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The Bioweapon on LV-223

The Bioweapon on LV-223

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chli

Dec-15-2019 8:37 AM

After having watched all the films once again, here’s my conclusion on how to make some sense (coherence) of all the films about the Alien. One principle I have used is Occam’s Razor (the simplest thesis, without gods, myths or symbolism).

To me, an important background to Prometheus is biological warfare on Earth (Film sometimes reflects reality). During the Sino-Japanese War (1939-1945), there was a gruesome facility for biological warfare in Manchuria where experiments were made on living human prisoners. Plague, cholera, smallpox and other deceases were tested (and other horrible things). Over 3000 prisoners were killed. The name of the instalment was Unit 731. In 1979, there was an outbreak of anthrax spores from a military facility in Sverdlovsk, Russia. About 100 people were killed.

These are examples of experiments that have been made on human beings and on an outbreak leading to deaths. In Prometheus, Janek tells miss Vickers about an outbreak of some kind of biological weapon which he had witnessed during his military service (We also have Shaw’s father’s death from ebola).

On LV-223, the Engineers built a military instalment in order to create a biological weapon (for mass destruction). Creating worlds with life is part of their experiments and the bioweapon is for both creation and destruction (destruction of the ones they’re not satisfied with). What they finally came up with was chemical A0-3959X.91-15 - the mutagenic pathogen (the black goo). In the mural, we see the result of experiments made on Hominidae (Engineers/humans) test subjects. The Deacon is a kind of neomorph and under it, we have the life cycle of the xenomorph: eggs, chestbursters etc. The development resembles that of David’s experiments.

The mutagenic pathogen is highly unstable, chaotic in its nature, leading to an outbreak on LV-223 killing all Engineers (except one). 2000 years later, the whole thing repeats itself when the Prometheus expedition arrives.

On Planet 4, David unleashes the pathogen on the homeworld of the Engineers killing all and mutating indigenous fungi into creating mutating (neomorph) spores. David experiments with the pathogen, indigenous lifeforms and Shaw creating some xenomorph eggs. On the Covenant, David continues his experiments and creates a Queen (out of Daniels). David sends information about the xenomorph to W-Y. Mother redirects the Nostromo to LV-426 because W-Y wants the organism for the weapons division (biological warfare). The alien creature wipes out the crew on the Nostromo except Ripley.

On LV-426, the colony at Hadley’s Hope is eradicated by the biological weapon (the xenomorph) after W-Y (Burke) has instructed them to check out the Derelict. We learn that an alien Queen lays the eggs. On Fiorina 161, we learn that the xenomorph can grow inside a dead host. It also takes on traits from its host, in this case from an ox and moves on four legs. We also learn that a queen can be bred. Ripley kills the queen by committing suicide. 200 years later, Ripley is resurrected by cloning her DNA from a blood sample from Fiorina 161. Her DNA is mutated and contains xenomorph traits and information to produce a queen embryo. The new queen doesn’t lay a large number of eggs but has a womb instead.

Conclusion

  • The xenomorph (and all its variants) is the result of the bioweapon - the mutagenic pathogen. It’s not a natural species.
  • The amount of pathogen is important for the outcome (sacrificial Engineer, Fifield, Holloway) as is the way it infects the host (inhaling, ingestion etc).
  • The ovomorphs are produced by xenomorph Queens (which are mutated Hominidae females). The first Queen was probably once Daniels.
  • No one really created the xenomorph - the variants are the result of the mutagenic pathogen changing the hosts DNA (different results depending on the amount of pathogen and the host). The xenomorph is a mutated human/Engineer.
  • The mural depicts experiments with the mutagenic pathogen on Hominidae (Engineers/humans).

47 Responses to The Bioweapon on LV-223

MonsterZero

Dec-15-2019 12:21 PM

Like your conclusion. Daniels as the first Queen is cool.

 

Xenomorphs seem to me a BAD side effect. I want my enemies dead(planet 4 engineers style)! I don't want to have to clean up a nest of xenomorphs after they killed my foes.

Maybe we can engineer a limited xenomorph life span?

Life span of the xeno should be a top priority of the weapons division.   (infest the enemies base...then wait a month...everything is dead...begin the party)

 

"Millions of carcasses littered LV-223. The stench was awful. The rotting mounds of flesh wasn't the real problem though....It was the maggots...Billions of the little suckers. Deacons came and went, couple of weeks tops...Maggots came and stayed. Got into everything...including our water supply. Real plague stuff."

S.M

Dec-15-2019 7:20 PM

I don't buy that Daniels would be mutated into a Queen - but if she were fertile (unlike Shaw) she could become a more viable test subject for David that leads to a Queen.

Gavin

Dec-15-2019 10:07 PM

A few amendments I would make to your conclusion chli are...

#1 - The Mutagenic Pathogen is biomechanical in nature, being composed of both organic matter (viral cells) and inorganic matter (Nano AI).

#2 - Born Xenomorphs are bio-mechanically reconstructed/mutated clones of their hosts (Big Chap had a human skull, and the Runner had digitigrade hind legs (and no dorsal appendages).

#3 - Leave out the Daniels part, its pure speculation, and contradicts the fact that the mural on LV-223 references the Xenomorphs life cycle, meaning (and putting it bluntly) that David didn't create shit. 

ignorantGuy

Dec-16-2019 5:14 AM

Gavin Just small corrections:

1. Viruses are not cells. They are strings of DNA or RNA protected by a protein capsule (capsid) and coated by a layer of lipids to confuse the host. They drift around until they attach themselves to cells. We know that the goop does not reproduce itself in a host but mutates it. So by no definition is it a virus.

2. The Xenomorph from Covenant has "digitigrade" hind legs, but also dorsal spikes yet it is spawned from a human.

But that again it does not of these matter.

chli

Dec-16-2019 5:37 AM

MonsterZero

I’m thinking that the xenomorph would wipe out all fauna so the food supply would run out. It would eventually starve to death?

S.M.

Well, who knows what Holloway and Fifield would have become eventually?

Gavin

I agree with #1 and #2 but I wouldn’t say that #3 is pure speculation. David says that he will do to her what he did to Shaw and make her his Queen and that “this is going to change everything”.

David might have had a hand in the development of the xeno-variant we see in Alien, but the mutagenic pathogen alone (and a host) can create xeno-variants (the Deacon e.g.).

S.M

Dec-16-2019 4:13 PM

If we go by Ridley's musings Holloway and Fifield wouldn't have become anything.  They're heads would've exploded like the re-animated Engineer.

Or possibly like the Engineers on Planet 4.

BigDave

Dec-16-2019 4:18 PM

This is going to be one of those Debates where its about Personal Opinion and Interpretation.   And to be fair this can arise from Inconsistency and those working on the Movies constantly Changing how things are shown and changing how they view certain things as time goes on.

First of all Chli i think you are right to point out the Experiments and Bio-Logical Warfare and certainly its No Accident that Janek mentioned about the Lab that he had to BLOW-UP because someone Split something and Dr Shaw when she talks about the Outbreak and how she had seen something similar before (Ebola), as these are added to HELP drive us to what had happened on LV-223

But the Flip Side is you could argue these are merely those Characters Assumptions... of which the same can also be said about Kane and Dallas as far as their Assumptions with the Space Jockey and Cargo Hold.

Certainly as of Prometheus there was a Connection between what at the VERY LEAST was in those URNS and the Xenomorph and also the Mutations/Monsters we saw in Prometheus.

It was just NEVER really explained what the Connection was, not in a Spoon Fed/No Shadow of Doubt Way.

But there was a Connection....  Ridley Scott did his best to explain it by Suggesting that something in the Cargo Hold had Evolved and GOT to the Space Jockey.... again while that may seem like he is indicating the Derelict was NOT supposed to be Transporting Eggs... it is again Vague and not Spoon Fed in what he said.

