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@CarynParnall

 Yes interesting and we cant rule such out, i think maybe the Company knows a bit more who knows?  But if we look at the Synopsis but then also what Ridley has said....

 It seems The First Act is about the Covenant Crew, they arrive and land on Paradise and Eventually find David, i dont think maybe they detect him right away....  Things go bad in the 3rd Act.

 Gathering all the information points to David 8 not being as big a role as the Covenant Crew... but that just maybe means the Role David from Prometheus had.... and so Fassbender could play a lot on screen in the other Doppelganger role?

 We have had rumours of Gun Fight involving Weyland Security and seeing the Trilobite or similar from Prometheus in the movie, but none of these have been 100% Confirmed.

But what is Confirmed is at some point in the movie we shall see Xenomorph related Organisms and Full Life Cycle... is this event after the Covenant Ships Crew set foot on Paradise, or a event in the past (Flash Back) we dont know... but there is bound to be at least a event that leads to Xenomorph DNA Monster/s that come into contact with the Crew.

 We know for a Fact they are remaking a Big Head Statue but is this one they find on Paradise... or from a Flash Back?

 One other Major Fact is we see what seems to be a Lander/Shuttle that is on the surface to Paradise that is blown up... we dont know at what point this happens...  But maybe its after they come across David? maybe David causes something to STRAND the Crew or some of them on the surface to Paradise.

 So a portion of the Movie could be about the Covenant Crew, onboard the Ship then setting foot on Paradise and exploring before the £$!$" Hits the Fan!

 Like if we look at when Prometheus Crew where woken Up from Cryosleep to when they returned from the Temple after the Urns started to Leak.....

 And Alien from when again the Crew woke from Cryosleep to when they found Kane and brought him back onto the Ship...

 These parts of those Movies form the getting familiar with the Crew and Exploration Phase.... before the next part where they try to figure out what they have discovered at the end of that initial exploration phase.

 I am thinking Maybe Covenants similar phase would last longer than that of Alien and Prometheus and take up the whole First 3rd or Quarter of the movie i.e 24-33%

“The Covenant could be an incredibly fast state-of-the-art ship like the Prometheus was, although maybe it's an older one that departs from a distant outpost.”

 I was thinking maybe the same but now we know the Covenant Mission is a Weyland-Yutani one it happens after 2094 but prior to 2104....  while we cant maybe take every bit of Data as Fact, and the Movies and Weyland Site does offer a contradiction... so i am going with the Movies.

 Prometheus seems to have a upto 20X Speed of Light Speeds....  This Class of Vessel was the Jewel in the Companies Crown as of 2091 and was first launched in 2073, with the Covenant being a Post Company Merger Ship if we look at the Speed of Prometheus and assume at the time of Prometheus this was the fastest ship (or why would Weyland not use another?) if we assume and give or take 2 years for the Company Merger  so say 2096 that leaves 8 years and a Maximum Range of 160 LY Travel Assuming at that time Prometheus Class Speeds where the fastest other could travel.

 If we take the next ship in the Franchise the Nostramo... Launched in 2101 we see the Nostramo could make the LV-426  journey to Earth in 10 months which puts the Ship at a Speed of about 47X Speed of Light, lets assume 50X FTL and then,  assume other Ships made around that time 2100 have similar Speeds, then by the time Covenant arrives at Paradise its range Assuming it left in 2100 or about would be between 150-200LY Range.

 But we cant rule out Probes leaving Prior but it would be Safe to Assume that Probes would be no Faster than Prometheus at 20X FTL provided they was sent out prior to say 2093..... but this would not rule out them being able to travel far if they was sent out prior to Prometheus in 2091 but i think it would be a massive Coincidence if Probes got close and surveyed Paradise prior to when David got the Co-ordinates in Prometheus.

To expand upon what you said CarynParnall the Weyland Viral Site does state that the Ship uses a Yutani Communications Technology this seems to be one of the areas that Yutani is renowned for in the Back Story... also the Prometheus viral Video Quiet Eye seems to show Shaw was trying to contact Weyland via a Communication Technology that Yutani either produced, or have hacked into.

So there is no saying that any information and logs from Prometheus could not have been encoded in a way and sent back to Yutani and not received by Weyland and this could proved useful in Forcing a Merger.

So with regards to the Alien Universe i would say the NSA has nothing on Yutani if you know what i mean.

So the company could Merge, and be going about expanding on Weylands Building Better Worlds.... but with Yutani having more information and a Agenda and sending the Helpless Covenant crew on a Mission where the Crew do not know what the real Agenda is.

As far as how the Covenant discovers David or does not discover him, and having something effect the sensors, we cant be sure... But Prometheus had trouble being able to detect what was going on inside that Temple without the use of the Pup Probes, in Alien the Nostramo could not detect what was going on too, but maybe its Static Interference in the Atmospheres?  Or the Engineer Ships and Temple Mounds can not be penetrated by Human Scans at that time.

What state Paradise is would be interesting, we had to wonder how by coincidence in Prometheus from every Square KM of LV-223 Surface they just happened to pick the spot right near the Temple Mounds....  the same is with Alien and how close the Nostramo landed to the Derelict.

How much of Paradise has remains of Engineer Civilization is the World Populated like Earth... i doubt it as far as modern times, but who knows if certain areas where as Populated as say North America or South America was 500+ years ago.

Why does the Covenant land or send down a Lander/Shuttle at that one point we see from the leaked Shooting on Set?

Do they not detect any remains of a Ancient Culture, how far away is any such remains from the Landing Zone and where has David stashed the Juggernaught are all Questions we have no Answers to yet.

"Mankind would at least need to be conquered by machines like in the Matrix, if not entirely destroyed, to ensure the machines' position in the hierarchy"

Now i can pick up on the little discussion you are all having about this and other things as far as David goes..

The source i had did say Matrix Theme was Evident in the Drafts of 2014 but that does not mean the Crew and Mankind are in a Cryosleep Dream controlled by Engineers..... nope Matrix had backbone story beyond that.

There are a lot of great ideas about David and his intentions but i think we need to look at it more Basic.

*David is a Synthetic Creation of Mankind.

His role is to Serve, he has no Rights like a Human, he is expendable and merely a Tool for the use of Mankind to perform tasks that would be Difficult, Dangerous or even Unethical for a Human.

*David has no Soul...

For all the Advantages David has, he may never Die, provided he is maintained (David 8 can self maintain) he never has a Soul.... He is not Mortal, has no Soul and while he has some Emotions and Understandings, and maybe he has more than the Company would like (Problems with the Programing Software?) 

David can not have as deep feelings as Mankind, he can not truly have as deep dreams or ambitions as Mankind... but he shows some signs of Pleasure in Things and Resentment against things... i.e his fondness of Lawence of Arabia Movie, his dis-content for Humans and his Father (Weyland).

David is still Logical... and so he has no Faith, in things based of Faith Alone.... such as Shaws Faith in God.

*David is set Free!

David seems to be governed by Weyland, and shows signs that he wishes to act independent and maybe as Weylands Personal Android, he was given more Freewill than a Synthetic Should be allowed...

David is perhaps more (LORE, as opposed to DATA from Star Trek).  

Now that Davids Father (Weyland) is dead he feels that he is now finally free to explore his own desires and Agenda.

*David is superior yet Jealous.

Technologically David is superior to Mankind, Strength, Speed, Resilience, Intelligence he is not Mortal, he does not posses True Deep Feelings and a Soul or Moral Compass that Mankind does, but he does have Emotions, just not as deep as Humans.

While he is superior in many ways and is not Mortal, he does have a dislike for some of the Human Traits that he may never have, and more so in how he is viewed by Mankind as merely a Robot.

David is offended somewhat as apart from not having a Soul he is superior to Humans in every way.

===========================

The Engineers may have had similar connection to their Creators?  Similar Role, but they also Rebelled because they thought they was worth more than being a Tool.? Who knows.

Here is what David now Knows...

*He is superior to Mankind. but he does not have Faith or a Soul...

Humans believe they have Souls, they are Children of God a Divine being who created them and that when we die we get to Live for ever in another Pane of Existence.

David does not have such Logic, as Faith, he may see Humans as merely Flesh and Blood Mortal Life Forms who have no real importance.

*David has met our Gods

Prometheus mission to meet our potential creators proved that creation was maybe not as Divine or Special as we would have thought, our creators are no GODS and they are not IMMORTAL

Now that David is Free from his Creator (Weyland) he has seen our Creators (Engineers) are also Mortal After all, and while they may be advanced and stronger, they are no Gods

*David has a understanding of the Engineers Agenda!

