Cause of Sin/Fall... Females/Lust

OTHER CULTURES FEATURE THE SAME.....

Many depict the Females in Lustful ways and Man having a Lustful connection.... Hindu Culture its very evident.

This is a theme that is repeated in Many Mythos, includes Greek where Perverted Relationships in Lust for Females happens a lot... where Gods would lust for and even Rape, Human Females...  Goddess Females (even own Sisters/Mothers and Daughters).

If we even touch upon Norse Mythology  and the Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla.  Which one rumor has it David plays this to Weyland after talking about Creation and meaning of Life and Death...

This is from Das Rheingold a Musical in 4 parts based off Norse Mythology.. which follows a interest in Gold, which is a common theme too, in a lot of Cultures The Gods Lust for Gold and Mans is always Strong..... only one thing seems to be lusted more...... Females...

The Story starts with Alberich, a Nibelung dwarf who appears from a deep chasm and spots the Rhine maidens who Gaurd the Rhine Gold... Alberich Lusts for the Females... but they Mock him and tease him because of his ugliness and they brush off his advances... this angers him...

As the sun begins to rise, the maidens praise the golden glow atop a nearby rock; Alberich asks what it is. The Rhine maidens tell him about the Rhine gold, which their father has ordered them to guard: it can be made into a magic ring which will enable its bearer to rule the world, but only by someone who first renounces love.

The Maidens tell all to Alberich because they do not fear he could ever gain the Gold because of the way he Lusted after them.... but Alberich hurt and humiliated by the Maidens Renounces and Curses Love and runs off with the Gold.   

The Second part tells the tale of Wotan ruler of the Gods, who have a magnificent castle  built... by Two Giants Fasolt and Fafner in exchange for payment Wotan promised to give the Gods his Wifes Sister Freia the Goddess of Youth and Beauty.

His Wife Fricka, is worried and does not agree with what he has done, but he tells her its not a permanent payment, he has dispatched his Servent Loge to find something else the Giants could be paid with instead.

But the Giants will not accept anything in exchange for feminine love.

The Tale goes longer but eventually they obtain the Ring off Alberich  the Drwarf by trickery and attempt to use this for Payment. But Wotan decides to keep it for himself... and give Giants Gold instead  The Giants return and demand to have the Gold stacked up High... but there is a Gap in the Gold that allows them to see Freia the Giants demand the ring to fill the Gap but the Ruler of the Gods Wotan refuses and so the Giants take off with the Female Goddess Freia.

How does this connect to Prometheus?

Well its a common theme in many Mythos, the Female is a Figure that often proves a Weakness for Man and Gods too.

But just how does it connect to Prometheus?

Remember the Last Engineer?  the look and interest he had with Shaw, even up to the point of when he found her in the Life Boat he did not kill her right away, she attacked him and even then he could have dispatched of her...

Spaights draft mentions the Genesis 6:4 Bible passage in relation to the Engineers.

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown."

Now lets look at Alien Covenant and we see what could be Engineers, they are Bald Muscular Humanoids, and the Temple behind them has Engineer Writing on the Walls.

In the Scene of Disaster there seems to be Female Forms, these out number the Males, especially in the other leaked few shots from the other week which 100% confirm Females.

Could these Females had been what may have led to those beings Sin/Fall.....

Was a Punishment sent down to them, to kill off all Females, and leave the Engineers having to find other means to Procreate..

Could this be the reason to create Mankind... and why the extended Scene had dialog which included... "Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters. And may your soul be their way back to us."

Ridley said that the Engineers did have other ways to create life, its just the way they do it...

Also of note is that the Xenomorph was very Feminine and what if to create the Xenomorph you needed a Female?

It may only connect to Ancient Mankinds Religions and Cultures and so its just some speculation and theory to try see if Prometheus could tie in with such a theme...

Maybe we have to ask... if the Engineers had Females.. why did they need to Seed life and why create us... unless its something that was taken from them...

The Topic is to show that Many Ancient God tales, speak of the Gods being interested in Gold and Females.... and also that lower Rank God or other Gods can be tempted (also Mankind too) to sometimes Lust for Females more than obey their Creator/Hierarchy and even the lust of Gold.

What if Females could be portrayed as a important theme within the Franchise?

As part of this thread i was looking to expand it as to why the Engineers Fell and why was there Females...

The Engineers maybe had Females, or they was created by the Engineers Hierarchy for some reason (companion or for procreation) but the Engineers then lusted for the Females, and their lust/need for females was maybe more than their service and loyalty to the Hierarchy.

