What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory

I have been away for two days and "all hell breaks lose ha ha!" 

I think what we are all discussing in our different ways and to each other is how much and to what extent are the string of movies going to be threaded together and drive the answers through a neat but potentially trite narrative arc. Because John Logan is involved in Covenant and because of Ridders remarks I think the chance has increased dramatically since the shift away from the elliptical Lindelof approach.

I have a lot of sympathy with such an approach because we want more depth and answers rather than more questions but the danger is fan service answers .

What we then do is wrestle with incoming intel and where it might fit.

To finish at the end I think the jockey is an exceptional being and the chances of it being a sacrificial death with a deadly cargo and then a warning from this exceptional being is quite likely. Could this exceptional being be a radically transformed somebody rather than just one of those pale guys I think thats possible now. 

Now back to the front W/Y this now feels like a coming together following the death of the Weylands and the disastrous mission of the Prometheus. How do they find out that has occurred. Shaw's message arrives, is intercepted by either elements of W and Y and they also, to "follow" Shaw and David have established where they went. Thats to use one of the casts language a fluid move from Prom to Covenant. They know through Shaw LV223 is bad and they chose to interpret that Shaw and David have gone to the "right" place and hence it is a mission to colonise and protect and all the Covenant motives that go with it. Its not a rescue mission urgently dispatched its a changed view of exploration following the coming together of T & Y. To arrive by coincidence would be horribly plot point expeditious something must trigger the destination maybe even a bait from David.        

When they get their they find out what David the sole survivor has been cooking up, left to play God, and then we get some answers about the engineers and how the specific Zeno cycle has merged with its bio mechanical input. We learn about the Engineers third party. If their is a huge head lurking in the Sydney Studios we might get to see some more murals and David may have learnt and interpreted those for us. I certainly see D8* as a big information disseminator on matters Engineer/Zeno

BD takes the view that the Hammerpede and Deacon are representative of the Black Goo's catalytic effect in various combinations they are showing us what goes down rather than lead some where (thats always been my view its showing us methodology rather backing into something specific) BUT they may all make a good deal more sense in our understanding of the sub creation mythos once we see some more evolved answers.

One completely random thought maybe the multiple David's belonged to the Shaw/David story line searching out the truth of the Engineers phase. I am not aware of a recent observation, any thoughts ?  

Michelle Johnston -  Perhaps that's not such a random thought.  You may be right:  the multiple David concept could have been a much bigger part of the story originally - in the earlier drafts of the script.  

I'm not sure exactly when we began hearing about multiple Davids from BigDave's source. Or how many drafts of the script they'd already gone through by that point; however, I can confirm that Fox had people looking at the concept in various ways.  At least at one point there was going to be another David or three in the story...

It's possible that the idea has survived in some form, yet the info about multiple Davids being in the film is something that leaked years ago;  if it's still part of the script, then it probably has changed form in some way.  

What I think has changed, is that there will only be one additional David in the script now, who would be David 9.

I also agree with you that happening upon the planet by chance is highly unlikely.  It's so improbable that it's almost out of the question. Somebody on that ship knows exactly where they're going.  The universe is extremely vast, and the planet might not be anywhere near LV-223, so the odds of them bumping into David out there in the great expanse of the universe are incredibly slim.  I'm thinking that at least one character is in the know.

Your thoughts on what happened with the Derelict/its pilot's act being sacrificial in nature are intriguing as well.   

BigDave -  I've always thought this next prequel movie was going to explore all the stuff you mentioned in more depth too.  Not only LV-426 & the Engineers/Space Jockey, but also things like how the merger happens.

The Weyland-Yutani corporation itself really interests me for some strange reason.  I was actually looking forward to seeing the hows and whys behind the merger; however, now that they're skipping over showing that, I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed.  Mostly due to my weird personal desire to see more of the merger.  Mostly.

They really don't need to bring back Hicks and Newt. That's just Fox performing fan service. So yeah, I'm a little worried about Alien 5.  My mind's not made up yet though.  I haven't really decided how I feel about it.

It's neat that Alien 5's happening, it's just really hard to figure out how they're going to continue "Ripley's story" and have it all make sense.  It's like you said, the movie runs the risk of becoming a mindless popcorn flick.  

With Blomkamp saying that he's not really ignoring Alien 3 (and instead running parallel to it), I'm not sure how any of it will work. They'd need to win me over with a good story, and a very logical reason why Hicks and Newt are suddenly back (Ripley too for that matter).  I kind of hope that there's some sort of virtual reality shenanigans going on in the plot of Alien 5:  that it turns out it's only a simulation & Ripley is stuck in a hologram.

Your source once mentioned a bizarre Matrix-like concept, right?  Well, what if I was to tell you that almost everything we see in Alien 5 is a virtual reality simulation? What if the machines have hijacked reality itself by that point? (/Morpheus voice) Maybe the creator of Bishop asks Ripley if she wants to stay in the dreamworld, or if she's ready to wake up. Lol.  Not saying this is what actually happens. It's just a hypothesis/theory of mine. 

Carlyn, Thanks for your thoughts much appreciated. On A 5 you have to say multiple time lines is pretty tricky I see real jeopardy there. I would much rather they take 3 and 4 out of cannon by a simple starting plot device rather than parallel it. At the moment it reminds me of fan fiction where people re write relationship outcomes to get what they want. The only hope is being science fiction they have a good science answer. So far the effect of A 5 is to pull the Prometheus sequel away from the elliptical Lindelof vision and crutch out a tight narrative with answers to me thats not such a bad thing.    

@Michelle

Yes i agree with them points, who knows however where they are going with Alien Covenant....  i had a  theory, which i put before and re-hashed with the Covenant Badge news Post... 

