Ridley Scott on the problem with Sci-fi

Many believe that Lindelof left things too ambiguous but I felt he and Spaihts created a perfect duo. My feelings is that they pushed back a bit on Ridley with some issues and could have concocted a tailor made sequel/AC for Scott, since they know his shortcomings(character quality/storytelling flow) but the anointed one would have his yes man crony in John Logan. There is no doubt that Ridley gave Prom a longer time to bake in the oven vs Covvy where he seemed to be on a mission to shit out as much crap as possible in consecutive filming windows. As always if I was kingmaker, i'd give Michelle J the keys & toolbox to run the world and after she quickly fixed all that she could then build the leadership to deliver us a great AlienJockeyAndroid movie. I can't stand when people blame certain parts of the fanbase for a studio's / director's shortcomings but that's they're right to !mention. Another thing is this straw man argument about Prometheus's lack of xenos, etc & A5 affecting AC. It's just too painful to see Ridley or whoever to completely sidestep the main issue being choppy storytelling and unbelievable characters. Prom was pretty damn solid for me so why did RS double down on shit characters? Because he only sees in visuals and pushing his philosophical symbolism at all costs. Its more than a bummer because I liked Exodus:gods n kings and Billy Crudup but my gosh that dialogue in Covvy was just unforgivable. Its main themes don't bother me but the structure was so misguided that I don't trust Scott and refuse to pay for a ticket unless real people say its fixed. "Word of Mouth" is what sells tickets for most successful movies that aren't comic cgi fest's, hence why a director(where the buck stops) has to create great storytelling balanced with good characters that inspire audiences to spread the hype. Just a shame some old dogs refuse to learn a new trick

"And I would say the whole Alien formula is dead not just the beast."

I think this in part was why RS/FOX decided that they had to try and bring something a bit NEW and Interesting to the Franchise... which was the (1) Space Jockey/Engineers being Creators and who had Created, Evolved and Interacted/Taught Mankind.   They then grew Disappointed and Fearful of their Wayward Creations... and (2) in a attempt to UNDO their Creation they Experimented on Various forms of Xenomorph Biological Warfare.

While this Ancient Plot was followed... they tried to introduce it more into current time Context, by showing us (3) a repeating Hubris with our Creation of Synthetic Lifeforms.

Then FOX felt that actually (1) and (3) are interesting and to expand on them and Totally Tone down (2)  they then saw that a lot of Fans expected more Clear Xenomorph Answers, and found Dr Shaw's Quest for Answers was stepping away from ALIEN and that the Engineers were a bit disappointing.   And so FOX Assumed, that bringing the Xenomorph Origins back and having Xenomorphs would make a Movie that would attract more Box Office... and Ridley Scott was also a FAN of exploring the David Arc.

Hindsight is a Wonderful Thing!

A First Prequel that offers a Mixture of Alien Engineers and Prometheus with some Xenomorph like Monsters and more Clues to the Xenomorph and Space Jockey Event..... would have Satisfied those who had problems with Prometheus... and then allowed a Prometheus Sequel to go off and explore the kinds of things RS/FOX had intended with Prometheus and a Potential Sequel.

But ALAS... what is done is done.

"And did/do we really need another human ship arrives and gets infected movie?"

This really is the kind of Corner they have Written themselves into... the Options look likely to be.

1) A ALIEN meets PANDORUM which is actually a idea i had a while ago now, prior to me even knowing what Pandorum was... which was that David is Experimenting with the Crew... his Experiments get out of control and Part of the Covenant is Quarantined.   The Covenant Arrives at its Destination... or a Destination David had chosen... and another Cryo-Bay opens and Crew Awake.. or a Few do at some point.. and these then go off to Explore the Ship and find they cant access the Bridge or Main Area... so they manage to Break the Quarantine Seals and open access to the Ship only to discover a Xenomorph Hive and Eggs.

But this would be pretty much a Hadleys Hope on board the Covenant.  And then its how does this Tie to ALIEN... logically a sequel where we explore the World the Covenant Arrives at/Near by the time the Colonist awaken...   This is a idea i thought of for ALIEN: AWAKENING because well the Crew Awaken to a Alien Nightmare.

2) A ALIENS Remake of sorts.... we arrive years after the Colony has been set up on Origae-6 before Davids Experiments are unleashed.... and so we arrive at a incoming Weyland Ship that discovers the Colony Partially Set Up... but NO-ONE is home... They discover David who tries to Lure them into a Trap... they then find some Hidden Surviving Colonist who try and Warn them... But its too late as the other team is led off to be overwhelmed by Davids Creations... where the other Team and Surviving Colonist must Battle for Survival.

But this just gives us a kind of ALIENS again... where we arrive a few weeks prior where there are a few more survivors than just Newt.. Then its how do this connect to ALIEN.... again  this could be with a incoming Weyland Ship with a Agenda... where they either go off to LV-223 or the next movie is set on Origae-6 still.

Option 2 would be a kind of After-Math of what happens after the Colony Attempts to set up their New Paradise... Before they discover who DAVID is and then $%£$%^ HITS the Fan.

I have a 3rd option that would be my Alien: Ascension but this Plot is more about Humanity and AI and would be kind of the prequel to Option 2

"And then, who are the people who die to be "Spoon Fed the Space Jockey Questions"?"

