About an article from the Escapist Magazine

ignorantGuy

You miss the point. I mentioned parodies and irrational characters as reasons for criticizing Prometheus, instead of some lack of xenomorph.

"BigDave Sorry about my previous comment I might have been too harsh."

Not to Worry, i never thought it was Harsh at all ;)

Certainly some Scenes could have been CUT to make way for others... Kung Fu David ha ha.. love it.  I was kind of thinking WHAT if a Predator Turned up after Walter was First Taken Out?    Maybe THIS?

"I don’t want to seem rude, I just want to show all the absurdity of your logic"

Who knows... thats why i had Suggested that it seemed in part that RS was not a Fan of the Xenomorph anymore, but then he Contradicts himself.

The Article in the OT seems to indicate maybe Alien Covenant was kind of a Sabotage in Reaction to Fans not wanting to see a Prometheus 2.

It is NOT me, as far as my Opinion, but i was just looking at some of the Comments by RS that they (those who have the SAY in the Franchise) seemed to think that Fans wanted the Xenomorph and Answers...

Prometheus had other complaints beyond the Xenomorph well lack of, and Certainly there was more Flaws, and by adding the Xenomorph alone would not have been the Answer, we have the Xenomorph in AC and it is Bugged by other Problems....   RS seemed to indicate about being ahead of the Curve that maybe AC proved you can add the Xenomorph and its NEVER saved the Movie.

Well the reasons for AC not being so good is NOT down to the Xenomorph ;)

I dont Hate the Xenomorph i think that it has been Shown a lot in Comics, Games and Movies that i think to make another 2-3 Movies that center around it would be HARD to do, because you can END UP doing Damage to the Reputation of the Iconic Beast...  we see the same effect with the Countless Jaws Sequels and Knock Offs..... Giant Killer Sharks just became Meh!

As in the other Topic... i gave 3 Options to how you look at the Origins... depending on the Revelation of its Origins, has a Impact on the Xenomorph.   It seemed the idea was they are merely a Created Bio-Weapon... which Limits the Xenomorph a bit.

So i fully understood WHY it was that RS felt the Need to Explore the Space Jockey with the Engineer/Humanity Plot

As YES once you gave the Origins to the Xenomorph and the Derelict Event, its a case of what Next? Especially when the Revelations are the Xenomorph is merely something that was Created to Destroy for the Purpose of getting Rid of Pesky Humanoids.

I think that AC was a Massive Error!

I think that reducing the Answers to the Xenomorph in Prometheus and not having a Substitute was a Error.

In Hindsight maybe NOT being Alieny enough was a Problem for Prometheus, only as FAR as Fans would have expected that Prometheus would have eventually given us a Path to the Xenomorph.  The First Movie needed some more Clarity to the Xenomorph and to introduce something similar, even as far as a Neomorph which is similar.   Then they could have Closed the Door to ALIEN and gone and Explored the Journey Dr Shaw goes on for Answers from our Would be Creators... which i think eventually you would have to Introduce some Horrors that have some Degree of Relation to the Black Goo.

But we got Alien Covenant... which seemed to Brush Dr Shaw and the Engineers under the Carpet in Favor more so about showing the Pitfalls of Sub-Creation/Rebellion through the Eyes of David.  The Xenomorph being some kind of Fan-Service... and a Big F-U ha ha how you feel now my King David is the Creator!   As far as WHO was the One who Rubber Stamped this Plot Twist.

so it Never Felt like a Origins Story, as far as a Emphasis on the Xenomorph, it seemed it was just OK i am Bored, lets Evolve this Neomorph to make a Killing Machine because "The Devil's Hands Are Idle Playthings"

Alien Covenant did-not need a Xenomorph... it should have had the Eggs and ONE person infected with something that was Slightly Different that gets on the Ship...  you have David reveal that he Discovered the Engineers had Discovered a Organism and attempted Various Hybrids of this, they had Settled and Perfected it but could NOT control this Perfection so it was left Stranded on a Near by Moon, where they went back to the Drawing Board and again became Foul to their Experiments.