The MURAL does-not really provide any Evidence to suggest the Xenomorph at all, it was merely a Easter Egg of sorts and Tribute to HR Giger, but those who worked on it did say it was the Deacon that was depicted. 

The Mural thus indicates that either  (1) The Organism was a Older Original Deacon that lead to Various Experiments, including variations of Face Hugger. (2) that it indicates that Various Experiments/Face Huggers had eventually lead to what we see depicted in the Mural.

But as the Mural is something that is Very Abstract and can be Interpreted in a number of Different Ways.

It actually shows that these things that do-not give any Concrete Answers, allows people to come up with various Interpretations and Theories that lead to debates, where we cant really say anyone is 100% Right or Wrong and so the MYSTERY remained.

Alien Covenant then came along and it kind of Muddied the Waters a little, on ONE HAND it offered more of a insight into the Pathogen/Mutagen but on the other it became more of a McGuffin well certainly reveled something about it that allows for them to allow the GOO to do what ever they WANT without any real further Explanations... as its a Radical Form of A.I.

This however does-not mean we conclude its like a Machine or Mechanical in any way, as A.I can be expanded beyond something that is a MACHINE or Program that Runs a Machine.

The Radical A.I thus likely implies the GOO is either (or both) a Intelligent Virus/Pathogen or a Programmable Virus/Pathogen.

The idea that Spaights had given for his Alien Engineers/Genesis seemed to be more SIMPLE and is what Prometheus appeared to show (in part).

I do think that Fundamentally though Chli you have grasped what the Pathogen and Connection is.

I will add my Interpretation to these though.

  • The xenomorph (and all its variants) is the result of the bioweapon - the mutagenic pathogen. It’s not a natural species.

I have to agree as far as the Xenomorph the intention was it was a Engineered Organism.

  • The amount of pathogen is important for the outcome (sacrificial Engineer, Fifield, Holloway) as is the way it infects the host (inhaling, ingestion etc).

To a degree YES, but looking at Alien Covenant and the Radical A.I then we could Speculate the Substance either can be Programed to Infect in Certain Ways, or it has its own Intelligence and decides HOW it chooses to Infect a Target.

  • The ovomorphs are produced by xenomorph Queens (which are mutated Hominidae females). The first Queen was probably once Daniels.

If we go/accept that prior to Alien Covenant the Xenomorph did-not Exist, then maybe Daniels or another Human or even some Hybrid that David creates could lead to a Evolution of the Alien Covenant Xenomorph, but i think there are quite a FEW layers of Evolution to go until we reach the BEAST in ALIEN and its likely the Queen in ALIENS is either a Genetically Altered Xenomorph Experiment or a Natural Evolution of the Organism (prior Xenomorph).

  • No one really created the xenomorph - the variants are the result of the mutagenic pathogen changing the hosts DNA (different results depending on the amount of pathogen and the host). The xenomorph is a mutated human/Engineer.

This is open to debate, especially if we consider Alien Covenant, which would indicate the Black Goo acted as a Genetic Creation/Hybridization Tool, it is likely the Xenomorph is a Amalgamation of similar Results to Dr Shaw and her Deacon, the Neomorphs and the Black Goo to Splice/Merge various Traits of Various Organisms with the Deacon/Neomorph until the result is the Ovomorph. (throwing out Alien Covenant, then i would be drawn to conclude the Pathogen in those URNS had been obtained by something Related to the Xenomorph a Organism that was the Progenitor to the Various Experiments including the Deacon, and Xenomorph.  You have to wonder is the Fresco Creature that Progenitor?

  • The mural depicts experiments with the mutagenic pathogen on Hominidae (Engineers/humans).

Certainly as i mentioned earlier, it seems to imply that the Organism (Deacon?) in the Mural was either something that was a Result of Trial and Error with Various Experiments and Forms of Face Hugger, or that this Deacon was used to further Create Various Forms of other Face Hugger.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-16-2019 4:56 PM

Regarding the Digitigrade Hind Legs 

The First Time we saw this was ALIENS with the Queen, the Queen being a Puppet and NOT a Man a Suit.

With Alien Resurrection it seemed the Intention was the same (Digitigrade Hind Legs ) and the CGI shots they had such Hind Legs just not as Bent as the Queen.  However the Man-In-Suit shots the Legs were NOT Digitigrade

Flash Forwards to Alien Isolation and we have the Xenomorph that has Digitigrade Hind Legs.  And so it could be likely that they would be shown as such in Future.... Special Effects Budget/Technology dependent.

Regarding Daniels and the Queen....

Who knows what the Plan was at the Time as things could Change, i think if Alien Covenant was a HIT and/or FOX had Green Lit the Sequel to go into Production in 2018/2019 then i feel that maybe Daniels would have been involved in Davids Experiments to Further Obtain more EGGS!

But i would NOT have expected her to had simply been infected by a Face Hugger or Pathogen that then Spawns a Queen Chest Buster..... but if this was the Route i would not think it would be QUITE the same as in ALIENS.

I would have assumed that David would have made her a Queen in the following ways.

1) She would be Incapacitated while David Extracts her Egg Cells and Experiments/Creates Ovomorphs from her, but then in what way would this be a Perfection over Dr Shaw? Unless a Fertile Female would offer more Yield?   How would she be Incapacitated? that could be Interesting...

2) She is evolved into a Hybrid that then would Produce Eggs

I think we can look at Davids other Comments on how he wanted to offer Dr Shaw a chance to Create a New Eden and Evolve her, but she rejected... and then look at some of the Concept Work/Art that Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett had done (Davids Drawings of Dr Shaw) i think these were Plans/Ideas of his that he could likely want to TRY OUT on Daniels.

"Well, who knows what Holloway and Fifield would have become eventually?"

Who knows... Ridley Scott did say that the same thing would happen to them as the Dead Engineers....

Fifield seemed to Mutated into a Toxic Avenger but other Concepts he was to become a Hybrid.... looking at Fiifeld and the Engineers, i think we could Speculate that some Victims would Mutate into Aggressive Versions of themselves, their Heads would SWELL and then Explode.... the Infected Organism then breaks down...

Holloway was infected differently, it could be a Smaller Exposure meant his Mutation/Degradation was Slower and it appeared he was more like the Sacrificial Engineer but at a Slower Rate... but then he could have been in the Process of being the same as Fifield at a Slower Rate.

The Interesting thing was the EYE-WORM and these Props (never used)

When looking at this and Fifield... then this Concept comes to MIND.

So maybe this are a Indication of what was Happening to Holloway and Fifield?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Dec-16-2019 9:36 PM

S.M.

The deleted scene of Fifield with an elongated head suggests that he was mutating into a xenomorph. Still, the scene which made it into the movie showed a mutated Fifield with enhanced strength and resilience and a high amount of aggression attacking every living thing in sight.

BigDave

A.I. is a programme and you could argue that DNA is as well so the difference between organic and synthetic isn’t, perhaps, crystal clear? What the mutagenic pathogen does is that it mutates its victims, rewrites the DNA and change them into aggressive monsters, killing everything in sight (a perfect biological weapon).

Holloway swallowed a tiny drop of the pathogen whereas the sacrificial Engineer and the Engineers on Planet 4 were exposed to large quantities. I suppose that if hosts are subjected to large doses, they just break down?

As for the evolution of a Queen, evolution normally takes millions of years (the mutagenic pathogen probably accelerates this, though). From AC to Alien it’s about 17 years and the action in Aliens 57 years after that. The multitude of eggs that Kane encounters in the cargo hold/cave suggests, perhaps, that a Queen has already been playing?