This has to be and would apply to Option 1 and 2 and well 3 too... that incoming Engineers have to arrive to allow us to get our ENGINEER Ship that then a sequel would maybe see this Ship at somepoint head towards LV-223 where they either Land and Evolve the Xenomorph there and attempt to Leave (But Crash on LV-426) ... or this (Evolution of the Xenomorph) is done prior and they are taking it to LV-223 but only get as far as LV-426

I cant really see any other Options.... not how the Alien Covenant has set up its Cliff-Hanger and the Advent and also Ridley Scotts comments...

If we are going the route that WITHOUT David arriving at Planet 4 and his Experiments then there would be NO Derelict and EGGS in ALIEN... then those TWO options in the previous post OR the idea i settled on for a Alien Covenant Sequel are kind of the only options to go really....

Unless they go for a David is not the Creator... and they do another Prequel that ignores Alien Covenant.... and so we go off to LV-223 or the company arrive at Planet 4.

But i feel RS/FOX would follow the Plot/Path of David and so that limits us to HIM and the Covenant Ship and Colonist heading towards Origae-6 where David would surely Create/Obtain more Xenomorphs and then see a incoming Weyland Ship or TWO and incoming Engineer Ship or TWO etc.

So a Plot that would require 2 Sequels.... unless they go for a Option 2 in my previous Post but make it a 2.5-3 hour movie... that would need a lot of Forced and Contrived Plot Elements/Scenes.

@BigDave Sorry but Alien Covenant was a remake of Alien, well in the words of my team-lead(not a big Alien franchise fan, but is on the Cameron side) it was a "meh remake" at that. So another one?

And regarding Prometheus, i don't think it is so clear that inclusion of more Alien stuff would have sold more tickets. It might have received criticism of being a tired retread of Alien (as Covenant did) and that the Alien should have not required a backstory (again, as Covenant did).

But the most stupid part was that they were on shaky grounds before Covenant and they left to room to back down (Did they learn nothing from Cubed? Or from Resurrection?  Or from AVP:R?). They were absolutely sure they could make sequels before even seeing the results. And of course AC is a story about hubris, but Fox's and Scott's.

I agree AC was a bit of a Alien Re-hash to a degree....

Prometheus actually did well at the Box Office, it had some criticism because a lot of people who KNEW it was a Alien Franchise movie expected that there should have been Xenomorphs and Answers to the Xenomorphs Origins and some even needing to KNOW what happened to the Space Jockey.

The Problem they was left with was the BOLD Plot about the Engineers, and IF David and Dr Shaw go off to where these Engineers are, then Discovering these beings who are NOT Benevolent would leave them having to explain WHY in the Franchise we had no Engineers apart from the Space Jockey.

These beings must either had.

*Been Destroyed for the Most Part.

*Not been Aware of our Creation.

*Been Aware but Chose to Abandon us.

*Are Located very very Far away.

No soon as Dr Shaw and David Turn up... if they was aware of us and our intended destruction but chose to abandon us and leave us to ROT, then No Soon as we turn up on their DOOR STEP... what Transpires that avoids them from coming back to interact with us and potentially Destroy us...

The only Logical Route would be that David and Dr Shaw unleash a Can of Black Goo Whoop Ass...

So this was kind of the Set-up.... but they just could not settle on a way to Handle This.. due to the WHAT IF'S and WHAT NEXT and then its how do you introduce more Human Characters as having just Dr Shaw with David to Translate between her and Engineers would be a Tricky movie that would not Work or Interest other Fans.

So when FOX Felt Fans wanted Xenomorphs and Origins... i could see that the Change in Plot to Alien Covenant allowed for a more Shoe-horned Plot to ALIEN.. introduce Humans and Side Step the Tricky way to Handle Dr Shaw and the Engineers and HOW they would have interacted via David.

Doing a alternative Prometheus 2 was a tricky task.... as there is only so much you can do with Dr Shaw and David meets Engineers, or Wipe out Engineers leaving just handful...  Not without Humans coming into play and also Fans may want a bit more Xenomorph Clues and Shenanigans.

Prometheus did not need "more Xenomorphs" it simply needed to contextualise their creation clearly with in the creation myth that Prometheus was moving toward. 

I think the problem Big Dave with you not being able to see the potential of Shaw/David and Engineers is like Fox you believe the Prometheus movies have to be action/horror movies. Its perfectly clear and I G is making the point in a different way that ship has sailed, that the ideas of Prometheus 1 2 and 3 would have been philosophically challenging with great atmosphere but they were not going to work as a action movies. They would be dark and horrific but in what they made you think not which part of some parasite came out of the body.

Prometheus "failed to communicate" clearly its relationship with the first films thats all.  

That some fans want Sigourney to show attitude with denture features simply shows a lot of baby boomers have lost their appetite for enquiry but that should be ignored its a busted flush. 

@BigDave

I think to say that the Engineers had to be destroyed "in the story" because they do not feature in A L I E N is to miss the potential of science fiction and your reducing the galaxy, just as David creating the Xeno's does. Shaw and David were going somewhere else and would never come back. The Engineers seeded earth billions of years ago and the rebellious lot went up in smoke 2,000 years ago.That mother, the daughter of Peter Weyland in many ways, and the science division, who themselves were A I, would keep prior knowledge, like the ark hidden, is perfectly plausible.