But the Weyland Yutani means my theory may no longer apply, and so yes while the Synopsis could suggest the Crew were not so wise as to what is going on...   Now we have Weyland Yutani behind the Covenant mission  or Technology this could indeed be the first time the Company has attempted a Order 937....

The Covenant Crew for the Most Part could think they are off to a Paradise, based on information the Company has given them, where the Company has not been completely honest... Maybe David gave the Location of Paradise then?

The Company set up a mission to go to a uncharted Earth like World, which would rule out the Coincidental Plot that it happens to be where David is.. when the crew and reason the crew set off to this World, had no idea..

To now that someone does... but the Crew dont... they think they are off on a mission to a Earth like World.... not knowing the Companies real intentions... and with a hidden member with a Agenda.. not so hidden like Ash.. just with Hidden Motives like Ash i.e Order 937

This would work...  and the Nostramo was maybe the 2nd attempt but using some other excuse and also having a hidden Android and then finally Hadleys Hope was the 3rd attempt to set up a Colony on the Moon LV-426 where they did not know about the Derelict or Xenos?

Yeah right as Prometheus and Alien Covenant would prove they did.

Sorry last reply covered mainly what Caryn was covering.

To expand upon that.... the Multiple Davids was part of the time when Hell on Earth rumor came out...  The source who is vague, said nope Hell on Earth is not Prometheus 2 they thought maybe it was Alien 5 working Title? but that Prometheus 2 was simply going to be called Paradise Lost or Pandemonium or combination... i.e Paradise Pandemonium....  which when you think of it Paradise and Pandemonium are maybe alternate States , Yin/Yang Tranquility and Bliss vs Chaos and Disorder.. but also Heaven/Hell.

The Source around the same time of these Hell on Earth Rumors, said  yes there is more than one David but dont expect a Army of them... more like less than a handful.  Also Shaw does not Die... (Technically) and No Ripley in the draft as of October 2014

Little hints that Yutani play a big role eventually too and so the Merger may not have happened early and off the bat as far as the Paglen/Green Draft.

so yes Alien 5, may have triggered a change of its own Plot, and Prometheus Sequel to fit in together a bit more... hence Logan brought on board.

So yes... also i feel just going from Weyland which now has lost its Two CEO's to then 10 years latter we have Weyland Yutani is something they could have covered...  but again same could be said with how there is no Shaw, and maybe no or little left of the Engineers.

But thats not to say these wont be covered latter... and that right now they have maybe had to come in from the Back Door, Rear... because of Alien 5....  so it would be like maybe how Star Wars EP-4-6 was out before EP 1-3 but set after...

Maybe there is hope that events prior to Prometheus and events/questions get answered latter and the events between Prometheus and Alien Covenant get answered too.

As far as Parallel with regards to Alien 3 and Alien R it would be interesting how they do this...

We have options.. maybe here is a few.

* They are dreams.. but elements of those dreams will come true as far as Alien 5.

* Some event causes a tear in space and for a Parallel universe to open up.. i put  a theory that what if David caused or somehow with Engineer Ship managed to open up a tear in space near LV-426 to travel back in time to LV-426 thousands of years ago.. and Covenant enters the same Tear in Space and Time.

This then becomes unstable during the events of after Alien Covenant but the Blast in Aliens somehow triggers its again and sends the Sulcao into Alternative universes...

* There is already Parallel Universes in Existence... Aliens ==> Alien R is One.... Aliens ==>  Alien 5, 6 etc is another..... Likewise Prometheus ==> What ever they had planned before.... and Prometheus ==> Alien Covenant are other alternatives.

I would take option 2 out of those. Its a way that could tie in the events of David to Alien. And yet still have the Derelict be there for thousands of years....

Yes even though its all Terminator Genisys... maybe the True plot is closer to that than we think.... and David is the Key part in all events in the Franchise... his mission destroy Earth, for the Engineers as they made a Covenant to not retry... and they have made a Covenant with David to make him more Mortal yet Immortal and Godlike in return for David to set off a Secret Covert Plan and Pull the Strings to lead to mankind's destruction then he can be God of Earth and his Androids.

@ Caryn...

Yes the source mentioned Matrix, and Blade Runner but they would not go into detail, just that once the movie is out (based on the Draft by Green/Paglen) we would after seeing it played out.. pick up themes from Matrix and Blade Runner.... but they said it wont be too literal.

Just how Prometheus links to the Bible, God, Prometheus Myth and Angels/Fallen Angels but again the connections where mild in a theme and these themes are to be explored but it wont be literal... same with Paradise Lost... he said there is theme there, a theme seeds in Prometheus set... that ties in a connection between Prometheus Mythos and Greek Titanomachy  and Bible but more so Paradise Lost theme... these all have a connection, which is also connected to Matrix and Blade Runner as far as a theme....  but they would not Spell out what... so as to not spoil it.

But they claimed seeds of the theme has already been hinted at and delt with in Prometheus... using your head and looking at how Prometheus Plot and Greek Titanomachy  and Biblical Paradise Lost and Rebellion Themes, and Prometheus/Lucifer all could connect and also themes in Blade Runner and Matrix... would give you the back story to the Plot..

They dont say much no more... not for 2 months now.. they dont know what Alien Covenant is about, only it has been re-changed for some reason, and so like a jump from Alien Engineers to Paradise... but both kept a lot of themes.... well Alien Covenant could be doing a reverse and so themes from the Green/Paglen Draft could make it into the movie.. or at least by the end of the Prequel Franchise.

PS..... while i went off Topic.... in regard to the Paglen/Green Draft...  the image at the Top of this Thread... is indeed what ONE of the Xenomorphs in the earlier drafts was to look very close to.