As for David’s tinkering with biological experiments, there are hybridizations of different lifeforms and mutations combined with the pathogen, but the thing is that you get a xeno-like creature even without that. We have the Deacon and the neomorph as well as the hammerpedes and Fifield (especially the deleted scene) turning into an aggressive, xeno-like monster.

dk

Dec-16-2019 11:09 PM

It's tough to argue that chli is wrong.

BigDave

Dec-17-2019 5:38 AM

Certainly Chli

What we have to remember is so much gets changed as they go on, INDEED the Earlier Drafts and Concepts had shown Fifield to be more of a Xenomorph Hybrid, had they kept some of these the Connection would have been more easier to Understand.  But some of the Concepts he looked more like the END PRODUCT that we had...

It was easier to see the Connection with the Hammerpedes and Trilobite (Deacon) and so the Holloway and Fifield infections seemed to look a little odd... we could speculate that the GOO was Programed to effect Human Genome in a Different way.  Dr Shaws Baby being different because it infected a Egg Cell and not a Fully Formed Humanoid.

The Engineers we see Various Holes in their Suits, some suits you can clearly see are HOLLOW!  When we look at what Dr Shaw had indicated about a Infection/Outbreak and that she seen similar before (Ebola) and the Head that Exploded.... the Body was Hollow... so we could speculate the Big Head Room for some reason had a Environment that Prevented the Pathogen from doing what it does.... Hence the Head was Preserved.... maybe this explains why the Engineers were trying to get to that Room.

So we can Speculate that they had been infected to a point that there Bodies would start to either Break Down like the Sacrificial Engineer, or that they would Mutate like Fifield before eventually then breaking down like the Sacrificial Engineer.

I have said this before, but the Process of being Broken Down looks like a Violent Chemical Reaction as the Pathogen Replicates and Breaks down its Host... and the Infected Target just breaks down into Particles, or a Soup then maybe this when contained within a Suit would amount to a Build Up of Pressure and then the Suit would Explode from certain points..

The Big Head Room must have been able to HALT this Process... but once the Head was reanimated then the Process Began at Speed until POP the Head Exploded... Imagine this Reaction more Intense but contained inside the Helmet/Suit?  I think that explains the Holes.

A lot of the Problems come from changes and NOT thinking about what they are showing, so we have some Inconsistencies.  Yes earlier ideas for Fifield was he became a Hybrid just as the Hammerpedes were and in FACT with the earlier Draft... Fifield had Acid Blood.

Also we only ever saw that single Eye Worm of Holloways we had NO explanation for this, its only the Unused Props that seemed to indicate that he would have produced many of this Worm-like Parasites  so it would seem these had began to Replicate inside of him or grow inside of him and we could ponder if one of these had Infected Dr Shaw's Egg Cell or indeed one of these made it to the Womb and was treated by her Body as a Embryo... (the Infected Egg seems more plausible).

Its hard to work out what is going on.... the Hammerpedes are simple to Understand, and if we go by Fifield from Spaights Drafts then they are the same as what happened to the Worms in Prometheus.

The GOO from Prometheus had evolved from Jon Spaights idea of Nano-Scarabs.... but with the Scarabs the Process was SIMPLE

BASE Scarabs (or Goo) would Consume (Break Down) a Organism that consumes the stuff, this BASE would then CARRY the DNA/Genomes of the Organism and would then PASS this stored DNA/Genome onto another Organism that it came into contact with.

WOLF consumes Sacrificial Scarabs/Goo and it is broken down and leaves behind a Substance or many Scarabs that STORE the Wolves DNA.....

This Stored DNA be it inside the Scarabs or Goo, then becomes a Carrier of this DNA that it passes onto another Organism and it will cause the WOLF DNA to be infused with the Organisms DNA to Create a Hybrid.

If this infects a Human... we could get like a Werewolf!

Thats how SIMPLE the Intention/Idea was.... so the Scarabs/Goo would act as a Hybridization Tool

Next Break Down the Werewolf by the same Process (Sacrificial) and the Resulting Substance/Stored DNA is then passed onto a CAT then what you have then is a Organism that in THEORY has 50% CAT, 25% Wolf and 25% Human.

If this Hypothesis is Correct, you could keep MIXING Organisms to Create a Desired Result.    For Example, use the Sacrificial Stuff on that 50% Cat, 25% Wolf and 25% Human on a 50/50 Lizard/Human Hybrid and in Theory you then have a  37.5% Human, 25% Lizard, 25% Cat and 12.5% Wolf type of HYBRID.

THIS is how i speculate David had create the Xenomorph by mainly using Deacon and Neomorph DNA with adding other Traits of other Organisms in his NOTES to create a Strand of DNA/Goo that he then used on Dr Shaw's Egg Cells to create the Ovomorph.

However the Problem is the Humanoids.... for this i can only assume the GOO was Programed to infect their Genome in a Different way..... it would Replicate/Spread and Break Down some, while others would Evolve into a Mutant (like Fifield) and become Aggressive before it too would Break Down.

some earlier SET leaks did show some Engineers attacking each other which we never saw in Alien Covenant, these Engineers (some) looked Mutated a bit like Fifield.

So maybe what i speculated about could be close to what is going on.

However those Engineers became Dedicated/Mummified and never Broke Down into NOTHING.. the only Explanation i can give for that are as follows.

*The Urns/Goo are Programed to attack the Humanoid Genome and Replicate and Spread but then after a Period of Time it would render the Molecular Structure of the Organism into a Calcified/Desiccated State

*As above but this is the Process of the URNS being Weaponized as Intended by the Ship (Explode) as opposed to Leaking as in Prometheus... hence why the Engineers turned to like Stone instead of Breaking Down to Nothing.

*Those Engineers would either had Broke Down or became Mutants, but some SAFETY Device was Activated on the Planet that within a Radius had Turned every Living Thing into a like Stone Like Desiccated State (to KILL/STOP the Infection).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-17-2019 5:47 AM

Regarding the Queen....

Indeed the Black Goo or even the DNA the Xenmorph Shares with the Experiments on LV-223 would likely have a Quick Evolution as opposed to that Natural Process with most Life on Earth.

The PLOT for AC where it seems without David there would be NO EGGS on LV-426, has made things a bit more Complicated well Time Restricted..

I think Regardless of WHO/WHEN the Xenomorph was Created, there is NO reason why the Creator could not have Engineered Different Variants with different Procreative Methods.

The Xenomorph in ALIEN and ALIENS could thus be Different Versions, stored in different parts of the Cargo Hold.

Alien Engineers/Genesis had indicated the Engineers had Engineered 8 different Versions of the Xenomorph in 8 Separate Cargo Holds.

So that could make sense if we go the route that a Queen is a Produce of further Engineering.... but then it could also be that the Queen is a Product of the Organism Evolving itself to adapt to a better Procreation.

IF they continue with the route that the Xenomorph did-not exist (as far as the Eggs on LV-426) prior to Alien Covenant, then i am sure Fans would expect to know HOW does a Queen from Aliens come to be?

Who knows how that comes to be and how many Layers of Engineering/Evolving would occur before we get to the QUEEN we see in the Franchise... we can but Speculate.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-17-2019 6:21 AM

I think the ONLY way to Clear this all up would be if they decided to show and Explain the BLACK GOO as far as Origins, and if it is the same as the Sacrificial Goo and to go into more detail as far as HOW/WHY is the Substance a Radical Form of A.I

I think something that is OVERLOOKED is it appeared the Engineers really are Creators... or so its seemed..  it did not appear that their intentions are Automatically to Create the Pathogen that has Xenomorph/Deacon and Neomorph Traits to Destroy.