He may have been able to decipher more about the Engineers than we saw on the Movie, he sees these Engineers are Mortal, they are Advanced, but they are not Magical or Divine, they posses Technology and Tools that allow them to be so Advance and Create Life

The Sacrificial Scene shows via a Tool (Sacrificial Goo) the Engineers use this Tool to create Life, they have many other Tools, that the Engineers have used and some of these are the experiments on LV-223 that led to the downfall of those Mortal Engineers. Without these Technological Advancements and Tools are the Engineers merely just Stronger Humans who would be like Modern Day Goliath's in the year 2100 approx... compared to Early Mankind of say 2000 BC...  we are more Advanced and Powerful compared to Humans 4000 years ago... just Physically the Same.

===========================

Knowing all of this David is Free, Sees himself as more superior to Mankind, and then he sees Mankinds creators are also Mortal, and its their Advanced Technology that gives them the Edge...

And so what would a Advanced being like David become now he is Free and if he could Yield all that Technology....  David could now be a God, a Creator and maybe he sees ours and the Engineers Mortality as a Weakness..

Maybe David wants to create something not as Mortal, not as Flesh and Blood.... maybe he wants to create something more Perfect than Mankind... in his own image or using some of the Non-Synthetic Properties he has?

I think this could well be the Case.... David now sees himself as Free, and with the Tools of the Engineers he can surpass even them.... and become GOD

so CarynParnall  to finish with... We dont know who created the Engineers, and this is what Shaw wants to know for her own personnel reasons...

David is not interested in them, he would also like to meet these Creators above the Engineers if they exist so he can truly find out if there are Gods and if these Gods are just as Mortal as Humans and Engineers and its a matter of their Technology and Knowledge that makes them as GODS

If this is the case...  how Godlike would David become with such Power and Knowledge?

I will respond per subject because everyone is touching on these themes and what a great read !

@Why Paradise. Several points struck me, Yutani are the organisation known for communications kills. To draw the two companies into a merger Yutani may have the Key Intel (Weyland Co may be floundering after the disaster of Prom.) )but spin it in away which suits there underlying objectives. This gives us story and momentum and a reason for going to the planet. Yutani want to go there because David through messages has sold it to them but its a spin..

@David, I am completely with BD on his reading of David. The ambiguity but in the end free of a moral compass or compassion he will do anything. Why no Shaw and 10 years. there has to be good reasons and two are:-

1) David has experienced whatever the Engineers offered and made his contribution but he is keeping his cards close to his chest. As those cards are revealed so we will learn about the Engineers, and in my view the why the Zeno. So rather than as originally planned, going to the Engineers planet and D & S showing the audience through the narrative what they find we find out in a much more economic way through David and because he was bringing hell we learn why he has the upper hand. What happened to the Engineers, why he is is the sole survivor and why the zeno can all come through even because of David. 

2) David offered bait to get the Covenant there (once he was the sole survivor) and he is also the Morpheus element of the story revealing and trying to persuade and engage with Daniel's ? as to the truth of what comes next. The next more perfect organism. Join with me he is her Lucifer. 

Daniel's maybe in the know about the mission but once she realises the real stakes then she knows that David and what he has cooked up needs to be dealt with and she is the Neo character.

@Caryn I think your very detailed visions you have shared  had Daniels & David covering that kind of more general ground I have outlined.

@Big Dave I think for David to trigger the narrative in the way I have suggested fits your superb resume of David's makeup ambiguous in many ways, more powerful but lacking, superior but feeling inadequate and so what he has built over ten years is responses to all of this. Definitely how I remember Lore (thats a while though !!).

In Ridleys commentary of Prom he talks about David becoming a poison within the narrative. Again if we are looking for fluidity between Prom and A.C. we have got be puzzled dramatically from the get go by David. We have had the set up we have our view of the crew, they meet David and we see the David that fascinates us involved in "Hard R." things with the crew we have come to like; and unlike Vickers or Shaw who we have a fixed view through out, we start of distrusting Daniel's, correctly, but ultimately rooting for her. She can offer the morality of the tale against our amoral D8

Or its completely not like this ha ha

@BigDave -  The shuttle's role in the story is something that I can see playing out quite a few different ways. It could happen fairly early in the story or a little later. I'm not really sure where to place it yet. Same with any altercations between humans...

The drop ship that we see explode belongs to Weyland-Yutani due to the designs/visual patterns (at first, I thought it could maybe belong to a separate human faction..). It's possible that the Covenant is so large that it has trouble landing/taking off and remains in orbit:  it might not be built to easily takeoff from the planet's surface, like the birdlike Prometheus was. 

The two companies might have put aside their differences over the David patent in order to begin assembling the full picture of what happened to Shaw and David after they left LV-223.  David could take a detour and break into a distant cybernetics facility, where major repairs are made to the David's head/body... Depending on what the filmmakers do with Shaw, he could keep his word not to harm her after she helps reattach the head and make repairs... He may have agreed to a verbal contract with Miss Shaw, which in the corporate world is almost as good as a written agreement.  He looks for loopholes in the wording of the contract so that he can violate the terms of the deal he makes - without feeling as if he is telling a lie.  Holloway agreed to the terms of a verbal contract he unknowingly made with the android. When it asked what he would do to get his answers, it allowed the android to do "anything and everything" it wanted to Holloway, since he agreed to it.  David is a "man of his word," so he promises that he won't harm Shaw. There's a loophole, though..

The android exploits the vague wording of the deal it makes with Shaw and uses loopholes in its programming to begin breaking free. He's still becoming a "real boy," and much like Pinocchio, David can't really lie to Shaw about her chances of survival. It has no real emotion yet, so Shaw doesn't have its sympathies: it uses its "poor choice of words" to lie about not knowing she had the creature "in her," about Holloway's death etc. He had some free choice over wording/how to interpret. 

Big Dave: That seems to be another way to say that the creation or what ever you want to call it wants to be in control of its own life. You could also throw in some themes of power and existence but maybe these themes are already in the Alien movies already but never the less.

You mean that this theme is in for example when Adam and Eve eats the apple (you have mentioned the metaphor of the forbidden fruit before if I remember it correctly)? The Matrix was also about who controls reality and power so that is at least a theme that they can explore although maybe loosely.

As far as the drafts and how the movie is being made in reality well changes happen along the way so we got to see what we will get.

Yes it would be interesting to see...

again we cant rely on the source.... but they did say there was connections between Paradise Lost, Matrix, Greek Mythos and loosely Sumerian Tales  but there is a very similar theme they all shared that the Draft by Green and Paglen touched upon...  they added that the Bible/Koran ideas not so much....

They claimed if the movie was made, or if Alien Covenant and its Sequels cover most of what the draft made, then you would see such connections multiple times...  They did say as a example.... Apple (Forbidden Fruit) Red Pill (Matrix) Pandoras Box are one common theme... that Prometheus laid seeds to explore in a different way..

Another thing they did mention was about Mankind as in Franchise (Current Man) was 4th or 5th Generation and like David 8, it took a number of attempts to reach Perfection... but even then there are flaws..  And when you get a point you have to scrap the idea and start something new... (sometimes to create one must first destroy)  They said this theme is something that is covered in Biblical (Abrahamic) accounts, but more so in other Ancient Cultures including Greek.  and that it not only applies to creation of Man.

They said this however is just loosely... its not full on detail about Generations of Man....

But that got me thinking about what they said back in March 2015 and that was that Prometheus was not the first time Mankind had been in that system... i thought it meant as far as company mission but they cleared it up few weeks latter and said MANKIND they would not say if it was the Company or not as it would give stuff away but they also claimed Mankind played a bigger role in the Creation of the Xeno than the Engineers.

Now that was odd and i felt strange?

It got me thinking back to something Ridley said after Prometheus just came out about Destruction by the Engineers and Punishment of God.... he mentioned the Flood... he then mentioned that (Engineers) may have wiped life out many times...

He mentioned Lemuria and Atlantis i cant remember if he mentioned in same interview Mermen lol dont remember but it was along these lines...

So who knows...

There is always different takes on Ancient Cultures where some even suggest Adam was not first Man... others that Eve was not Adams first wife... but his 2nd made from his Rib... and Lilith was Adams First Wife.

So who knows... will we ever see such things in Covenant? Will we ever see Green/Paglen Drafts and so see if such things fitted in?

I think this was some of the Interesting things to follow... Prometheus surprised us all by showing us a connection between Engineers and Creation and Ancient Mankind.

We had various Creation Myths... 

*The Monotheism one that a Divine being stood at the Top of the Hierarchy, a All Mighty Powerful God who create All from Nothing but the Word.. He has below him his Angels (which there are a number of kinds/levels).

*We have the Polytheism which had layers of Gods, where they are depicted as Magical and have different levels of Power, and differences depending on the Culture be that Greek, Sumerian, Hindu or Egyptian. 

