Are the Eggs on LV-426 Still There?

I think the MAIN thing is what they Intend to show us, as a lot can be put down to OVERSIGHT and No Matter how much a Conflict that may seem, we maybe are NOT supposed to look at it in Detail.

Prior to the Prequels it was Pretty Much up for Debate..

*Part of the Ship

*Underground Storage Facility

Doubt any or many had a idea about a Detachable Cargo Compartment so lets RULE that out (in Light of the Length of the Cargo Storage being what 400-600M) But then this could be said about it NOT being a Part of the Ship in Light of this...  Smoking Gun!

So the MAIN thing really is what they INTEND and any Inconstancy we have to ACCEPT as Oversight... or we can use it to put our MIND and Opinion at Peace.

Back Prior to the PREQUELS we had one of TWO Options.

1) The Derelict was Carrying its Cargo and the Pilot was Infected and he had SET down a Course to Quarantine the Cargo on a near by  Baron Moon (we can only Speculate where the SHIP had come from and where it was Going).

2) The Derelict was Docked with a Underground Storage Facility and the Pilot was Infected while he was either Transporting something to the Storage Facility, or attempting to take something from the Storage Facility.

The Second Option is NOT what Ridley Scott had intended and explained for Many Years now... but it does-not have to Contend with the Dilemma that the Egg Chamber is TOO LARGE to be Part of the Ship.

By going for Option 2 what we have is that LV-426 has a Very Large Underground Facility, is this the ONLY ONE?

The PREQUELS had kind of Muddy the Waters a bit, Ridley Scotts explanation (off screen) seemed to indicate the Derelict had LEFT the LV-223 Outpost but only got as FAR as LV-426 before the Pilot was Chest Busted.

If the Derelict was intended to be similar to the Juggernauts then if they have a similar LAY-OUT then there is NO-WAY the Juggernaught would have a Cargo Hold like shown in ALIEN underneath it.

If we accept Option 2 at this Time (2012) then you could Speculate that the Juggernauts would USED to either..

a) Take the LV-223 Experiments to Store on LV-426

b) Take the Eggs from LV-426 to LV-223 to be Experimented on.

The BIG PROBLEM... if we Accepted Option 2 is ALIEN COVENANT...

Within 17.5 Years we have to have David do what ever Shenanigans he is going to do, but then to what Discover on LV-426 a Empty Storage Facility to then take his EGGS in Many Many Thousands?  And Transport them from A-B (where B is the Underground Facility) the Underground Facility would have to already be there RIGHT?

Because to have David also Construct Such a Facility within that Period would sound VERY VERY VERY Unlikely.

In Context to the OT...

If we Accept Option 2 then it is POSSIBLE that some Eggs would surely be Salvageable from the Underground Facility.

However.... Inconsistency aside... i think the PLAN would have been and still LIKELY would be that the Derelict was Carrying the Cargo of Eggs and was either Leaving LV-223 or Heading Towards LV-223 before the Pilot began to go through the Process of knowing he was about to Give Birth to a ALIEN!

The CULPRIT really being the Length that the Cargo Hold appears to be going around in the Kane scene that used the Matt Painting Back Ground.

BigDave

Just to be absolutely clear the Urn Room and the Bridge in Prometheus are the same set. 

That stage is a maximum of 15 metres high and if you watch the Furious Gods segment where Jon Sphaits visits and several other stills of the set you can see the practical set takes us right to the top of the Concave Walls and the head is above that with a gap of about 2 meters to the roof of the building. This makes the actual Headroom and the Actual Bridge with a CGI 'cap' over the top about 18 metres.

hox

In A L I E N the cargo bay/cave is directly underneath the bridge. 

In Covenant, the cargo bay is directly under the bridge. 

So for me, Prometheus with the Cargo Bay in the next segment to the left as you look at the Horseshoe feels contrived for theatrical reasons wonderful as it is.

To be honest I am not wired with the need to find more to it than each time Ridley makes a film with a Juggernaut he changes the design to suit the needs of his story. He has done exactly the same with the Engineers except in that case its budgetary restraints that lead to the look of the Engineers in Covenant. What I do know is for the general audience it's not helpful.   

BigDave

My view of ambiguity is quite different from yours for two reasons.

1) To me, they are distractions from themes, story and character. Arthur Max puts it perfectly for me you can have all the clever designs you like but what you need is story and character. 

2) Ridley storyboards and makes the narrative fit the storyboards. For a single movement story that is fine but one of Ridley's failings with this sequence of films is he takes his audience out of the story by having so much inconsistency and either causes watcher fatigue or endless debates. If you complete a multi-movement story it has to be symphonic with themes and ideas recurring to gain your commitment and gives the story more emotional weight.

When I wrote my rule book for my work I knew the design of the Juggernaut before I started. Some might argue it is restricting to be tied down I found it liberating and it can lead to more invention. Just one example

Bridge on the upper level with the Cargo Bay directly below it.

As the party approaches the pilot chamber David takes them directly to the upper level avoiding the cargo bay of Urns making the parties reaction more plausible they do not react because they do not see them. Equally, Elizabeth in warrior mode pulls back and takes the alternative entrance and discovers the Urns and relays the feed to Janek one on one. She holds back listens to David whilst he pontificates and then emerges confronts him and that knowledge gained by subterfuge underwrites naturally her intervention with the woken dark angel where she is clearly operating alone and so much so that Weyland threatens to have her shot if she utters another word.

The Juggernauts could have all been different because they are organically grown rather than designed and that may even have story potential but in this instance all the visual clues and the story point to many craft that are externally identical and painstakingly so. Equally, you could tell a story where they are Bio-Mechanically fabricated and corralled what matters is not which idea you pursue but what storytelling value it has not what discussion value it has for a confused audience.

To conclude and its the point I made above the very things people discuss endlessly here are the very things that put a cap on the broader audience wanting more.      

I said before i had a IDEA on how the Cargo Hold could Snake around the Ship, but this IDEA is a bit Moot Considering these.