Then Reveal that David saw Great Potential in ONE of their Creations they abandoned, and that he had Reverse Engineered his OWN more Perfect Version of it that he thinks he can Control.

So you have a Face Hugger thats a little Different, then the Money Shot is something like the image above, and then by Virtue of Clues to HOW it was that David created that, you could then know the Engineers used a similar path to Create the Xenomorph on LV-426

To Continue the with a Sequel... you would unleash more of these Horrors, the Engineers Rock Up... Destroy all on where ever David takes his Experiments, they Destroy LV-223 so that NO-ONE can obtain these Horrors...

But you then have to have these Engineers Fail to Eradicate the Derelict on LV-426..... The Company then wants to go to LV-426 because they know they can use those Eggs as a Basis to try and Perfect the Organism as David had done so.

This is where/when Special Order 937 comes into Play and the Rest is History...

"The truth is that AC is a film that Prometheus supposed to be. With Engineer instead of David of course."

I will agree that LV-223 was what David was doing on Planet 4 but they made it too ambiguous.  And so indeed that Ambiguity they decided to Explain but now through the Hands of David and NOT the Engineers.

It was the Engineers doing similar Thousands of Years ago, just it was not so Obvious to many... Ridley Scott at that Time even Explained the Xenomorph as such.. another Experiment that had Got out of Control and Evolved...

It was a mistake to then U-Turn that to David being the Creator... having him go onto Create his Own Variant that was more Different than the AC Xenomorph would have Fitted the Theme better and NOT done Damage to the Original.

I dont think every Fan wanted Xenomorphs.... they wanted more Clues to their Origins but would have been Satisfied (for most part) at something that was Similar...

as with Prometheus all we had was a Space Cobra, a Toxic Avenger Fifield....  the Closest we got to ALIEN was the Trilobite and Deacon.   Which in effect would have been like ALIEN coming to a End after Kane had gave Birth to his Son!

Hammerpede planting a Seed in Milburn that then produced a Brutal Birth and Organism like the Neomorph that then Killed 2-3 People... and a Fifield that was FAR more Xenomorph Hybrid would have given more of a Alieny Fix.

Alien Covenant with more about the Neomorph and then ONLY seeing ONE infected person with a Face Hugger get to the Covenant and Chest Burst something that is more Xenomorph than a Neomorph and Deacon but still NOT a Traditional Xenomorph is also something that should have been done..

But Alas.

In Closing..... i would want to see another Xenomorph Movie, but one that does-not have to be about Ripley, and one where we can see the Xenomorph Evolve somewhat, be that Naturally or as a Result of attempted Experiments.

@IgnorantGuy, the budget for AC was $30m less than that of Prometheus.

You can tell. $30m goes a long way.

Regarding RS!

I think he is NOT the Man in Charge, and he is a YES MAN..

He had LOST control of the ALIEN Sequels, its likely they had Evolved differently than he had wanted, he even had some ideas for how to END his ALIEN knocked by FOX.

So when it came to the Opportunity to work on a Prequel, he knew that NO-ONE had explained WHO the Space Jockey was or HOW the Xenomorph came to be and so he wanted to be a Part of that so he can have some INPUT and Control which he never got with the Sequels to ALIEN.

It appeared he was ok with Alien Engineers and the Plot, he Certainly liked how they expanded WHO the Space Jockey was and it was likely a Sequel would have explored the Engineers, and maybe Variants of Horrors and so to Steer Away from ALIEN having provided the Answers.

Some Folk at FOX had decided maybe you never had to show the Xenomorph and keep some Mystery and again RS seemed to think that was a Good Move... was he really Happy at removing the Xenomorph, was he really only saying he was pleased with Alien Engineers because if he Rejected he Feared he could be replaced?