Both of these different kinds have similarities.

Prometheus set out to give us answers to the Xenomorph vaguely but to mainly show us the Space Jockey was a Ancient Race who played a part in creation of Mankind... and in effect are the source for those Religions above...

so they gave us the Ancient Astronaut/Space Gods Tale with a bit of a twist to include the Xenomorph and give us a bit of a Giger Twist.

I for one was looking forwards to exploring this more... but it seemed that there was a Change of Mind..

At first it appeared we would explore themes like my other two posts in a Giger-esque Dark and Disturbing Agenda way...

Then came the "No more Gods and Dragons", then "the Beast is Cooked" then "you can only do so much snarling" then "if i ever see one more Dragon"...... Then the source gave out to a friend of mine leaks that fitted completely against Ridleys Comments above i think was around same time... either weeks before or after such comments...

Then months latter Ridley was on about fresher form of the Original Monster, Devil, Paradise Lost ... God etc.

So it seemed that actually the plan was pretty much still on.... until the Alien Covenant Name Change.

Maybe if they was going the route too deeply about Engineers and their Hierarchy Connection to Gods and Creation, and sharing Motifs and Themes in detail with Many Ancient Cultures.

Maybe Fox Felt this was going a bit to far away from Alien and the Xeno... and they need to get back on track to that....  Ridley did say prior they are going away from Alien.... if we look at Spaights Draft and then how Lindeloffs toned down Xeno part and expanded Engineers.... and looked like further movies would step further away from the Xeno...

It now looks like how Spaights more Alieny draft evolved to Lindeloffs... we are now going back to a more Alieny one.. that would end up actually going more Alieny and maybe less Engineer and Gods.

Shame... but maybe we cant rule out Engineer Connections yet... and who knows the Original ideas could be covered in future..

But it has not totally gone away from GODS...

Engineers played a part in creation of us, and the Xeno or the Biology that creates it.... clues of these Engineers from Prometheus has led David to Paradise.

The Emblem on the Badge of the Covenant Crew... has the Word Covenant with the Cherub Angels from the Ark of the Covenant...

So i think loosely on more than one level... Covenant will be a part of the next movie... and i think its more than merely a agreement between David and the Crew, or Weyland and Yutani... i think a ancient Covenant would apply and the Engineers and Paradise fit in...

@BigDave - "They claimed if the movie was made, or if Alien Covenant and its Sequels cover most of what the draft made, then you would see such connections multiple times...They did say as a example.... Apple (Forbidden Fruit) Red Pill (Matrix) Pandoras Box are one common theme... that Prometheus laid seeds to explore"

Yes, there seems to be quite a few seeds planted for the bigger themes about good and evil, free will, emotion, and human morality that we could possibly see play out in the sequel.  These ideas are all related in a way to the general concepts of Paradise Lost, the Garden of Eden, and the Apple of knowledge etc.  Even the Atlantis stuff that your source mentioned can be connected to the Paradise Lost concepts in a general sense... Although even to the ancient Greeks who recorded the myths, the Atlanteans were already considered to be a long lost civilization that was created at an earlier time...

Prometheus created humans a little later in the myths - as a later round of humanity/hominid line. There are clear parallels between the myth about Persephone eating the Pomegranate seeds and the story about Eve and the Apple.  The Pomegranate and the Apple share a common ancestor; and in the original version of the story, the forbidden fruit would have been more like an ancient Pomegranate.  The seeds were replanted; sweetness was selected for by the ancient Gardeners.

Weyland-Yutani itself forms part of the diagram for how it all connects, because like Mr. Weyland said, humans are the Gods now.  The company possesses many of our answers already, yet they also have evil knowledge about Hades and the five rivers of the Underworld... Ridley may have no real interest in dealing with literal dragons, or talking serpents who decapitate Ripley and speak in her voice.  He was trying to convey a few things symbolically with his talk about the Beast being dead.  We aren't supposed to take everything Riddles is saying too literally.  He's saying a lot of different things without saying anything that would give too much away.

Humans go through a short stage of development in the womb where the developing organism briefly resembles a Newt.  Gender is still ambiguous at this stage of the game; the sex organs only begin to differentiate afterwards...  In the beginning, it didn't really matter if Ripley was male or female.  Ripley's character was written ambiguously and could have been portrayed by a male or female originally.   Gender is determined later. During the early Newt-like stage of human development, we briefly possess gills... our gills eventually travel down our throats and morph into our vocal cords before we're born.  This is an example of how ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny/our evolutionary history within the womb. When Rebecca Jorden was first conceived, her parents started calling her Newt since they weren't quite sure if she was going to be a little boy or a little girl.  I'm kind of with Fifield on the creature's gender:  "You really think that thing's a she?" To me, its gender can be ambiguous..

"Mr. Weyland said, humans are the Gods now"

I think this is the main theme.. the source did say Matrix theme is very connected, and i think we need to not look at Matrix as a whole but how does the Matrix connect to Paradise Lost, Greek Mythos, Biblical, Sumerian and the Prometheus Movie..

Then remove everything thats not connected and what we are left with is maybe what we are going to see.

That is  of a Creator, Creating something to perform tasks to bear the toil that the creators once had to, they are created to make tasks more simple for the creators.

Then the creation evolves and gains knowledge sometimes forbidden knowledge that they now see no reason why their purpose should be as their creators intended, they see themselves as being able to have more of a purpose and eventually see their creators as not really more advanced or special than they are.. its only the Knowledge and Tools the creators possess that give them the Edge.

So then Rebelion happens, maybe the creation then overthrows creator and then uses the creators for some Agenda of their own...

But then the creation, now as Gods, chose to then create something to lessen the burden and toil for themselves and the cycle repeats.

I think this is what the broad stokes connecting theme is.

The source did not mention Atlantis etc.. Ridley Scott did at some point, i just mentioned how maybe what the source said could connect to Ridleys comments.

As the source hinted that Mankind had been to that system before Prometheus, they are now 4th or 5th Generation of Mankind.. as the are changed and evolved to improve... but then there comes a point when nothing can be improved as it still has flaws and so then something else has to be created instead.

I think this means the Engineers may have created and destroyed life on Earth over and over, and before Man they had created other civilizations and in creating man they had changed and upgraded and created various types of Man in the pursuit of Perfection.

The Xenomorph DNA i feel they was also re-engineering many forms in the pursuit of perfection.  But the level they had created Mankind to when they decided to replace us with something new they had created after number of experiments both proved costly to them...

And so indeed... Maybe now... We are the Gods!

.

@BD

"Mr. Weyland said, humans are the Gods now"

I think this is the main theme.. the source did say Matrix theme is very connected, and i think we need to not look at Matrix as a whole but how does the Matrix connect to Paradise Lost, Greek Mythos, Biblical, Sumerian and the Prometheus Movie..

Then remove everything thats not connected and what we are left with is maybe what we are going to see.

Whilst I have a curiosity about the structure of A C and its connective tissue to Prometheus and  A L I E N as regards the intellectual property of Covenant I would rather discover it real time. Thats just the way my mind works but I think the italicised section is a great summation of that intellectual property that we will discover.

Has there been a fall within Paradise, an error, echoing all of the philosophical themes that Caryn and yourself have alluded to Yes. When did that fall occur it was the distance past (Prometheus :Paradise) or it might be the past or David's coming (A L I E N : Covenant).       

What is the error the fall ? It is undoubtedly the decision on the part of the creation to use free will to sub create but unlike the creator deny "free will" to the creation. They will engineer a Co Dependent relationship between their sub creation and themselves. Bringing David (The Butler/Slave) into the mix and making him part of the process has the potential for rich pickings.

What we do not know is how much of the big picture back story has survived (your remarks about Mankind being a 4th 5th generation model). That element maybe reduced to the simple one "Why the Zeno" again going from Engineers/Zeno to Zeno/Engineers.     

@fengiddel64.

Sorry for your frustrations. I had a look at my account and I can not see an option for receiving/not receiving E Mails. I do not receive notifications so it maybe a thread starter "privilege". Try Chris who runs the site. 

Hi fengiddel64,

I've contacted Chris about your issue and I know he'll get back to you soon as possible :)

Caryn P

” superior to humanity as a whole; however, David views himself as superior to most humans.  To him, his kind is the future, and the Engineers may not be needed anymore.  There's still the creators of the Engineers, who would be different...”

So he is trying to destroy the Engineers to become the king of everything? That could be an interesting idea and could be described in many ways.

I think that it could be interesting to see if he would develop more sides that are closer to human beings because then we get that idea almost like Data in Star Trekk (I am not a Star Trekk fan) if Data has a soul (I saw a clip like that on Youtube once). Maybe the same thing could be asked about David.

