A Closer Look at the Bombing Sequence

@ Thombach

I admit when I make errors, unlike some people on this forum (Kethol). All I need is evidence then I will agree and change my mind. I still think there was 1 original black goo pathogen to start with. I still see no evidence of the original black goo raining down as a "swarm" or anything. But hey. Im sick of debating that point now.

that's it yogi everything has been left so open that a dozen people can watch it in a theatre and when they emerge, theres 8 different versions of what they saw. if you bring the novel into the fold, then david says the ovamorph egg was already there so it could just so be that the engineers had much more things lying around that david stumbles upon. who knows what real and what isn't. I just get the feeling RS and fox are bashing out 3/4 of a story line then when asked 'oh so how did this work?' they have room to manoeuvre in their replies and explanations. by keeping things so vague, its hard to prove them wrong

There does seem to be some structure in the life cycle etc. But yes it is very vague and Dues Ex Machina at times - It does this simply because it does..no other reason.

could be true yogi and that would be fine and dandy, but again, nothing has been given to show this so in the mean time, wer all left to debate it out. it is fun debating it tho and seeing all the different theories people come up with.

I'm gonna have to re-write some of my theory now after reading this script...DAMN IT. I had it all worked out as well. Im gonna sue RS for being too mysterious.

@Sothoth - Why all the hate on Kethol? I read this whole thread and it seems he and others gave you the same evidence, which you said was wrong, but later said was right and why you changed your mind. At least 3 times in this one thread you did that. Maybe 4 if you are admitting MACRO means a zoomed in close-up in the script, now that you have read it.

We all have different theories on things and won't agree on everything, but it is fun debating. Seems to be some unnecessary bickering going on though.

hahaha yogi, aint it just sickning when that happens. iv done it myself on here. iv said 'naw man its like this' and then someone hits me with something and I think 'u bastard, I had that sown up tighter than a ducks ass and now uv made me rethink' hahaha dam u ridley scott lol

@ Thombach

I've been arguing with Kethol for a long time about 2 specific points.

1) Was there one black goo to start with, or many types of it?   2) Does said black goo (or a type of it) have the power to instantly produce life out of itself?

I still don't think he has supplied any strong evidence for there being more than one original black goo. I will hold to my idea of one goo util he (or anyone else) supplies such evidence.

On the "goo producing life" question, well before reading this Logan script I would have said "No never", but now reading the script I'm not too sure. The wording used by David seems very ambiguous. I'm just going to read it a few dozen times and make my mind up.

Before that we also argued about the motes from the egg sacs. I thought they were tiny blobs, he thought they were insects. He was proven right by showing me evidence of David's drawings from the "Advent" scenes. I accept when I'm wrong.

That "Macro" question was just beacuse I hadn't seen the context of the script. Now I have read it I accept it is talking about a zoomed in view. I was confused by the term "Macroscopic" vs "Microscopic" which mean zoomed out and zoomed in. But it seems that when talking about photography...it's different..and this script is using that terminology. Again I admit when I am wrong.

Kethol has shown evidence for a few points and I have agreed with him each time he did. But on the multiple black goos question he hasn't given me enough evidence at all...yet still holds to it as fact. That is my main argument with him now, along with his idea that the blobs of black goo rained down by David are "insects", I discount that also for lack of evidence. But anyway.

OK, but go back a few pages. The MACRO thing had just been posted - a quoted section directly from the script. Your replied in the next post that there was no evidence and argued that MACRO meant zoomed out, even though the script described a close up. I confirmed macro meant zoomed in script, which I just read, then you rudely told me to stop being professionally wrong. Others also chimed in to try and explain you were wrong. Now you agree with us.

Point being, you were given the same evidence you later claimed changed your mind, but told us we were wrong anyway. It just seems so unnecessary.

Your point #1, I am still on the fence with. Seems it could be either way. I have not seen any hard evidence presented here for one version. Lots of things indicate it has to be more than one, or just inconsistent writing on the writers part.

I have not seen your point #2 to argued here anywhere, but I have not read all the threads. I'm not sure if I agree the black goo can instantly produce life out of itself. I don't know how that could be argued. Seems it needs some animal DNA to mutate or infect first.

@Thombach

Look, I'm sorry ok, I just had no access to the script. I saw you using the word "Macro" and was confused as to the context. I only called you "professionally wrong", because I thought you were misusing the word, turns out I was wrong and I'm sorry for that. I will be sorry if I ever make errors. That's why I'm honest.

Back to those points 1) Most of what I have read about both movies points to just one pathogen, with varying effects based on different genome of victim (different animals), different dosage (a drop vs a face full of it), and the method of infection (in the nose, or in the mouth).