They would use biological life on the Nostromo as fodder (a lot like our friendly monster) it was perfectly easy to create a plausible reason no one new about LV223 or Paradise. A. I. can bide its time for millennia. That the science division is A I fits perfectly with their founders vision. This is where ret conning can be very artistic and add weight to what we "later" see, unfortunately neither Sphaits or Lindelof were the kind of writers that dealt with that kind of detail. Its something that the relatively light weight Star Wars and more complex Star Trek makes more of an attempt at.       

@Michelle Johnston sorry to disagree with you, but such a twist would undermine the whole anti-corporate message of the series. So corporations would be good, but they threat humans as disposable because they were undertaken by a unhinged AI, therefore they are not evil per se... Nope, I don't like this. And how in the Hell did WY become a part of Walmart in Resurrection? Or is that not canon anymore? Or Walmart to was overtaken by AI and all they to is to continue Capitalism? This seems rather satirical and idiotic at the same time.

"I think the problem Big Dave with you not being able to see the potential of Shaw/David and Engineers"

I am actually pretty much the same as how you had hopes for the Franchise Michelle i have for years been a bit of a advocate of the Philosophical Elements...   My ideas for Prometheus 2 would not have pleased Alien Fans looking for Xenomorphs, and my idea for Alien Covenant Part 2 would also not really suit them.   I totally liked the Direction Ridley Scott was trying to take, and i thought there was a lot of potential in the Story Arc that a Dr Shaw and David could have gone through.

My other comments have been in general problems that may hamper sequels as far as to get a movie across that connects to Alien Franchise, as far as how it may effect General Fans.  Myself i was interested in the other things that could have been explored and steer away from Xenomorphs.

With the Hindsight of the First Prequel... i felt they should have given a few more clues and some Xenomorph Related Attack to please the Fanbase, and not so much myself as i was Fine with Prometheus.. the ambiguity was interesting because it allowed for a lot of thought provoking Theories without having any Spoon Fed Answer.

I just feel more Clues and a Xenomorph related Scene would have been better to appease some fans so that Ridley Scott could have closed the Door to the Xenomorph and moved on.. and explored something else without every worrying about unsatisfied fans wanting those Answers and more Xenomorphs and then having to U-Turn and give them this rather than Steer Away as Originally intended.

"Shaw and David were going somewhere else and would never come back"

Bingo!!  this is something i have said before and recently too, we have these Engineers Gardeners of Space... the Sacrificial Scene which Ridley Scott said does not have to be Earth... the Star Maps with other Galaxies...  Advanced Engineer Technology... And NONE of the Engineers returned to our part of the Galaxy in the Original Franchise.

So to clear up some In-continuity they could have had Paradise as a Place VERY VERY Far away, it could have been Many Hundreds, Thousands or Tens of Thousands of Light Years away.  Why it could have taken David and Dr Shaw, 10, 20, 50 years to arrive.. and be set in a Place Far from LV-223/426 and Earth and so FAR from the Alien Franchise.

Would cover WHY Engineers are not in the Original Franchise..  A Problem would be Human Characters connected with this Plot and where David and Dr Shaw ended up.... But again going back to the start of this Reply.. with the Set-Up Prometheus showed us... Is our Part of the Galaxy, that Small Area of Hundreds or Thousands of Light Years the only place where Humans are?  Apart from where we Colonize from Earth!  YES.... but this DOES-NOT rule out Humans or Near Enough Humans to Populate other Parts of the Galaxy.  And as i have said before if we look at BSG Series we have Caprica as another World that had Humans...  Ridley Scott said the Alien Franchise could be as Big as Star Trek/Star Wars and the PLOT certainly could have done that with our Galactic and Inter-Galactic Genetic Space Gardeners.

So Much Potential..... WHY they could have stumbled on a World that has Humans, where Engineers interact with them in Harmony.. with no Problems... where these Humans are behaving in the ways Mankind of Old did before we became FALLEN having a David and Dr Shaw Turn up could potentially Change that if they in effect become the Lucifer to that Paradise/Eden and Corrupt the Adam/Eve (Humanoids) they discover...

The Franchise Direction was HUGE.. Bigger than ALIEN that was just about a Bio-Weapon Created by the Space Jockey Race... (Now David) i could see where Ridley Scott was going... i also understand and can see the whole Creation/Rebellion Hubris Arc with David...  This Arc and AI in general is a Theme that actually takes more Space Up in my Prometheus 2 Idea.... that only Prometheus 3 introduced more Xenomorph and Engineers connection... Likewise my Now.. Alien Covenant Part 2 was more AI related and Philosophy with Part 3 being more Xenomorph and Engineer.

The PROBLEM... with David and Dr Shaw discovering Engineers, or other Humans or Humanoids in the Far Reaches of the Galaxy would be the Communication.   What are the odds of other Humans in the Galaxy speaking English?  But in context to the Engineers, having Humans from other Planets Far away speaking Ancient Proto Language the Engineer and David Spoke would be Logical.

But they could have had a Technology that Dr Shaw could have WORN to allow her to Communicate with them to take care of that Plot Hole.

