A Closer Look at the Bombing Sequence

Amazing debate by the way !!!!!

My opinion pre A:C was that it was all one goo.

post A:C i can not say for certain.

the engineer transformations in the pics are different to what we have seen. i had noticed the strange shapes coming out of their chests. at first i thought maybe because it was delivered in a different way. like rained down from urns but is that not like fifield getting splashed in the face?

i am going to guess that it is one goo. evidence is shakey on both sides so i am going with FOX and that is 1 goo. However it is entirely possible they u turn it.

My concern is sometimes a few of us agree on something and over time gets repeated until it is gospel. Take the prequel novel - i was lead to believe that it was a prequel to a:c with David and Shaw. it was not. but we all thought it was fact because we assumed. i am just careful that we dont do it with this as it is a key piece of the story. all hinging on a quote from a novel.

another worrying point is that perhaps for originality and effects the transformations have been kept fresh rather than have the same thing happen to each person. so it is always ingested in a different way, different dose  to warrant changes in the transformations. this is great on the eye for the casual fan but causes much confusion to us.  perhaps it is more down to effects than continuity which is sad for a franchise but effects sell some tickets i guess.

1 Goo is my guess

@ Sherris

"but is that not like Fifield getting splashed in the face?" - Not really, as I said in another post, Fifield was wearing a protective suit, and only got a smallish splash on the face through his melted helmet. The engineers got it epicly rained down on them, while wearing only cloth robes, with all of their bald heads showing. They got a much bigger dosage than Fifield. Anyway, we also know from David, that the goo has different reactions to different genomes and that it kills some creatures outright. It may be the case that it kills engineers outright, as it was never designed for engineers as the target. Either is possible. But yes, the one goo theory has the most evidence at the moment, by a long way.

The major piece of evidence that the goo is lethal to engineers, is that we see those worm-like creatures totally swimming in the black goo (the biggest dosage possible), in Prometheus, and they don't disolve or burn to a crisp. They just laid eggs which hatched into hammerpedes (their form of 2nd stage parasite). Thus I think the effect we see on the engineers is specific to their genome only.

The hammerpedes were not born from eggs. They were transformed from those worms shown earlier in the movie that were doused in the black pathogen on the floor. Contact with that form of the pathogen mutated them.

If you are so stuck on the Fox marketing material being canon, read that one you were just talking about earlier again :) - Hammerpede - result of indigenous worms of LV-223 being exposed to the Black Liquid.

The film makers also confirm this in the Prometheus supplement materials.

That is the same form of the pathogen that Fifield was exposed to, and he was mutating into something else as well. The form Holloway was exposed to was doing something different to him, as he never became violent or showed signs of the same mutation as Fifield. Just tissue infection and discoloration, and the tiny worm-like parasites inside him.

was going to say that. theres no evidence that the hammerpedes comes form eggs. I believe the intended impression ridley set for them was the worms were infected then mutated into the hammerpeds.

@ Kethol

You're just being a professional troll now. You just keep making the same claims over and over without adding actual evidence. I've already disproven your theory of multiple goos by pointing to the dosage difference of Fifield and Holloway.

The hammerpedes were just mutated worms were they? Then why did we see all those worms writhing about in the goo and not growing into hammerpedes before our eyes? Obviously they were mutating, but the mutation doesn't make them into giant worms. The Fox Evolution guide says Hammerpedes are the "Result of indigenous worms being exposed to the Black liquid", and I agree. The result is that the mutated worms lay eggs (Their reproductive system) which then hatch into hammerpedes. This is what we saw in Holloways eye, a baby hammerpede. Obviously the black goo that David put in his drink had microscopic worm eggs in there too, so he got infected with hammerpedes as well. He obviously didn't live long enough to suffer large hammerpedes erupting from him however. Hamerpedes are to worms as trilobites are to male humans.

1. Use logic while arguing.

2. Use evidence.

3. Admit it when you are wrong.

I do all 3 of these with pleasure.

I can see what ur getting at. the black goo infects the worms and hammerpedes burst out of the worms?

