hammerpede with a smile.

Logically, why would Oram follow David anywhere after seeing a floating (but still beautiful) Rosenthal head?  

David appealed to Oram's sense of wonder in regards to science.

Captain Oram was Chief Science Officer of the Covenant mission before the flare incident (Dr. Shaw was also Chief Science Officer of the Prometheus mission).  Oram followed David down the steps because David convinced him he was safe after tossing him an egg sac and Oram instinctively caught it. 

David explained to the Captain that he could have easily thrown a viable egg for Oram to catch with active mutagen but did not.  Oram bought it. 

 

David Found A Supreme Example of the Facehugger and Ovomorph

"Challenged but still wary, Oram came forward. Gripping his rifle even more tightly and prepared to raise it at the slightest untoward movement from either the object or the synthetic to he leaned over to peer into the now gaping vase-like specimen the interior revealed a motionless creature, all fingerlike appendages and flattened body, with a muscular tail coiled beneath it as if it was ready to spring outward.

It did not move.

It was dead, as dead in preserved as David had promised. As dead as the egg sac the synthetic had tossed to him. Oram stepped back from the specimen, which seemed pregnant with hideous potential.

The synthetic's reaction was notably different. "Quite magnificent don’t you think?"

Quite something, that’s for sure, Oram muttered. He continued to gaze at the egg thing and its contents. As patiently lifeless as it was, it still manage to send a quiver of fear through here.

"Oh captain." David shake his head sadly. "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris."

"Would that I could create something so perfect in its function, he added. I try, but I don’t have thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. I only have my parable programming on which to draw. That, and 10 years of earnest effort on my own behalf. I have learned only a little, yet a soldier on, hoping all ways to achieve something like this, always striving to do better, to improve. That’s what the engineers did, I suppose.That is what someone playing God should do."

Alien: Covenant novelization page 243.

BigDave

Jul-03-2019 6:33 AM

I think it still boils down to if we take the NOVEL as having more Weight, than the Directors Comments.

without seeing the Draft that Alan Dean Foster had to work with, we cant really be sure.  Maybe i have to dig up a Interview with ADF... i am sure he mentioned that this Scene is something he had ADDED.

If we assume this was correct, then we have to ASK where did David discover the Egg... if he Discovered it on Planet 4, its indicated from the Novel (as far as i am aware) that David encountered a Specimen he had to Euthanize.

We then have to ASK how many had he detected, and HOW Foolish are the Engineers to keep a Specimen on their Homeworld?  Without Safety Precautions.

It depends on HOW we interpret our Engineers, i think RS had plans to show these beings have much more about them than Creating/Sacrificing themselves for the Procreation of the Xenomorph...  RS seems to want to cover the Broader Creation and Gardeners of Space.

If the Engineers Main Agenda is to Procreate Species like the Xenomorph, then Discovering a Egg on Planet 4 would NOT seem too out of Place

But i am NOT drawn to these beings using Planet 4 and the Cathedral as a Sacrificial Place to Procreate such Horrors!

For me i am drawn more to the Creation of Worlds and Species for other reasons as the PRIME Agenda of the Engineers.  I am actually more drawn to conclude the Juggernaughts are just more ADVANCED Seeding Ships and NOT any WARSHIP!

And so the Egg on Planet 4 prior to David's Arrival seems out of Place...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-03-2019 6:46 AM

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/06/27/interview-alan-dean-foster-alien-covenant-novel-discussion-avpgalaxy-podcast-51/

Thats a Interview with Alan Dean Foster.... i get the impression the "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris." Scene was NOT part of the Draft and ADF added it as he felt this is what would improve and flesh out the Story.

However it seems FOX was happy for him to add this to the Novel.

So the Debate Continues....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-21-2019 10:28 PM

Even if we accept that David creates the xenomorph that the crew of the Nostromo encounter, we still have the issue of the Derelict (filled with thousands or millions of eggs and the space jockey looking fossilized).

It's 18 years between the disaster on Planet 4 and Captain Dallas, Kane, and Lambert finding the Derelict. In this time David has to traverse long distances of space, creating a queen, and the Derelict ending up on LV-426 . . .

ignorantGuy

Jul-21-2019 10:41 PM

chli Is it even correct to assume that there exists a queen before the one in Aliens. It might as well be the first one.

chli

Jul-21-2019 11:22 PM

IgnorantGuy

Well, as I see it, it depends on two things (at least):

The first is what David means by saying that he will create a queen out of Daniels?