*My Scale Height would mean the Whole Derelict would have to be 40ft Taller.

*To the Same Scale the Cargo Hold Sections and Number of them would Require the Derelict to be 2-3X Wider.

However here is my Explanation that i think Works apart from SIZE!

"Just to be absolutely clear the Urn Room and the Bridge in Prometheus are the same set"

The Estimates and Calculations i was presenting are regarding the ALIEN Set and not Prometheus, sorry i should have made that more Clear ;)

But regardless, it does show in both cases that Ridley Scott likes to try and Recycle Sets to Save on Money and Time and that there is NO point in Building Extra Height or Parts of the Set that can be added by CGI..  The Big Head Statues in Alien Covenants room the Hall of Heads were likewise only a % as the Rest would be added by CGI.. which i think is the Point you was raising which is VERY Valid. (in Relation to Sets).

"Bridge on the upper level with the Cargo Bay directly below it."

Totally Agree it is what makes Sense, and the Concepts seemed to Indicate the Main Entrance would be Accessed at a Level that was about Half-Way of the Height of the Ship.  I think they made a Error with the Hologram Map Scene, they should have had the Corridors at a Higher Level.

And so Michelle you are Correct Ultimately as far as in the END such Inconsistency will NOT matter as all that matters is what the Director Chooses would be ideal to FIT the Purpose for the Story/Plot they are trying to Tell and so Changes to the Aesthetics and Dimensions can be Changed to Suit....   And so IF and WHEN we get any Conclusion the Fans have to Accept what is shown and any Contradictions or Discrepancies would be just Oversight.

PS... i like your changes regarding the Crew of the Prometheus walk above the Cargo Holds and Dr Shaw discovers them Separately, i think that would have WORKED so much better ;)

"He has done exactly the same with the Engineers except in that case its budgetary restraints that lead to the look of the Engineers in Covenant."

I felt the same and was Puzzled as Budget Wise it would NOT have Cost a lot to have Black Eye Contacts and a bit more Paint/Make Up...  But it was the Comments by Ridley Scott that these Engineers (Planet 4) are the Originals and then when looking at some of the Themes and how RS had said the Replicants are AI... then to me i think maybe the IDEA is that those LV-223 Engineers are like the Engineers versions of Replicants and so the LV-223 Engineer had more in Common with David. Thats how i Interpret it... maybe we will NEVER find out though.

Well, the problem of having the pilot room in middle hight and the cargo hold under it is that the three openings would lead into it and the pilot chair would come down through the roof of it when not used. This is only possible if the area which Kane descends into is MUCH smaller or we are dealing with different kinds of juggernauts.

Anyway, I think that the view that the Derelict is connected to the outbreak on LV-223 is preferable (no David involved) but that an underground area filled with eggs (which might have been there even before the Engineers got there) tickles imagination . . .

chli

Spot on about the chair and the area where Kane descends into.

There are two points to this discussion:-

1) How do we interpret what we see which was the point of your posting?

2) Is it a relevant concern to each one of us?

My view on this subject that Ridley filmed a huge subterranean area which as the years went by became the Cargo of the derelict. That the matter is not forensically logical does not give me any concern nor I need to come up with plausible tenuous logic.

Quite separately from my view of the movies for my own vision I decided the consul, chair, propulsion and the origins of the craft can be wound into all the main character and story themes and all the design considerations feed into the story. 

Gentlemen

Finally on the entrances.

On the original model, the vulva like entrance is at floor level and three circular elements almost at mid heights.

In Prometheus, the vulva entrances are considerably higher and D and E rappel down from the Vulva entrances at bridge level which would contradict the hologram images the Prometheus received with the heat signatures. (BD's point)

I kept with the original external design the Vulva entrances take you into the Cargo Bay you then in the standard variant climb a ships ladder (homage to Kane) on to the Bridge and the three circular elements are an emergency escape entrance and escape pods from the bridge. I found climbing ships ladders to the various levels communicated scale which works well in A. but is not there in P.    

@BigDave, in the picture at the top of this thread, there is a tunnel in the far distance that snakes off to the left. It appears to have quite a lot of light coming from it. Any thoughts as to how that can be?

The whole (very large) thing is probably most easily explained by it being an underground cave complex that the ship is sitting on. But... here's one for your abacus!... if the inside of Dr. Who's Tardis can be a lot bigger than the outside, maybe the ship can be, too.

@hox

This is the Quickest thing to get out of the way, Certainly they could explain those who had Built/Created the Derelict have some kind of Technology that is like what the TARDIS used, i have suggested this a few times over the Years, such a Revelation would be a Convenience to the Plot/Discrepencies, its a case of would FANS start to say its NOT Original and is just going to RIP off Dr Who and be a Lazy Explanation... but its a Easy Explanation that would END any debates about the Size of the Hold and HOW it can not be part of the Ship...   and so i cant see WHY NOT as far as the Derelict having similar Technology.

@chli

I dont think its Impossible for the Pilot Chair to Retract into a PIT of Sorts....  Kane Descended right on the Edge of the Platform and he could have Descended at a Angle, or a way around could be like in this IMAGE.

@Michelle

Certainly the Vulva Openings in Prometheus seem to be about 28ft Total, in Alien they appear to be 20-22ft. The Entrances (bottom of Vulva's) seem to Start about 12ft off the Base of the Derelict (in Alien Rocks Obscure this) with Prometheus Juggernaut they appear to be about 20ft off the Ground.

These Entrances are still quite a bit Lower than the Mid-Section of the Ships, but with Prometheus we are shown the MAIN Entrance to the Juggernaut appears to be at what we would think is the REAR but turns out to be the Front.

What seems Strange is the Pilot Room seems Directly behind where that Entrance would be and so WHY does it seem the Prometheus Crew Enter at a Different Area?

I think as with ALIEN and the Entering the Ship Scene we are maybe NOT shown every Step they take on Film, but with Prometheus it would seem there is NOT much of a Walk from the Cargo Hold to the Bulkheads/Front of the Juggernaught.