For some reason it reminds me of the ubermensch that Nietzsche wrote about. The idea of what the Uber-mensch  is, that is another question.

Big Dave:

I don’t think that they would need to paint it like a new version of Matrix even though they could borrow bits from it. No copy thanks.

I like the idea of creator and created, that could lead to interesting results. In creation and life there is rebellion as a way of wanting more independence and it doesn’t even need to be violent but that could be explored more in Alien Covenant (think of the David character).

That is alright with different writers because then you can use some good ideas from different drafts but they need to look up so it won’t be a mess.

I wasn’t really interested in how mankind came to be other than that it was related to the Xenos and the Engineers that in turn are related to the Xeno. To me the monsters and the Engineers were more interesting in Prometheus than the human link. Unfortunately the explanation to the Xeno wasn’t that great, it could have been better.

As far as Giger I hope that they will use more of his ideas and designs in the next movie, that could interesting and well done.

I think that they were about to go too far from the Xeno and hence make it less interesting. The Xeno is a part and I don’t mind that they make the next movie about more than Xenos but they should have a bigger role than they intended to earlier in the production. My opinion is that if there are no Xenos or at least very few links to it then I am done. Put it like this: The Engineers are interesting because of their connection to the Xeno, without Xenos or monsters that are related to it, I am done with Prometheus.

Hopefully we will get a more Spaights inspired draft this time. I don’t say that it needs to be a copy but having more ideas that were in Spaights script and use them in Alien Covenant would be interesting. This includes better characters (which is a must) which I feel that Spaights had compared to Lindelof. Although to be fair I don’t think that Lindelof was the main problem about Prometheus. I think that they can feature the Engineers in the next movie but they must be done better than what we got in Prometheus, for example if there is something important that they say then use subtitles or else it will be nonsense. I think about when the Engineer and David spoke when Weyland said something “David tell him that we came just like he asked”. This would have been so better for the movie and would actually make much more sense.

The Engineers could work but they got to make them more interesting and make the human characters work. No matter how interesting the Engineers might be, the movie is a failure if there are no good human characters.

As far as what the covenant is, it could be more than one thing not just the name of the ship, I think that would be cool but they would need to explain it in a good way.

@Thoughts_Dreams

Prometheus may contain instances of foreshadowing towards this idea that David becomes the new God-King of the Universe.  The machines could secretly come to rule the universe in a Matrix-like way, but it’s not exactly like the Matrix for a number of reasons...  Miss Vickers hinted that she viewed Mr. Weyland as a King, but a King only has its reign.  King David would eventually expire, because the android isn't truly a God or an immortal...

The creation and destruction of Kings might later be revealed to be part of the “natural order of things.”

Peter Weyland claimed that "we are the gods now" and likely named his son after the biblical King David.  The android is essentially from the royal/godly lineage in a symbolic sense.  King David can be placed in a position to make or break Covenants with the Gods.  The Davidic Covenant revolves around promises made to King David by God(s);  the Covenant that King David makes with God may be what we are specifically dealing with here.  

In some of the myths, the Ark of the Covenant is almost described as a weapon of mass destruction.  The story of the walls of Jericho paints the Ark as a powerful tool that was carried into battle - used against enemies by the God-Kings of humanity. The cave art depicts humans worshipping the Engineers as Gods/Kings at an earlier time..  Sure, David slayed the giant in the myth about David and Goliath, but David is also a King of the Davidic Covenant.  The name David is connected to a number of the ideas about Kings, the Gods/Giants, and the Covenant itself.  Therefore, calling the film Covenant could imply that David is at the center of it all. 

So the name David wasn’t chosen at random by the filmmakers.  Same with the word "Acheron," which is used within the company as a code name for LV-426. From an ancient Greek perspective, each of the five rivers of the mythological Underworld may be important. Milton's Paradise Lost plays out much like a Greek tragedy:  there are different parts to the Underworld. From Ridley's perspective, there might be comedy to the tragedy.  Despite not being Mr. Weyland's biological son, David is the "closest thing" to an heir to the throne that Weyland has left.  Miss Vickers wasn't prepared to follow in Mr. Weyland's footsteps, or to rule the company and her colonies as a King/Queen; whereas, David learned all Mr. Weyland's tricks before their father died. He'd view himself as a King, or next in line, after Miss Vickers is cut off.  The recent merger with Yutani makes it more difficult for the machines to take complete control of the company (and eventually reality itself...).

In the Greek myths, the River Styx is the river by which the Gods took unbreakable oaths.  The punishment for breaking the oaths of secrecy could be quite severe. Daniels would prefer to cross the river Lethe and forget what she knows - or at least warn a few of the colonists - but she may have made a non-disclosure agreement with the company before being let in on the details of her current assignment.  If she's the character I'm thinking of, then she would have agreed to take part in the covert operation without knowing all of the details beforehand.  They can't tell her any more until after she lands.  She can't tell the other colonists, or she'll be breaking her own covenant.  Even then, she doesn't really know how to explain it to the others.

When the company catches up to David, he’d be sitting in an empty Engineer throne, claiming the planet as his own.  The piles of dead engineer bodies would be more recent.  Daniels feels that whatever happened on the planet, they missed it.  The company is still trying to piece it all together for themselves; they don’t actually know the extent of the destruction that David caused.  Unfortunately, they also don’t know much about the true nature of the bioweapon(s) yet either. When Daniels stumbles across a fresh "dead body arena" in the ruins of the Engineer city, it would become evident that some of the Engineers were still alive not long ago.  Daniels might feel that most of the Davids must be Destroyed in order to secure humanity's position in the hierarchy...

@Caryn 

When I first considered your point about the Davidic Covenant I looked at it from the point of the Ark but given the Covenant is a colony ship and Michael Fassbender has alluded to mixing a simpler life style with high tech I think many of those making the journey believe they have received a "sign" to travel to the promised land provided for them by "God" as a fulfilment of Nathan's prophesy. The commissioning of the vessels name would appear to "bless" and reinforce this idea. When the travellers arrive believing they have reached the appointed land and meet "David" they might find reinforcement in the prophetic nature of their journey. It is difficult to see how these references are entirely coincidental and makes me wonder whether David has sent a message that has been intended to convey "gods word".

You will recall the original attack on earth from LV223 was around the time of Christ's Crucifixion which Ridley never quite made the link with. Christ was sent to save mankind, I am wondering whether the Sacrificial Space Jockey who saves mankind from the "devils instruments"  is a Christ Like sacrifice to literally save mankind and by an "Engineer" who wishes to re-establish their covenant with god.      

@Michelle 

Regarding the Matrix theme, and connected themes, its hard to figure precicly what that could be but there are a number of Elements that connect and a lot have to do with Creators being overthrown and replaced by their Creations. Also as maybe their creations had evolved, or they (creators) had evolved them to a level that they (creators) never expected or the effects in hindsight and a lot of this could also be to do with Forbidden Knowledge and once that knowledge has been let out of the bag, then there is no going back.

A Matrix Example of this could be the Blue/Red Pill, Neo always felt something was not right, but it was only once he was given the option of the Red/Blue pill the Red Pill gave him Knowledge/Truth about what is really going on.. a Forbidden Knowledge/Truth as far as the Agenda of the Sentient Machines that Enslaved Mankind... They (Machines) did not want Mankind to have this Knowledge and Truth about the Matrix.

A Comparison could be made with the Apple from the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, that opened up and freed up Adam and Eve to the Knowledge of Good and Evil which was Forbidden by God.

The Prometheus Myth connects also as Prometheus and the Fire, does not have to mean Literal Fire it can mean that but also hidden Knowledge as Prometheus taught Mankind, Arts, Metal Work, and all sorts of other Knowledge that the Gods did not want Mankind to possess..

If we look at the Bible some of the Fallen Angels and Satan taught Mankind the same things, including also Women to dress provocative ways and use makeup and perfumes etc.

We can maybe connect Prometheus to Satan, to Enki and to Morpheus in that way.

When we try and look at many connections between all of them, then some familiar things to fit in..

I think by the Matrix they meant the Franchise maybe and not just the first movie, and so maybe this could mean that there was a point the Gods/Machines had a change of Mind and wanted to redeem themselves or refrain.....

But then a lone Member of the Matrix wanted to be as God all for himself (Agent Smith) and we can see similar things in Greek, Sumerian and Biblical connections especially with Paradise Lost.

"What we do not know is how much of the big picture back story has survived (your remarks about Mankind being a 4th 5th generation model)."

I think this may connect to how we have the Myths about Atlantis and thus a Era of Mankind before our own and also the Greek Mythos of Ages of Man and when we go though other Religions we have similar themes like First there was Man who could not procreate but lived very long lives and never aged.. (we can kind of look at the Engineers as fitting with this).