@ ali81

Nah, my idea is that the black goo infects the worms, they lay eggs, which is their method of reproduction (I'm guessing they're hermaphrodites, so they all lay eggs or something), the eggs hatch out into baby hammerpedes, which grow bigger. The hammerpede then tries to infect another host, just as we see one go down the throat of Millburn. Millburn would then burst out with some kind of neomorph or deacon kind of thing, that we never get to see. Ok I admit I have not much evidence for this theory other than just connecting dots and making assumptions. I could be wrong, the hammerpedes could be just mutated worms and due to their different genome...their mutation is different to humans etc. But I want to see my theory refuted with counter-evidence first, before I ditch it. But anyway I have enough evidence for there being only one black goo, so I'm sticking to that idea much more strongly.

well ur gna have to accept that with the material at hand to both sides of the argument, neither can be proved or disproved. u have a theory and some else has a theory. theres is no evidence to prove u wrong but by lack of evidence, u cant prove urself right either, nor can anyone who has a counter theory. that's whats messed up with the goo. its still open to interpretation due to the different effects it has. even ur argument that its purely down to the amount of goo used to infect others isn't based on concrete evidence really.  

@ Yog -

1. Use logic while arguing

2. Use evidence.

3. Admit it when you are wrong.

Turn all those back around on yourself. You have not provided any of the above, other than admitting you were wrong about the motes in another thread.

Seriously, you are missing the obvious stuff. If you can't figure out the hammerpede origin by watching the movie - it is shown logically -  listen to the evidence on the Prometheus commentary and Mr. Lindelof will spell it out clearly for you. And please admit you were wrong after doing so.

The Foxes Alien Covenant Evolution graphic

It appears to be the same kind of hash job as the Prometheus one, where it shows stuff that contradicts what we see in the movie.  So i dont really buy into the FOX explanatory files.  But then this is personal choice due to conflicts i see with what we are shown.

The Alien Covenant Evolution graphic seems pretty accurate apart from the Eggs.. because this then would imply that there is no Egg Morph, No David Experiments, and that A Queen simply lays the Eggs and David must then had experimented on one of these... which some people can read into this if they read the Novel where David claims the Egg (First one he shows Oram) was found as it was and he had nothing to do with it.

The Problem really is the Original Vision which in this case is Jon Spaights Draft, was simple and if this was stuck to more there would be less confusion and everything makes more sense.

It appears as the Prequel developed they just seemed to change things around and around without considering how showing one thing effects the interpretation of others.

So its a bit of a mess really....

Regarding the EYEWORM... this was something that was debated, a bit of a anomaly that lead to various debates years ago... ranging from the conclusion it was just a AWOL Holloway Sperm... which would mean the image i will post next is a Holloway Self Bukkake  lol

Where as i pondered the Eyeworms as maybe being Parasites, and this explained the Tiny Movement in the Goo David had on his Finger and that these Parasites were transmitted the Dr Shaw via SEX like a STD and one of these Parasites infected on of Dr Shaws Egg Cells...  this of course did not sit well with some on here... as it never made sense... but then it does if we considered the Nano-Scarabs (Spaights Alien Engineers).

A few Months after this theory came into my head (no Pun intended) then these were released at the time of the Blu-ray of Prometheus.

These clearly show similar to the Eye Worm, and they are burring into Holloways Skin, the next shot we see his veins all turning back etc.. which is what Holloway indeed looked like prior to Vickers Torching Him.

We cant 100% accept these Props as Canon, but it appears from these Props the Blackening of the Veins/Blood Vessels seems like it happens after the many worm things and as a result of them and not prior.

Looking at Spaights Nano-Scarabs and also the Sacrificial Goo, then maybe the Black Goo contained Nano-Worms that grew and then these would then infect the Host and then we get the similar effects to the ingestion of the Sacrificial Goo by the Engineer.

But alas we cant 100% consider these things, and Alien Covenant to a degree has also changed things, in deed it appears they are toying with what the Black Goo is and does over and over between Prometheus to Alien Covenant.

So indeed it causes confusion... like Originally Fifield was turning into something more Engineer and not a Toxic Avenger, but Ridley Scott had commented based on the Zombie Fifield that he was in the Process of changing just as the Engineer Head was.

So its still a bit of a mess and open to interpretation etc, we cant really 100% discredit some of the theories here or support them either.

@ Kethol

I've probably watched both Prometheus and Covenant many more times than you mate. You're just getting angry because you're wrong about the black goo and can't take the pain. Oh well, some people know how to argue without crying about it. I've given more than enough evidence for there being a single black goo and different genome and dosage effects, so if that isn't going to convince you nothing will.