And so looking at the Image it does-not make much Sense.. it must be the Entrance does-not Directly take you to the Pilot or Cargo Rooms, but it would Snake Around a bit...

So i have tried to think where the Prometheus Crew would have Entered and Walked to the Pilot Room, i then also Pin Pointed where the Covenant Crew would have Entered, which INDEED was a Bottom Layer as they Ascended up to get to the Pilot Chamber, but it seemed they also Descended at a Point too.

I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar.

However with the Juggernauts they appear to have Different Internal Layouts... this is a Error, but it is LIKELY done for the reasons you mentioned Michelle...

While we can Wonder otherwise WHY it seems they never paid attention to MATCH the Ships (Prometheus/Alien Covenant) there is NO reason why Internally the Ships can Differ, as a Example some of the Larger Aircraft that we have can be Same Model but Internally they are laid out Differently due to performing different Tasks.

Also who is to say the Engineers Technology means the Ships Internal Structure can Morph to Desired requirements for a Given Task.

In Closing.....

I have to agree with what you had USED in your work on Prometheus as far as the Ship should have had Cargo Holds to a Lower Level than the Pilot Chamber.

I was thinking the other day about some of the Images i made, and how its HARD to Judge due to Camera Angle of the Cargo Hold, so i made this Image to Estimate how many Section of the Egg Storage Chambers would FIT along the Width of the Derelict.

This ONLY shows that to Scale it would NOT Fit, but that does-not mean that it CAN or WILL only be explained as a Underground Storage Facility/Silo.

It could be just a matter of Accepting its OVERSIGHT or maybe we could Accept the Technology of the Cargo Hold is similar to that of the TARDIS from Dr Who?

Until we have a Conclusion to the Prequels that would Directly show us the Ship and Cargo Hold and WHERE/WHAT it is...  or UNTIL we have another Movie that Re-Visits the Derelict then its still OPEN to Debate unless we ACCEPT the Explanation that Ridley Scott has given and then Accept its a Oversight.

EDIT:

I will add that taking into account the Arms and Curve of the Ship then IF the Ship was 40ft Higher, then the Ship would FIT about 10 of those Egg Sections. But for this to WORK then it would mean the SHOT from ALIEN would have to ONLY show 3-4 Sections in that SHOT... i assume we can see AT LEAST about 10 Sections.

So a 40ft Taller Derelict that is 2-3X Wider would FIT the Cargo Hold...  

Thank you for the analysis, BigDave. I suppose we can't come any further than this. What is good is that another alien movie could go either way.

It would be acceptable that the movie had as a premise that it is, in fact, an underground facility which a group enters after digging up the Derelict from the devastation from the nuclear explosion.

It would, of course, also be possible to accept that the eggs are in a cargo hold in the Derelict.

But this topic was actually about whether the eggs are still there . . . :)

"I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar."

@BD

If I may I would like to unpack this statement. 

If you were making a presentation to a group of prop movie design workers your statement is indeed correct. The way the props were made in 1978 and then 2011 was not signed off on the basis of forensic similarity.

However, in terms of the story being told the derelict/juggernaut relationship is exactly the same as the jockey/engineer relationship. We as an audience should take them as the same.      

Here is why.

In the furious gods documentary, it is made very clear when they are replicating and when they are trying to be different. No one ever mentions making the Juggernaut smaller for the simple reason there is no reason to. It's considered to be the same craft.

To give a contra example they very deliberately evolved the design of the craft above the waterfall from originally being a Juggernaut to something different, it's in the Pre Viz, but when they decided that the Waterfall incident and its participants were separated by millions of years from the Moon guys and had a different agenda they went for something radically different.       

There is one final piece of evidence originally the craft that fell out of the sky was the derelict and there is no evidence they changed the design when the story was altered.

So your right it's not an identical prop but in story terms its the same craft with some internal modifications. Like the Derelict its a bomber just with a different Cargo.  

chli

As to your question are the Eggs still there the answer is its 2019 so Yes. (haha)

As to whether they will be there deep in the future. I think in the profoundly dysfunctional world of A L I E N I do not think mankind will ever learn its lesson. But in the even-handed world of P R O M E T H E U S, I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict.     

@chli,

The answers to the op really boil down to three answers...

#1 - Yes - If the derelict somehow avoided destruction from the atmosphere processor explosion, or if the eggs are indeed within a separate structure.

#2 - No - If the derelict was destroyed and the eggs were within the derelicts cargo hold.

#3 - If another movie chooses to return to LV-426 then it all depends upon what the studio/writer decides.

But IMO I still believe that if they do return to LV-426 the eggs should be contaminated forcing 'the powers that be' Weyland-Yutani?) to look elsewhere for more sources of the Xenomorph.

@Chli

I apologize for  taking it OFF TOPIC, i was going to make a New Topic or look at another that discussed the LIKELIHOOD or NOT that the Cargo Hold would FIT inside the Derelict, but i noticed this Topic was more Active and Debated such things, as in Relation to the OT.

So with what i had done is to INDEED conclude that Forensically we should be looking at a UNDERGROUND Storage Facility and as such if this is the CASE then in Context to the OT... I think the Potential for their being something Salvageable after the Destruction of Hadleys Hope is Greatly Increased if we have a Underground Facility, compared to the Less Likely chance of Salvaging anything if the Cargo Hold was on-board the Derelict.

@Michelle

Certainly in Terms of the Story, i think its a case of Accepting what they are showing us and Inconstancy would have to be merely a Oversight..  The Derelict and Juggernaut are intended to be Similar they form a Purpose for Carrying Loads of Various Bio-Logical Warfare and so Internally they can be Configured different from Ship to Ship, also likely the Derelict could have been a Older or Newer Model but looking back prior to Alien Covenant you would be drawn to Conclude the Derelict was a Older Model that has been Stranded on LV-426 for a Long Long Time.  And so with the Image Below it could be a case of Same Purpose, just Newer Model and so there would be some Atheistic Differences, but as FAR as the Purpose and Internals then they are supposed to Perform a Similar/Same Task.  And rightfully so with what you mention, we should maybe NOT be drawn too much in Specifics and Differences as they are for the Story Purpose intended to be Very Similar, because they would NOT effect the Overall Plot/Story.