So When/How that change was made around 2015 to go and make a Literal Set of Prequels to ALIEN and introduce the Xenomorph.... i think RS was more a YES man as he would Worry that if he said NO FOX!  i am NOT gonna bring the Xenomorph back or go to the Derelict again... i want to go to explore THE ENGINEERS and Davids Arc.

If FOX wanted Xenomorphs and Origins and RS rejected they could just replace him and ONCE again he would loose any INPUT on how the Prequels would Evolve... so he would rather say YES and then try and have as much Input as he can..  I would say that he STOOD by the David Arc as something he was Very Interested in making a Important Part to any Sequel.

The above is how is see it.... that does-not mean this is Exactly how it went down though...

I would Assume that if we go a Prometheus 2 instead, then during the next Few Movies, so Prometheus 2 but Certainly Prometheus 3 then we would have seen David go and Create something that we would have seen a Similarity to the Xenomorph with.

But as this Path was closed it seems that Someone, maybe RS had become a Advocate of the David as a eventual Creator/God in his Own Right Arc to now play its Role connected to the Xenomorph from Alien as opposed to something Similar but NOT connected.

hox RS himself said that he had the same budget but he managed to spend less by not shooting in 3d and by using his magic, and by ignoring and connections to Giger to ensure they don't have to pay royalties to the Estate. Yes it costed less, but the budget seems to be the same. Or maybe they lied.

BigDave you could be right. Maybe the market research after Prometheus should just that the main problem was its lack of a clear place in the Alien universe or even the lack of the Xenomorph. Who knows what those said? But if done correctly they should be more relevant than vocal fans.

I've read recently that RS is a "Hollywood court artist" (a more nice way to put Yes-man)

>>>I think that AC was a Massive Error!

Well, but Ridley said: "Prometheus was a mistake".

Also, when you "quote" Ridley: "I thought he (xeno) was definitely cooked, with an orange in his mouth". You forgot about his next words: "Wow, OK, I’m wrong".

Yes, Ridley admitted that he was wrong, believing that "the beast is cooked."

Certainly we have seen RS make some Contradicting comments so at times its HARD to try and Figure out what his Stance is, what does he Genuinely Feel, there are other Interviews where he used the Beast is Cooked Comment, and then also after Alien Covenant he came out with comments about being ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.

so it seems he is Very Proud of Prometheus, the Comment about Prometheus being a Mistake seems more so that it was a Mistake to not have the Xenomorph and more Indication to its Origins rather than Overall that Prometheus was a mistake.

It seems maybe Alien Covenant was a Mistake, i get the Impression that he had felt there was No Real Need to have had the Xenomorph.... but this seems only as FAR as that he wanted to go for something Different.

In reality it seems to be he keeps Falling Off the Fence to One Side then the Other... Indicating that a Sequel to Alien Covenant would NOT be about Xenomorphs... but then in other Interviews saying it has to be about HIM but you have to EVOLVE HIM and now that surely was in regards to the Xenomorph.

A latter Interviews he mentions the same thing, that you can go back to the Xenomorph but you have to Evolve it and look at other ways of Procreation....

Ridley Scott seems to be VERY proud of ALIEN, it seems that the way the Xenomorph was Evolved in the Sequels may not have been what he would have done/portrayed as (Queen) but he did say it made sense.

so as he had said before, it seems you can go another FEW rounds with the Xenomorph but it seems that he feels the way we have seen it so FAR has reached some Limits... and so you have to Evolve the Xenomorph to be more than something that can Produce a Queen, that can Lay Eggs, that Xenomorphs via a Infected Host then go around to Create a Hive for Eggs and Capture Hosts to use to Expand their Numbers.

So the Beast may have been Cooked to some Degree but there is always more than ONE way to Cook a Egg.  And while they Beast became a bit of a JOKE with say AVPR, i am sure a lot of Serious/Purest will NOT count the AVP Franchise Portrayal as Canon.

The Xenomorph has Life left in it, you just have to be Careful on how you use/overuse it.... for that its not down to the Fault of the Iconic Monster but the kind of Plot/Story and Execution of it.