FINALLY... The AI

Its actually interesting what you put, because a lot of this was the Set-Up i had in mind with my Prometheus 2 and indeed Operation Rook, which was Weylands Attempts to Transfer a Human Soul/Memories into a AI that can be transplanted into a Soulless Somewhat Immortal Body... and THUS reveal Weyland real intention for Perfecting the Synthetics as in DAVID and some of his Technology.. (Dream Visor, Synapse Restabliser) they was all part of Weylands Attempts to CHEAT DEATH... but after not being successful he Turned to Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings in the Desperate Hope that Meeting our Makers would Grant him Eternal Life.

Operation Rook was a Failure because the AI and Human Emotions and how a Human Emotions and Memories Transferred to a AI Program/Storage became Unstable and thus Weylands Transcending Soul would become a Mentally Unstable and at a Inner Conflict and Break Down......   So similar to the Mental State that Davids AI has become over years.

But in the Final Act of my Prometheus 2... Operation Rook is Activated and i was leaving this to Tease/Hint that Weylands Soul is uploaded to the Company Systems and becomes a kind of Omnipresent to a degree... and so fitting with AI having Playing a Lot Behind the Scenes while Humans are not in the know and merely Pawns.... But this is a bit Transcendence/Matrix i guess.

The Problem is Ridley Scotts Vision was to use Prometheus as a connecting Tissue between ALIEN and the Plans he had to Explore Something Different and Steer Away from ALIEN.  I am a little disappointed that this VISION is something that we maybe now will never fully explore.

"sorry to disagree with you, but such a twist would undermine the whole anti-corporate message of the series"

I can see what you mean... but i think the Prequel Intention was to add some MEAT to the Alien Franchise...  Lets take a look at the Franchise.

Only the FIRST movie showed us the Space Jockey and Egg Cargo, this was the Prime Reason for the Prequels to ANSWER the reasons and connection between the Xenomorph Cargo and Space Jockey.  So here is a break down of the Franchise....

*Xenomorphs, Eggs, Face Huggers...   Been there Done that got the T-Shirt.

*Space Jockey and his Race/Agenda and Connection with those Eggs...  Never Covered and in Part the Reason for the Prequels.

*Ripley and Co.... Done just as much as the Xenomorph, where she always seems to Survive/Resurrected.

*Marines/Military...  Done but always room to explore the Marines and Company Security in other movies. (Partly Covered in other Movies).

*The Weyland-Yutani Company... what else is this company responsible for, When/Why did they Merge and so a bit of History Expansion and Agenda... and the Prequels Began to cover this aspect to a degree.

*Synthetics always a supporting part of the Franchise, but always playing one of the Main Characters to the Plot...  and Alien Resurrection reveals a Future where Synthetics start to Create their own Synthetics and so Synthetics/AI does in Future become Rebellious and Sentient.  Something the Prequels Began to explore.

*Special Order 937 and the Companies continuous Agenda to obtain the Specimen, despite the risks to Humanity... Why and How Much did they know prior to 2122 and why is it that they pursue this Organism and using Fellow Humans as Pawns.... Mankind Can be wicked... but it does leave it open to be tied into AI.

So there was a lot that could be expanded on... rather than Xenomorphs, Marines and Heroines...   Which is where the Creation Plot and Sub-Creation and Hubris Philosophy on Creation becoming Sentient and Out of Control played a Part in the Prequels.. a Plot that Tackles and Takes on 3 Layers...   Humans and Our Creators.. and Our Creation. 

This leads us to the PROBLEM we have now...

The Xenomorph had been done over and over and as Ridley Scott said before some Movies Reduced the Xenomorph to not only being cooked, but like a Pig Spit Roasted with a Apple in its Mouth.   The Ripley Saga has been Told,  we could continue with Alien 5 but how do we explain a Ripley 8 Clone with Xenomorph DNA looking like a Woman at least in her 50's.  I had a idea to Tackle This....     So do we do a Ripley Prequel but how do we introduce the Xenomorph?

So the Prequel Route to Answer the Space Jockey and Eggs was the way to go Forwards... the Plot as far as the Engineers/Space Jockey Creation Mythos and Philosophical Themes of Creator/Creation, Father/Son Rebellion was something Ridley Scott Felt was interesting with the Prequels... something FRESH that could be applied to our Engineers... rather than them being a Unconnected Alien Race but in Hindsight this was maybe something that Alienated some of the Fanbase..   Ridley Scott also felt these Philosophical/Creation Themes can carry on through the Tale of Synthetics and from Davids POV... something again that some Fans Felt was not what a ALIEN Prequel should be about.

For some Fans a Alien Prequel should be about just that.. Alien Xenomorph, How/When and Why and then how it connected to the Space Jockey. Which Alien Engineers was attempting to do, but also add the Philosophy to it....  FOX/Ridley Scott came to agreement that actually the Xenomorph has been done over and over, the Space Jockey Arc and Agenda is more interesting and FRESH and with a Direct Prequel as Lindeloff said.. you know where its going to end and all you are doing is connecting the Dots.

So Prometheus was offered as a Go-Between... it was like saying we have this Movie that will attempt to Connect the Xenomorph in a Ambiguous way and then allow them to go off on a different Tangent away from ALIEN...

Prometheus 2 on wards  <=== PROMETHEUS ===> Alien on wards.

But the Problem was Prometheus did not give the Fanbase enough Answers or Anything to please them and leave them going...