The second thing is that there seem to be millions of eggs in the cargo hold of the Derelict. David could perhaps create 2000 eggs from the colonists on the Covenant?

ignorantGuy

Jul-21-2019 11:54 PM

chli He says he found his Queen, but I think it is a reference to the queen of Bathsheba, the desire for whom marks the Downfall of the Biblical king David. It might be possible that Daniels will birth something, but I don't thinl she will be made into a Cameron Queeen. 

chli

Jul-22-2019 12:34 AM

IgnorantGuy

David says: "But I've still one thing left to perfect", "My queen" (looking at Daniels).

David wanted to make Shaw into his "queen" as well, keeping her alive but mutated and experimented upon. Perhaps he used the eggs produced monthly by her (together with the pathogen) to make the xenomorph eggs?

There were perhaps 7 eggs in the basement which would then mean that Shaw was alive for about 7 months . . .

BigDave

Jul-22-2019 8:06 AM

"we still have the issue of the Derelict (filled with thousands or millions of eggs and the space jockey looking fossilized)."

Absolutely as of the Time David had Tucked Daniels into BED so to speak we are 17.5 Years away from when the Nostromo Crew Discover the Derelict.

The Space Jockey/Derelict look like they had been there for MUCH longer than that, and indeed it was ORIGINALLY intended to had been there for Thousands of Years.

But ALAS things Change.... but they can also Change again... who knows IF we will see Disney offer a Explanation to the Derelict and IF they would make a U-Turn to Please Fans?

Regarding the Perfection of his Queen, for him to make this Statement he must feel PLEASED with his Xenomorph he just needs to Perfect a way to Procreate them.

Some Fans (usually on other sites) think this does mean we would be seeing the Creation of the Xenomorph Queen and this would explain the Many Thousands of Eggs.

Because WELL we see David has only TWO Face Huggers and 3000+ Good Souls.... so thats not going to be Many Thousands of Eggs and HOW does he Change those Colonist and Embryo's into Thousands of Eggs?

If we go by the ALIEN Franchise... we could assume.

*EGG MORPH but then its a case of if we would see TWO Xenomorphs going around and Egg Morphing Thousands of Humans...

*QUEEN this is more Easier, we could see someone Birth a Queen, why maybe the Space Jockey Births the Queen and lays all those Eggs... SIMPLE!

But i dont think Ridley Scott would be going the James Cameron Route!

David does appear to have a Interest in Daniels, he wants to do to Daniels what he did with Dr Shaw... which does-not just mean he wants to try an Kiss/Have Sex!

Its indicated that he required Dr Shaw to be able to achieve the Results that he had with his Xenomorphs. This could lead to some Speculations to HOW.

Some of David's Drawings could show us what he had done or attempted/had planned.

1) Infected Dr Shaw with one of his Xenomorphs, then Removed the Organism and Repeat... BUT then how does this explain the EGGS?

2) Used Dr Shaws Reproductive System/Egg Cells to Produce the Eggs.

3) Evolve Dr Shaw into a Hybrid to then Create the Eggs.

The Closest we saw to a XENOMORPH in Prometheus came from Dr Shaw, by Virtue of her Unnatural Child the Trilobite (a kind of Face Hugger).

So a GOOD Starting point for anyone Interested in Replicating a Deacon would be the Knowledge that either the Black Goo infects a Egg Cell or a Infected Sperm infects a Egg Cell.

Replicating this would be a Good Starting Point, but then you could attempt to Engineer/Evolve the Offspring, we also see how the Neomorph Procreated via the Spores and so David had likely created a Hybrid Neomorph and Deacon and Experimented Numerous Times to get the Xenomorph..   ONCE achieved he could maybe with the Black Goo Break this Organisms DNA down and apply this to the EGG CELLS to create the Eggs.

If this is kind of what happened, then David's comments would imply the Lengthy Process was Tedious and he needed to find a more Perfect Method.

so if Infecting a Humans Egg Cells to Produce Xenomorph Eggs was Tedious.  Then maybe he could Ponder what happens if you have a Human Hybrid instead?