It seemed it was a Creation/Hybridization and Evolutionary Tool but its Process would Replace a Organism with a Hybrid and thus Destroy what the Organism was prior...

Which could be used as a Weapon......

Look at it this way...... IMAGINE if the URNS where full of the Sacrificial Goo.... you drop that down onto a World and then the Inhabitants would be Infected and Break Down and RESETS the Process of Evolution back Millions and Millions of Years.

If it is Programmable maybe it can be Programed to ONLY do this to Human Genomes, then other Organisms are NOT infected and Humans just become what ever the Engineer had lead to after his DNA reformed into the Water...

These make the Bio-Weapon much better as far as a RESET and ERADICATION Tool....  The Xenomorph is FLAWED for this Purpose....

So we have to go back and look at WHO/WHY and HOW was the Black Goo on LV-223 Obtained/Programed and those Experiments and what was going through the minds of those who had done this!   Which could reveal a Pretty Sinister/Perverted Agenda.  Where we could Speculate is this WHY those Engineers on LV-223 were called FALLEN!

If this all sounds Complex a Easy Fix is that the Goo does as it has been shown to do and the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus is a Seeding of such Horrific DNA and NOT how the Engineers Seed Humanoid Life.

The Best Solution is a Combination.... show that this is a Substance that can Programed....  if we look at a Program that is a SET of 0/1  or you apply this to a Color for example on a Computer RED is made from changing the 3 Base Colors so RED is R=255, G=0 and B=0 or a CODE of #FF0000 now Light, Saturation and Hue play a Factor so a Darker Red the Light is changed from 128 to say 64 for a CODE of #800000

A Blue is CODE #0000FF

What i am saying is every Color the CODE Changes, by Changing the #0000FF code of Blue to say #0000EE will Slightly Change the Color... so my point being that i every Genome of a Organism is broken into CODE BASES

What if the Goo can be Programed to Change what ever Genome with a Given CODE so for example the Goo infects the Color Code #FF0000 to become #0000FF and thus Changes Red to Blue....

If the GOO can do that with Organic DNA/Genomes then you could Program it to Change a Organism from what Color Hair and Eyes a Human has to revert them back to a Primate etc.

If the GOO has a base of many series of say #000000 then maybe it can infect a Organism and then Map its Entire Genome into the GOO this Mapped Genome GOO then can either infect a Organism where it would PASS those Traits (or best/desired) and keep best/desired Traits of the Infected Organism to create a Hybrid.

But they could also take that Captured DNA/Genome and Turn Off/On what ever Genome/Traits.

What if they also could program it to effect Certain Genome/Traits of a Organism that Matches what is Programed and instead of Changing the Organism it just RESETS all the Genomes to a Certain Code that breaks them down or causes the Organism to Solidify?

You have the PERFECT TOOL for Creation, Evolution and Destruction.

It only takes some Corrupt or Sinister Engineer/Being to attempt to Create something Horrific out of this Stuff, or to come across a Organism they had NOT created and took a interest in and became Obsessed with this Organism and begin to use their Creation Tool to Experiment and Create Horrors (based off this Organisms DNA/Genomes) with the Intention of using them on some Species they have some BEEF with (Problem).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Dec-17-2019 8:42 AM

BigDave

Concerning the ampule room, it might be as simple as that there is a vacuum inside sealed by airtight doors. That would explain why the Engineer head is preserved (but not the body outside). It would also explain why the ampules and murals start to react when the doors are opened and air rushes in.

The Engineers have, of course, been exposed to the mutagenic pathogen in one way or another. The doors probably closed automatically when the outbreak started. A bunch of them didn’t make it to one door but to “our” door a couple of them made it and one was decapitated. It’s possible that they were only exposed to the pathogen and is running to make it before the doors close. It’s also possible that they run from something which has mutated. In a deleted scene, Milburn finds a skin which something has moulted . . .

In the hologram of the running Engineers, we see a couple of them making it inside the ampule room before the door closes. Where did they go? Did the two of them make it to a juggernaut? Is one of them the Space Jockey? Where is the other one?

BigDave

Dec-17-2019 12:57 PM

A Vacuum  is a possible Explanation also.

The Place seemed to Support Oxygen etc, we can only wonder if the Ampoule Room sustained that Environment or it was a Vacuum like Space, hence maybe the Need for the Suits. The Engineers could survive outside on LV-223 without any Masks, Certainly for a Short Period of Time if we go by the Scenes that never made it to the CUT.

We have to assume those Suits are some kind of Bio-Hazard Suit, that either Protect a Environment from the Engineers Respiratory Contamination (CO2 etc) or it Protects  them from the Pathogen or BOTH.

Would the Room had been affected if the Prometheus Crew had kept their Helmets on? We can only Speculate.

There Certainly was a Reason the Head had remained in Good Preservation, also a Reason why either the Opening of the Door, or the Human Crew with No Helmets had Affected the Environment and thus the Ampoules and Fresco.

And we can only  Speculate if the Engineers were attempting to get to such a Room for a Reason.

The mention of the Skin that Milburn Found is interesting, but also was the First Alien deleted scene with those other Organisms/Worms that looked Different that they Collected.

Again their is a lot of Ambiguity and so IF we consider that Scene of the Shredded Skin, it could be that it was there before the Prometheus Crew Arrived... but then it also could be from the Infected Worms after the Room was Contaminated and the Shredding of Skin is what lead to them grow into the Hammerpedes.

There is NO real Clear indication of either, so both could be possible answers...

What was the Engineers running from? the Ones in Front were looking behind themselves, but they could have been running from a Infected Engineer?  Or something else...

Its another Mystery...

Then its a case of HOW was they Infected... surely they would have Precautions in Place... so was it a Accidental Outbreak like how Janek had indicated that he had to HIT the Kill Switch to Eradicate a similar Event on Earth.

Or was it some kind of Sabotage/Terror Attack...

The Juggernaught Scene is Interesting.... as it shows there was 4 Engineers at one point, but we really saw mainly TWO in that Scene (other TWO did Enter but we never saw much of them compared to our Last Engineer and the ONE he was talking too).

These are Interesting Images...

==============================

SUDDENLY ALL SIX ENGINEERS BEGIN TO MOVE TEN TIMES FASTER

.And logic would dictate if these things are RECORDINGS from the past? David has just found the FAST FORWARD BUTTON.

And he pushes it forward. Now, the GHOSTS are just BLURS -- FLYING AROUND THE ROOM -- Sometimes there are MORE, sometimes LESS, sometimes NONE -- God knows how many years he is ZIPPING THROUGH -- How many CENTURIES -- But David’s advanced system seems to be tracking it ALL until --

He EASES up on the control -- Bringing things back to NORMAL SPEED. And instead of six fairly relaxed Engineers?

There is only ONE.

And he is clearly PANICKED. RUSHING ACROSS THE ROOM in FEAR, leaving the main CONTROL AREA and into a CORRIDOR

===========================

From Lindelof's Paradise Draft Page 71

Maybe they had SHOT a similar Scene but it was CUT and that explains those Images?

It would be Logical to Assume something WENT BAD... and they attempted to get to the Cryo-Sleep Pods to either Escape from something or to Quarantine themselves from a Outbreak

But it appears to NO Avail for 3 of the Engineers as they were Infected....

Now in Spaights Draft the Surviving Engineer when woken up was Angry, as he was also Infected and he had Entered Cryo-sleep to Prevent the Infection from taking its Course.   When he was woken up, he was Angry as the Humans had now Sentenced him to his Inevitable Death.

But as far as Prometheus goes, there seems to be NO SIGNS that Last Engineer was infected.... and can we take Deleted Scenes as Clues or Evidence to what happened..

I think the LV-223 Outbreak may remain another Mystery.