"so thats who created the Xenomorph, i really like that idea i wonder what other Horrors they had been up to, i wonder what their Homeworld would be like etc"

Instead for some Fans it was "so how does this connect to Alien?, they cant tease us that Xenomorph Mural and only give us Stupid Space Cobras and a Alien Type Organism that just Chest Bursts and does nothing else...  Oh and WTF with that Zombie Dude and Angry Bald Space Smurf killing the Crew.... Man i hoped those Worm-Shark things was more like a Face Hugger, Why did they have Acid Blood for"

This could have been avoided by giving these Fans a Little More... so that they get some what of a FIX, and Answers but retain some Mystery and Maybe Engage them to the Sequel to see if they get any more clues and also look forwards to seeing more about these Engineers.

But its a case of FOX thinking that maybe they need to not Steer from ALIEN but actually directly link to it and give the fans Xenomorphs and Eggs etc... and eventually lead to the Space Jockey event... The way this Plot was changed so that they had to bring in Human Fodder, and bring the Engineer Homeworld Closer... and Wipe all that Prometheus 2 could have set up... under the Carpet to make Room for HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph was created.. while then throwing the Curve-ball Philosophical fitting David Created it... was something that Further Alienated the Fans...  the Xenomorph was reduced to barely much screen time and not handled as well as it SHOULD have been.

You could TELL Ridley Scott was not maybe pleased with the route taken.. his "they want $£%^£$^ Aliens i will give them $"£%£$^ Aliens" comment and the "i was head of the curve/game"

Does seem to show that the routes taken were not what RS intended.. its why some speculate he made David the Creator as a Up-Yours to Fans who was not interested in his Prometheus Plot.

A lot of Fans Felt that a ALIEN Prequel should be about the Xenomorph... when Prometheus was to be a loose prequel.. its why the name was changed to Prometheus instead of being a Alien: Origins, Alien:Genesis the ALIEN was taken away so that this movie sets itself as a Go-Between so we eventually would have..

Engineers 1,2,3 etc <=== PROMETHEUS ===> Alien 1,2,3,4 etc

They are in a Pickle Now that could have been Avoided if they Stuck to a different Sequel or if Prometheus had been a bit more ALIEN in the first place.

But for FOX i guess they felt without the Answers and Xenomorphs there is a potential a Prometheus 2 would not draw at the Box Office and would receive more criticism from Fans expecting a sequel would give more Xenomorph and Space Jockey Answers.

So the idea with the Franchise Plans... was that it does not have to be just about the Xenomorph! But alas they caved into what they felt more Fans would want.

I think both Prometheus and AC do suffer from fundamental flaws depending on personal perspectives. Personal perspectives being my main point here. So I would not expect anyone to fully agree with me, but rather find something that resonates with my views.

I have watched both Prometheus and AC more than once from a variety of perspectives, and I have observed different movies depending on the context of my perspectives.

I have watched Prometheus as a stand alone movie. Within this context I enjoyed it. I felt that is was a good change to introduce some fresh ideas into it including the Engineers. So I can imagine for anyone not familiar with the Alien franchise it would have been a new experience. But for someone like myself who is familiar with the franchise when viewing Prometheus as a prequel, rather than just a stand alone movie, the problem is that I have accumulated some baggage and expectations from the previous movies, and because of this personal bias, I found myself trying to join the dots to see how it fitted in with Alien.

I’ve already aired my gripes about Prometheus and AC to some extent, with my main complaint being how I felt those who already know the Alien franchise could have felt betrayed at the lack of the xenomorph, and how I feel marketing played its part in this. However contentious those views may appear, I still enjoyed both Prometheus and AC.

On a personal note, I did not mind the absence of the xenomorph in Prometheus, but I can see why others did mind because there were expectations there that had been created by the Alien franchise. The absence of such expectations created some harsh criticism.

By the end of Prometheus, a new storyline has been created and what we have is Shaw as a sole human survivor, flying off into unknown space with a dubious decapitated droid in search of an Alien race known as Engineers, with the Engineers appearing to be the enemy of mankind since it looks like they wanted to destroy humans. Also, by the end of the movie we have invested time in Shaw’s character.

Then along comes AC.

I have watched AC as a stand alone movie. Within this context I enjoyed it. I felt that is was a good change to introduce some fresh ideas into it including the Engineers. So I can imagine for anyone not familiar with the Alien franchise it would have been a new experience. But for someone like myself who is familiar with the franchise when viewing AC as a sequel/prequel, rather than just a stand alone movie, the problem is that I have accumulated some baggage and expectations from the previous movies.

Does this sound familiar?

To watch AC as a stand alone movie, with no back knowledge of Prometheus, ‘The Crossing’ becomes completely redundant. Also, from this viewpoint does it prove that the whole Alien formula is dead and not just the beast? I am more tempted to lean towards thinking that the Alien formula is what is over cooking the beast because wider audience expectation has turned the beast into a blasé sideshow with no real surprises.

Shaw's death was horrible and meaningless,

The decision to kill Shaw, I would compare to someone coming up with the bright idea of giving a cat a bath, to discover that it’s like trying to oil the individual teeth of a moving chainsaw. It’s a bad idea that’s painful to watch and will not end well.

Just like Prometheus, the audience went in to watch AC with expectations. But what happened? We get a movie where Shaw is dead. David is the enemy, and could it be argued that audience sympathy has moved towards the Engineers because of what David did to them? Maybe a tad of consistency would help.