Or the Engineers created those Females for the above purposes without the Hierarchy knowledge and/or permission.

This brought down Punishment, in which they attempted to destroy all the Females...

This could maybe place that Scene of Disaster as similar to the Sodom and Gomorrah Punishment and maybe also a similar reference to Janek when he had to Nuke a Facility because some Scientists Split something... (lead to undesired effects or threat).

This is all very interesting. It's commendable that you read all those fables and commented at length. I can never stand to read fables and stuff, very boring for me lol.

Unrelated to the reason I posted, re may want to reread Genesis because you may have misunderstood some details of the banishment of Adam and Eve. It probably doesn't matter though because there are probably dozens of versions with different facts that conflict other versions. So no matter.

Anyway, the whole gender dynamic. It's all very possible in my opinion, you may be on to something. I don't know where the sources come from or everything that has been taken as canon so when it comes to the claim that the Engineers are unable to reproduce or that they are asexual or euniques ......I don't know if that was really presented as canon or that I can accept that.

There seems to be 3 different ways you can go about dissecting a movie or speculating a story.

1. You predict what the writers will do based on what they have done already.

2. You predict through logic and reason, where the story should lead.

3. You predict using your personal desire of where you wish the story to go.

I think these 3 different modes of speculating about where Covenant will go, cover the modes of how people are approaching it.

Obviously #1 is all that matters. The story belongs to the writers and they are going to go at it their way.

Mode #2 is the way that I have tried to go about understanding the franchise because I really value objective thinking.

Mode #3 is mainly for your own imaginings so you can just play a movie in your own head however you want it to be.

Anyway, in my personal opinion, they have stretched the plausibility for science enough. To bend biology more by insinuating that these humanoid DNA beings can't procreate or that they are all one sex who procreate asexually. I'm just face palming not out of malice but because that would be a unnecessary and ridiculous path for the franchise to take. Maybe they already did it, who knows. Its their story so whatever.

I think you have contributed a lot to the brainstorming about what role the female engineers play in all this and also about possible interbreeding with humans etc...  All the mythos about The Fall of Man and stuff is greatly interesting. I really appreciate your posts because it just ignites a lot of thinking and happy feelings about the possibilities and the mystery of it all.

I don't want to go too red pill here but you're brushing up against some eternal truths about sexually dimorphic species and gynocentric culture. You're correct, the weakness of men and gods succumbing to the lust for the almighty flesh portal is an eternal theme.

Every time you turn around, you see men abandoning reason for the pursuit of love or sex. This theme is present in everything modern or classic. Chivalry, male disposability etc... So we can definitely expect the same old junk no matter what film is coming out. Covenant will not be some postpolitical stride in explaining gender dynamics. It will just be the same blue pill aura as everything else, echoing Biblical myths as the same modern views. We wont be getting a new theme or correct view.

I think the movie will just be a Space Horror honestly. Prometheus had a sweet silver lining of mystery. I think the mystery of the Engineers will not be tackled in a major way. We will not get answers but rather a nice horror film with a few enigmas explained. Gender will not even be addressed at all but it would be grand it if was.

When trying to predict what the movie will do, we are left with trying to predict what the writers will do. Our on desires or the logical outcomes have no relevance.

I think the writers are going to give us like 2 or 3 juicy facts about the engineers and that the rest of the film will be a Alienesque type horror where crew members get offed one by one.

Its going to be a revamped Alien like the first movie and Prometheus combined. We'll see alot of killing, some science experiments gone wrong. In the first 30 mins, we'll get some questions answered from Prometheus:

1. We'll learn about an Engineer civil war where rebels let the Goo loose.

2. We won't know where the Engineers are and we may believe they are extinct but some of them show up in the movie.

3. We'll find out that the Engineers created the Goo based on alien lifeforms that they had to conquer in order to survive.

So that's it. They will never address the real questions like:

1. The actual origin of the Engineers, they're real link to Humans and the world they FIRST evolved on. WONT BE COVERED. Paradise will just be some planet they inhabited.

2. Biological details such as precise links to human genome and the reproductive details and gender. Wont be addressed at all in Covenant.

3. HUGE unanswered questions from Prometheus such as why did no one ever go back to LV223 in over 300 years to find Engineer tech, more goo, more ships etc....They left that wide open. How is it that no one ever followed up on LV223, the rest of the series has no Weyland corp still trying to get Alien technology and Goo and Xenos but all that stuff is readily availbale on LV223, the frist place they ever went and cave drawings all point to it. Yet none of this will ever be addressed. Who cares anyways though LOL.