So that the Female is Part Xenomorph and would Pass on Traits to the Egg Cells, maybe if the Procreation Traits of the Organism are more Prominent than a Humans then the Egg Cells could automatically become Xenomorph Eggs instead.  Which would be a Less Tedious method to obtain Eggs.

So maybe the above is some idea of the Queen that David wishes to Perfect and what FATE lies ahead for Daniels?

Of course the Lazy Route would be that David Engineers a Face Hugger to Produce a Traditional Queen, but i just DONT think this is something that Ridley Scott would have shown us.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Jul-22-2019 9:30 AM

BigDave But David never saw the mature trilobite, only as a incentive thing in the womb using an ultrasound machine. He has never seen the deacon. He had only seen the neomorph which does not involve nothing sexual. 

"more Perfect Method", if David would hear you, he would surely snap your neck.

BigDave

Jul-22-2019 4:13 PM

Certainly this is NOT something i had overlooked, we have witnessed the Deacon but David has NOT..

However he had Witnessed that Dr Shaw who could not Bare Child had became Pregnant per-say with a None Traditional Fetus. David would likely be Curious to what would have became of Dr Shaws Child. We have to assume he could make out more from LV-223 than the Viewer Could....

And so cant rule out him wishing to Retry the Experiment that he had done on LV-223 but be around to see the Results.

Indeed he had witnessed the Neomorph which was created NOT via any Sexual Intercourse...  But what we could also Ponder is that does David know for 100% what caused Dr Shaw's Trilobite?

If he was unsure he could maybe want to Discover what caused her to be able to Give Birth (Gestate) such a Creature.

*Was it a case of Infected Sperm, Fertilized one of her Egg Cells?

*Had Holloway only been the means to Transfer the Pathogen (maybe Eye-Worms) to Dr Shaw and THIS is what infected her Egg Cell?

*Or would these merely had been passed on as above but only Needed a Womb to Gestate and so NONE of her Egg Cells are involved?

Those are the 3 most likely Scenarios to HOW she came to grow the Trilobite inside of her.  I think its ok to ask the Question of IF our David really knows what caused it.  Or IF-NOT then would he maybe want to try and Replicate it?

Its all speculation but if you was in David's shoes and was willing to Experiment with the Neomorph and Black Goo, then we cant rule out him wishing to see what this stuff does to a Female Productive System.

""more Perfect Method", if David would hear you, he would surely snap your neck."

You certainly would not put that past him... i dont think he is the Type to Make and Keep Friends ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-23-2019 1:26 AM

I think we can rule out egg morphing since the route David has taken is the creation of his perfect queen (of Daniels). We saw in AC that David eventually managed to create xenomorph eggs by using Shaw’s body. It seems that he kept her alive but transformed. In “Advent” it seems that he plucks eggs from her body which is mixed with the pathogen (and perhaps neomorph DNA) eventually resulting in xeno-eggs (waiting for a host).

A female body can produce 12 eggs per year but perhaps David can speed up the process? Furthermore, half of the colonists are women (about 1000) . . . A human hybrid, as you propose BigDave is of course also possible. “She” would then produce the xeno-eggs directly (cesarean because of the size?) but still only 12 per year?

As for Holloway’s transmission of the “xeno-traits” to Shaw (her egg), I think it seems likely that Holloway’s body (his cells) is mutated, even his gametes.

BigDave

Jul-23-2019 9:20 AM

Certainty and thats WHY i mentioned the Deacon being a Good Starting point, while David did-not see the End Result.

If we take this Scenario of David being interested in WHY and WHAT was happening to Dr Shaw, then if the GOO was needed to Infect Sperm Cells or even if the GOO just needed to be applied to Egg Cells, you could certainly consider David would like to try such Experiments.

The Neomorph was a Very Rapid Gestation, something to have little Control Over.

The Deacon Infection is different, in that it appears to be LIKELY a infection/evolution of a Human Egg Cell.  What we also saw is that even though Dr Shaw had Terminated the Birth via C-Section the Trilobite had continued to Grow/Survive.

So if we Speculate here, and imagine that David found out HOW/WHY our Dr Shaw had been Impregnated with the Trilobite Fetus (David would have known it was NOT Human).  Then in Theory he could infect her or a Female and then Surgically Remove the Fetus at a Earlier Stage.  If he found a way to Store/Contain them then he could OBTAIN a Trilobite or Similar a Number of Times.