2) There are some bits in this script that seem to point to the black goo producing life on it's own (hence the mold with the egg sacs), but the wording is very ambiguous, I'm siding with your view I think for now, that the goo always needs other DNA to work on, but here are the quotes from the script -

David - "It was designed to infect every living being. Either kill them outright, or mutate into a different lethal form, so the slaughter would never end until every humanoid life form was dead. Thus the creatures that attacked you: Human DNA infected with the virus and creating yet more deadly mutations ... An endless spiral of predation."

David - "The pathogen took so many forms, and was extremely mutable. Fiendishly inventive in fact. The original black liquid turned to lethal particles when exposed to air. Later stages produced parasites and invasive insects. From their eggs came, well... this enviable bestiary."

ORAM - "There were things like this on the ship, they grew out of a kind of black fur, like mold ... An evolution from the pathogen I take it?

DAVID - "Yes. I was curious so I brought them here and nursed them along. Did a bit of genetic experimentation, some cross breeding, hybridizing, what-have-you."

I know this script isn't final, but I doubt these ideas were changed much cuz they arn't very consequential. I'm still sort of guessing the Black goo pathogen needs host DNA to work on, it's just confusing how the script calls it "the virus" when its talking about the insects infecting humans. So confusing. Glad they fixed that bit at least.

yogi, if I may. I took from the discussion between urself and kethol a disagreement on the theory there were more than one form of the weaponized mutagen. speaking only for myself as kethol can quite clearly speak for himself lol I believe yes, there was only 1 original source of the black goo that the engineers have then taken and through whatever process they used, have created several types of the mutagen. I take this from what I have seen in Prometheus and AC. we see the sacrificial scene where the goo seems to bubble and move. then we have the goo that oozes out of the urn when the crew alter the pressure in the room. when we do see it, it seems to me to just be a thick liquid, nothing to suggest insect or worm like organisms within it. then we see the bombing scene and for me, it looks like the cloud of good moves and swarms. we then have the different effects from one engineer breaking down, to worms and members of the crew 'mutating' to engineers being turned to charcoal.

Ali81 - Nailed it. My thoughts exactly on each point.

Thombach, the idea that there have to be several forms of the pathogen I have discussed many times here - I made a whole topic here on it - but I have never said black goo can instantly produce life out of itself, or anything like that, nor have I had any discussion about that idea with anyone here.

I don't even remember anyone here saying that before. Interesting idea, but I don't think anything in the movies, scripts or book indicates that. Pathogens would need proteins to read DNA and replicate itself, create new cells, et cetera. They don't do that. They just steal that stuff from cells they infect and make the cells do it for them.

This is the Alien universe, so anything is possible though!

@ali81 & Kethol

Well that's your view, I need a lot more convincing to believe in multiple goos. David says the pathogen "generates a unique reaction with every genome it encounters" not The different pathogens have unique reactions.

So that's how I interpret it.

@ Kethol

Maybe I had that discussion with someone else. Sorry.

I get what ur saying yogi and u may even be right. the issue here is the films have left everything about the goo so open. even in davids dialogue and description of it can be taken in several contexts. u have ur theory as u have preserved all the material as have I and we have come to 2 different theories. I do enjoy the theorising tbh and in a way don't want it to end by having something definitive produced but I would like to think wel see something that will straighten it out. I do think that the 1 source is tied in with the creature depicted in the mural. not sure how, another topic I think.

Oh I would much rather this was explained fully, in some decent backup material. I find it annoying that inconsequential things are a mystery. I mean, would it change the overall story that much if there are multiple goos each with it's own reaction, or one goo with multiple reactions by genome. It wouldn't change the story much at all.....so this is such a pointless mystery.

Ridley Scott might as well be saying "Guess what's in my hand?".  We say - "a matchstick?"   "nope"   "a jelly baby?"   "nope"    "a button?"   "nope"     "a coin?"    "YES!!"   

"Well that's solved that then....."

yea these little things do try and test us but its something that I think adds to the engineers mythology. but I do agree, the direct story involving the humans, no it doesn't change it much. but u have to remember alien is nearly 40 years old and is almost a Hollywood 'national treasure'. it is close to perfect imo and will stand the test of time even in another 40 years. fans who grew up with it like myself want it all tied up nice n neatly in a pretty red bow and in a way that does the original justice. for me, I just want to be really entertained, have the alien universe opened up and explored and then have it all fit in with the derelict on lv426. its not a lot to ask but RS seems to be losing some things here.

wer a fickle bunch but wer passionate about alien and the franchise. you could argue only star wars rivals the alien universe for such passion and that spills over into continuity where stories and plots are concerned. he cant please everyone, I get that, but at the very least he can please me lol

Ali, I agree, David's dialogue seems to be purposefully written to be taken in several contexts. Even in the John Logans script David says "The Engineers were ingenious with their pathogens" - plural.