Alien Covenant however now hints to seeing the more Traditional Xenomorph from Alien as opposed to a fresher form based of the Original... (Necronom IV)

@Big Dave and Carolyn.

If David 9 is incoming on the Covenant I think my idea of real drama out of D 8 and 9 would work just as I suggested David 8 and David real.

What I like about this idea is David 9 is W/Y 937 driven whereas David 8 is now self employed. You could argue that two androids going head to head (excuse that) is equally dramatic but two David's would work nicely with the naive crew and the dopple ganger jeopardy.  

Indeed interesting.....

The Weyland Yutani Badge blows my hopes of a Earlier Covenant mission departure and David 8 meeting i  who's likeness he was created in....    before that release... that nearly rule out that... unless its a relative of someone who David 8 was modeled after i.e Grandchild?

Seeing Fasbender in New Zealand and Australia around the time of shooting without his David Blonde Locks made me wonder if that theory was true..... but nope... the Badge now confirms the Covenant is newer than 2094 well at least the Crew and Mission is.. (i.e Weyland Yutani)....  maybe another David Model like the David 9 has different Hair Color?

I think having David meet a more advanced version of himself could work as a interesting Dynamic... David 9 is superior to David 8... only David 8's flaws make him Less of a Slave to company and Free.. and well what ever Engineer Technology David has played around with could make him more Advanced... or indeed Evolve David 9 to then be used in David 8's experiments.?

Some had said David 8 may have a Agenda against the Crew and Mankind and Swap Places... well i hope Shaw does a Good job or who ever else put David back together so it fools the crew as surely how are they to hide any marks from having his head torn off?

As far as David and as you say Michelle a potential other Android i.e other David having a Order 937 Mission... and so David 8 being not the Antagonist maybe this could work?

Or maybe he is a antagonist but he redeems himself in the End... but still i am torn to the Space Jockey being a relative to the Engineers, and either a Race above the Engineers/Creators of Engineers or a Race Below the Engineers and Creation...

I am drawn to the Space Jockey as being a Benevolent being or one that had done something Heroic.. but this could be in regards to his Own Kind.

Japanese Kamikaze Pilots where seen as Heroic as far as Japan goes and Perl Harbor... But to the USA there actions would have been seen as Hostile and Cowardly.

The thing is and whats interesting is every aspect and connection with the Franchise as a whole, can take any route there is NO SET path they have to take...

On the Covenant badge thread I deliberately left out any speculation about the Space Jockey. I wanted to focus on the front end rather than backing into.

The decision to remove Shaw from the narrative was a big decision and I am inclined to believe her withdrawal is connected with the decision to thread down to A L I E N. She knows far to much for that narrative movement. So how can you get the maximum output from her in this re aligned framework. The most tension would come from her being a victim but one that survives and redeems the situation - she could maintain her covenant with God.  Equally if there is a unique personality in the jockey chair whom by the grace of god has come to intervene that personality could save Shaw and fulfil her expectations of her faith. To "Hicks" her seems lame and some thing the other end of the franchise is trying to put right a point that can not be lost on Sir Ridley.

The other huge theme would be for David to find his humanity and in doing so recognises the ultimate of human qualities sacrifice for others. 

If we are backing in just being a pale guy is not enough it has to mean something so that whilst the outcome is predictable the back ground to that outcome should be fully invested. 

I understand what you are saying, with the Space Jockey.

Maybe to have it be that the Actions were Heroic and to Save Earth?  Ridley had said it was Heroic Action but maybe only as far as its own Race.

But then as you said, maybe for some it would be better that the Space Jockey is not a Engineer, but David or Shaw?   I am not sure this would be the case.... but maybe  a Engineer doing the deed, because of David or Shaw? To redeem himself (Space Jockey).

Timeframe for me is still the big issue, but nothing on-screen has said the Space Jockey has been there for any time period...  although the mild Xeno links and Alien connections (Juggernaught/Engineer Suits) and how prior to 2000 years ago LV-223 was a Outpost that was going well...  to me could link to the events being connected as far as in History and Past... i.e thousands of years ago.

But it does not rule out, using some kind of Time Shift/Travel to allow the events of Prometheus/Covenant to link to Alien.

I think to not have more clues to what the Mural, Frescos meant in Prometheus, and more about Engineers in particular the Questions Shaw wanted to ask...  to have these not covered would be a Waste!

Also to kill Shaw off, and not show How ever would be Lame, to not even mention her at all ever... i.e so we dont know if she died, where she went NOTHING would be far worse.

Big Dave: I can understand the Deacon connection to the Xeno but the Hammerpedes were just confusing and were straight up unnecessary I think. Did they show the Hammerpedes to show that the Xeno could have different relatives or something? It didn’t make a lot of sense to me, the Squid and Deacon connection did however.

To say that the Deacon and Hammerpede made the first Xeno just seems dumb to me. There were not enough clues in Prometheus I think, if they would have kept the Xeno Fifield that would have helped a lot. I don’t say that the movie was impossible to understand but it wasn’t as well explained as it could have been. The Prometheus movie that I have watched gave the Engineer a face burn after he was biting the Squid so that made sense to me.

As far as infecting a machine, maybe it is organic life but that its existence is like a machine, mechanic (as a metaphor). I don’t know. It could be interesting if it would explain the bio mechanical nature of the Xeno but I wonder how they will do that but I doubt that it would can be made in a way that is kind of logical maybe you can explain that better. Maybe I have missed something.

I think as far as the time line and space travel and so on I think that there might be some accident that the Engineers didn’t even thought would happen (the Alien on LV-426 I mean if that is what you hinted at). You can plan your technology (its purpose and so on) but there is always a risk that you miss something. This happens to humans and it would probably happen to the Engineers because I don’t buy the idea that they are perfect because if they would then the scenario with LV-426 wouldn’t have happened.