Back to the Topic of the Eggs, it is likely that David had used Dr Shaws Egg Cells to Produce the Xenomorph Eggs... which would mean that there is a LIMIT to how often and how many he could obtain.

And so like the Creation of the Trilobite there are Limits as far as how often you could produce such things... Using ONE Host/Egg Donor.

"“She” would then produce the xeno-eggs directly (cesarean because of the size?) but still only 12 per year?"

I think when we consider a Hybrid we cant rule out how many Traits the Black Goo would Evolve... or Xenomorph DNA would Evolve... if the objective of the Species Created would be Procreate then its likely that Dr Shaw's method of Procreation could be Evolved.

So who knows HOW often and HOW many Eggs a Hybrid could Produce....

There was some SMALL Eggs in Davids Workshop, he also had obtained some SMALL Face Huggers.  So maybe the Eggs obtained are NOT so Large but GROW.

So we could Speculate maybe a Hybrid would Produce Smaller Eggs that can be extracted or maybe even LAID?

I have done a Edit of some of the Artwork.

If something like this is Possible, we can only imagine how many Eggs could be Laid, Certainly more Frequent than a Human Reproductive System  and so something like this Created by David would indeed be a way of Perfecting his Queen.

EDIT:

A Female Human has Thousands of Eggs, but only Ovulate about 12 a Year, so we could consider that a Hybrid with a Hybrid Reproductive Egg Laying Cycle could Ovulate MUCH more than that, and maybe even Utilize most of the Eggs the Female has (Many Thousands).

I would certainly be interested in seeing such a Hybrid in Future.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-23-2019 9:49 AM

In continuation...

Ridley Scott has made some interesting comments about the Xenomorph in regards to the Future, he had claimed the Xenomorph has YET to Evolve a bit more before we get to ALIEN.

He had said that the NEXT Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph but what KIND of a World that David would Create.

Now it depends on HOW you read into that, because maybe if a Movie just had NEOMORPHS would it Technically NOT be about the Xenomorph?

He said it would be about AI, and now we cant conclude this means ROBOTS... a AI simply means a Artificial Creation that has some Intelligence, and so a Xenomorph and Neomorph could be Considered as such.

He also said that there was ONLY so much you can do with HIM (assume Xenomorph) but you can EVOLVE him.

Most Recently he talked about the Xenomorph by saying that you could explore different ways to Evolve it, and explore different ways of Procreation.

So maybe on our ROUTE to ALIEN... we can hold some hope for seeing Various Hybrids and Forms of Procreation.

If the ENGINEERS return, and we know they are a Species who take a Great Interest in Genetic Engineering and Evolving Species, and at some point some of them had taken a Great Interest in Organisms that Predate the Deacon and lead to the Deacon.

Then there is the Potential that IF we see David go on to Create Various Hybrids... that maybe the Engineers could take a INTEREST in these and decide to TAKE some of Davids work and EVOLVE it themselves..

Off to LV-223 maybe they go to Experiment with David's Creations.... to the SPACE JOCKEYS...... HUBRIS!

We have to REMEMBER that we are 2-3 Movies away from ALIEN as far as RS has his plans... i see NO RUSH to please Fans to go about with Xenomorphs and Cameron's Queens.

As long as Fans see something ALIENY and know we are on the ROUTE to seeing Xenomorphs down the Line i think that should please most Fans.

A Plot that ENDS with maybe the Engineers or their Creators FOLLY at trying to Obtain and Evolve David's Experiments could be the IDEAL way to Rescue the Origins of the Xenomorph.

so someone ELSE plays the Final Roles in the Evolution to what we had in ALIEN.  (thus David is the Middle Man).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-24-2019 12:18 PM

BigDave

I would say that there is a difference between biological (organic life) and synthetic. AI is, therefore, simply artificial. The neomorph and the xenomorph are artificial if, from the beginning, they are made in a lab from non-living substances. If, however, they originate from a living creature (DNA) then life itself is not artificial. Ju might, of course, blend these things (organic and non-organic) but then you have "life" as a starting point. Is David really living?

As for a connecting movie to Alien, it seems a bit weird if the Engineers start developing the pathogen and the xeno-traits, David continues it, and then the Engineers picks up the baton again.