@Michelle

In Follow up to your Last Reply.. 

"I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict"

I think this is VERY Plausible and a Avenue for a Book or Movie, as i mentioned a Few Times before that in ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event, and so it could be a Attempt was made to DESTROY the Derelict that did-not do the JOB.

@Gavin

Indeed a Avenue could be to Explore a Salvage of the Cargo and WHAT would become of Contaminated Cargo from Radiation...   Some of the Newer Concept Works for Blomkamps Alien 5 do show signs of Mutations and so this could be the Result of a Contaminated Cargo after the Hadleys Hope Destruction, or Experimentation.

And so that leaves it OPEN to explore a Movie that goes back to the Derelict Post 2179 but prior to 2379 and so in Context to the OT its a case of is there anything to Salvage and what Condition are any Eggs that Remain.

"In ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event"

I must admit, when I saw the Aliens Special Edition, where we got to see the derelict in poor condition, I thought to myself that the ship had been there for an absolute age, yet in the space of a few short years since Alien it was oddly falling to pieces.

On the other hand, we're dealing with completely alien technology here. If the ship was biomechanically 'grown' or replicated, whatever you want to call it, maybe it can in a sense also 'die' under certain circumstances.

Michelle

Well, if David’s behind the eggs, then they are not there in 2019. :)

hox

It’s an interesting idea that a juggernaut perhaps can die (like a vegetable without nourishment).

BigDave

It’s possible that someone has tried to destroy the Derelict (because of its dangerous cargo). The crew of the Anesidora were there about 15 years after the crew of the Nostromo. Perhaps others as well?

Russ and Anne Jordan enter the Derelict through a gash in the Derelict's arm. Was it there when the group from the Nostromo were there? They enter through one of the three holes in the centre.

These "doors" were open, by the way, as if the crew had been in a hurry to get out. As the team from the Nostromo looks at the Space Jockey, Lambert says: "What happened to the rest of the crew?" Perhaps there were more Engineers on the ship and they fled from a xenomorph attack and succumbed somewhere on LV-426?

chli

I thought you would enjoy the joke as you are avowdly in the camp that if David is the Jockey with his cargo of Eggs from the Covenant sleepers it would be tosh. 

BigDave

You use the word oversight a lot when you are dealing with inconsistencies. Implying the designers and filmmakers have overlooked the differences. I don't think they have it's just they think the connections they make are strong enough and viewer suspension deals will the rest and whatever they change is for story values.

Less you think I am suggesting you are in a minority of one I have noted all deep fan sites of film franchises are preoccupied with the same issues and people become very rude about those responsible for these oversights but thats mankind for you fragmented, angry and adversarial.  

I don't believe for one minute that the prop/set designers took their creations far beyond what is seen on camera. For example, I imagine that Ridley quickly sketched out an oddly profiled tunnel where the explorers in Alien check out the derelict. It looks good and weird in and of itself. The set constructors didn't need to worry themselves about where in the ship that tunnel was. Similarly, when it came to showing the egg chamber, a glorious expansive cave is all we need to see on screen. It might be an underground,  cavern or deep in the belly of the ship. It doesn't really matter, so long as it looks good (and plausible).

Inconsistencies in what is shown are certainly oversights, but perfectly understandable ones. I don't suppose that any of the designers imagined that 40 years later, we'd be nit-picking about it on something called 'the internet'.

@hox

Your getting confused. It's well known that when A L I E N was being made they were constantly changing some of the story logic. There was a point when there were far fewer Eggs on the ship then there was a phase when there was a huge underground silo which the Eggs were contained in. Then post-film the traditions evolved.

However, what Big Dave is trying to argue as he has done so many times is that when they painstakingly designed the props for Prometheus they overlooked the size of the Jockey and the Derelict in the original film. They did not Jon Sphaits said they deliberately went for an 8-foot creature rather than a giant elephantine one for storytelling reasons. They designed the Juggernaut as being the derelict taking into account the Eggs were in the cargo bay. 

I am not denying that the traditions of A L I E N have evolved what I am saying is the decisions made on Prometheus were deliberate. I couldn't care less about the inconsistencies between the two films but I will stand up when peoples identify them as oversights. They are thought out judgements and on record as such.

I went to see ALIEN in 1979 all my friends thought Kane went down a hole in the ship into a Cave. It's only since Ridley began saying it was the cargo on the ship that everyone has started having a view on it. But if you asked Ridley over a latte has the tradition evolved I am sure he would admit it.            

If people say as they do all over the internet I am out of here that isn't the Jockey I am completely cool with that. I am the same I think Covenant is not only a routine film but the narrative logic is bollock's and dismisses Prometheus (which those involved in the film have confirmed) but I do not go on about oversights between mutagens and pathogens and positions of Cargo Bays because I know they were all deliberate choices I just don't believe in the story.

So I am not shutting down or disrespecting other peoples entitlement to like or not like something I am simply standing up for recent films and their makers and restoring the truth of how decisions came to be made.

Let's like or not like a film or elements of it but all this holier than thou armchair filmmaker stuff who knows better is frankly more often than not wrong in its assumptions as to how decisions got made.           

@Michelle

I do tend to USE the word Oversight a bit, but i use it in the similar Context to what Hox had put in his reply, in that from the Perspective of the Fans as far as we will just have to ACCEPT certain Inconsistencies and Errors as something we have to Overlook.

ULTIMATELY as far as those who are Giving us the Narrative and Story (Producers, Writers and Director) such Inconsistencies are things they would DEEM as not really be Necessary as far as to IMPACT the Plot/Store they wish to Convey and Conclude.