Yes I think that the Space Jockey is something similar to the Engineers. I don’t buy that it is a human, that would be too disappointing if it was.

@ Big Dave

Space Jockey

Now that we are "backing in" rather than being offered methodology the Jockey has to be part of the story rather than emblematic.

If it is a benign jockey you have to build that notion with an audience other wise it becomes a dot plot movie. We have to be emotionally invested in it and "feel" the heroism. With a movie to follow introducing a specific engineer who we come to know is not impossible.

If it is someone whom we know "their spirit" but radically changed but still identifiable we would be intrigued by that transformation and their ownership of the challenge.

I want to throw a complete spanner in here. Benjamin Rigby was hired in October so belongs to the Paradice Lost/Covenant phase and he made what might be an important point and I quote "Because there's an end result being the original Alien, it has to connect". 

Ridley has said there maybe one two movies after Covenant this maybe a smoke screen given he would have to have an outline to get there I wonder if Benjamin is telling us Covenant is the link between Prom and  A L I E N. People working in Sydney have clarified there not working on three of Scott's movies but one again may mean nothing or something.

If so  the idea of a transformed radically different re engineered D8 or Shaw taking off in the Croissant and crash landing the deadly cargo would rise in my view.    

Questions

As to your questions that need answering the reason why the Zeno, we know that is in, and giving context to that decision can tell us a good deal more about the Engineers and of course its in the original title P L and Milton's poem we know there is a fall and that suggests a desire to sub create "in order to create first we must destroy" .

If I am right those who wanted a much more detailed account of the mythos of the Engineers maybe disappointed. The way your diagram of all this worked for me is the answers are from the Mankind/Zeno end of the telescope with the Engineers down the other end. To switch the telescope round and look back from the Engineers could take away the mystery and is more jeopardy for a tent pole movie that needs human character to sell. I like my gods and semi gods to remain remote veiled in a mist.  One of the reasons the acolyte was a lone finger and the elders withdrawn was to add mystery and intrigue I like that. The same logic was applied to removing the Engineer Dialogue offer the least amount to make the point.  

Yes interesting view of it all Michelle  and we cant rule out what they are going to do as far as the Connection or Time Line of it..

While since Alien and After Prometheus clues was that the event occurred a long time ago, and was a Space Jockey/Engineer.

There is no 100% Proof if we only go by what is scene on Film and so they can take this anyway they want.

They have hinted a number of different ways to the connections over the years, and so things either changing or they was not quite sure how to Tackle it.

But i think they do now have a PLAN and they would want to cover this to completion by the time they make the Final Movie in the prequel.

So Ridleys comments over the years  that point to a few thousands of years ago and a being related to the Engineers who was carrying a deadly Cargo.

And Lindeloffs the Deacon is a Proto Xeno and Hammerpedes are connected in some way to the Origins...

Cant not be take as either being what we shall be shown.

@ Thoughts_Dreams

The Hammerpedes where to show us the Goo, Evolves what ever life it comes into contact with,.. it takes the best Genetic Traits of those Organisms, and then evolves the rest with Xeno DNA.

Shaws Squid was more Xeno, because the base Organism that was infected was a Unfertilized Human Egg, which meant less DNA to Reprogram and Evolve.

I would assume if Shaw was already a few months Pregnant before bieng infected with Xeno DNA and this DNA infected the Baby then we would have ended up with something like the Alien 3 New Born

Well other concepts..

Big Dave:

When I watched Prometheus a while before my intention was to understand how the Deacon was born at the end. For some reason I don't think that the Hammerpedes are necessary, they are more confusing and like a side-track.

One problem with Lindelof is that he puts in things that don't make sense so you got to throw out some of the things that he adds in order for things to make sense. For me the Xeno connection was interesting in Prometheus. What I am hinting at is that Lindelof seems to complicate things and while the Hammerpede did so then maybe it was Lindelof's idea to have it there.

Alright so the Hammerpedes are affected by the goo but what is the connection between the Hammerpedes and the Deacon/proto-Xeno except for acid for blood? This is my problem with the Hammerpede, it doesn’t make sense as far as the Deacon or Xenos are concerned.

For me the Deacon was made from Squid + Engineer. The Squid was from Shaw. Did the Hammerpedes had anything to do with that? Maybe not, I am not sure if that is very likely.

The whole process was to show The Black Goo, in those Urns is somewhat connected to Xeno DNA.

The movie originally tried to show us these Connections, that Black Goo + Genetic Material = Hybrid of Original Organism and Xeno DNA

The Changes to Concept, and cuts to the movie made it confusing.... if we looked at the Sacrificial Scenes in Both Spaights and Lindeloffs draft then Fifield Scenes in the drafts (no the movie) and find common ground between Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs and Urns Goo/Scarabs then the connection is much more easy to see.

Compare these, and if these was shown and not the Toxic Avenger Fifield....

And we had seen more of the Trilobite scene, as you have to wonder how Originally the Engineer got burnt... i have covered this before...

Then the Xeno connection is more simple.. its not a mess

Alien Engineers (Spaights) Fifield After Transformation

"The label stencilled on the space suit reads FIFIELD. But the
face is of no human shape. A hideous hybrid of the crewman
and a hard-shelled Alien, pale and horrific.
Its helmet has been shattered by the growth of its elongate
skull. Spines have burst through the suit from within, down
the crewman’s spine. Clawed fingers piercing his gloves."