How about some people from W-Y and some marines come to a destroyed and desolate planet. In a ruin, they find a recording from David. In it, he explains what has happened after they left Planet 4. He explains how everything he's dreamed of has gone up in smoke (literally). Engineers have blown up everything (nothing is left) and left that part of the galaxy. Before the end, David realizes his folly.

But, in a flashback scene (2000 years back in time on LV-223) we see an Engineer running towards a juggernaut, sets off, but eventually crash lands on LV-426 . . .

BigDave

Jul-24-2019 3:41 PM

I think that to a degree yes the Neomorph is a By-Product of a A.I and maybe that does-not mean its a A.I.

The Xenomorph regardless if we look at the David Created it route, or the only other Evidence in the Franchise that covers the Origins a bit more (Alien Engineers).  Then the indication on Both Accounts is the Xenomorph is a Specifically Engineered Organism and so a kind of A.I

I think it depends on HOW you look at A.I as for the most part its associated with giving something a Artificial Intelligence as in allowing the creation of something that can THINK/PROCESS like a Human but Simulated and thus is connected with Computing/Programing and Software and not the Nuts and Bolts of the Machine, but what can make it become Intelligent and Function with Little or No Input from the Creator/User.

In this Context then the only way a Organic Life-Form can be considered A.I is if it has artificially been Modified/Engineered to have a Intelligence that is closer to a Human than what the Organism was Naturally.  

In this Context then Genetically Modifying a Apes Brain so that it becomes Vastly more Intelligent could be considered a A.I but it would be a more GREY area if we take a Human and Engineer some Ape Genomes/Traits to make the Human more Agile/Stronger because well if the Intelligence is the same as a None Ape Engineered Human then they would not be a A.I in this case.

It really is down to HOW you look at A.I for the most part it is Considered the attempt to Create a Artificial Brain or a Computer that can operate closely to a Brain.

Ridley Scott seems to suggest that David and Replicants are only different because mainly ONE is Synthetic and the other Organic... but both A.I as far as he is concerned. 

Regarding the connection to ALIEN...

This has been debated over and over, indeed the Original Idea was that the Xenomorph was NOT a Creation by David and the U-Turn/Curveball is something that in Hindsight may have been a Bad Call!

so its a case of do we ACCEPT this.... do those who will eventually give us the Answers Accept it, despite the Dislike by most Fans?

Or do we try and think of a way to Fix It?

The theory i put forwards makes sense to me, i understand it may not for others... it works for me because of the Themes at Play, Genetic Engineering. If we look at Genetic Engineering and Enhancing and look at WHY would anyone do this... usually you would find its to Enhance/Improve and Perfect something to Speed Up/Cheat Evolution.  I think the whole Space Gardeners and Engineers plot does show us a Species who go around Engineering Various Organisms.

Then if we look at the Experiments on LV-223 we could assume the Engineers had been experimenting with a all manner of related Organisms, trying to Perfect Something just as David was doing on Planet 4.

If we assume this was the case with some Engineers, then if they look at the Deacon they created, and then they saw what David had achieved with the Black Goo, they could be INTERESTED in what he has done and seen Great Potential in this.   So they decide to Evolve it Further.

I think that would Work/Fit for some it means that David still had a role in the Xenomorph and they Clutch at Straws that its still a Ancient Organism thats on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

Rightly so too, because thats what the Impression was, and the Original Intention..

The other FIX is they can come up with another way to show the Xenomorph was on LV-426 for Thousands of Years...   Then maybe they have to explain WHAT it was that David had done.  For this they maybe have to indicate to us WHY it is David had decided to and managed to Create Something Similar?  Where did he get the Eggs or was he just Following a OLD Recipe Book to Re-create the Xenomorph?

Some Fans use Evidence from the Novel to back this up, but alas it appears those are LINES that ADF had added. We could go this route.... but i think its SILLY to have the Engineers keeping something like  a Egg on Planet 4, more so to then USE them to Sacrifice Engineers/Humans on Planet 4 (as some Speculate).

A way to FIX it if we go for this route has to be via David and some dialog where he says he had taken the Engineers Xenomorph and Perfected it... which then means we have to be shown that David's version is a Improvement but this would NOT please Fans either.

How David managed to Perfect it as far as from what source can be left Unanswered and Ambiguous.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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