While there are the ODD Difference in Scale and Aesthetic, we have to take into account what they are inferring towards.  So for example while IF we look at the Egg Hold as being something that WONT Fit inside the Ship if we was to Forensically Analyze it, or take what say Kane said as far as its a CAVE... then what it Ultimately comes down to is WHAT those who are giving us this Story/Plot have Intended and IF this is that its part of the SHIP then i guess we have to ACCEPT that and any Inconsistencies are what we would eventually have to Overlook and this is what i refer to when i bring up Oversight, as in on OUR PART...

I do however feel that UNTIL we go to the Derelict again or get a Conclusion that shows us the Ship and HOW/WHEN/WHY it ended up on LV-426 and Until such would show us the Cargo Hold is Part of the Ship then Fans will Speculate on Theories that it MAY-NOT or CAN-NOT be a Part of the Ship.... Until we get a Conclusion then we have to Accept what the Writers/Directors Intend...  But also to BARE in Mind what they Intend can Change.... such as what happened with the Ancient Derelict and its Cargo that if we go by what they NOW seem to intend is something that as of the Year 2105 is NOT on LV-426.....  despite this being the Case Prior to Alien Covenant.

And so i think Until we get a Conclusion on Screen the Debates for what ever reason or Evidence will Continue over the Cargo Hold and How Long the Ship has been on LV-426.

So at the Moment i think Fans are Entitled to make their own Conclusions, or Accept what the Story is as its Told, even if that means they have to Overlook Certain Flaws.

Oh i will Apologize for my use of CAPS and Bold... i do this NOT to Force a Point but to make Certain Points Stand out against the Back Drop of my Many Many Words and not the Best use of Grammar ;)  Because otherwise some KEY points would get Lost like a Needle in a Haystack LOL

"However, what Big Dave is trying to argue"

I am sorry if you Interpret my comments as this, i Never Intend to set out as though its a Argument ;)

"They did not Jon Sphaits said they deliberately went for an 8-foot creature rather than a giant elephantine one for storytelling reasons"

Certainly and this is also what i have mentioned before, that for the STORY you needed Certain things to explain HOW/WHY would the Human Characters be Connected, and having a Giant Elephantine Race who Cant Communicate with Mankind or Shares NO History would mean that you have to come up with a PLOT to HOW the Humans would END UP going to the Same System as in ALIEN and then ONCE you have given Answers to ALIEN its where do the Expand on the Space Jockey if it was a ALIEN RACE that has No Way to Communicate with Mankind etc... or History.

The SCALE was just something they thought would be Convenience as the intention of SPAIGHTS was a 15ft Engineer, then this went down to 12ft and then 10ft but they decided to go for whats Practical and to NOT be using Special Effects and so we END up with 8ft Engineers for a similar Reason we END up with Toxic Avenger Fifield.

Some Changes they had No Real Reason for, such as Aesthetically to have the Ship a little Different Internally (Pilot Room Architecture) it was said it was a case of to TONE down the HR Giger Aesthetic a little.

some Changes came about for Plot Convenience such as RS wanted a Scene with the Juggernaught Rolling and so a C Shape was Used instead of the U Shape as that would not Roll.

some Changes are likely for Budget and Time, and so it would have been Easier to have the Cargo Layout on the Same Floor, compared to Extra Cost and Time to show them Enter the Ship and have to go through Corridors that would Snake Around on a Incline, or have Ladders or a Engineer Lift System to other Floors so it was likely a Convenience.

And so while this means there are Differences, those who are Working on the Movie especially as far as Director goes, then its a Case of such things really should not MATTER in Terms of the Story they are trying to TELL...  Ridley Scott had indicated the Ships are NOT the same but Related, well he had inferred they are Separated by Hundreds of Years (bit odd) and they are Brothers, his point really is that the Derelict is a Engineer Ship, the Pilot is Related to the Engineers also, the Differences in Ships does-not mean they Belong to Different Races

What he says could be just a way to get around that there was Differences for a Number of Reasons but we should Consider them to be Very Related and NOT that they are Totally Different...

If they had SCRAPPED the Draft that Lindeloff had did and decided to Produce what Jon Spaights had done, and Replicate what was Described then the SHIPS would have been Very Much Similar, the Space Jockey also similar size to the Engineers.

Plots Change, and Props/Sets can Change a Little to Suit the Needs of the Director and Production as far as to be Convenient to the Next Installment.

By that IF we got another Movie where we are shown a 8ft Engineer gets infected by a Face Hugger, then he Climbs into the Seat of a Juggernaught with the Same Layout as in Prometheus/Alien Covenant, (Pilot Room) and then we see this Ship Flying towards a GAS Giant and then we Cut to the Pilot Getting Chest Busted and then see the Ship Crash on a Similar looking Moon and the LAST SHOT is we see a Chest Buster Run Off then we go down a Shaft/Tunnel and see a EGG Cargo Hold that is NOT as Huge as in ALIEN.

Then if this is the Conclusion, and its what Ridely Scott says is what shows the Space Jockey Fate, then we have to Accept it for what it is, even IF it does-not match what we saw in Alien to a High %.

We can all HOPE they would Pay Attention to Matching the Details, but that does-not mean this is what we would GET and if we get a Conclusion as above then we have to OVERLOOK the Differences, or just Boycott it and Pretend it NEVER happened which is down to what Each Fan wants to Accept or Not.

The Debates and Images i was showing was really to TRY and look at IF or IF-NOT the Egg Cargo Hold would FIT on the Ship so as to see if a Separate Silo could NOT be Ruled out, i have Accepted that in Likely Hood we have to Accept its Part of the Ship and a Oversight (something we have to Overlook as far as Inconsistency)

It was NOT really to Connect the Juggernaught or Discus this Ship, as i was keeping it open to that we have TWO different Ships but both Similar and by the Same Race... a Boeing 737 and Airbus A380 would look VERY Similar to someone who had NEVER seen a Plane before, and while Slightly Different they are the Same.. they are Aeroplanes intended for the Same Purpose.

"So I am not shutting down or disrespecting other peoples entitlement to like or not like something I am simply standing up for recent films and their makers and restoring the truth of how decisions came to be made."

Absolutely and i consider you comments as such, and with respect.