Paradise (Lindeloff) Fifield after Transformation

"We only get quick glimpses of what was once FIFIELD -- It
moves so damn FAST -- It’s BIG though -- FERAL AND ANGRY"

"FIFIELD turns his attention on them -- NARROW ELONGATED HEAD
that has PUNCHED THROUGH THE HELMET OF HIS TATTERED SPACESUIT
-- GREY GLISTENING SKIN -- HE RISES TO HIS FULL HEIGHT"

Concept Works above...  Actual Worked on Props Below.

The drafts even describe the transformation scenes, with Spaights being more detailed.

"FLASH ON:
The microscopic world - as strange DNA invades Fifield’s
bloodstream. Virulent strands of protein attack the native
DNA, transforming...
FIFIELD
As his pupils dilate, breath hissing into his nostrils. His
expanding body stiffens as if shocked by a powerful electric
current. He screams. Falls, convulsing."

This would have been my chosen one though..

Interesting thing about this concept and prop is you can connect it to the Fresco Creature.   more than the Xenomorph.

For me the zeno mythos has alway been an exploration  of the reproductive cycle without a moral compass. Life is created come what may. This is entirely separate from mankind's mythos where we create through consensual and pleasurable bonding. We are programmed to enjoy the pro creative act (though child birth itself has its moments !)

I have always felt the Alien was about amoral reproduction. For me the drawing in of the promethean myth and the film enhanced and deepened that mythos.

The little worm became a virulent vaginal headed monster.

The black goo brought unspeakable pain and anguish to both Fifield and Holloway. If left would the black goo have reorganised both their DNA and created a drone i do not think so but certainly an early stage mindless destructive creature. But of course the cycle begun with Holloway to Shaw was a clear forerunner of the more perfect life cycle which would have ended with all hosts destroyed on the way to the Deacon who interestingly I think we assume to be a Queen (through Shaw).

In Covenant we will see the life cycle perfected and it would make enormous philosophical sense for that to be achieved by an amoral creature with out a moral compass. Intimately connecting D8 with the mythos of the zeno (procreation with out morality) does not feel like fan service it feels like what might have happened.  

By Fan Service i mean that i think when you look at the way Spaights draft was changed for Lindeloffs both had a similar back bone...

Lindeloffs was to explore the Engineer and Creation concepts more and tone down the Xeno and LV-426, Lindeloffs was trying to show us the Engineers/Space Jockeys where more than a Race who just Create Bio-Weapons to unleash on Worlds.

I worry they are not going back to Spaights idea but where as Lindeloff evolved the Engineers and toned down the Xeno.... they are not going to explore the Xeno and tone down the Engineers

some fans did not like Prometheus because it never answered the Space Jockey and Derelict or showed us how the Xeno was made or had any Xenos in it.

and so when i hear them now going for a More Xeno movie and even links to Ripley... which they said the Franchise is about Ripley.... well i am concerned.

Prometheus sent me down a path, Spaights clues in his draft helped me to narrow a path....  but now they are going the route that there is only ONE GOO...  maybe that depending on the motives of those using it or those who are infected... it can create or destroy.

I was drawn to the Engineers Sacrificing something they accidentally created (Deacon Mural) to create a Black Goo that carries its DNA this was the Perfect Organism and so this Organisms DNA to them was more Perfect than the Engineers own.

Now seems the Mural would be shown as a History tale of how the Xeno came to be.... and so like a Prophecy.

Big Dave:

Yeah the goo had something to do with it although I can’t say that I totally understood totally how it worked when I saw it the first times. I understood it better after I did some reading about it and watched some videos where they were trying to explain it. A movie where you need to search for threads and where you need a Blu-ray with extra material to understand it is partially a failure (not totally) but the worst thing about Prometheus was the characters. Since this post isn’t about the characters I will stop about the characters here.

The goo seems to be a mutagen of some sort but it was too weak in how it explained the Xeno connection. I am not against the idea of the goo but it could have been explained better. Someone is to blame for the weak explanation of the process and that someone could be Fox or Ridley mostly I guess. As a side note I wonder how the goo is turned into acid, but maybe that is an unnecessary side note since the whole thing is about the goo and Xeno DNA but the Xeno isn’t acid only so.

Maybe the scarabs would have been better since they had acid in them also if you compare it to the Xeno but I am not totally against the idea of the goo.

I am very disappointed in how they did the Fifield transformation (Zombie version in the movie) even the version that you preferred even though it wasn’t as Xeno as the one I think of was better. Here is my preferred Fifield version:

http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/jokerdeldesierto/media/ac_02.jpg.html

OK so Fifield had grey skin in Lindelof’s version so the movie Fifield isn’t his idea? I wonder if it was Ridley that made it worse?

The idea that Lindelof had to tone down the Xeno connection could have worked a bit if they wouldn’t have had so much stupid stuff in it. I don’t say that all bad things in the movie are Lindelof’s fault but they should have kept more of Spaight’s ideas. To explore the Engineers isn’t a bad idea in itself but it should have had a clearer connection to the Xeno and the Engineers role in the Xeno. My wish is that (as far as the next movie is concerned) that they are both exploring the Xeno and the Engineers but that they pay more attention to the Xeno the next time without it being a pure Xeno movie. As far as the Engineers go you got to make them interesting and not make them into random angry big guys but explain them better otherwise they will look like random big guys that go on a rampage after their team looses the final in super-bowl (LOL!).

Yeah Prometheus didn’t answer the Xeno very well or the Space Jockey either. There are things in the movie that I like and things that I don’t like but it was a disappointment compared to how it could have been for example the characters and especially Shaw since she had a big part in the movie. If they do Alien Covenant well and make smart links back to Prometheus then maybe Prometheus makes more sense despite its many flaws (like: “Oh, OK now I understand why they did that”). Hopefully that is what they will do to an extent so then people might understand Prometheus better and even if the movie has flaws. Maybe they could use David for that so when they see things there David might say “yes we saw that on the planet LV-223, there were…” and then he explains what happened on LV-223 and how it connects to what happens in Alien Covenant and the Alien franchise in general.