I think its SAFE to assume that WHEN those Engineers had began conducting those Experiments, and the Mural, that it was a Matter of Time before things went to POT... this could be Decades, Centuries or Millennia

With Spaights Drafts its clear to see that the Engineers had been Experimenting for some time, but then a OUTBREAK had happened and Crew got Face Hugged (Likely)

With Prometheus we had Ridley Scott indicate the Xenomorph event happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak that left all those Engineers (but ONE) Dead.

But this was never shown or explained in the Movie and with Alien Covenant this could have changed EVERYTHING.

But Regardless something had Chest Busted from those Engineers in Cryo-sleep.  We can but Speculate on HOW and by WHAT.

But i think LV-223 is well WAS the Big Jigsaw Piece to the whole Xenomorph/Deacon Connection... something that Predated this was Experimented on and Created in this Place...

IN HINDSIGHT.....

They should have given us a Prometheus Sequel that would send a Team to LV-223, where we can discover more about the Outbreak and then Give more clues to the Xenomorph and gave us some similar Organisms...

Then the DOOR to ALIEN could have been closed...

And then another Prometheus Sequel to follow Dr Shaw and David and discover more about the Engineers and stuff and STEER AWAY from Xenomorphs could have been given to us.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Dec-17-2019 8:47 PM

The Head Room must have another exit leading to the huge underground room where the juggernaut is parked (the hangar)? The two Engineers we see entering the Head Room made it to the juggernaut?

In the other hologram, we see two more Engineers entering the Juggernaut from another entrance and they hail each other. Did the other two Engineers make it through the other door (which Fifield and Millburn found)? The heap of dead Engineers outside didn’t make it in time?

It would seem that three of the four Engineers who made it to the juggernaut were already infected? It would seem that they were chestbusted (which would mean that a chestburster isn’t affected by the cryosleep chamber but can continue its work . . .)? The fourth Engineer wasn’t infected otherwise he would be chestbusted as well?

Also, IF the Space Jockey came from LV-223 he must have left during or before the outbreak (not some time after) meaning that the Space Jockey is 2000 years old - or more.

The Engineers are just an enhanced version of humans (the same DNA) so I suppose they would have the same problems as humans in space (they would perhaps endure certain conditions a bit longer).

It’s possible that a bio-suit is needed when dealing with the ampoules. It would seem that they reacted to the human presence which would fit well with how an egg/facehugger would react when a living creature is close by.

BigDave

Dec-18-2019 6:29 AM

You raise a number of interesting points...

This image i did a while back, shows that it seems intended that the Rooms have more than ONE way IN/OUT

Regarding the Engineers then a number did make it into the Big Head Room, where they went from there is anyone's Guess..... was any Infected is again anyone's Guess... and the same is with where did they GO next?

The Pile of Dead Engineers likely were trying to get into one of the Rooms, we can Speculate if these Rooms provided Sanctuary from the Infection Spreading, we can only assume if they was Infected or had been Attacked by something that was Infected or a kind of MORPH.

I think we can SAFELY assume that the Pile of Dead Bodies Engineers had occurred after the Hologram Scene of the Engineers running to the Big Head Room, and that the Doors Automatically Locked Down...... i think its likely that the Hologram Scene in Question shows us a Period of Time just as or shortly after the Outbreak had began.

When it comes to the other Hologram Scene on the Juggernaught these Engineers seemed Calm.  The images i shared in my Previous Post would indicate at first they was Calm, but then we see them Running for some Reason.

I can only Speculate but i think these leaves these few Likely Scenarios.

*This Scene shows the Engineers prior to the Outbreak, the Unseen Shots (that i posted before) would seem to indicate they Panicked during or shortly after the Outbreak.  As they attempted to get into Cryo-sleep.

Could they had been the ONES to bring the Infection aboard the Outpost?

*If this scene was After the Outbreak then this could imply these Engineers were a Clean Up Team, or maybe they had something to do with the Outbreak.... some kind of Sabotage/Terror Act.

I will add that indeed the Cryo-sleep Pods may-not have Prevented a Chest Busting...  but maybe this depends on HOW-FAR has the Process gone?

If we ASSUME they had been Face Hugged, this could explain the Panic and Running to the Cryo-Pods Shots... this HOWEVER would mean they went about their Business Calmly then Encountered something and got Face Hugged, Passed Out and Awoke and then in a Panic they Headed to the Cryo-Pods... but would they NOT have set off some Warning?  Was this Ship Docked at this Time... we have to ASSUME so.

If they knew what was to Happen Next, and there was no way to Prevent it would they NOT have had a way to KILL themselves and Prevent the Inevitable?  From Spaights draft it seemed NOT and so they just go into Cryo-Stasis.

Was they Infected WITHOUT their Knowledge, something in the Air, Food or Water they maybe came into contact with, and could the Chest Busting be something similar to a Neomorph event?

Or maybe a Infected Worm or something else got into the Cryo-Pod with out their Knowledge and Grew and Infected them while inside?   Maybe this is Unlikely.

Or could they had come into contact with Hammerpedes and been Infected (Face Raped) and they then attempted after to Escape to the Cryo-Pods?   However a similar thing Happened to Milburn and it Killed Him so this is maybe Unlikely.

The Actual Engineer Props seem to be Chest Busted more Violent and Larger than a Xenomorph Chest Buster but NOT quite as Large as a Deacon Chest Buster (well from a Trilobite at least).

However the HOLE in the Cryo-Pod Cover is outwards and so that means something came from Inside and its Size would be Larger in Proportion than a Xenomorph Chest Buster but Smaller than the Deacon.

Something Neomorph Birth Size would be about Right.

I think we can only Wonder for what reason the Space Jockey Suit has.... The Juggernaught had a similar Suit, and YET we know that Dr Shaw survived in Space on a Juggernaught for some time with NO NEED for any Helmet/Mask and so that means the Ships Sustain Oxygen while they are in Space.

I would say a Space Jockey Suit may-not protect from a Face Hugger, or Hammerpede or a Trilobite.

But i would assume it would prevent other Contamination from the Black Goo, or like Neomorph Spores.  If this assumption is Correct it gives a Good Reason for those Suits, but then it means any Infection would be while they was not wearing them or the Helmet..

Or the Breathing Apparatus/Tank was Infected (Sabotage?)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-18-2019 6:44 AM

The actual Space Jockey is a Different Story.

Prior to the Prequels it was indicated he was infected by a Egg from the Cargo Hold.

We saw NO such thing in Prometheus, NO Eggs or Xenomorphs, but we don't know if they had been in other Complexes, or in a Cargo Hold as we was not SHOWN anything like that.

Ridley Scott had came out and EXPLAINED what happened though.... he had said the Following.

*The Even is Connected to LV-223

*The Pilot had became Infected with his Cargo, going FURTHER in a latter comment to say Something Evolved in the Cargo Hold.

*The Derelict did-not crash, its indicated the Pilot had intended to Land where he had. (To Quarantine the Cargo).

*The event happened within a FEW HUNDRED Years of the Outbreak on LV-223 and so 1800-2200 Ball Park give or take up to another 100 Years.

To me this indicates that the Outbreak happened, and the Space Jockey had gone into Cryo-Sleep (maybe or he arrived at LV-223 at some point) but that the Ships Cargo Hold (Derelict) something had Evolved some Few Hundred Years after the Outbreak and the Pilot had came to Investigate and was Infected, and then he had left LV-223 for some reason and then Quarantined the Cargo on LV-426.

But we never got to see this on Screen or maybe would also NEVER had and RS was kind of Vague.

Ridley Scotts comments though seem to imply maybe the SHIP never Originally had Egg Cargo, but then we can ask HOW do the Urns become Eggs?