Then the very next sentence says "It was designed to infect every living being" - singular!

You have to add Doctor Who and Star Trek to that list also dude lol.

Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek and Alien. The sci-fi franchises that grown men will fight over.

Late to the party here. To the OP, nice captures, and I liked this scene but thought it was a bit odd to see the pathogen take effect immediately on contact.

@ dk

David says, in the "Advent" extension, that the pathogen "generates a unique reaction with every genome it encounters"

One effect is killing engineers quickly, with super fast parasite burstings.

Yog Sothoth Yes, it helps to explain and even excuse discrepancies- reminds me a bit of the different gestation times of the chest bursters during all movies including AVPR. I will just go with it and enjoy personally.

@ Thombach

Yeah, it does mention pathogens then talks about the singular "it". Hard to grasp what he means. Could it be that David is refering collectively to all the urns as "their pathogens", but each urn contains the same pathogen?

Nice catch Thombach! I completely missed he went from plural to singular there when I read it.

This is very deep thread and I am not reading everything, but here is what I think about the different urn sizes.

In the bombing scene in A:C, all of the urns organized themselves in the air in a circular pattern.  It was vary organized.  So, I think the different urn sizes is related to their organization before the contents get released.

It would make sense for the bigger urns to go to the outside of the formation and the smaller ones to go towards the middle because the bigger ones have further reach than the smaller ones.  Anything or anyone towards the middle (where the small urns are) have NO CHANCE OF ESCAPING.  If they run, they will only run into more black goo.  So, there is no reason to pour as much goo in the middle.  Now, the things or living beings towards the outside could actually run away from underneath the bombs.  So, there are bigger urns on the outside to have more spread when the explode.  This would hopefully, in war, kill the things or beings towards the outside.  

Of course, this is just speculation.

Aren't all the urns in the bomb bay exactly the same size? I'll have to check again but just watched it on a big screen last night. I could swear they were all the same. I'm still trying to figure out why they all explode like they hit an invisible shell in the sky before the black clouds start to swarm down.

What I thought was interesting is that the urns float into position before dropping. Nothing touches them.

I like how when they drop, they form a pattern like a DNA helix too.

@Thombach

You may be right, but, as far as we know, that juggernaut came from LV-223, so why would it be different?

Isn't the one found in Prometheus holding different urn sizes?

I can't remember that detail.

Also, Thombach, if you can, take a screen shot of the urns suspended in air if you can!

I would really appreciate it!  

The urns in the first juggernaut in Prometheus are all kinds of different sizes, but the ones we see in the bomb bay room of the ship David and Shaw took seem to be all the same.

The screen shots post so small that is is difficult to see, but they are floating. There is no carriage or rack mechanism to suspend and move them, but something moves them.

In that AVP podcast with Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton they seemed to think this was the urns breaking on the planetary shield described in the script.

The look of the storage room David is in by the opening looks like a place a never saw in Prometheus.  Maybe there is structural order to the way they must be released.  I guess the big ones are released first so that they have the space to float to the outside and then the smaller ones get released to fill in the middle.  That way the urns don't collide as they move around and get into position before exploding. 

Thanks for shots Kethol!

I just watched that scene again with the brightness turned up on my tv. All the urns are exactly the same size. I did notice the writing on them is different in one shot. The same shot in Kethol's first screen grab.

From what I can tell, the urns float off the vertical racks of urns stacked in the walls and float through the air to the center of the bomb bay. They line up in concentric circles over the hole in the floor until they drop and hit the shield barrier thing. I guess the urns don't really explode, they just break on the barrier, then the goo atomizes and the small particles slip through.

In the urn drop sequence, it does indeed look like they hit some kind of invisible barrier/shield, but I assume it's just a way of deploying the virus far away enough from the ship so it doesn't infect the crew.

It wouldn't make much sense to have a barrier over the city, if the juggernaut was going to land in the hangar bay below.

The hanger automatically opens as the docking ship and juggernaut approach each other, so I doubt there's any shield in place to protect the people below

And if there was, what a crappy shield it was! :P

It was probably an automated defense that went up as soon as the pathogen was detected. It did seem to stop the urns, as they were solid and broke on it, but once the pathogen atomized into smaller particles, it just passed through.

Here is what Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett said about the shield on the AVP podcast when they were asked if there was anything in the script that they wished had made the final cut.

MATT - Dane, do you remember when there was the whole thing of the…

DANE - Quarantine. Oh yeah, the satellite.

MATT - Yeah, yeah. The quarantine sort of net over the planet.

DANE - yeah, I forgot that.