My biggest disappointment about the characters was probably Shaw because she was supposed to be the lead person but they made her annoying and dumb (“It is what I choose to believe” “It is not a map it is an invitation”). She also said that there should be no weapons, does she even know what security measures are? I hope that we will see very little of her.

As far as Ripley goes I am not primarily interested in her story. I am interested in the Engineers and their connection to the Xeno. This includes if the Engineers have made other monsters also but please don’t make the Alien/Prometheus franchise about Ripley because it shouldn’t be.

Sorry for the long reply

@Big Dave

General

There are two requirements that views of Prometheus and speculations about A C revolve around. 

Are the characters in the foreground believable and relatable and does their arc make sense and draw us in rather than distract. 

Is the underlying history and mythos they are exploring coherent, clear and well developed and come across as original and thought provoking.

Where I think Prometheus took risks is offering a palimpsest of information both in and outside of the movie. The creation of the Weyland Files and the Ted Talk help clarify and develop our understanding, that kind of presentation is counter intuitive to modern life where everything is reduced to soundbites and reduced to what can fit on a T shirt. 

Black Goo

Right now I would say their is the benign catalyser the seeding agent we see at the beginning. However LV223 was an attempt to add another strain into the catalyser and perfect it (akin to steroids). The black goo in the temple represented that achievement and it was set before the head as an offering of achievement. One of their experiments included merging their DNA  with the strain through the lifecycle described on the mural and they created a deacon, thought better of it and sacrificed it, and we see its tomb in the movie.    

At the same time it was going viral, there appears to have ben a mass polluting of the Engineer population, our exploding head friend,  they decided to intervene in man kinds development and create a noah moment. But it was done not as an act to start again a fresh start but a different start. The Engineers on LV223 were fallen angels, everything about their goo's outcome leads to a zeno-characteristic outcome and when the Prometheus appeared with its mixture of human vanities, incautiousness and hubris the surviving engineer was more clear than ever that they need to be wiped out and replaced with their own black goo strain.    

What is fascinating to me is for Covenant a Croissant is arriving with a big idea David bringing Hell and a lot of zeno black goo. Who is lucifer and who are angels in this movement, Certainly by the time our friends turn up on the handily named Covenant that movement will have been achieved. Had they fallen or were they pushed ? 10 years no "Shaw" that we can recognise ,David playing Lucifer? we shall see.        

David as "Lucifer". Lucifer was highly plausible and could fool the easily fooled and can be played as the seemingly good guy whose ideas are interfered with. This idea was something caryn and I were discussing that Daniels and D 9 her puppet may look like bad guys from the start against David's seemingly good guy. So when its clear they are all bad guys and the Covenant crew is collatoral damage who is the good guy ?   

Yes Michelle thats interesting, and as far as " One of their experiments included merging their DNA  with the strain through the lifecycle described on the mural and they created a deacon, thought better of it and sacrificed it, and we see its tomb in the movie."

I was going along those lines, too i have covered all aspects of this in depth and well its a very very very large read.  So i will try and make it in a Nutshell

*Sacrificial Goo  some Mutagen or maybe even Parasite Life form, that attacks the DNA of Organic Life it comes into contact with.  It breaks down the Genetic Material of a Organism and then stores this Genetic Information within itself and also acts as a Evolutionary Accelerant.

The Mutagen/Parasite now becomes a New Substance that has Genetic Material of the Host/Sacrifice it has consumed its DNA from and this new Substance when it comes into contact with a New Organism will infect its DNA and seed the DNA that it is carrying (via Organism it consumed).  This passes on those stored DNA traits and particular the most Evolutionary Strongest Traits onto the Target and thus causes the Targets DNA to now be a Hybrid of the best DNA Traits of the Organism it (Mutagen/Parasite) consumed and the best traits of the Organisms infected.  It Merges the best parts of both Organisms DNA and also acts as a Evolutionary Accelerant.

Example.... introduce a Dog to the Sacrificial Goo and it break down its Genetic Material to form a new Material Substance that when it infects say a Human we then get a Dog/Human Hybrid i.e a Werewolf.

*Urn Goo this is the stored new Genetic Mutagen/Parasite that has consumed DNA of something related to the Xenomorph.  The Engineers have used the Sacrificial Goo to harness the DNA of such a creature  so that they can use this DNA in various Experiments and also as a way to Evolve life on Earth into Life that has this Xeno related DNA.

*Mural i think shows they had either created or encountered and experimented on a Organism related to the Xenomorph until they had achieved a result they saw as having Perfect DNA, more Perfect DNA than a Engineers and thus Seed Worlds with the Xeno related DNA Bio-former is seen as superior to their own DNA.

Where the Xeno Origins connect is anyone's guess, the Xeno is either a Organism created from some Original Organism or Creation... or Xeno related Organisms come from the Xenomorph.

Was the Xeno Progenitor a Weapon or Punishment meant for the Rogue Engineers, that failed... and so these Rogue Engineers Perverted and used this on their fellow kind of creators.... and then Perverted the use of the Evolutionary Mutagen/Parasite Creation Tool (Sacrificial Goo) to then create a Abomination

something New that these Engineers saw as being superior to their OWN DNA and Creators... and so instead of creating life in their image, they now pervert that by creating life in the image of the Dragon/Serpent/Eagle that is the Xenomorph Progenitor.

The Clues are their to support this from Star Beast, Alien, Prometheus as far as the Spaights and Lindeloffs draft....

Its only after Post Production they changed their minds and tried to explain the Goo in a different way, they never had a Set in Stone base rules that Govern everything to do with the Xeno and Engineers and so they kind of go along and change and make things up as they go along.