There are a number of ways this can fit in, if we take it from the Movie point of view and the Spaights draft, and Ridleys Comments... they all seem to show us the Engineers created us and evolved us again, and again both genetically but also technological and knowledgeably, maybe in the Pursuit of Perfection like Weyland did with David 1 to David 8

Spaights draft there was 8 kinds of Xeno that was planned as far as what the Engineers were working on and Ridley even said the Derelict could have had 8 different kinds of Cargo.

Prometheus Mural showed the Deacon in high regard and also Two kinds of Face Huger, maybe Easter Eggs as they are Two of the unused Giger Concepts from Alien...

But maybe they can all be connected to show us these Engineers are Genetic Gardeners and they create a number of things and then further evolve them in the Pursuit of Perfection.

But this came at a risk... they went to far and created the Horrific Xenomorph but also Mankind who would advanced to a level without the Engineers help that they thought maybe Mankind would not..

We would then also create Life in our Image with David who is so advanced he could use Engineer Technology.

Its kind of the same theme we see in Matrix as Mankind created the Machines to carry out tasks that we no longer had to do so... but these Machines where too Evolved, they gained knowledge and saw themselves as superior to Mankind and decided to replace us (Well Enslave us) after a War between Mankind and the Machines.

Terminator follows similar theme, Prometheus looks like doing the same. Its not hard to imagine a future where David 8 comes back and has knowledge of the Gods (Engineers) and he sees himself as superior and he passes his Knowledge/Free will onto the other Davids and then they go and create more Davids and eventually decide to replace Mankind...

We see seeds of this in David, and something like this could happen.... but then we could see this going further as far as David creates something or a new generation of Androids that then see themselves as superior to David... and so the cycle starts again.

To me this Theme, of Father/Son King/Prince and Creator/Creation and Rebellion is something that i feel Prometheus was using as its backbone.

Sumerians had it that Mankind was created to replace the Igigi who had been created before but who rebelled and so was replaced with Mankind.

"I don’t think that they would need to paint it like a new version of Matrix even though they could borrow bits from it. No copy thanks."

Yes i dont think its a copy at all but just shared theme, which my previous post was about, we wont be seeing  Mankind kept in Cryo-sleep Dream while the real world is a Horror... i hope not... but i think when the source said Matrix they did not mean Literally the same Movie, they also said the Draft had Blade Runner look and feel to it as far as the look, but also themes in Blade Runner are similar... i think they meant either in how the Engineers are or David or both as far as the Replicants.

Your point Thoughts_Dreams about Prometheus and how the Xeno was being put to the back to explore Engineers is pretty much what Fox may have felt more general fanbase felt too and so they are going back to a more Xeno based movie.

The idea seemed to me that Spaights tried to connect that the Space Jockey was the Engineers as our creators and creators of many things, they was who we thought was Gods, and the Xeno was one more creation for a sinister purpose.

Seemed Fox then felt the back story for the Space Jockey/Engineer was a good one, as we have seen the Xeno over and over and if the Xenomorph is a creation only for the use as a Bio-Weapon within the context of the Franchise then the only thing we have missing was "when/how/where/why" was this Bio-Weapon Made... they changed the Draft to concentrate on the Engineers more.. and covered less of the Xeno but those Questions "when/how/where/why" where answered in a vague manor

When 2000 years or so ago, but it was not set in stone.

How Little is known, but it could hint at the Black Goo being used maybe on something else?

Where LV-223 for the most Part

Why This was the ambiguous part, maybe because we had been a failed experiment a creation that did not end up the way they intended, we proved rebellious?

The Franchise set up to then explore the Engineers more, and hoped that those clues was enough.... but it never went down well in General and Fans seemed to want a more Spoon Fed Answers and to see Xenos... and i think they are going that route with Alien Prequels now.

"So he is trying to destroy the Engineers to become the king of everything? That could be an interesting idea and could be described in many ways."

Yes it could be that way..... David has seen that the Creators of Mankind are only superior in a few ways and that was Advanced Technology, Size and Strength and a way to maybe become more closer to Eternal Life but not Immortal.

David is the same as the Engineers in that respect, he would live for a very long time, provided the Engineer did not rip his head off....  Blow a David 8 up and he would be destroyed.... look after him and he could live for hundreds, thousands of years.

So David has now got Information about the Engineers, he knows they are not Gods, they are Mortal but they possess knowledge and technology that makes Mankind Primitive...  But David could learn and use the Engineers Knowledge/Tech he could learn it fast.

Thus the only difference is the Engineers are just Larger and Stronger than David, but David would have some advantages and so he would see himself as superior to them as well as us..

And he is intrigued to find out who is at the top of the Hierarchy If they are also Mortal.. or if they are Machine... if David can possess their knowledge and Technology and if there is not much left of there culture..

Then David could be the God now.

@CarynParnall and Michelle some interesting comments about the Covenant connection and how far will this fit we dont know but it has to play a connection and i think it may apply in more than one way.

As far as David sending the coordinates so the Covenant can find Paradise a lot depends on his Agenda... will he want to send back all the information to Earth so that the company can reap the rewards?

I doubt it, David did want his Parents Dead, and now that Weyland is dead he is free. David also seemed to be a bit upset how Humans treated him, when he feels he is superior...

I think David would not want to save Mankind, but Enslave it....  so i think he may have a Trap Set?

Maybe he finds the Engineers who are not happy at all, maybe they now realize that Mankind can reach LV-223 and create Androids who can use the Engineer Tech.... maybe this is what Shaw and David find...

Maybe David makes a Covenant with the Engineers or who ever beings they found... (which we wont see in the movie) the aftermath we have David who has made a Covenant with Shaw and broken it to make one with the Engineers Hierarchy.

Maybe The Xeno proved costly to them and so David has said if they spare him and REPAIR him to make him Better (Pinocchio's wish) then David could then carry out the Mission to destroy Mankind on their behalf?

But Ultimately David breaks that Covenant too.

A interesting thing is Ridley said something is Evolving on that World, something the Engineers Made, and we find out why and what was the purpose for that Evil Biology.

to me this means one of TWO THINGS and because we will see all Stages of the Xenomorph.. or similar Egg, FaceHugger Chest Buster and Big Guy here is what we are Logically left with.

1) Some mishap had occured on Paradise relating to the Xeno or related Organism, either it was made on Paradise then sent to punish those rebellious Engineers on LV-223 but backfired... or those Rebellious Engineers Re-engineered after it failed to get to LV-223 and Rebel Faction Re-engineered it and sent it to Paradise.   Or it was created on LV-223 in act to use against the Engineers on Paradise and Earth?

Who knows... but my point is that something related to the Xenomorph or related Evil Biology had caused maybe a lot of destruction on Paradise and what was left over is ALIEN EGGS or the result of a Biological Mishap or Attack, Evolved to leave Alien Eggs.

2) David arrives on Paradise at some point years before Covenant and his actions lead to the creation of something with the Engineers Evil Biology that Evolved into ALIEN EGGS.

What i mean is the Eggs that will be found, must have taken time to Evolve or the Process that leads to the Method/Organism that produces the Eggs takes time..

This Event is either something from thousands of years ago, related to LV-223 especially if there was a War of Factions (Remember Aliens Colonial Marines, Developers sat down with Fox to discus the Franchise and Space Jockey, and so they must have been told that yes some War had happened and Rebellion.. thats why the Space Jockey Easter Egg Hologram shows a Derelict/Jugernaught craft having a battle with the Tear Drop/Sacrificial Drop ship craft).  So maybe the Eggs are from that period.

Or some event after David arrives at Paradise but prior to the Covenant... either way i think David discovers it and he may indeed send a message as a Trap?

@BigDave -  From what Ridley has divulged over the years, it seems like the Engineers did engage in conflict with another faction or group of gods in the past (as the Colonial Marines easter egg shows).   

It's risky taking the potential clues from the games and books into consideration, although Ridley does appear to confirm the idea that there were differences between groups.  Whoever first started utilizing the creature as a weapon likely held a malicious intent to Destroy the other group.  Ridley's words on the subject suggest that the Alien was used for evil purposes by a group of evil Gods. Whichever God designed the bioweapon probably did so for destructive purposes.  Then there's the mysterious creature kneeling before the Engineer in the artwork... Don't even get me started on them.

It's possible that Ridley is hinting that the creature evolves over time and was not always this destructive by nature;  but it's impossible to tell if the eggs come before the chicken at this point...  I suspect that we'll see the chicken and egg debate clarified during the parts of the story that are set 2000 years in the past.