Mr Lindelof needs to explain why there is a baby hammerpede in Holloway's eye, and why all the worms havn't mutated into hammerpedes, if you are right. But anyway, it could be a massive plot hole, I don't know. There isn't much evidence for the hammerpede life cycle at all.

shaw was impregnated with infected jiz. Holloway was being mutated from the inside which would make his sperm being contaminated make perfect sense. the result was the pathogen using one of shaws eggs to create the trilobite which would then ask the question was shaw herself infected and not just that one egg? it is all over the place and theres no structure to the goo yet. seems to be a case of 'what do we want the goo to do this time?' and the fact its all over the place they can explain it away.

"Nah, my idea is that the black goo infects the worms, they lay eggs, which is their method of reproduction"

I can see what you mean and your not alone on this idea, it was something my Prometheus Re-write was to include before i abandoned it few years ago... my Re-write does indeed show the Hammerpedes had Eggs and also that Milburn had a Chest Buster that i envisioned to be a bit more Human than even the Deacon.

Also i have debated the whole Chest Busted Engineers in the Cryo-Pods in Prometheus before, and Space Jockey and i did wonder potentially could the Hammerpedes had been KEY to the Space Jockey?

Because those Worms have been there for a long time, they never got brought there by the Prometheus Crew, and so was there 2000 years ago.. and if there was a Outbreak... we all know Black Goo + Native worms = Hammerpede.

And so the same thing could have happened in the past and as Worms are Hermaprodites and Egg Layers/Producers all it needs is TWO Hammerpedes (Black Goo Evolved Worms) and we would end up with TWO Hammerpedes with Fertilized Eggs.  In Prometheus when Milburn and Fifield discover the Hammerpedes there are TWO of them.

I will however look at a point you Yog Sothoth brought up by comparing something to the Neomorph/Motes.

If indeed the Black Goo (well stuff in the Glass vials) are Parasitic Worms that act like the Motes in Alien Covenant, then indeed one of these could be passed onto Dr Shaw and actually it incubates in her Womb and Grows into a Trilobite.

So i can see the potential then for one of these Eye-Worms then acting like the Motes in Alien Covenant and growing a Organism inside a Host... this would mean a more simple route to how the Engineers got Chest Busted, if the Black Goo can grow into a Organism inside a Host.

However as Dr Shaws Baby had a Umbilical Cord i will assume it was the result of a Infected/Evolved/Mutated Human Egg Cell.

Things were more straight forwards if we look at how the Nano-Scarabs worked in Alien Engineers.  If we took this route and applied it to the Franchise then the Mural and Frescos all make sense and everything we see in the Prequels does.

Apart from why those Engineers on Paradise remained Mummified Blackened Corpses.

@ BigDave

Sorry dude, I don't agree with anything you said there. I see no problem at all with the Fox evolution graphic. Makes total canon sense to me. They don't have to include that David created the eggs to start with.  Everything else in your post I have already argued against. I think the evidence that its a hammerpede in Holloway's eye is pretty strong. It looks like a tiny hammerpede, so I need to be shown otherwise to believe otherwise. That worms boring into his face thing was never part of the eventual movie, so can be discarded, along with scarabs and the Belugamorph. There is no evidence that anything comes out of the black goo. Things are infected by it. That's all we know. All that X,Y,Z coming out of the goo is BS as far as I'm thinking.

so if nothing comes out of the goo and it is just a liquid, where does the worm like thing in holloways eye come from? the source used to infect him was sealed. how can it be a hammerpede?

Good point....let me watch Prometheus again. Hold on.

hahaha if it helps the source is the urn david takes. he freezes it so it doesn't leak like the rest and when he pulls the contents out, the jars inside are still in their pristine state.

'big things have small beginnings'

OK yeah...That Urn did look very sealed but, maybe those worms can bore their way in, using some kind of acid. I'm gonna have to do some theorizing on how the worms got into the urns.

lol ok but remember ur 3 laws bud especially number 2, evidence lol

Exactly, that's why I'm not so solid on this theory, but it still has a lot going for it. Just not everything is totally clear to me about what's happening here. *Watches again*. Worms are seen on the ground....then wiggling in what looks like sealed urns that have melted at the top. Wow...it's almost impossible to tell what is happening. I've seen this part so many times but..I can't make full sense of it. All I can think is...they burrowed in somehow....but how I don't know.

this mean ur for a Prometheus all nighter? hahaha batter in yogi mate I like ur determination hahaha

I've been on a Prometheus all decader. I've been thinking about this shit constantly since 2012 lol. I want to tie Ridley Scott up with chains, hold a blow torch to his man sack, and tell him to explain all of this stuff 100% clearly as I take notes, or his nuts get grilled slowly.