"Yeah Prometheus didn’t answer the Xeno very well or the Space Jockey either."

The Clues are there, maybe they are coincidence or not?  But things could be changed now as they just make stuff up as they go along.... when they set out to make a Alien Prequel they had ideas but then they have not had a SET IN STONE Base Rule of Thumb

*Space Jockey the movie has shown the Derelict and Juggernaughts are very similar if not the same, the Space Jockey and Engineers Bio-Suits are similar if not the same.

The connection was made... it was like.... see these Engineers, they had been messing about creating or experimenting on life throughout the Galaxy, and then for some reason they was experimenting with something that was related to the Xenomorph, that was being used as a Bio-Weapon on those Ships but 2000 years ago something happened...  and it caused the death of nearly all of them.

We can then look at clues to be drawn to that these Experiments on LV-223 are either something carried out on what ever the Space Jockey was carrying years before.... or the Space Jockey was carrying results of those experiments years after.

This is what i was drawn to, prior to Ridleys comments which he suggested the Space Jockey event happened within a few hundred years of the Outbreak that caused all of those dead Engineers in Prometheus.

Thus we was looking at a 1800-2200 years prior event, that was connected to and for similar purpose as what was going on down on LV-223 at some point in time.

However they could be going for a U-Turn on that, and anything goes...

I just hope at the end we get a Story that is coherent, plausible, makes sense and fits in with everything.

Oh Thoughts_Dreams.... that CGI Fifield i liked better than what we got, you could make out maybe this Fifield was on his way to changing into something similar to the other concepts i posted.

@BD

"I just hope at the end we get a Story that is coherent, plausible, makes sense and fits in with everything".

We have come along way since the original question was posed. There seems to be a measure of agreement that if the prequels are not tangental but instead backing in, Shaw has to be used sparingly. I am all so struck by another one of Ridders announcements that there are three plot strands to the movie.

The Covenant and its crew.

The Engineers/Zeno  

David & Shaw (a small part) and when he made this point David was considered 3rd act rather than what the film was about.    

If this is correct then the background plot is going to emerge very slowly.

We, the audience, and Covenant are flying into a mystery and what we need is a really coherent expose of the mystery. We can have some jeopardy and uncertainty but Covenant needs to deliver answers in the manner you indicated.

I have to say given the synopsis I think David comes in quicker than that and because Shaw is inert he can hold on to the mystery much longer than if she had been around.      

Yes could be, and some reports are that Rappace will not be in the movie as far as shooting any scenes... and Fasbenders David 8 also has only a smaller role.. but he is playing a doppelganger.

How much Screen time he gets is unknown, but we know that a lot of the movie will revolve around the Crew of the Covenant who arrive in the first Act, and the movie is not a Space Suit movie.. which means a lot would be on the surface of a habitable world or aboard the Covenant Ship.

I still think Michael Biehn's comment regarding Alien Covenant being set THOUSANDS of years prior to Aliens is interesting.

As far as multiple Plots the source i had had said such a thing prior to Ridley saying so too....  the source explained it as Prometheus had 2X Plots....  One being the Sacrificial Scene the other Prometheus Crew... he said the Finding of the Cave Painting could be another Plot but he said this was one that connected to the Prometheus missions Plot.

Interesting they said the movie would have TWO Xenomorphs both different to each other but both similar to the Xenomorph and ONE was from a new event (after Prometheus) caused by David and the other a OLD Event.

This was at the time when Ridley said there would be No Xenos, and the movie would be stepping away from Alien as the beast is cooked..

Now there is no way to prove now this information was legit.... as it seems the draft is changed. it would be like if someone had read Spaights Alien Engineers and passed information on it around the Web, but there was never Spaights Draft released to read and back those claims up... So unless a Green/Paglen Draft comes to light we would never know...

But this cant rule out some elements.... such as multiple Plots... and so yes maybe we could see Flash Back Scenes like the Sacrificial Scene set thousands of years ago?

Maybe David starts to Narrate whats going on and we then Flash to a Actual Scene from the past?

 Big Dave: First I would like to say thanks for the discussion. It is nice to debate with other geeks. :D

Second: what I mean is that there are answers in the movie but you got to pay attention. I had to write down what was going on in order to understand the Xeno connection and also about the Space Jockey. Another point that I am trying to make is that they could have explained things better for those that are not willing to lay the pussel to understand things (so to speak) but that is bad writing or bad editing of the movie (one of those). When you try to explain things you go to make it less vague or else the explanation leaves much to be desired to say the least.

The outbreak would be interesting to see how that happened.

Yes I also hope that we will get a movie (Alien Covenant) that is less confusing and that has better characters. Better characters compared to Prometheus is a must or else I guess that it will be a failure. I don't say that they need to be extremely simplifying when they try to explain the Space Jockey-Xeno connection but they need to do better than what they did with Prometheus.

Fifield's turn into a monster could have been so much better, that was a disappointment. If they will do something similar or that reminds of it in Alien Covenant I hope that they will not go with the Zombie route but rather something more Xeno-looking.

I am glad that Rappace won't be in it or at least have smaller role but I hope that they will give David some scenes since he was one of the good things about Prometheus. Rapace might not be a bad actress but I didn't like the Shaw character. To be fair I haven't watched many movies that she is in. Hopefully they will give David some scenes but I am also interested in the new crew. If they will make the characters better this time I think that the new crew members can be interesting.

Hopefully they will have different monsters and not only the old one. I wonder how the new one will look. If I remember it correctly (which I can't guarantee) they said something that one would be like a jellyfish or something. A jellyfish monster could be interesting to see which would also be something new.

 "I just hope at the end we get a Story that is coherent, plausible, makes sense and fits in with everything."