I am actually one of those are Accept the Changes, all i do is try to look at Each Side of the Story, and try and Find some Reasons to Support Different Sides/Views...

I fully Understand and have agreed with Changes and what it is that RS was intending, and things Change as they go along for what ever Purpose, and these Usually are a Change in the Narrative Story, and Changes to be Practical so that Story can be Told.

I am NO Expert or Pretend to be, i have a Passion for the Franchise and i do like to Look in Depth at things.. but then i always to bring about the OVERSIGHT Comment which is a Closing Statement usually to Consider that Regardless of what we may Want/Think or See, that we have to really just Pay Attention to what we are being TOLD and that Discrepancies are things we should OVERLOOK and not be Expected to Nit Pick as then you End Up making some Cases against what they are SHOWING us, but i still think its Fine to  Take Part in Discussions..

ELSE what we should have is Ridley Scott make all the Prequels and ALIEN into some 3 Part Novel a BIBLE where he is Every Word is Gospel and then END any debates and so there would be NO Point to such things....

For the Record while i may offer and look at different sides to each Perspective.... i actually like Prometheus, my Disappointments mainly (apart from some Execution) is our Engineers are a Little on Smaller Side... but as i made a Case Before... NOT every Human is between 5ft10-6ft Tall, so while we have 7.5-8ft Humans... WHY-NOT 9-10ft Engineers and then the Rest of the Size Differences... well as Kane Said... "looks like its Grown out of the Chair"

The other Issue is the David the Creator... i understand the Reasons for it, and it makes Sense, but i feel they could have had him Create something Similar but that is more Superior and THIS would have Fitted the ARC and Story while Maintaining the Mystery of ALIEN and also in showing HOW it was David had Created his OWN Monster we could get a Insight to HOW the Engineers had Created their own Many Thousands of Years Prior.

Its a Shame Really as i think IF it was that RS was allowed to Fully go with what his Plans was after Prometheus then we could have got something Different, but i Understand the PLOT was Too Bold and Complications are bound to happen as far as getting a RIGHT Story and so with Alien Covenant it was a more SIMPLE/BASIC Plot to Follow and Execute.

PS... Sorry Chli if i have taken this OFF TOPIC

@Chli

Back to the Derelict and Aliens...

We can Assume the HOLE is near/in the Arm Section as it appears the Jordons had been looking up at this Section, just prior to Parking the  ATV/Transport.

I have attempted to Estimate where they could have Entered.

NOW this looks like some Damage from Inside but it could be down to a Meteor Strike, we cant also RULE OUT that this was not there in ALIEN but then WHY would the Nostromo Crew had Entered the other Openings However?

I would however be Drawn to Assume it had Happened after ALIEN and it looks like something had Exploded in that AREA but something that was not so MASSIVE that it had not Created a Massive HOLE

So that leaves us with some Possibilities to HOW/WHEN and WHY that Hole had been Made ;)

Also if the Derelict can sustain such Damage then the Potential is that a NUKE would do more, but the Juggernaught appeared to Suffer Little Damage with the Collision with the Prometheus... But maybe Externally the Ships are Tough but from Inside or/and Over Time they are Weaker.

So the Survival of any EGGS if its Part of the Ship would depend on HOW FAR away the Derelict it.. a 40MT Blast would Destroy only up to the 40KM Mark (that would not be Critical Damage Either) as Actual Fireball would be about 6KM so NOT as big as Nebraska

So again we cant Nit-Pick over Particulars because if it was a 40MT Nuke then if the Derelict is over say 20KM away then YES something could be Salvaged but maybe would be Radioactive...

Considering a Blast the Size of Nebraska and Damage to the Derelict in ALIENS then it would be a NOT MUCH of a Chance of Salvaging anything from INSIDE the Derelict.

None of it really matters much, because IF they give us a Movie that Visits the LV-426/Derelict Site after Hadleys Hopes Destruction then they could have it that the SHIP had suffered Little Damage.... or even the Cargo Hold is Safely Underground.

In either OPTION... we would have to Accept it, regardless if we are like... NO WAY it would have Survived or NO-WAY thats Part of the Ship etc.

If they want to Explore the Eggs on the Derelict after Hadleys Hope Destruction they would make whatever Conveniences for such a PLOT... Contrary to what we may have been shown Prior.

@ BigDave,

I'm pretty sure that Cameron's inference is that Russ and Ann entered the derelict through a hole caused by and nearby the collapsed starboard arm.

BigDave

Sweetheart Oversight means 

"an unintentional failure to notice or do something."

It's very simple what you keep on calling oversights are not they are deliberate choices.

However, what I am not questioning is your right to do the analysis to show the differences. 

To be entirely candid with you the reason I wrote a very long forward to my work on these dimensioning issues is to put on record I knew so I did not get bogged down in this stuff. When I found having 130 Ovoids in a Juggernaut did not get any comments from anybody I removed it to the notes.

When I travel and meet people who are ordinary filmgoers and mention the sort of things people obsess about on this site they look at me blankly so I am also trying to represent the silent majority who do not give two hoots about this stuff. 

I am sure people find the idea of going to the trouble of writing two novels which challenge what an intelligent creation looks like bizarre I find the majority of stuff people write about here profoundly uninteresting. But to defend those people here most fan sites do the same they do not talk story, character, atmosphere or themes they talk fabric.   

I will keep out of these threads in future and I apologise to chli for offering my simple 1979 view of things. 

@Gavin

Certainly there was no Real Explanation other than it just Happened, we are then NOT supposed to Wonder to HOW only that Section became Damaged... to keep with his Idea and if it NEEDED a Explanation then they could say  it was caused merely by a Meteor.

It looks like it was Blown from the Inside, but that does-not have to be the Case, but what i was referring to is that the HOLE does allow for Speculation, and Potentially another Story to Explain HOW it came to be, the Same can be said for the HOLE that Kane Climbed down.. it could be explored in a number of ways, but likely will get NO explanation.

"an unintentional failure to notice or do something."