pmsl and write it down, put it in a movie so the rest of us can have it all make sense

Let's crowd fund a remake of Prometheus and Covenant with a much better director, where everything is fully spelled out with on screen notes, so we can all sleep at night and never fight. Seriously though I think these little mysteries in these movies are really annoying and pointless. Why do we need little mysteries that are there for no reason at all? Why is it a mystery about how those worms are in the goo? Why does it need to be hard to work out these things? The mystery in the original Alien...was an ultimate mystery eg. The entire thing was one big mystery, where did the derelict ship come from? What was that Jockey? What was the Alien? Where was it all from? Now we know most of the big answers...but we have small pointless mysteries to fight over like "Are the motes insects or not?" WHY ISN'T IT 100% CLEAR? FOR EVERYONE GYAHH. I quit.

hahahaha maybe once the series finished everything will go 'click' into place n wel all gather in a big open field and do one of those running slow mo running things and embrace????

but all these questions was the whole reason for RS returning in the first place. think hes gotten lost a bit

@Yog Sothoth

I see you are leaning towards only what the Movies show as Canon, which i think is the right way but its a way that leads to confusion... the other drafts and concept works all help to try and make sense of the mess we see on screen.

FOX come up with these Files in a attempt to show us what they had now intended but to me they contradict things a bit, but this is just a personal view by me.

The movies are a bit ambiguous and so everyone will see things a bit differently and we cant really come to any 100% Bullet Proof Theory or Answer.... apart from taking the Files FOX release and David Narration at Face Value.

The Eyeworm does not look like a Hammerpede, in part it does but if you watch Prometheus it appears to have something like tentacles or something at the top, but then it could be showing more than one worm.  But its so quick that its hard to make 100% out.

The ambiguity with the movie means we can speculate a lot of things, for instance if the Top of the Glass Vials contains small worm like Organisms or some other Parasite that grow into the Eye-Worms that then grown into those worms on LV-223

The only way the Eye-Worm is a Hammerpede is if the Black Goo is in effect Hammerpedes, Holloway was only exposed to the Ampoule/Glass Vial Contents of the Urns.

The Worms in Prometheus looked different, but then we get TWO different looking to a degree Worms if we consider the "our first Alien" deleted Scene.

Regarding the Urns Melting.... indeed we get the one shot of something moving on the one Urn...  but in other shot we see the Top of the Urn Appears to be Melting like it was like a WAX material.

I can only assume there is a component/process inside that reacts with the outer casing under certain circumstances that causes the Tops of the Urns to Melt Away.

And in Alien Covenant something happens to the Urns during the Arming and dropping of those Urns that completely destroys the Urn outer Casing causing them to explode.

Ha Ha

Indeed Yog Sothoth a more Spoon Fed and Spelt out A-Z would have prevented such debates and such... but then i think the Beauty of Prometheus was its ambiguity, because if the movie was more Spoon Fed etc.. we would not be debating such things over many years on sites like this.

This is the One Come Back that Lindeloff has used in the past when defending his work on Prometheus due to its unanswered and half answered questions... he said that the ambiguity he did has led to many places debating the movie over and over and so he is proud of this.

Lindeloff also did say however that Prometheus has enough answers there, its just they are hard to find  and so take investment of time looking over and over the movie to try and make such theories up.

Every new piece of concept/draft or deleted Scene for Prometheus and Alien Covenant does allow us to go back to Prometheus and then look at the clues over and over again due to the new information and clues we are given after Prometheus came out

I really hope once the Prequels are done... that in time people would got and study and watch Prometheus more and then become more interested in what it was trying to show.

Adding little mysteries is childish and annoying, I hate it. It doesn't help the plot, the atmosphere or anything. It's just fuel for logic and canon geeks like us to fight over for years. The average viewer is just going to shrug and not understand it. The mystery in Alien worked, was well placed and had a reason. The mystery in these prequels is pointless, as they are meant to be explaining things, and they do explain things, but leave these little puzzles of maddening pointlessness. You work out a solution to a mystery and what does it give you? *Oh ...the motes are tiny insects afterall*..and..*So that's exactly how David made the Xenomorph*....and.....*So that's why Milburn stroked the hammerpede*....  WOW THAT'S CHANGED MY WORLDVIEW. Ridley Scott is finished after this. Someone put him in an old people's home please. We don't need a group hug, we are arguing because Ridley Scott is now a crap director. Sadly.