Alien Covenant was Flawed in its Xenomorph in a Few Ways of Execution, somethings had to be Changed because the Movie had a LOT to try and cram into the Movie and so Quicker Gestation had to be Played Out....

So while some may look at Alien Covenant as not doing well EVEN THOUGH you got Xenomorphs, we have to remember the Xenomorph was not really done JUSTICE and that does not mean by Virtue of the David Creator Plot.

It was just added for the sake of it, like a Fan Service but then to become something to Raise Davids Role and Character within the Franchise.  While we did see it KILL a number of People.. it seemed to NOT get as much Screen Time as maybe it needed.

I think in Part a reason for why THEY had decided to NOT have the Xenomorph in Prometheus, and wanted to STEER AWAY is because you have a Juggling Act to make Movies that can give as much Justice to the Xenomorph (be about it) but also to be about other Things Too...

So it is like ONCE you show how the Xenomorph is Created, then your left with maybe showing the Chicken/Egg as far as HOW do you get a Queen...  And ONCE you have done those then its HOW can you use the Xenomorph in ways that have not already been seen?

So they had other Plans/Plots with the Prequels that a Emphasis on the Xenomorph could Distract from... which if you added the Xenomorph to it, then you have to FIND the Balance as your either going to Distract from other Things that have NOT been covered in the Franchise... or you will not Distract from them but then the Xenomorph is added in a way that is a Fan Service that does little to do it the Justice it deserves.

So by that then YES you can go more Rounds with the Xenomorph, provided its done Right... provided you cover something that expands the Creature beyond what we had seen in the Franchise.

With the ALIEN Franchise the Xenomorph was the Central Figure and it Worked... with AVP Movies and Alien Covenant then to a degree they was NOT the Central Figure.   You have to find the Balance, and if you are to go and give another 2-3 Xenomorph movies then IF you are going to just Explore them in ways that have already been done, then i think you will Eventually Run out of Ideas and it just becomes something that goes on a Killing Spree.

But some Fans dont have a Problem with that, everyone has their own Opinions.... but surely there is a Brick Wall you HIT if your going to have some Humans Discover, Come into Contact with EGGS.... and we see Xenomorphs Kill, or they go on and show us a Queen to Lay more Eggs.

If done right you could introduce them again for a Few Movies doing similar, Certainly if we discover HOW you get to a Queen.  Certainly if you explore other Procreation Methods..

After that... then its about Evolving the Xenomorph both Aesthetically to a Degree, but more so as far as its Agenda, and what it Can Achieve.... other than Acting like a Ant, Bee or Termite Colony would.

Well, before Prometheus no one complained about the lack of diversity. Now, however, too.

So, what new procreation methods?

It should not look generic. It should look horrific, but not disgusting. It should look unique, but not stupid. There are a lot of fine lines, and there are not as many options as it might seem.

Besides, haven't we seen new procreation methods? Alien: Resurrection and AvPR already explored this. The result is enough to never again return to such experiments. xD

Well the Franchise did attempt a LITTLE bit of Diversity and some Fans liked some of it, while others did-not.  For some Fans they prefer to keep things as they WAS and are not so Happy at Change.....   I think that a Change is Good as long as you do it Right, then a Bit of Change should be welcomed...  For some thats a Big NO NO.

Personally i am kind of with the same Stance that Ridley Scott had, in that i have seen the Xenomorph over and over, and i Felt it was interesting to see something Different, i would have Welcomed another ALIEN Movie say 2010 if it Steered away from Ripley and tried to offer something a Bit Different.  When the Prequels were Announced i was more looking Forwards to seeing the Space Jockey Race explored, than seeing the Xenomorph, although i was Expecting to see something related to the Xenomorph and more Clues to its Origins than we got.

For some Fans they saw the Xenomorph as the CENTER and the Space Jockey as only a Small Part, while for some they should Go Hand in Hand but this depends on the Connection/Origin of the Xenomorph that they was to reveal.