In Alien Covenant we was shown the URNS can be reduced to NOTHING or so it seemed (Exploded) if similar Happened, could it have infected something that grew in the Cargo Hold to Evolve into Eggs?  We see the Neomorph Spores had Evolved from Mold/Fungi or so we can Assume.

But then we got Alien Covenant which Potentially means none of that Applies anymore. (Eggs being on the Derelict prior to Prometheus).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Dec-18-2019 10:17 AM

The four Engineers (three of them dead) in the cryo-pods is definitely a mystery. Since they were tucked in, why didn’t they take off? One interesting thing is that the cockpit isn’t raised. Where’s the pilot? Dead and gone?

Perhaps the outbreak happened because someone wanted to stop them from eradicating mankind? There were Engineers who thought that mankind should have a second chance? Therefore, the juggernaut never took off. The pilot and everybody else died?

Miraculously, the pathogen or the mutations resulting from it didn’t reach the last Engineer? He slept on and nobody awakened him until the Prometheus expedition arrived.

BigDave

Dec-18-2019 3:46 PM

Certainly is Chli ;)

The thing with the Pilot is we don't really know if the Ship needs one as such.... Maybe only as FAR as to get the Ship into Orbit, and to Land the Ship.  Also maybe more than ONE of the Engineers could FLY the Ship, otherwise our Surviving Engineer is the Designated Pilot, but in the Hologram Scene there was another Engineer who Entered who was Holding a Space Jockey Helmet, however the Pilot Chair has its own Helmet so that does-not indicate this other Engineer was tasked with Piloting the Ship.

The Question Regarding the Surviving Engineer and WHY he seemed to be the ONLY one is a Interesting Subject that had been discussed a few Times....

With the Intentions of Ridley Scott it appeared he was just LUCKY!

However....... IF we take into account the Deleted Scenes then they PAINT a different Picture of the Engineer, especially the look on his FACE to Dr Shaw and her Questions, and then the Wonder on the Engineers Face when he had seen the Violin Girl and the Interest in the Books he saw on the Life-Boat...

He seemed very Impressed at HOW-FAR we had come since they had Abandoned us... (after the Outbreak)

So if we look at those EXTRA Scenes and Consider the Possibility that some Engineers felt that we did-not need to be DESTROYED..... and we look at the Plot that they must have Invested a lot of Effort and Time in Mankind, and that its indicated they Taught us MOST of what we knew at that Time... (2000+ Years ago).   Then some Engineers could feel that if they INSTEAD just abandoned us then we would NEVER be able to Advance Further than the Level we was at 2000 Years ago, we would NEVER be able to Build Ships and Travel the Stars....  What a Hubris and how Naive that was..... Arrogant of them too.

So maybe some... decided to Abandon that Horrific Place that was LV-223 and to also Abandon Mankind on Earth.... if they have Seeded Other Worlds, then we are just ONE BAD let say Apple Tree and as long as this Bad Apple Tree cant affect the others in your Orchard then you just leave it to ROT rather than to bother to CUT it down.

So IF some Engineers felt that the Mission to Destroy us was WRONG..... then we ask HOW could they Prevent it?

SABOTAGE comes to Mind....

If your still with me so far.... and we consider this... then asking HOW the Outbreak Happened, and WHY they all seemed to FALL Victim apart from the ONE.. would make Clear Sense Now ;)

Lets just think for a Second on the Prometheus, if David wanted to Sabotage all the Humans on the Ship, then a Easy and Concealed Way would be to... be a Very Naughty Bar Man....  by that he could SPIKE everyone's Drink...  "Enjoying your Vodka Miss Vickers" 

And so maybe something similar would be a WAY to Infect a lot of Fellow Engineers without them knowing....

IF we consider the Deleted Scenes etc... the Engineer Still went POSTAL.... but we could see that maybe this was because he Realized that Mankind had managed to Advance to the Level to not only Reach Space but to also Find their Outpost, and have Created a Being that can use the Engineer Technology...

Right there we are a THREAT... and after he saw how Selfish Weyland was Acting... he would have had NO Choice but to Carry Out the Destruction of Earth as we could Potentially NOW be a THREAT to the Engineers and Worlds they had Seeded.  And by looking at Weyland he would see that a lot of Mankind are Wicked, Selfish and Arrogant..... we really had NOT changed for the Good.

Thats my Interpretation of the Last Engineer, and then how if we consider Sabotage then the Outbreak makes Sense...

But by ONLY Considering the Theatrical Cut then this Theory/Explanation does not have the LEGS really.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-18-2019 4:14 PM

I think trying to kind of get back to the OT

And try and see how the Prequels Connect really depends on how you take Alien Covenant or Interpret it.  Prometheus likewise but this Movie seemed to over NO Contradictions to the Possibility of the AGE of the Eggs on the Derelict... while not Concluding they was Ancient However.

Prior to Alien Covenant it was quite clear to see there was a Connection between LV-223 (Experiments and Black Goo)  and the Xenomorph (more so with Deleted Material and Concept Work).

What we could Conclude or Speculate to a Logical Conclusion was that the Xenomorph was something that either was the PRECURSOR to those Experiments/Black Goo on LV-223 or that they were the PRECURSOR to the Xenomorph.

It could have been a Mystery and we could then have TWO Logical Conclusions....  

*Xenomorph was Discovered by the Engineers, and this lead to the Experiments on them to Create the Horrors on LV-223

*The Xenomorph was a Eventual Result of the Experiments that was Conducted on LV-223, be that a Engineered/Designed Result or a Unintentional One.

And thats the WAY they should have left it...

I wont bring Alien Covenant much into this, as this debate had been covered a lot.. In a Nutshell it seems to Indicate that the Pathogen and Neomorphs were used to Create Various Experiments until David had achieved his Perfection.

Prior to Alien Covenant... then what David had done but these kinds of Experiments by Engineers could be the more Likely Origin of the Xenomorph going back prior to Alien Covenant.

Back to the OT...

Then indeed the Engineers could have used this Black Goo as a Bio-Weapon... back prior to Alien Covenant we could speculate did they Engineer Xenomorphs to be used as a Bio-Weapon too? or was they a Accidental Creation (maybe like Neomorphs).

The Company does have a Interest in using the Xenomorph also for its Bio-Weapons Department.

I think if we look more into the Black Goo and Experiments, than the Xenomorph....

I have said this prior, i DONT think they Needed the Black Goo, not as a Weapon... and Especially if we consider the Engineers are Genetic Gardeners of the Galaxy and Creation is their Main Purpose..

I feel dropping down the Sacrificial Goo or if its the SAME stuff but Programed Differently then using it as it was in the Sacrificial Scene makes more Sense as FAR as a RESET Switch Bio-Weapon.

Such a Weapon could Worse/Long Case just Reset a Planet back to Similar Point to what it was when the Engineers First Began their First Seeding via Sacrificial Scene...

so there is a more SINISTER Agenda going on LV-223 than merely having something they can USE to CLEAN A WORLD... and START AGAIN...

I suspect the Juggernauts from Inception were never Originally Intended to be used as a War Machine to bring to a World Evil Horrors like Neomorphs, Deacons and Xenomorphs..

I dont buy that LV-223 was a Place of Horrific Experiments as far back as 35'000 Years ago..

something CHANGED... something made those on LV-223 begin to Create Something Else.... something Horrific for Some Reason...

When i Consider TWO things....

1) Ridley Scott said the Engineers on Planet 4 are the Originals... and i look into the Paradise Lost/Fallen Angels Context of that and Consider Mankind/David.