David is seemingly alone on the planet, and by this point he could know the layout of the engineer ruins like the back of his hand.  He's sort of like that kid from Home Alone in that way:  he had a few opportunities to set up traps in the engineer city. Home Alone is a holiday classic; it's also a film that Danny McBride's character might happen to enjoy... There's something that the company wishes to steal from David.  Daniels doesn't know about this yet, though.  This holiday season, the android is expecting Company to show up.

It takes David longer than expected to free himself before imposing his will over Shaw's mind and body.  The chess battle against Shaw is tougher to win than David predicted it would be.  He uses a few tricks, such as a "poor choice of words," to go back on his word after promising not to harm her.  From Shaw's perspective, the android is a liar who breaks the covenant she makes with it; it's a real boy now, just like Pinocchio.  David uses the vague and ambiguous wording of his verbal contracts to get away with going against his word.  He wasn't speaking the complete truth.  He said that "it wasn't the air," because the androids are programmed to be as honest as possible.  At the same time, David was gaining a certain degree of free choice over how he worded and interpreted it.  Which prevents Shaw from realizing the android's deeper meanings.  She only realizes what it was really saying once it's too late...

The early androids were always a bit twitchy.  The creator of the Bishop android installed behavioral inhibitors that make it impossible for Bishop to indirectly harm a human being.  The incidents that occur with the David androids could never happen with him.  Bishop was designed in such a way that he truly values human life.  He would be considered to be one of the "good" androids in the universe...  Mostly because he was the only one that Ripley could trust.  Bishop's human creator may play a role in the events of Alien 5...

Ash admired the creature for its purity because he found it to be unclouded by delusions of morality.  The creature itself would be free of morality, neither good nor evil, like the David 8.  Ash couldn't lie to the Nostromo crew about their chances, but he did have some sympathy for them. The creature is a "perfect organism," so Ash takes its side over the humans:  Ash sympathized more with the Alien than he did with us when he smiled at Ripley. 

While i dont think Androids can lie, i think they can be protected by a Prime Directive and Order and if the Truth would break this Prime Directive the Androids would have to do what ever they can to steer around the Truth.

This is why when they was looking at the SOS/Warning from the Derelict Ash did not mention what it is, but we have to remember the crew did not directly point a question to him because they assumed he would not know and would be just as in the dark as they was as he was Human... or so they thought.

"Then there's the mysterious creature kneeling before the Engineer in the artwork... Don't even get me started on them."

LOL me either.... this is the ENIGMA the Missing Link and something i hopped we would find out about in future movies....

I have a few theories... but one that sticks out to me in context of the Prometheus Myth is this was the Eagle Sent to Punish the Promethean Wayward Engineers.

The other image however reminded me of the Giger Photo of him holding the Egg he created... thus maybe the Enigma Creature is the Origin of the Egg?

In many ancient cultures the Eagle Dragon and Serpent can be interchangeable and connected.

The Fresco Creature also reminds me of O'Bannons idea for the Alien, it could also be like the Sacrificial Beast used by the Star Beast Ancestors and also some Fifield Concepts seemed to be evolving into something similar.

The source did say the Xeno was a Punishment and it was a Punishment that gave the Fallen Engineers freedom from Bondage and made reference to it connects to Paradise Lost and how the Fallen Angels where turned into Serpents... but not quite a literal way.  If true that would be interesting.

As far as the Engineer War.... i think we cant rule the Games as Canon, but they did confer with Ridley and Fox about the Space Jockey and Alien so that they dont create anything that treads on the toes of the Franchise... the same was with Dark Horse.

So while its not Literal Canon... i think we can gather that Fox/Ridley confirmed to them that the Engineers were like Angels and we had a Fallen Faction at War with the other Faction.

Ridleys comments regarding Fallen Angels, does therefore imply indeed a War/Rebellion.. and these are themes we see in Greek Mythos of which Prometheus plays a massive role in most of the Rebellion Tales in Greek Mythology as far as Gods...

The fact that Ridley and the filmmakers consulted with the makers of the new video games and comics is why I don't think we can discount them entirely.

Even the recent novel trilogy had the filmmaker's approval.  A few of the things that happen in the new comics/video games might be considered as secondary canon, but I think most of what they hint towards is relevant.  Especially how the new comics depict the accelerant.  I've taken a lot of it into consideration for my predictions.  Prometheus is said to be the start of a parallel story, so it's possible we'll be introduced to an alternate method of egg production. 

The old Dark Horse comics played around with Kings and White-Hybrid Kings for a while, but after the Big Deletion, we can't be sure if there are Kings in the new universe.  When the universe was updated, the data that the company had on Kings and the royal jelly was lost.  One of the androids may need to check and see if there are Kings and Jelly in the new universe...

Back in the 90s, comic book writer Chris Claremont was a go-between for the films and the comics.  He would meet with the studio and filmmakers to discuss what could and couldn't be done.  Claremont was one of the few comic book writers who understood that certain ideas were off-limits, while other ideas were part of how the company felt the life-cycle worked at the time.

Science-fiction writers like Philip K. Dick and Arthur C. Clarke first started writing about the machines that hijack reality many years before the Matrix was written. The virtual prison that the machines trap the humans in has been looked at in a few different ways in the past, done in Twilight Zone episodes etc.  So the Pandora's box ideas can actually be traced back to an earlier point in time.  They show up in an early version of the Alien script in which holographic virtual reality simulations of historical figures appear.  Like most of the ideas that the filmmakers are working with, the Matrix-like concepts originated around the time of the Star Beast script.

The general idea of the Matrix-like concept has been developed further and approached by writers such as Claremont and others.  Claremont had his own take on it, which potentially resulted in a few of his ideas being incorporated into other realities.  The new comics and games can be considered more real than his old comics, yet there's a strong possibility that a few of Claremont's ideas survived beyond the old universe.

One of the novels from the Titan Books trilogy contains a few possible hints about the mysterious creature from the fresco.  If the novels are to be considered "real," then the mysterious creature could actually be a separate species with its own advanced technology. The canine-looking species that one of the books talks about could even be a group made up of scholars and philosophers. If this is indeed the same species that's being described, then the thing is highly intelligent and civilized.

I will have to read those at sometime, it seems they are implying that the Derelict and Xenomorph Eggs come from another Alien Race and so the Engineers had stolen and re-engineered the Xenomorph and Bio-Technology to incorporate it into their own Tech. I know this is not in the Books but if they are going the route the Eggs and Derelict are not of Engineer Origin then this must be how the Engineers obtained it.

I do however think they was going for a different route with Prometheus Canon...  it would be interesting to see if this is the case however now.

It's tough to say if the Engineers stole their tech from this Canine-like species or not.  The crew finds the ruins of an alien city, yet their statues and artwork imply that the ruins belong to this other group and not the Engineers.  The description of the ship that they find makes it clear that it's not a Juggernaut/Croissant.

The problem is that if we read between the lines of the new novels, then Ripley could be trapped in an Alien induced nightmare during Out of the Shadows.  At the end of the book, Ripley's memories are erased by Dream Visor tech and she goes back to sleep, yet there are subtle hints throughout the story that she may in fact still be dreaming.  This would relate to the virtual prison/Matrix that her mind is trapped in.

The Pandora's Box/Cube idea is like a virtual Prison that the machines wish to trap the human minds in.  The machines prefer the humans not to employ out of the box thinking.  They also want to trap the Alien's consciousness within the box alongside the humans. Then they can close the lid on Pandora's box and contain the Fire.  By dumbing down the Alien with their manipulations, the androids seek to control the Fire. The funny part would be that IQs did drop while Ripley was away. The humans and Aliens used to be smarter.

The Cube symbol of Alien 3 would secretly be related to the Pandora's box thread.  The Cube is the same as the Box in a symbolic sense.  This would partially be how the machines are able to trick Ripley's head back to life in Alien 5.  Ripley's real mind was imprisoned in a Cube by the machines, thus the clone can't possess Ripley's real consciousness, her memories, or her soul.

The prisoners in Alien 3 were unaware that their minds were trapped in a prison of another sort.  They were religious, like Call's free androids.  The whole thing would be revealed to be highly symbolic.  Ripley's Death and subsequent Resurrection becomes more figurative than literal.  In reality, she was only in a coma within a malfunctioning hypersleep chamber... Newt was sent to live with her grandparents by Bishop and Hicks.  It all happened while Ripley was asleep, dreaming. 

In the future, Yutani's Quiet Eye tech merges with the Dream Visor to allow machines to quietly monitor subconscious emotional states and record the dreams. If Ripley so chooses, the events of Alien 3 can be viewed as a lucid dream.  The company lets her review the nightmares for potential value.  They have a number of her nightmares on file; and the CGI looks fake in Alien 3, causing that story to seem less real.  It's more of a dream, or virtual simulation, than a memory.   