MATT - I think a touch of that is still in there, where he (David) drops the bombs and they seem to spread over an invisible sort of shield, but then they break through, and that sort of thing…There was this whole thing earlier on where they (Covenant crew) had to fix the satellite to try and take that thing down so that they could get through this electrical storm thing. It seems like there are just parts of that now.

DANE - Just in case anyone didn't know what that was, in the script originally there was… the Engineers had created  this satellite that would protect any foreign bodies coming in or out of the planet. That's what was preventing all of the transmissions from getting through and that's also what stopped David from getting out clear SOS's, or whatever it was.

OK, another obsrvation about the black stuff.

In Prometheus we see it leak from some of the urns when the air is disturbed after 2000 years. David's sees the stuff is moving on top of the urn, forming into blob shapes. Just before David bags an urn to take back to the ship the black stuff is jumping off the top of the urn into the air, going crazy. Whatever it was doing, it seems to be able to move and shape change without needing any animal tissue to infect and mutate.

In the bombing scene the little black particles are swarming through the air in all directions before they even get to the Engineers. How? They have not infected the tissue of any animal to transmute into a flying organism, so how are they flying? Did they form into a flying or flapping shapes to move through the air?

This description of the motes got me thinking of this.

"Ever changing it its form--lurching and stabbing into new shapes - oily black and beautiful"

That is exactly how I would describe the goo on top of the Urn David was looking at.

@ Thombach

Well observed. Those urns are obviously designed to expel the goo when activated. When they start melting (for whatever reason), we see the goo basically squirting out slowly from the top of the urn, like ketchup, then running down the sides, onto those worms. Perhaps they were semi activated, which caused them to ooze out the goo, rather than explode totally.

Those black particals were not "flying". They were falling down from the sky and blowing in the wind like rain. Rain doesn't fall directly down, it is blown in all directions.

Motes are a different thing to goo. In the movie, we know they were tiny insects, that early script has them changing shape..but they are still different to the black goo. I've noticed a lot of differences between that script and the final movie as well, now that I've actually read it.

Sothoth, what size tv are you watching Covenant on? Also, DVD or Blu Ray?

Thombach, I thought the same thing when I saw that description of the mote from the script. The shape-change thing must have been an early idea of what they were supposed to look like.

The fact that the pathogen alone was able to move and form rough shapes on top of the leaking urns in Prometheus does give some clue as to how the black particles are able to fly and swarm in the Covenant urn-drop scene. They move incredibly fast though. It was like a swarm of locusts or bees they way they were attacking and coating the Engineers in a few of those shots.

David also says the later stages of the pathogen produced the insects, so the swarming things were definitely not those. I know you did not say that. Just pointing it out. "The original black liquid turned to lethal particles when exposed to air. Later stages produced parasites and invasive insects. From their eggs came, well..."

@ Thombach, Blu-ray, standard HD TV. I don't think there's anything more to this scene really. Just drops of black goo falling and hitting.

Drop a bucket of water from the top of a skyscraper...it won't fall straight down, some will blow back up slightly. *Shrugs* maybe our eyes see different things in the same movie.

@ Kethol

Correct, by "later stages" it means later effects within the victim. The goo causes a life form to spawn parasites, tiny insects in the mold's case, which then infect another host, creating our friend the neomorph.

Slightly off topic, but I find it interesting how that script has the xenomorph eggs coming from those fungal egg sacs. David specifically says he nurtured them, somehow adding different DNA to them, to create the xenomorph eggs.

I don't see how this can be canon. In the "Advent" material, David says that the local life forms didn't prove to be "very fruitful" in creating his "Wolf" (the Xenomorph). Then he says that he used Shaw as the main source for the xenomorph, while "tweaking" her mutated DNA, showing that he used various neomorph's DNA in this tweak, possibly using black goo as a catalyst.

The differences from this script are very interesting, in this and other areas.

Interesting notes about the Shield... so this could very well be the case, and i guess it would maybe give us a reason for why the Cathedral Dome has those Devices on top?  I assumed prior to AC that they was some kind of Device that left of a Energy Weapon that simply killed off all Life in the Plaza to Prevent the Black Goo Spreading and so would answer why the Bodies are like Mummified and we dont see any Engineers suffering the effects as shown in Prometheus.

Maybe instead this Technology is what produces the Shield?  The draft mentions like Satellites well something in Space, but we clearly dont see any proof of this in Alien Covenant.

Then again it could be just some kind of Solar Panel to produce Energy needed for the City.

As far as the Black Goo, it can appear at bit confusing and i still stand by that if we look at it as intended by Jon Spaights, then its straight forwards and fits with the whole Engineers Purpose which is Genetic Engineering.

The Sacrificial Goo is thus a Creation Tool, the Question now would be is it a Viral/Pathogen, a Mutagen, or a Parasite?  I would say it has all 3 Elements.