Exactly, I hope that they think about that this time.

Yes there was clues but you had to really look hard for them and you had to use other drafts and Star Beast to get some understanding...

Without that the clues were vague and ambiguous, the edit of the movie and things changed and left out also added to being a bit of a mess.

As far as the Monsters... Ridley has never came out about that.... The source i had told me about it.

At the time Ridley was on about no more Xenomorphs, and Beast was cooked... and they are step away from Alien.

But the source said... nope there are Two Monsters in the movie as far as Xenomorphs, they are different to each other but when we try and connect them to the Xenomorph we can see they both connect.. One is from a New event caused by David.

One is very much like the Giger Necromon 4, and similar to the Unused Ultra morph.... and they are going for it to be more see through than the Xenomorphs, and so it would be like a Jellyfish in that the Exoskeleton is see through.

Weeks latter, Ridley came out and said they are going to re-introduce a fresher form of the Alien, a fresher form of the Original Alien in the 3rd Act.

So it would appear the ONE Monster would have been similar to this..

We can see that some of Prometheus Concept work the creatures where also more white, and translucent than we got on Screen and they did intend to have the Xeno in Alien in such a way but could not make it work.

Maybe they was going back to something based off the Giger Work that inspired Giger to create something for Alien...  combined with trying to attempt the Transparent Nature that they could not achieve in Alien due to Technical Restrictions at the time.

So i think the idea is something like this

Compared to more like how the Xenomorph was like this

Here is one of the Prometheus Concepts and you can kind of see the Translucent head,  but i think they was going for the whole Creature being the same..

In Alien they did work on this... but it was scraped for the Non Translucent version

At the time i was told about the Translucent Monster i was not aware that they had made a Translucent Xenomorph suit in Alien so that was a nice surprise after a member on here pointed that out.

Necra released a New Toy based off the Original Idea

 Big Dave:

Well that is one of my complaints about the movie, how many even bothered to look up old drafts? I didn’t so they made a bad choice to rely on them.

I remember that you wrote something about David wanting to play God so I guess that the new Xeno will be connected to that. It is interesting that they will connect to the Xeno but not be the same since we have seen it many times although I don’t think that it needs to be as similar as the Deacon was.

What I am wondering is if David knows that the monster is dangerous or if he is just curios and doesn’t count on the fact that it might be or if he counts on it but doesn’t care. This could tell a bit about David’s motivations and how he functions so it has a potential to be very interesting.

A jelly fish monster mixed with the Ultra-morph could be interesting. There are potentially many versions of the Xeno so they don’t need to have the same old. I can come up with many versions in my mind what I mean is that there are many possibilities for new monsters but let’s see what they will do.

Sometimes I wonder if Ridley has a problem to make up his mind or if he is just messing with people. I don’t know him and I am skeptical to what the media writes so I don’t know.

Hopefully they will go back to more Giger-like monsters to honor Giger, that would be nice.

Thanks for posting the pictures, they were interesting.

I like to think that Shaw is technically not dead because she is an egg. That David made her into an egg, and 'introduces' one of the covenant crew to her. :D

Aorta:

Something like this? ;)

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/smiling-egg-8855521.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)

Yes we dont know what becomes of Shaw....  we dont know the Plans...

There is a Gap Missing from Departing LV-223 (can we assume Shaw left at the end of Prometheus? and how does David get to Paradise without Shaws help?)

But i dont think we are to be shown the events of post Jan 1st 2094 until when the Covenant Arrives?

The Shaw Technically Not Dead, was a remark made by the source i had at the time when the Hell on Earth and Shaw dies Leaks came about. The source said the movie is not a Hell on Earth and not based on Earth as far as after Prometheus and Prior to Alien and Shaw does not Technically Die.... But they did not explain as it was a Major Plot Point.

But we cant be sure if any of this was TRUE

What we do know is Rappace, is not credited in the movie, she will not be part of the Cast as far as Shooting for the movie.

When asked if she is in the Movie, Rappace was very Coy, but her Expressions did seem she knew something.....

So yes SHAW could play a Role, a Small Role is what was first Reported.. after Covenant Name Change...  but Rappace is not Shooting...

Alien 3 Michael Biehn  and Carrie Henn where not Cast in that Movie at all...... But Hicks and Newt appeared in the Movies Plot they was in the movie...  they where DEAD! They did not neen Biehn or Henn to play Dead Hicks/Newt..

So maybe its similar?

Bishop was a Animatronic... until Micheal Bishop turned up.... had they decided to not involve Micheal Bishop who was a Human (assumed) who created Bishop Android...

Then Lance Henriksen would only be needed for Voice only...

So just as they made a a Synthetic Fasbender Prop for Prometheus..  Think Madame Tussauds then having a Shaw in such a way, be that Dead, or Cryo Sleep or just as a Prop to be used in a Plot Device like the Engineer Chest Buster Scene...

Then Shaw can play a Small Role, but not have Rappace needed in the movie at all....

Another thing at the time of the Prometheus Hell on Earth!  Name came out...  the source said that Prometheus Name was going to be dropped.. and they was toying with Paradise Lost, or Pandemonium as the name or a Combination... but Prometheus would be dropped...

What we got Months later was Alien: Paradise Lost and links to Paradise Poem in which Paradise and Pandemonium play a Massive Role... so the source was pretty close with that... as at the time i got the information.... Ridley had not said the movie is based on Paradise Lost.

it was based on following David and Shaw to go to the Engineers Homeworld for Answers, but finding not Gods, but non Benevolent Beings more related to Fallen Angels.  And a movie that would be stepping away from Alien and the Beast thats Cooked...

Yet the source had said nope the movie  has more Alien Links than Prometheus.