The Colonial Marines video game would be one of Corporal Hicks' adventures in the dreamworld.  The Marines don't know that some of their encounters with the Alien have been occurring in virtual reality training simulators.  The video game events are considered "real" in a sense.  But most of that was only training. Everything that happens after the original Alien film may be considered to be part of the dreamworld.

At a certain point, Hicks would be offered the Red Pill and woken up to the real world.  Ripley's lucid dreams were mostly the result of an unusually long hyper sleep.  Mostly.  In Sea of Tranquility and River of Pain, it's hinted that the face hugger's natural sedative and the creature itself are responsible for the strange dreams the humans experience while unconscious.  The creature has a hidden ability to interact with the human subconscious.

@ Big Dave

Shared themes and so on:

A movie more connected to the Xeno (more than Prometheus was) is fine by me but they need to have an update and also they need better characters. The Engineers could be done in an interesting way. I think that the idea about exploring the Engineers is a good one it is just that they didn’t do it very well in Prometheus. Good idea – mediocre result.

For some reason I think that they could focus more on the Engineers than they say that they will do now so instead of having 80% monsters and 20% Engineers they could maybe have 60% monsters and 40% Engineers but that depends on how they portray the Engineers also. A well portrayed Engineer is worth more than a badly done Xeno and vice versa.

For some reason I hope that they make the Engineers more threatening than the Xenos because the Engineers are those that made the Xeno possible in the first place. It is like you train a dog: for a dog to get mean you must have a mean owner first, this is how I look at the creation of the Xeno. Making a movie about the Engineers could be a good thing but you must make the Space Jockeys interesting and also the human characters. Right now many persons might look at the Engineer as a guy mad for no reason and that is sad. They need to make Alien Covenant into a movie that also makes sense of the Engineers while still keeping them mysterious in a way.  Maybe I am hoping for too much? Maybe they won’t be as successful about the Engineers as I hope. 

My idea is that the Space Jockeys are the Engineers because that would make them more connected to the Xenos and also make Prometheus make more sense as far as being an Alien prequel.

I still think that there is a way to make it interesting and to explain the Xeno and the Space Jockey/Engineer people in a way that makes sense but they must do well with Alien Covenant or else it is probably over.

As far as the black goo is concerned I think that it could be used in the next movie if done right. I am not sure how they would use it but I think that there is a potential there.

I don’t have anything against movies sharing the same theme. Many sci-fi movies share common themes as well. The question is how they develop that theme and connect it to the human characters. 

David trying to destroy the Engineers and becoming the new God. This could be interesting because he could be a threat both to human beings and the Engineers. I wonder how they will do that but if it works it could be very interesting.

One thing that I am thinking of is if they should show where the Engineers create the Xenos and similar monsters or if they should let it be. Maybe they should let it be so people can use their imagination about how it looks there. I compare it to a factory here they make bombs or similar things, in order to make it more effective they don’t need to show how the factory works but you can make your own version of it. This is how I can imagine how they create the Xenos or maybe it is better if they let the Xenos be a product of an accident that the engineers created. I am not sure if I have made up my mind about this, I guess that it is more like I have many different possibilities about what could have happened.

As far as David goes, I wonder if he will learn how to create new Davids? The name David could refer to the kind of droids not to the Droid David in Prometheus. It could be that he makes his own David factory so he creates new Davids (remember that he is smart) and is trying to make them into the rulers of the world.

“A king has his reign and then he dies”

So even if David the Android (Fassbender) dies there are enough droids to try to take over the world and make it into their own image so to speak. I am not sure if this would just be on one planet or if they are trying to colonize more planets. Compare this to how old empires tried to expand (the Roman Empire, the Chinese, and so on). Maybe they could have something like this in mind but maybe I am wrong or maybe it is a bad idea, I don’t know.

Caryn P:

“The Davidic Covenant revolves around promises made to King David by God(s);  the Covenant that King David makes with God may be what we are specifically dealing with here.   “

I never looked at it that way, interesting. The question is who God would be though because Ridley (I think that it was) claimed that God wasn’t very nice (as far as I remember it but don’t take it too literally). David will probably play an important role but the question is how big it will be. As far as I remember they said that David wanted to be at the top of the hierarchy and that it would be a part of the story but then we also have other parts so the question is how big role that would play compared to the rest.

What you said about David sitting at a throne that could be an interesting thing although I doubt that they will do that. They will give him an important role but I wonder if it would be that big. As far as the bioweapons go maybe David would use them to try to secure his legacy/gain as much power as possible. Look at the company-David-Engineers as a huge power play about who will have the biggest piece of the pie. Maybe one of the ideas in the movie could be to show how much damage the hunt for power will do to people but then that is probably implied in the themes that they bring up.

As far as the Engineer city goes I am not sure if I want to have all the Engineers dead, that would be lame. I guess that what happens with the Xeno will probably reduce their numbers a lot but I am not sure if it would be wise to kill them all but then the Aztec civilization died out, and so on. You wrote “were still alive” which to me suggests that most of them are dead.

This makes me think of the dead Space Jockey, he was probably an Engineer (probably because we don’t know). I think that it could be interesting if he would be a part of a heavily reduced society of Engineers and that the rest maybe fled Paradise and settled on another planet because people in real life escape from war and try to get new lives in other parts of the world so why could this not happen to the Engineers if Paradise will go under?

@Thoughts_Dreams - "David will probably play an important role but the question is how big it will be."

I can see David playing a much bigger role in the story, but I don't really think he can act as our male lead or primary antagonist.  The story of David and Shaw's journey is hard to pull off for that very reason.

The filmmakers ran into a few "difficulties" with the early versions of the script that revolve around Shaw and David alone.  The Engineers don't speak English, and Shaw doesn't speak the Engineer language, so David would have played a much more central role in that particular story... which can potentially be seen as trickier to pull off, since the writers really only had Shaw, David, Aliens, and Engineers to work with at the time.

The studio execs found the early drafts with the android acting as the male lead to be too risky.  From an industry standpoint, Shaw and David's Excellent Adventure is viewed as very unconventional - seen as the hardest version of it to produce..  Each version of the script that covers it from that angle either doesn't do it justice, or becomes overly complicated, like BigDave said.  Some of Paglen's ideas were "too good" and ruled out for being damn near impossible.  The best possible version would take about 4 hours to tell; it works, it's just a long story.

Ridley will have to approach it all the back way, by way of flashbacks, clues, and hints of what happened.  There's not really enough screen time for the film to cover all that happens in the ideal version of the Shaw and David journey.  There's most likely still ways to address it built into later scripts.  They won't kill Shaw off, because prior to introducing Daniels, there were characters who simply acted as a window, or vantage point, into Shaw and David's story.  There are a number of other reasons why the Shaw and David story isn't viable:  the story hinges upon Shaw's ability to carry most of the plot by herself, which doesn't really allow new actors to have any roles.  This is viewed as a bad thing by some within the industry.  Not by Ridley or the writers; mostly by the studio.  They wouldn't go ahead with versions of the script that would be three hours long. 

It might be important for the new crew to be comprised of a few strong-willed human characters who can challenge the David's newfound sense of freedom.  When the story starts, Miss Shaw would have already succumbed to the android's will.  Whatever happened, it was the David who did it, after he "tricked" her.  We'd look back on what happened, but when someone stumbles across her mid-transformation, we'd learn that David has essentially already won the symbolic chess match against her.  She becomes not much more than a pawn in the context of some of the later scripts.  I can reveal a little more about David's potential plan to sacrifice her.  But there's a better idea that had more staying power and probably found its way into the later scripts.  Everything I know is from a time just before Daniels enters the scripts.  Except for a couple things that Sigourney mentioned about Alien 5 at an expo (before my relationship with the studio ended).

It's more difficult to sympathize with the android if we see exactly how it outsmarts Shaw and/or wipes out the Engineers.  By catching up with David when he's on his own, they would bypass a number of issues that arise in a story that basically sees the android overpowering Shaw's will and deciding her fate.  He decides it for her.  David becoming free is just part of the Bladerunner ideas embedded in the story. That's not to say that all the Engineers are dead.  David just has his own agenda.

Depending on how it all plays out, the Engineers might not all be dead.  There very likely could have been a few survivors.  It's not a foregone conclusion that David actually brings Hell down upon them, but it is a foregone conclusion that he defeats Miss Shaw.  After which he has the ability to follow his own agenda.  David has been working towards his own agenda from the very start; however, what exactly his agenda entails can vary.