The Few ALIEN Franchise Fans i know (Personally) did-not like the Prequels especially Prometheus, they also never liked Alien 3 (especially as it killed off Newt and Hicks) and thought Alien Resurrection was a Abomination because of how LITTLE the Queen Featured...  Then these Guys kinda liked Alien Covenant and LOVED.... AVP! (not as much as ALIENS though). so give them Queens and Eggs and they Happy ;)

Thats not a knock to her Majesty it just does seem a LOT of Fans see the Franchise and the Queen go Hand in Hand, those Guys i know, even after the Prequels they see the Xenomorph as some ALIEN Organism that are LAID by Queens that the Space Jockey/Engineers had encountered and Attempted to take their Eggs to Study....   Which is really kind of what STARBEAST had showed.

So for me we have a Different Revelation that they are merely as David had done... and before Alien Covenant, then it was as David had done but only the Engineers had done so... or it was something that Evolved from Experiments.

So for me i think IF we continued to do more ALIEN movies then i would like to see them ELEVATE the Xenomorph to being more than a Egg Laying Species that act like Interstellar Ants.   Show them Evolve at the Intelligence Level beyond just Creating Hives to Store Hosts to Procreate via Egg Laying Queen.... and i mean Evolve not so much Aesthetically.   But have this Species Learn and Adapt, be that Naturally Evolve or they do so as a Hubris to some Species attempting to Engineer/Experiment on them.

But for them that would take them FAR away from their Natural Basic Instinct of Procreation.. Take away from a Species that does not have any Morals or Wants, Fears or Desires.... and so they only want to Procreate and the Horror is itself within that due to the Means this is Done.

I guess what some would say is the saying... "If its NOT Broken then WHY Fix it"

To Continue with Procreation....

I felt in PART that AVPR and Alien Resurrection came up with something Different, its just the Execution was not Great.

The Pred-Alien gave us a Organism that Acted like a Face Hugger, which is Interesting, only i felt the Multiple Implantation of Embryos was a bit Over-Kill... but a Organism that would Implant One per Host is Interesting and offering a New Procreation Method.

The Hybrid-Queen  with its LIVE Birth again is a Interesting Concept, just the Execution was Flawed, especially the Look and Personality if you would of the New Born...   But if we saw a Hybrid Xenomorph that would be Free to Move around and would Give Birth to a Tiny Organism that breaks from its Placenta if you would... so in effect we see something like the Neomorphs Births but as far as Birthed from a New Kind of Queen/Mother Xenomorph, then i think that would be Interesting.

The Egg-Morph that was seen in ALIEN DC is something that would be Interesting to see and WHAT is the Result of a Successful Egg-Morph, i felt this could be a IDEAL way to get to the Queen, but then in Alien 3 (other cuts) we had the Royal Face Hugger and so i think it would be interesting if we got another ALIEN Movie to see WHAT is the Process of getting a Queen.

I think for me while i enjoyed the Xenomorph as we had it, i would like to see different Versions of it, i dont think the Franchise should be LIMITED to just the ONE main Xenomorph, especially if they Limit it to having a Queen be something that would MOLT from a Xenomorph and that the Warrior Xenomorphs are MOLTS of the Drones.  like how Cameron felt that the Clear Carapace of the Drone is something of its Juvenile Stage.

But then thats just me.... i would Welcome another 3 Alien Movies with Xenomorphs but i would hope that all 3 dont stick to the same Formula..... Humans Discover a Egg or Face Hugger, that was Laid by Queen.  

I would like to see the Beast Evolve and Adapt more, or see some Hybrid/Evolution come about via Experiments or something else that Goes-Wrong....  For example Blomkamps Alien 5 showed some Mutations and so i find that Interesting.... as to HOW.

PS I apologize for taking this OFF TOPIC.

BigDave "PS I apologize for taking this OFF TOPIC." Do you have anything better to do till Alien day 2020?

Apart from wait with Baited Breath for any interesting to be announced....  not too much lol