2) I Consider your other Topic about Genetic Memory/Sin (Kanes Son) and i Consider the Topic i made about Engineers wanting to Transcend themselves (Verge of Godhead) and i look at Ripley 8

I think maybe we could Speculate at a Reason why those Engineers had Experimented on what they had on LV-223

Sorry if this is a bit Off Topic though.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Dec-19-2019 1:27 AM

If “our” Engineer is the last man standing, why does he decide to take a nap in the cryo-pod and lie there like Sleeping Beauty? He has succeeded in preventing a holocaust so why doesn’t he leave that horrible place and travel back to his homeworld (or somewhere else)?

Also, the juggernauts don't seem to have a "Mother" controlling the ship so they have to be woken manually? That's why our Engineer's been snoozing there for 2000 years?

BigDave

Dec-20-2019 6:31 AM

I think that is a Good Point...

I think it depends on HOW we look at the Movie/Engineer maybe he decided or was Tasked to Wait just in case anyone Turns up?

If we go by the Theatrical Cut then the likely Answer is he was just Lucky to not be Infected, and he either Forgot to set his Wake-Up Alarm or it Failed... or he Choosed to Stay behind in case any comes back..

I find that last point unlikely, as if his ONLY intention was to Destroy us, then he surely would have Carried this out at some Other point... so i would say in this case when he went into Cryo-Sleep he had OVERSLEPT ;)

Indeed it does seem their Ships are more Manually Controlled but would have a Auto-Pilot of Sorts.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Dec-21-2019 2:44 AM

I suppose it's possible that the juggernaut landed on auto-pilot and that they never got out of the cryo-pods? They were attacked by something from the cargo hold before they landed and this spread to the other Engineers on LV-223? Or something from LV-223 attacked them before they had time to exit the cryo-pods?

BigDave

Jan-02-2020 8:05 AM

I think there is a lot we can Speculate about... it really depends on what Evidence we use....  I think we have to remember that Ridley Scott should be the Biggest Source of Information, and also the Theatrical Cut..... which he claims is his Directors Cut..

By that i mean RS intended to portray the Engineers on LV-223 as Aggressive SOB's who had Created Evil Bacterial Drums of $"%£ has he puts it... 

So we also then have to Consider what David had said, which was these Engineers had intended to go to Earth, before things went to POT!

We know those Dead Engineers had been gone for 2000 Years give or take, we can assume from David and also what RS had said that they was in the Process of Preparing to Unleash the Black Goo on Earth (at very least) before things THEN WENT TO POT.

The Juggernaught Engineer Scene we then have to assume took place before the Outbreak...

The Scene seemed to Indicate the Engineers at this point were very CALM... there was NO signs of Panic or Danger. We see that TWO Engineers arrive to the LEFT of David, and then TWO more to the RIGHT...  the other Engineers appear to spend most their Time touching the Cryo-Pods, so they must be setting them Ready to be Occupied.

The ONE Engineer (Survivor) instead is in the Command Seat, and operates/activates the Orrery Map and he appears to be Calm, we do see another Engineer looking at the Orrery Map and Pointing at certain things in the Map.  It appears they TARGET Earth, but we ant rule out if the Ship has Multiple Destinations.  Unless that other Engineer is the ONE who at that point Selected the Destination?

We can assume the Last Engineer who was in the Control Chair was the LAST of the Engineers to enter Cryo-sleep, and it seems those Engineers are NOT aware they are Infected, or any signs of being in a Rush or Panic and so at this POINT there is NO OUTBREAK.

We can only ASSUME that Engineer would be the one to ACTIVATE the Pilot Chair to take off.. and have to ask WHY the Ship never took off?

Surely the Process would have been to Activate the Pilot Chair, Activate the Hanger Doors and then Pilot the Juggernaught into Space and then go into Cryo-Sleep until they arrive at their Targeted Worlds...

So there is a lot of Mystery that we can only Speculate on.

*The Ship could have came from some place else and then DOCKED on LV-223, but it would seem if so it was in the Hanger for a While and not just a Case of a Quick STOP OFF..

*We Cant rule out that if the Ship had docked on LV-223 for a Number of Hours or Days, that something had got on the Ship or Contaminated the Cargo Hold). But if we go for the above TWO points, then WHY would a Ship arrive with some Cargo Left, and then Top-Up the Cargo?

*So it would be more likely that the Ship either Arrived and Docked or was already Docked for Weeks/Months, while the Cargo was being Loaded to the Ship.  The Engineers then began to Enter the Ship and SET-UP the Mission, its Destination, the Cryo-Pods and then 3 of the Engineers had Entered the Cryo-Pods...

BEFORE THINGS WENT TO POT!

We can then only Speculate a Few Things...

1) During the Final Process of Launching the Mission, the Last Engineer detected something was WRONG... and he had Entered Cryo-Sleep...  But then WHY did he Survive, and IF he detected something was Wrong with the Cargo, then WHY was the SHIP not Quarantined so the Outbreak is Confined to that SHIP?

2) During the Final Process of Launching the Mission their was a OUTBREAK on LV-223 in the Outpost and the SHIPS where put on LOCK-DOWN.  But then we have to ask was the Last Engineer just LUCKY? and HOW would the Outbreak have infected the other Engineers if the OUTPOST was put on Lock Down?

So to me it looks like some kind of Sabotage has to be the Best Explanation Still.... the Extra Scenes may support this... but to Ignore them.... then maybe some Sabotage could have Happened prior to the Engineers making their way to the Ships....

Our Last Engineer either being in on the ACT... or he was just Lucky to Not have been Infected...

Looking at how CALM those Engineers were, and if we assume ONCE they had Set-Up the Cryo-Pods, then about Few Hours or Less after the Hologram Scene they surely should have DEPARTED on their Mission.

So then we have to look at HOW can Engineers be Infected but be Unaware and also something that would not be a INSTANT infection, well no Symptoms for a Few Hours.

The ONLY thing we have seen similar would be Holloways Infection.  Which to Infect a lot of Engineers in this way without their knowledge looks more like a Sabotage rather than a Accidental Outbreak.

Either way something on a Smaller Scale like Holloways Infection where a small Part of the Substance infects a Water or Air Supply could well be the likely Culprit.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jan-05-2020 1:41 PM

Well, I suppose we could continue to speculate that the juggernauts' cargo holds were empty when they reached LV-223? It would seem that at least two went there to get the lethal supply - either eggs or pathogen. It seems unlikely that the urns transformed into eggs. They could have leaked and mutated some lifeform in the cargo hold but the urns would still be there (there are no urns when Kane enters the egg chamber).

It's possible that one juggernaut fetched the eggs from another pyramid and ended up as the Derelict and the pilot (Space Jockey) on LV-426. It's also possible, of course, that other juggernauts left LV-223 with the same purpose, either to Earth or some other worlds. We know that at least two failed their missions.

The real conundrum is the four Engineers lying in the cryo-pods, the pilot chair not raised and no pilot. They must have died (three of them) from the outbreak started on LV-223 and one was "lucky" to survive.

But it makes no sense that they are all lying there. Were all four of them waiting for take-off (auto-pilot)? You would suspect that one cryo-pod was empty (the pilot), similarly you could wonder what happened to the rest of crew on the Derelict. The "doors" were opened and there were no sign of facehuggers or xenomorphs.

BigDave

Jan-05-2020 5:53 PM

Indeed there is a lot we can only Speculate about..

The Engineer Conundrum really is just that, IF they was Infected prior to the Hollogram Scene, they did-not seem to be aware of any Infection, be it Black Goo, Neomorph like let alone Face Hugged..

We can only Speculate if at a Later Point they was Infected and Aware and Panicked, as the Drafts seemed to Indicate and also a Shot that we did not see.

If we IGNORE such things and only go by what we saw Theatrically then its more of a Mystery.