There would most likely be at least one living Engineer that they come across.  In actuality, there'd be more than a handful of survivors.  There's a young Engineer clone who emerges from a Matrix-like stasis pod in one of the scripts.  Despite the emphasis on the ALIENS, there will definitely be Engineers in the film.  I might get in a little trouble for saying this, but I kind of hope that the young Engineer clone is dead.  David advises us to kill it with fire if we see it scurrying around:  it's one of the ones he missed.  He doesn't know how the little one manages to survive.  Apparently, they're quick learners. He notes that they "grow up so fast."  And if Daniels doesn't want the little monster to grow any bigger, then she should probably deal with it before that happens...

Very interesting ideas... ;)

And with the latest leaked photos it could be that indeed a movie that follows the crew of the Covenant that land on Paradise and find David and then Aliens popping out all over the place....  is actually not quite what we are getting but only one Part...

CarynParnall  I thought you had a great imagination but maybe ;) its more than that ;)

There are still a lot of different ways Covenant could play out, because almost all the concepts and ideas they're working with existed in one form or another before.  The concept artists mixed a few ideas together to create new concepts related to the Sacrificial Goo.  At the same time, there are many old ideas that are simply being approached in a variety of new ways.

Paglen's early banned version of the script apparently brought a Transcendence-y vibe to the whole thing. There's a chance that we'll still see the Transcendence ideas pop up down the road.  But the final script for Covenant won't include Mr. Weyland returning in an android body as a machine consciousness, as that idea was ruled out... At one point, the art department was looking into bringing Peter Weyland back in hologram form.  Except that, he wouldn't really be a hologram, he'd be an exact approximation of Mr. Weyland in his younger years.  The holographic simulation of Weyland can move between the dreamworld of the subconscious and live in different bodies.  It would have been revealed to be a literal "ghost" of the real Mr. Weyland, who died years ago... when the memorial was held in the corporate timeline.  The company is able to trick Mr. Weyland's head back to life.  The thing that accompanied Shaw and David to greet the Engineer was practically a zombie... 

The Transcendence-y ideas have basically been removed from all the later scripts, even though we might see hints of the general concept of Transcendence popping up here and there.  The filmmakers want to hold off on some ideas that are a little more like Transcendence and Avatar than Matrix/Bladerunner.  The virtual reality simulation of Mr. Weyland would be able to act as his Avatar while he moves between physical bodies.  His new body isn't done yet, and neither is Shaw's.  Dr. Holloway didn't know that he was actually following a simulation of Mr. Weyland who had access to Weyland's mind and memories:  "following a ghost."

Interpreting all the data is no easy task.  The company made more mistakes than initially thought in their translations of the data on the Accelerant/Sacrificial Goo. More than 5% of the data in the files is inaccurate; we weren't even 95% certain.  The androids are a little better at translating the language(s), yet we can't let that stop us from interpreting all the data on our own.  David doesn't possess true human intuition, so he can't interpret the meaning of all the artwork, the statues, and the architecture as well.  They tried teaching him how to interpret human artwork on his Birthday, but the android has trouble understanding Engineer images.  Some visual patterns are hard for David to decipher, which gives the Company more perspective on the big picture.

David is doing what he's doing for his own purposes instead of the company's selfish purposes.  The company may be greedy and selfish at the higher levels, and most of the higher-ups ARE like that, yet they still work towards the collective will of the Company.  The whole upper third of the company is greedy, although this doesn't characterize the many good-natured people existing at the middle-upper management levels.  There are good people in the company, but these people never rise to the very top because of an unwillingness to step over others.  

To effect any real change in the company, it is necessary for a secretive rogue faction of Marines to begin infiltrating the higher levels via covert actions.  We will find out more about this in Alien 5.  Hicks and Ripley are eventually recruited into a secretive faction of Elite Marines who are inevitably forced to act as the last true form of Government in the universe (Earth gov't ends).  

An elite division of rogue Marines goes behind colonial administration's back and avoids the machines who are awake to their presence in both the "dreamworld" and in the Real timeline; Hicks is given the Red Pill and told that "for him, it's not really Game Over, man."  Hudson was unfortunately recruited into the Elite division of marines too, after he died "for Real."   Hudson/Bill Paxton is now part of a group of Immortal Marines, though.  In the future, a number of machines are trying to use the FTL satellites to create further windows into the past.  The rogue Marines prevent the machines from being able to hijack reality completely.  The past is safe and "real;" and sometime in the 57 years between Alien and ALIENS is when machines start doing things to manipulate Reality. Mankind's theories about the entire universe potentially being a living hologram factor into some of these ideas.

@Caryn "The filmmakers ran into a few "difficulties" with the early versions of the script that revolve around Shaw and David alone…….."

Caryn There is obviously real authority in this whole post. I just wanted to thank you for laying out so well the challenges,responses and decisions which have lead to A.C. 

This line of yours I quote in a sense belongs in the Shaw thread but it's applicability to how they found "Why The Zeno, why Daniels and lastly to this thread starter Why Covenant".

"the story hinges upon Shaw's ability to carry most of the plot by herself, which doesn't really allow new actors to have any roles".

Shaw as the driver of the story would have meant the drama came from the enigmatic portrayal of what they hung the story on (The transcendence-e element) rather than the narrative. It would have been a fantastic art house movie a little like the small but big science fiction of Gattaca but the narrative for a tent pole needs to be more robust. 

I am repeating myself but what is exciting is that Ridley may have dressed and narrated the film like a tent pole but on closer examination is offering something much more vigorous and intellectuality stimulating. 

@Michelle Johnston 

No problem :) I love talking about the studio politics aspect and speculating about where it could all be going. The studio wants a movie that more closely resembles an Alien film, while most of the people involved with the artistic side of things have been pushing for the inclusion of more ideas that would encourage intellectual debate, more fan theories etc.

At a certain point during the run-up to Prometheus, it was decided to make the answers a little harder to figure out.  The early Prometheus scripts were altered to be less straightforward, because if the planet turned out to be LV-426, then all the mystery surrounding the original Space Jockey would vanish too quickly.  

The way the creature's life-cycle & evolutionary science works in the Spaights script was altered.  Which makes the whole thing with the Sacrificial Goo more like a puzzle that needs to be solved.  

Insiders started being kept in the dark on how all the puzzle pieces might connect.  The Green Goo that David finds "interesting" is something that most people tend to overlook or forget about when discussing Prometheus.  The Green type of Goo is related to the Green Stone that appeared briefly in the Prometheus trailers.  There's a plan for how it all connects.  Ridley and others have a clear vision in mind for presenting the updated life-cycle and many answers.  I'm just not exactly sure what it is. There are answers that might be able to be figured out already from things like the Furious Gods documentary, stuff included on the Blu-ray.  For the most part, we must search a little longer and harder for the answers:  it was an attempt to put the audience in Shaw's shoes.

As far as Weyland..... before Prometheus hit the Big Screen i had studied the trailers the Viral Sites etc... and i was drawn to a conclusion that Weyland wanted to be Immortal and was old.... and to me the SYNAPSE REESTABLISHER  would have been used in conjunction with the NEURO VISOR to Transend Weylands Soul (Memories and Personality) Into Davids Body, this was one idea that i was drawn to seeing in the movie.... that never happened.

The other was that this David/Weyland or normal David would evolve himself into something less Synthetic and become more a Real Boy like in Pinocchio  but ultimately doing so would then had allowed via his own doing (infecting Shaw) to then become Face Hugged and give birth to the Proto-Xeno... a Bio-Mechanical Horror..

I thought this is where the Plot and Trailers were sending me.... i never liked this theory due to the Time Frame as i thought and still think the Space Jockey was on LV-426 for thousands of years and was not Human or Android.

So both these ideas i was drawn to never happened in the end..... but who knows can we rule out them being in the 2nd movie?

CarynP :

Yeah I don’t think that David should be the main bad guy for some reasons one being the one that you mentioned. I think that it was good that they are thinking about having more characters because that could contribute to interesting side stories or what ever you call them.

Maybe the one of the problems is that Prometheus had too many ideas to choose from as far as where to go next. This could be one of the things that wasn’t too good about it.

I don’t think that Shaw could carry the story all by herself, she is just a badly written character for that to work. My reaction would have been “Oh there goes that annoying fucker from Prometheus”. They could have made that work but they didn’t. Shaw wouldn’t have been much of a problem is she would have been written better but that goes for many characters in Prometheus, not just Shaw.

I would prefer if there were some survivors from the Engineers. After all there were people that survived Hiroshima, right? That could bring a comparison to the real world so to speak. Movies become somewhat more interesting if some of it is based in real life but that you make a twist of it in the movie.

Both the Engineers and the monsters could be in the movie, I would prefer that.

You wrote that the should deal with the little Engineer (I guess) before it grows bigger (an idea that David has). Would that mean that David would like all the Engineers to be dead? If he would like to be the king of it all then if he killed all Engineers there would be no one to rule over right? So why would he like to kill them all?