Thanks... i will admit sometimes i do maybe USE the wrong words,  my point of what i mean would be from OUR POV in that any Inconsistencies that we can pick up on, that some are Intended or some are Forced, and that IF these allow us to Argue/Debate that Certain things cant be like (thats NOT a Suit, it looks a Skeleton, and that is a CAVE its to big and Kane said it was a Cave) then what i am saying is that we have to Overlook any Flaws and Accept what the Writers/Director is trying to show us and so maybe YES then using Oversight is a Error by me and i should used another Word.

And so what i am saying is there are Changes, Differences that Happen that to the Viewer may seem Errors, but in Many Cases they are Changes that are Forced, or Purposely made to be more Practical.

To FIX those Discrepancies, they would have had to SHOW a Ship and Explore it having a Cargo Hold Under the Pilot Room which they would then have to make the Ship Larger, or Show the Cargo Hold as Smaller than in ALIEN... but they NEVER did this for reasons such as to NOT be directly connected to ALIEN, for reasons to TONE down the Aesthetic, but if they ever SHOW the Derelict Event then the same applies, they COULD reveal a Larger Part of the Ship, they could make the Hold Smaller... and what ever they do, any differences we would have to Accept and Overlook as it should not (as far as the Director etc) have any real effect on the Outcome of the Story.

And so when i use Oversight then that was maybe the Incorrect Word to use, as what i mean is from our POV in that any differences we would have to Accept and Overlook the Fine Details.

Lots of things get Changed for Convenience and PLOT and Practicality such as the U shape to C shape for the Juggernaught as a U Shape would not ROLL for that intended Crash Scene.

Cameron's Dome-less Xenomorphs, due to the Clear Part of the Costume not being Vigorous enough to withstand the Action Scenes and would become Damage or Come apart and so they was Removed for purely that Reason.

They had intended 15ft Space Jockey Race/Engineers, but then 15ft really is Massive! (I estimate the Space Jockey at 13ft), when Production Came it seemed they intended for 9-10ft Engineers.    But to USE such Engineers would mean LARGER Props such as Cryo-Chambers and to then Rely on CGI and Special Effects and so for Practicality they decided to just stick with the 7ft Actors to Create a Illusion of 8ft

Ridley Scott knows the Space Jockey was not 8ft, he had Decided that to convey even 10ft would require more Budget and Time and other Problems, that 8ft would NOT and so the decision was made,  For him it DID-NOT matter if this would NOT match the Space Jockey Size, for him it should not effect the PLOT/STORY that he is intending to show and at that point the Space Jockey was going to be a Mystery Anyway, but he had Confirmed for all Intensive Purposes the Space Jockey was a Engineer.

And so we are Expected to Accept and Overlook the differences, and for me then using Oversight was the Wrong Word and for that i Apologize for that and if it is Mislead/Mis-Interperted

So in a Nutshell i am kind of agreeing with what you are saying, i NOW understand the Context of using Oversight instead of saying we have to Overlook things so the Wrong Word Choice was used, which i will try to Refrain from using again.

I take part in debates about Errors, Sizes for just the debate and Speculation, and that these could be Explored/Changed for example they allow for the Introduction of another Race, or Taller Engineers etc.. but i always also Mention that we would likely have to ACCEPT what the Director etc is trying to Convey to us and Overlook any Inconsitancies as NOT really being Necessary to the Plot as far as the Writers/Directors etc and we have to Overlook them (i would have said consider them a Oversight on our Part, but i understand that is the Wrong Word Choice now).

"I will keep out of these threads in future and I apologise to chli for offering my simple 1979 view of things"

No Need to Apologize everyone has different views some get Bogged Down on the Visuals/Details, when the Story is whats more Important ;)  I look forwards to reading your Version, and thank you for the Effort and Passion that has gone into it.

"I am sure people find the idea of going to the trouble of writing two novels which challenge what an intelligent creation looks like bizarre"

I have yet to Read them, i think its sounds a Interesting Take, and its always interesting to take on board other peoples Interpretations, and what we get on here is Fans do have some Issues with what is being presented as far as those who Work on the Movies, Ultimately regardless of any Inconsistency, we have to Accept what the Director and his Team are Intending at the Point of Wrapping up the Movie on the Cutting Floor....  Until we get a Conclusion then some fans will Speculate or Wishfully hope what we get is Different to what is Intended as that does-not reflect what some people had interpreted from the Movies... but WHEN/IF we get a Conclusion then we have to ACCEPT what ever we are TOLD as far as Story more so than what is Shown in Conflict to previous Plans or Inconsistencies.

@chli

I apologize if i have derailed some Threads... the Reason i recently tried to look in Detail at the Derelict Sizes was to Frame it in Context to the OT, where it seems INDEED the Cargo Hold would NOT have FITTED and its IF we accept this or it is Revealed then in Context to the OT then the Likely-hood of their being some Eggs that can Salvaged after ALIENS would be Greatly Increased in comparison to if the Revelation would be as RS has said, that the Cargo Hold is part of the Ship.

I think it would  not matter Regardless because if they did in Context to the OT a Movie that goes back to LV-426 and the Derelict then for the Convenience of Plot the Derelict could be left as IN-TACT as they wish to suit their Story.

I don't think we need to apologize all the time. Let's just discuss, high and low. Either you find something interesting and you take part in the discussion or you just skip it.

This topic was about the eggs on LV-426. Which came first, the egg or the xenomorph? :)

"This topic was about the eggs on LV-426. Which came first, the egg or the xenomorph? :)"

Was that not really more this Topic ;)

But i get what you mean, and so regarding the OT i have already outlined what i had to add to it before, the Recent Attempts and looking back at the Cargo Size was Purely to see if any Credibility to the Underground Facility/Hold Theory.

I think in Reality its something we are Free to Discus until we get a Conclusion, or we just accept what Ridley Scott has said.

Ultimately as far as "What are your thoughts? Are the eggs still there? Still waiting"

It depends if this for us to Speculate or Not, and i think at the End of the Day.. the Eggs will be there Waiting if this is WHAT the Director/Production Company want to Explore should they wish to go back to LV-426 in a Time-Line set after 2179 ;)

I mean Ripley Died Right? End of Story.... but they found a Plot to Bring her Back and so Regardless of what happened to LV-426 we cant rule out the Eggs still being there its not like LV-426 went!