Overall, I am left wondering if Shaw’s death proved that the beast is cooked ?

I feel that the route RS has taken has created a rod for his own back. What has repeatedly happened is that audience expectation, created from prior investment in characters, re-worked format and character death predictability is what has cooked the beast for RS. I don’t think the beast would be cooked for any other director, because an audience would not really know what to expect. But what I think is the most telling problem is that both Prometheus and AC ( imo anyhow) have been made to work as stand alone movies.

I feel AC was a sequel, i dont see it as a Stand Alone but thats just how i see it, as it seems its a Direct Prequel Route to Eventually Reach why the  Beast was Created, When and Why... How and by Whom.

Was the Beast Cooked?  to a degree YES.. as Ridley Scott said there is only so much Snarling and Chest Pulling you can do...  But he contradicts himself during the Promotion for Alien Covenant... by saying it has to be about HIM (Xenomorph) but you have to EVOLVE Him, and introduce something Fresh.  So we can see with Alien Covenant the Xenomorph appears Fresh to a degree.. it lacks the Bio-Mechanical Atheistic of the Original but i think this is where the Set-Up is because it can be EVOLVED to become Bio-Mechanical, as Ridley Scott had said.. the purpose of Alien Covenant was to find out Who and Why would someone make such a Horrific Creature, that Felt like a Weapon and it was Bio-Mechanical and Alien Covenant would BEGIN to answer those Questions.

The Beast is not Quite Cooked.. but it has to be handled in a Very Good way and with Care, you have to maybe bring something Fresh to it, but also you have to be careful how much you show it and how you show it.

Sadly Alien Covenant it was a Rush Job.... the constraints of the Running Time and Plot, meant the Xenomorph had to be Forced, and it was given little Justice to HOW it could/should have been Handled... In Hindsight we should have had ONE Xenomorph and more time with it on the Covenant Ship... so what we had was basically like a Rushed Version of Alien 3 and then a Rushed Version of Alien.

Again in Hindsight... Prometheus should have incorporated a little more from Alien Engineers.   The BIG Question we could be asking is at the Time of Working on Alien Engineers to its Evolution to Prometheus did RS/FOX Have/Know what the Xenomorph Origin was and HOW the Space Jockey event happened....  They did not need to SHOW these.. but surely if they HAD the Answers so they can focus the clues around them, then maybe we could have had some consistency.

It appeared the Original Idea would indeed had been the Engineers had encountered a Organism related to the Xenomorph, and then Experimented on this... which One Reason would have been to Create/Perfect the Ultimate Human Pest Control.   These Experiments Back Fired and Leads to the Space Jockey event....

Either was a Few Hundred Years Prior to the Outbreak (could mean those Experiments were conducted on the Space Jockey Cargo) or a Few Hundred Years Post the Outbreak (could mean those Experiments lead to the Xenomorph).

But ALAS not enough clues to this END was shown... and they have now U-Turned this.  But it can be FIXED!

We have to Wonder what was the Mural For? 

Surely those Engineers held the Organism in High Regard and Worship, for some Reason....... if these are Genetic Engineers, then maybe it presented them with something they saw as more PERFECT!

THUS... its open for some other Race related to the Engineers or the Engineers who know of the LV-223 Engineers Experiments and Attempts to Create Perfection with the Mural Organism... to come and Discover Davids Xenomorph.. see the Potential in his Creation from the Engineers Failed Creation... and also see David as a more Perfect Creation than Humans were.....  And then Seek to Perfect Davids Creation, maybe using David (or another Synthetic) as the Perfect Amalgamation.

Thus David Perfects Engineers Work... Created Proto-Morph and Engineers return and take Davids Creation and PERFECT it to the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph... but at a Great Hubris... or have David Redeem himself by Sacrificial Sabotage.   This would make David merely the MIDDLE-MAN in the Xenomorph Origin.

@ BigDave

Thanks for your reply.

@ ignorantGuy

Just for completeness there was a time in Ridleys mind, and its how I view the prequels, that the only one that is valid in terms of continuity is A L I E N.

The idea that what was behind the rerouting of the Nostromo was a knowing artificial intelligence represented by mother is a metaphor for corporate life. Once you introduce a hierarchy the higher up the food chain the more cold calculating and dispensable the front line can be. 

In many ways the enigmatic performance of "Bishop", real or robot, in A 3 is the perfect symbol of this and the bigger question what is life. 

If in Prometheus 2 Peter Weyland consciousness had made an appearance and the David/Elizabeth relationship included the dynamic of David having down loaded her memories to in the mind visor we then add on the reveal that David is connected to the main frame and is transmitting back to Mother something which is riffed in Advent, and consciousness and memory has its own journey. This a point that is covered and implied in Weylands holographic speech  to the Prometheus crew.

All of this is kickstarted by Weylands quest for immortality and is therefore thematically consistent, memory and experience is its own thread which can be used and denied by A I for much longer time periods.

One of the potential transcendent points in a Prometheus story is for David to switch his connections off and become an independent and unique individual rather than the multiple presentations (Joi like) where Charlie and Peter Weyland can be "created for Shaw". Again this use of holographic imagery could be built on the technology we saw used in Prometheus so its not a plot device but thematic. Indeed the entire history of the Engineers could be played out by David triggering their holographic library when they reach Paradise and remember this is a Paradise which would propel the notion that life is a mechanical construct and that the soul is a fabrication. In Prometheus 3 this would turn out be part of the Engineers hubris. As late as September 2015 Ridley was describing the hierarchy as Babouska Doll like, the Engineers created us who created them, that would be for Prometheus 3 and a very different David and Shaw.  