Which is WHY i wonder was there some Sabotage/Spike of their Drink/Air Supply.

They seemed to be Chest Busted, and by something that would be LARGER than a Xenomorph but NOT as Large as the Deacon (well Human Fetus Evolved).   We can only Speculate really.

The Derelict and Juggernaught are different Internally, the earlier Jon Spaights Draft indicates the Cryo-Pods are Standing and are NOT located in the Pilot Chamber, so we can maybe Speculate the Derelict has a Similar Layout or that it has only the PILOT.

I think it could be LIKELY that the Props for the Engineers were made in Relation to Jon Spaights Story, and they decided to keep them or Finish them off for Lindeloffs Story which we have NO answers for... But with Spaights the indication was Face Hugger Infection which the Engineers were ALL infected and Attempted to go into Cryo-sleep to Prevent this.

To TRY and look at your first point in your last reply, well indeed it seems odd about something EVOLVING in the Cargo Hold.

There was NO Urns on the Derelict, and surely Urns cant Change?

In Alien Covenant we see the Urns seem to disintegrate into a Mass of Cloudy Particles so Nothing remained of the Casing.... was this part of the Activation? Or because they HIT a Force Field (thats for another debate). 

The Neomorph Spore Pods grew from something being infected with the Black Goo.

If a Cargo Hold had something inside that could be Evolved as the Spore Pods were, and if the Urns had Activated/Exploded in the Cargo Hold... then MAYBE... what we could have is something that Evolves inside the Cargo Hold.

If a Engineer Ship had a Water Leak and a Infected Water Supply or a Leak in a Empty Cargo Hold, but some Black Goo had got into that HOLD and this Hold had Mold... we could Speculate that something like a Neomorph Spore would be Possible?

A Infection in a Water Supply could explain the Outbreak... if Leaked Water would then produce some Algae/Moss or Fungi or Mold etc... then this could EVOLVE into Something.

That is maybe the Best Way i can try and think how such a thing could Happen!

But if we IGNORE what RS had said then indeed the most likely Connection or how it appeared would have been either.

1) They Created, Engineered, Evolved something on LV-223 and Transported it to a Ship and ONE of those Ships was the Derelict.

2) The Derelict was Transporting Eggs to be used to Create/Experiment with on LV-223.

One of those seemed to look Visually what the Connection should/could be.

The only other way RS comment would make sense would be IF....... Something had Evolved in ONE Cargo Hold, then it Infected the Pilot, and then it had made its way into a Empty Hold to Lay the Eggs....

The Problems come from NOT really bothering to give a indication to HOW the Derelict/Juggernaught are Connected

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jan-06-2020 12:30 PM

About the pictures you made of the pyramid, there seems to be a shaft going down into the headroom. Also, Fifields pups have circled along way up the pyramid. What's up there?

I guess a reasonable explanation for the Engineers lying in the cryo-pods, the pilot chair not raised and the hangar closed would be sabotage, as you suggest. They had intended to destroy life on Earth but were stopped. The Engineers we see running and the pile of Engineers we see outside the closed door saved humanity but not themselves?

BigDave

Jan-06-2020 3:36 PM

I think thats the Beauty of Prometheus.. its ambiguity means we cant really come up with any Conclusive Answers... we could take what Ridley Scott says... but then its a EVOLVING Story and so what he said in 2012, 2013 would not be what the Plan was as of 2016.  What i mean by that is he had said after Prometheus the Derelict Event had happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak 2000 Years ago, and by Virtue of expanding that to suggest something Evolved in the Cargo Hold would imply the EGGS were not on the Derelict at the Time of the Outbreak but something Evolved to them some Few Hundred Years after....

But we can THROW that out of the Window if his Intention  was what we have in ALIEN Covenant... which Contradicts what he has said about the Event prior to 2015.

I think if we GO BACK to prior to AC then it seems the Derelict and LV-223 Events are Connected but maybe Separated by a Period of Time.

It is NOT so Impossible to consider a Cargo Hold of Urns becomes something ELSE.... if we look at Prometheus we see the Urns in the Big Head Room become affected and the Black Goo seems to LEAK from the TOP and in some Shots it appears a THICK WAXY like Substance has appeared on the TOP of the Urns that is ORGANIC.

When we look at the Urns that are NOT affected and the Urn that David had took to the Prometheus we see the Urns are Constructed of TWO Parts... like a Russian Doll

WHY did the Urns not Leak from the Seal/Area where the Urns are Opened from?  And so HOW did the Goo seem to Escape from the seemingly Solid Lid?

If the Material the Urns are made of can Dissolve in a way that the Goo Escapes from the LID... could under certain Circumstances the Entire Urn just Dissolve?  Is that what we see in the Bombardment Scene in Alien Covenant?

If that is the Case, and a Cargo Hold of Urns can Dissolve then any Organic Material in the Hold could be Infected... and Eventually become the Eggs?

Another thing to Consider regarding the Evolving Cargo and Few Hundred Years, is COULD it be Prior to the Outbreak?  The only way this would make Sense would be if the Derelict had been Parked on LV-223 and its Cargo Hold Evolved, and a incoming group of Engineers Arrive at LV-223 and go to the Derelict and Discovery something had Evolved... but then its HOW does this Connect with the Later Outbreak?

However... Speculation on the Derelict Event and Ridley Scotts Comments back in 2012 are MOOT!   As with Alien Covenant it is indicating that as of the Year 2105 there are NO EGGS on the Derelict!  And so the Idea that RS had back then and Comments are NOT applicable anymore!

However because we have NOT yet seen those Eggs on the Derelict as FAR as them getting on the Ship.... then THINGS could be Changed... and IF they do so, then that does-not mean they would go back to the Idea that RS had as of 2012 in that the Event Happened about 200 Years prior or after the LV-223 Outbreak after something Evolved in the Cargo Hold...

If they CHANGE the David Created the Eggs on the Derelict Plot, then what they Change the Revelation and Origin too, does not have to Match what RS had mentioned in 2012 etc.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-06-2020 4:01 PM

The LV-223 Juggernaught is a different Matter as we know 100% those Cryo-Pod Engineers had been Killed a LONG TIME ago...

So we have a Ball Park we can place their FATE around.

And so bringing up the Pyramid Structure is Interesting.

If we look at those Images we can see there is a Central Shaft that Runs to the Cistern at the Top of the Shaft we have what is described as Vapor.

These mean there is WATER! and during the Scene when Holloway takes of his Helmet we see they are in some Central Place and there is Dripping Water.

This Scene indicates that the Engineers were Terra-forming as the Atmosphere inside was Breathable Compared to OutsideWater is H2O and so from that you can make Oxygen.

So the Vapor must be how they extract Water and Turn that into Oxygen.

Maybe we can assume what Happens if the Water Supply is Infected?  If the Engineers are similar to us then Logically they would Need Water for Certain and we can assume Oxygen.

A Accidental/Deliberate Contamination of the Water could be a way that Engineers could be Infected without any Knowledge until its TOO LATE!

We know there was a Outbreak, it appears in the Thousands of Years that had Passed there was NOTHING from this Infection/Outbreak that was a THREAT...

The Threat coming from Fresh Leak of Black Goo from the Ampoule Room after the Prometheus Crew entered the Ampoule Room with NO Helmets.

In 2012 and 2013 we had RS mention a few times about the Pathogen and what if this stuff infects a Water Supply, and that after a Period of Hundreds of Years the Contamination would be Clear and Engineers Safe to Return to a Infected World.

So maybe any Contamination be it in the Air or Water could become Stable/Dissipated over time?   And in Alien Covenant this could even had Happened in a Lesser Time, unless the GOO was Programed a Certain way or there was a Safe-Gard to Eradicate a Infection?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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