Interesting thread.

I think I can help with the worm thing. In one of the DVD commentaries Scott or one of the guys who wrote Prometheus says something about the black ooz making them grow from the smaller worms into the larger hammerpede worm. We had some big arguments over on the RPF years ago about that one. There is also a scene of the small worms swimming in the goo in the movie.

I don't know if that has anything to do with the eye worm, but it is definitely said that the small worm and large hammerpede are one and the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVgVB3qsySQ

Yog Sothoth 

 I want to tie Ridley Scott up with chains, hold a blow torch to his man sack, and tell him to explain all of this stuff 100% clearly as I take notes, or his nuts get grilled slowly.

lol, Id pay to see that as a movie :P

However I imagine this would be his response.

David turns out to be an android Wizard...and he just "did it". Solved.

Tidy solution, I like it. David would make a good android-wizard lol :)

@Yog Sothoth

I can fully understand why some may want a more simple kind of movie, a more direct connection to ALIEN and not touching on the Philosophical Themes, Creation Themes and whole David Arc as well as the ambiguity.

For some this stuff is great.... for many its one of the reasons people just could not Understand Prometheus, its a movie that is not straight forward if you only see it a few times or with a narrow view....  its a movie that requires more viewings and taking into account all sorts of extras and other pieces of clues and information like Viral Sites to make better sense.

Sadly not every person will invest all that effort to just maybe make the movies plot something they can better understand.

This whole Plot/Angle and Objective/Theme of Prometheus is something different to the Straight up more Spoon Fed Elements of the Alien Franchise and its Alien Horror => Alien Action => Alien Horror = Alien Action kind of route.

Prometheus was different because they decided to give us something different that opens up a way to explore something more than just HOW/WHY/WHEN and WHERE the Xenomorph was created etc.  Hence Prometheus was Born out of what was Alien Engineers which was pretty much more in line with Alien movies.

so it was a Persudo Prequel of sorts yet ALIEN/ALIENS Fans in General expected more of a Prequel... the Space Jockey Mystery was to be explored but it appears the Franchise Fans are more concerned with he Xenomorph.

And so indeed Prometheus and its themes and ambiguity did not cater to the expectations of kind of flick that a lot of the Franchise Fans expected... and then if we take the General Public then with these a higher % would also not get into or understand or invest seeing a movie like Prometheus, if they dont get it after 1-2 viewings they are not likely to do some Homework and look at all other Material and then come back to Prometheus and see if they can grasp it better.

I think Alien Covenant will make some fans go and see Prometheus again or for the first time...

But i think the aim from now on will not be about the Black Goo, it will now be about those Face Huggers and how they can lead to Thousands of Xenomorph Eggs in the more simplest and straightforwards way.

I am concerned this route would be a Face Hugger + Daniels = Egg Laying or Egg Morphing Xenomorph.

"Adding little mysteries is childish and annoying"

Little mysteries like what the hell are all those eggs in the Derelict about? Or where the hell did this monster come from?

I live for mysteries like these. Especially when you get some really cool answers followed up by further mysteries.

Dude, those mysteries were BIG mysteries and part of the first movie. Alien was one big mystery with nothing explained. Now with Covenant, we have most of the big questions explained...but we have little tiny artificial mysteries woven in for no reason at all..that even if we solve..add nothing to the overall storyline. It's just ....pointless. If they are going to explain things..AT LEAST explain the little things...and leave the big mysteries if you need to have mystery.

I also agree that "ambiguity" is a very good thing, but with this caveat... it must be handled and executed in a proper way.

Take some of Stanley Kubrick films for example. Most of his films are so well thought out, and so well crafted that ambiguity actually enhances and enriches them.

You can say the same thing about the original "ALIEN" film too, and many people have. The overall quality of the ALIEN movie, and the mysteries it introduced... created a franchise, and a whole other world... like Star Wars did.

But the sad facts are that Prometheus and AC have just not lived up to the same standards as those other examples. Ridley Scott has not taken the necessary care and/or time to really flesh out the stories and provide a thorough and concise storyline. And the films have suffered for it.

I just hope that he has some sort of master plan for all of this, and that he can tie everything together in a satisfactory way when it's all said and done.

@Yog, I strongly disagree. We know diddly-squat about the Engineer civilisation, where they came from, how many strands of society they have, who engineered them, where the goo came from... These are all big questions.