So no Walmart run by robots would not be the thing. The very layered story would be dealing with the much bigger issue of what is existence and reminding the audience that something we view as a robot could become more human than some humans and that some organisations look more like a soulless lifeless entity run by robots where everything is dispensable than a real loving organisation with values and ethos and the space seeders themselves made the same mistake, which is what lead to Paradise Lost. 

What this story is really dealing with is what is humanity. 

Is it flesh and blood and the ability to procreate which the Alien lifecycle is a horrible counterfeit of, created out of the hubris that the Engineers believed life was an Engineered construct whether biological or mechanical in outcome. 

Is it intelligence which is driven by higher motives of collectiveness and love and sacrifice for others represented in the opening scene of Prometheus.

Is it also a unique personality affected by experience which leads to evolution and an eternal soul which lives beyond the body and (is a return to the creative act) and what Prometheus should have been pondering, which is more tantalising, can we create that body so that we can live on. David's ultimate question should have been does he live on with Shaw in the physical world and change her or should he die and live on beyond the physical world. Weyland showed him in Prometheus that there is nothing in the desert, in Prometheus 2 he would recognise the Engineers have only a part of the truth and Prometheus 3 would provide the answers.   

Thats me done but the simple point is David and Shaw could have carried this story and because its science fiction Weyland, Mother, Charlie, the Juggernauts and the Tear drop ship could all have been woven into it BUT not the "dragons and all that shit".

@Michelle Johnston I could only wish that only for a second that what you have written would have been in someone from the production team's of AC mind. But for me it seems that everyone was very happy to leave the "stupid things" and focus on creating monsters.

To the OP and RS- if that is the case, put out one more movie and be done- just make a decent movie with a good story and memorable characters. It could even be about just humans (WY) since we have seen the beasts and androids. I will make my own conclusions and enjoy this forum members' picking it apart like starving vultures. 

im sure iv already said my piece on this but ill have another bash for shits n giggles. i get what RS is saying about the issues with sci-fi but its not just sci-fi that has problems evolving and keeping a genre fresh. but where this prequel series is concerned specifically, none of these issues are the root problem. the problem was RS's comments way way back at the beginning. he stated he was making an alien prequel series. pretty straight forward so now all the alien fans r juicing themselves. the father of the franchise is back woohoo. then he stated he was making a stand alone series which would tie into alien at the end. TOO LATE..... all we heard was 'alien prequel'. we got Prometheus and it got roasted because..... not enough aliens. so from the backlash, im guessing the studio step in and convince (or force) RS to go a more safe route. now we get, and only my opinion, a movie that has nothing really to do with alien. its not an alien film. its a film about a mental synthetic craving galactic domination and there are some monsters in it. all because we expected an alien prequel trilogy and when u say 'im doing an alien prequel trilogy' all people hear is 'there will be aliens'. Prometheus imo fell victim to his comments as it was viewed with people looking for immediate tie ins to alien. 'no answers' 'not enough aliens' without the foresight to see that its the first movie, u don't get answers in the first one and alien hasn't happened yet duh. we also know the ending which doesn't help. AC was a sequel yes, but we got probably 40% of what RS wanted to do with it. hey shit happens. now the question is can he save it? if anyone can RS can

@Michelle Johnston

I agree with your last post, and i have on a number of occasions discussed the same or similar.   There was some Good Philosophical themes that could have been explored and the whole PLOT was very open to how it could have gone.  I could think of many ways a sequel could have Dealt with Dr Shaw and David... many ways and each different way could offer something interesting... but would distance itself a little from ALIEN.

If i just Tackle Dr Shaw....

*She does not really have a Family Anymore.. her Fiancee is Dead, they had both worked on a lot of archeological digs discovering clues that indicate Mankind had been Visited by Giant Alien Beings from out of Space who had played a Great Part in our Evolution.  While these Clues hint the Tales of Gods in various Ancient Mankind could INDEED have a Basis... while these Findings May Somewhat Contradict her Biblical Faith they could Certainly Prove that Darwinism is NOT correct and gives Credence that indeed Beings had interacted with Mankind who we preserved as Gods.  And so if their FINDINGS point to these beings who we interpreted as Gods, and IF these beings are responsible for Creating us, then it brings her a Step Closer to MEETING our MAKERS which brings her closer to Legitimizing her Faith than how far from the Truth her Faith would be if Darwinism was proven Correct and thus there is NOTHING!

*So the Quest to Discover our Origins and the Horrors she discovered would have plagued her mind... she is still clutching at Straws that there has to be SOMETHING greater than the Engineers, Who Created them because so far what she has discovered is Further from any Truth or Expectations she had... Especially the Anticipation after Discovering that INDEED LV-223 had Beings Related to Humans.  She NOW wants ANSWERS to why these beings Created us and why they then wanted to Destroy us.  Hoping that at some point their was a Special Place/Reason for our Creation and maybe hoping that their is a Higher Power above the Engineers thus maybe giving her HOPE that her FAITH is not so far from the Truth.