I think the Eggs are still in the derelict

I think thats a Possibility yes....

Did the Destruction of Hadleys Hope, go and DESTROY the Derelict? We cant be 100% sure, it would seem the Intention was this....

The Problem we have is Alien Resurrection, as IF they could Obtain a Specimen from the Derelict after 2180... then it kind of makes NO SENSE to attempt to Clone Ripley in order to Obtain a Specimen.

Speaking as ONLY in Terms of the Movies.... then you could go back to LV-426 and see if there are Viable Eggs to be had, or would they NEED some Experiments to be able to Obtain a Specimen (for Example have they suffered Damage or Radiation etc).

But i like to think we NEED to get out of that BOX that the ALIEN MOVIE Franchise has been Stuck in.....

Question...... Was LV-426 the ONLY place that these Ships had Visited?

If we go the route the Xenomorph is a Engineered Weapon (David or Engineers) then can we ASSUME that the Derelict was the ONLY Ship that they had been Loaded onto?

If they go the Route that the Engineers/David had NOT gone and Created the Xenomorph and they are a Pre-existing Organism, then you could GO to where they came from... but having this be LV-426 would be a COP OUT!

I like to think if the xenomorphs were an artificial creation then there would had to be xenomorph production-centers scatter across Engineer/Space Jockey space.

You don't make one weapons factory or warship drydock or tank/plane assembly line.

I think thats a Valid Point, it really depends on WHO had Engineered them....

Before ALIENS came along, we could be Drawn to the Space Jockey being a Race who had Engineered these Organisms, for WHAT Purpose... we could not be sure but RS had alluded to them being used as a Biological Weapon.

ALIENS came along and with its Queen and the Hive, it threw the Spanner into the Franchise to PUSH us to Consider the Xenomorph was maybe something the Space Jockey had Merely Stumbled upon (in Camerons Defense... this was the Underline Plot for STARBEAST by Dan O'Bannon).

Before ALIENS and a little after.. Ridley Scott wanted to go back to the Franchise and he was looking at the Xenomorph being more Advanced than we saw in ALIEN and looked like he may Explore the Back Story of the Starbeast... but then he was also Toying with them being merely a Weapon and so he would have Explored the Space Jockey Race.

While James Cameron wanted to go back to a Xenomorph Homeworld and saw them as their own ALIEN SPECIES... which would mean the Space Jockey had attempted to take Specimens away but he ONLY got as FAR as LV-426.

If we go the Engineered Route then you left to ASK?

1) Was the Xenomorph the Desired Result of Engineer Experiments? or some Accident?

2) What Organism had Originally Predated all of this, was it the Deacon or was  that just another Experiment?

3) Were these Experiments something Sanctioned by the Engineer Hierarchy or a Rogue Element? (This could help us indicate if there would be ONLY the One Outpost LV-223).

Regardless of IF we have just ONE ORIGIN and Outpost, we cant ASSUME that the Derelict was the ONLY SHIP that had EGGS that had Left the Outpost...

Going the David as the Creator Route does leave a lot of Hurdles... like HOW would he Load up Multiple Ships and WHAT was the Space Jockey Relation to David and his Agenda?   The ONLY Solution that makes sense and would be more easy would be the Engineers Discover what David had Created and they then Collected them and MASS PRODUCED them even maybe Evolved them so we got our Eggs on LV-426... but maybe others could be elsewhere too?

I would assume so

I still feel the original RS bioweapons idea could still work with the Cameron's queen.
My personal head canon, is that the queens evolved long after the engineers/space jockeys had created them as they slowly evolved beyond their original programming. Kind of mirroring mankind's own eventual situation with the androids.

Certainly we had RS say you can still get some LIFE out of the Xenomorph you have to Evolve him.... come up with different ways to Procreate.

So as a Perfect Organism its NOT beyond the Scope that the Parasitic Organism can find other ways to Evolve to Adapt and to Procreate.

The Egg Morph which was the ORIGINAL idea of Procreation could be Explained away as the Method that the Xenomorph would CREATE a Queen.... this would explain WHY the Xenomorph in the DC Version only required ONE HOST to become a EGG and another to become the HOST for the resulting Face Hugger.

I always thought the egg morphing was the original reproduction method. Like for first tens of thousands or millions of years, the xenomorphs would be queen-less.

Then one day maybe the xenomorphs are either exposed to the black goo or natural selection happens then the strongest of the xenomorphs started maturing into queens to get around the limitations of egg morphing.

Well it depends on HOW you look at its Origins...

As a Engineered Creation (by whoever) then you have THREE OPTIONS.

1) That Various Versions of the Xenomorph are Created which USE like Different ways to Procreate.....

RS had indicated the Derelict had Numerous Cargo Holds and each had something a bit Different... (going on to say it had 8 Variants). If we consider this then the Jordens from ALIENS may have got infected by a Face Hugger from a Different Cargo Hold than what Kane had.

2) The Xenomorph would eventually Evolve into a Queen or a way to Create a Queen.

3) There is just ONE kind of Xenomorph on the Derelict and it USES the Egg Morph to Create a Queen.

If you go for the Xenomorph as a Native Species that is NOT Created then OPTION 3 would be the way to Explain it (if your going to Accept the Ovamorph Scenes).

OPTION 3 makes Perfect Sense..... you see in ALIEN the Xenomorph had Captured just TWO CREW... and so ONE would be Egg Morphed the other would become the HOST for the Face Hugger and then you have....

TWO XENOMORPHS....... but then why not go and use Lambert and Parker to then get you.... THREE XENOMORPHS?

If the Egg Morph Process makes a Queen which can LAY EGGS, then you only need TWO HOST which is ONE for the EGG and the other to Gestate the Queen. This has always for a LONG TIME since late 80's been the way i look at how we have the Egg Morph and the Queen.