*With NOTHING to loose she is off to find these GODS and get her Answers even if attempting to do so will YIELD no Results but just Death... there is NOTHING left for her NOW.   And Discovering that there is NO answers or answers that are beyond what she hoped for, even if she unveils we are not SPECIAL and that the GODS are Wicked, or were and maybe No More.. or they remain but are FAR from what Dr Shaw had wished and the Truth about these beings is even Worse/Horrific than what she discovered in PROMETHEUS.

This could Change Dr Shaw.. it could Break Her... how would she Handle the TRUTH and then what is their to LIVE for? Revenge? Nothing?

*There remains ONE other thing that Dr Shaw could never HAVE something that must deeply effect her... this was to Bare Children, She could not Create Life and this is something that Effected her Deeply... IF she could have Created Life... then she would have SOMETHING to live for, something to allow her to Return Home instead of her Journey for Answers.

HERE.... is one of the Biggest Things that could have been Explored... Dr Shaw could not Create... but the Black Goo Proved otherwise.. only it was a Creation that was a Abomination.   I felt this was something to be Explored.... Because IF Dr Shaw found out the Truth and then she had NOTHING... if David or a Engineer had a way they could offer Dr Shaw the Chance to CREATE Life... and by that Repair/Fix her Defective Reproductive Organs then this would have given Dr Shaw something to HOLD on to...  THIS is a Plot that would have been very interesting to Explore... its what ideas i had for the Future with Prometheus Sequels.....  

But this is NOT Alien.... it could be if David with Engineer Technology or a Surviving Engineer OFFERED Dr Shaw this GIFT to Create Life, to then be able to Give Birth.... only  for then David/Engineer to then USE her Offspring for their own TWISTED Agenda, revealing from this maybe the TRUE Sinister Agenda for the Creation of Mankind.

THIS kind of Plot could allow and explain the reasons for Creation, and also HOW the Xenomorph was Created Prior.  It appears Alien Covenant to some degree may have covered this to a small degree.

This Plot would also not be the only ONE, as we discover more about the Engineers, we discover the Pattern of Creation, Sub-Creation through a Arc of David wishing to be his own GOD/Creator and using Dr Shaw and Engineers to this END... again something i felt a sequel would cover... and what i would have covered too... and indeed something that to a degree Alien Covenant had also followed..

@ali81

Certainly at first when rumors and then information on the Production of a Prequel began, it was a Prequel that was marketed as being a Prequel that would show us Xenomorphs and how they was Created and Why, and also give more clues to the Space Jockey... A Few Drafts that lead to Alien Engineers was born..

Alien Engineers does offer Xenomorphs, Eggs and the like but it also Contradicts ALIEN so it has some Major Flaws.....  But its a bit Ambiguous, to a degree that the Signal at the END does-not match that in ALIEN and then in future Alien movies how do they miss the PYRAMIDS and Wreckage of the MAGELLAN... if this was a Literal Prequel it too could be interpreted as the Space Jockey/Derelict not being there for THOUSANDS of years too.

But this could be PASSED off as the event happens on a Different Part of LV-426 rather than the Site of the Ancient Derelict.  As a way to overcome such In-continuity Flaws....   HOWEVER there is one thing people overlook with Alien Engineers, and the other draft Prior... the events of the MAGELLAN arriving at LV-426 are 50 years after the event of ALIEN unless this is a Misprint/Error by Jon Spaights in TWO Drafts.

"HOLLOWAY
Tell me that’s a natural formation.
(he grins)
Undeniable proof of alien
civilization. You were here on this
day, thirty-one December, year of
our Lord 2172. History will
remember your names."

So the ORIGINAL Prequel Idea maybe was actually not a Straight Prequel after all... but a event set after the Events of ALIEN, a Event that would set up the Company wishing to investigate... but it contradicts Hadleys Hope which would have been set up on LV-426 some 15 years prior to Alien Engineers...  and so again the 2172 date could be a Error?

But indeed back to your comment ali81 it was reported Ridley Scott was working on a ALIEN Prequel... and Production had got underway, just as Lindeloff was brought in to Re-Write Spaights work to get us to PROMETHEUS which then became a LOOSE Prequel with less about the ALIEN and no Xenomorphs... apart from the Trilobite/Deacon Life Cycle, the Hammerpedes and Fifield... which never gave Fans really any Xenomorph like Monster or Attacks...

I think it WAS-NOT Marketed enough as a None-Literal Prequel and ALIEN movie... not to the casual Fan, or General Public.. but only those who followed every interview and comments that Ridley Scott was making.

I think the Problem is that any ALIEN movie will always be associated with the Xenomorph and Eggs and even by having PROMETHEUS not carry the ALIEN name...  due to it exploring the Space Jockey Race, involving the Weyland Company and by Virtue a ALIEN Franchise Movie... for some fans it was expected to have ANSWERS and more CONNECTIONS.

The Franchise encompassed more than Ripley and Eggs and Xenomorph, we had the Space Jockey its Race/History and Agenda and what had they been involved in apart from Xenomorphs... we had the Weyland Company its History/Merger and Agenda and what had they been involved in apart from trying to obtain Xenomorphs

These are things that RS tried to expand upon, rather than a movie that heavily invests into showing Xenomorphs, and maybe keeping the Mystery a bit Ambiguous...  This PROVED to be a Error a bit in Hindsight.