Alien 5 for sure is going to be a Blue Pill horror movie but it will be great anyway because of Ripley and Bloomkamp.

I don't really dig the whole female hero thing. Its been done a million times and the franchise is great the way it is but apparently we can't get rid of it because they did it again in Prometheus and there is no end in sight. Shaw, the sexy female protagonist who is basically a Lucky combat marine who kills hideous aliens that are perfectly evolved to kill. Its the saem ridiculous premise. Even though females aren't like this it all, we get fed this crap for 30 years solid. Was there ever a Medal of Honor winner that was female. Just saying. But that would not make for a good movie, the whole appeal of it all is the perky breasted fertile female soaked in sweat evading and eventually killing a space monster. We eat it up.

So the question is, will we ever see the writers engage the male viewer with anything more than the same recipe. NO. LOL. They will give us small treats of philosophical stuff and throw us small bones about the infinitely interesting Engineer race but the mainline will not be detoured from. It will at end, be a blue pill space horror, sweating female protagonist heroine, saving wimpy Space marines from a monster and possibly allowing one of the crew to kiss her.

Anyway, thanks for the brainstorming today. I don't mind that that every movie is blue pill with the same sexual themes going as far back as the Bible. I'm used to it. What really drives me to love these movies is the Deep Space, the Spaceships, the Aliens, the biological absurdities and human origin theories.

Some great comments ;)

This topic really was to try fit how females could fit in, its not to say this would actually be anything they would cover though or anything they may have shown in Prometheus... just fun to speculate though.. but i dont think these themes i put would be addressed maybe?

As far as Engineers and Female ones though, i think it could be touched upon.... if say Females were a Gift for some purpose, but they pursued tat gift to much and so it was taken away from them.... so they now had to find other means to procreate or even re-create a race to then bring about Females.

But yes if we go all Scientific... then it would be hard to figure how a advanced Race as the Engineers are shown, simply dont have the know how to manipulate Genes to create a Female though.

What are the points up for discussion here?  The narrow column layout of these forums makes it very difficult to read longer posts, and I'm finding it hard to pick out the relevant parts to discuss.

Great discussion from both side,I enjoy both point of view.but

One point is missing here,important point.

these movies regardless of science and philosophy etc,they are entertainments and the first and final word is investment ( I mean big multi hundreds of million dollars)and big return for that investment .

they hire the best writer and best director (mind you Sir Scott is the most expensive one).sometimes it works sometimes not.

Well i think some of the speculation and theories i was coming to are what was explored in part at some point in Production ;)

It appears from these that Females... and more so Human looking Females played a VERY Important Role.

The Cathedral was a Important Central Place on Paradise/Planet 4, it was where the Engineers kept all their knowledge, it was interpreted by some on Set that the inside had a whole Sacrifice Look to it, with a Table with Groves to Drain Blood and a Sacrificial Knife.

This place had the Hall of Heads/Hierarchy inside and superior beings the  Apostles/Wise Men.

I find it very interesting how TWO concepts for this Place, by TWO different Artist both have Human looking Females on the Doors to this Complex

Sorry to bring this slightly old thread up but the woman in the second concept photo of the temple door made me think of the Virgin Mary.

Determinism

1. You predict what the writers will do based on what they have done already.

2. You predict through logic and reason, where the story should lead.

3. You predict using your personal desire of where you wish the story to go.

I think these 3 different modes of speculating about where Covenant will go, cover the modes of how people are approaching it.

Obviously #1 is all that matters. The story belongs to the writers and they are going to go at it their way.

Mode #2 is the way that I have tried to go about understanding the franchise because I really value objective thinking.

Mode #3 is mainly for your own imaginings so you can just play a movie in your own head however you want it to be.

Anyway, in my personal opinion, they have stretched the plausibility for science enough. To bend biology more by insinuating that these humanoid DNA beings can't procreate or that they are all one sex who procreate asexually. I'm just face palming not out of malice but because that would be a unnecessary and ridiculous path for the franchise to take. Maybe they already did it, who knows. Its their story so whatever.

Given that during the flashback scene we see what appears to be female Engineers, if they are Engineers at all and not another humanoid race the Engineers have seeded, female necessity is rampant throughout the series... Without something laying the eggs in the first place, there would be no eggs. Plenty of dead female aliens lying around, and should they fail, David likely used Shaw's reproductive system to further his egg making...

I do however like your layout of how people look at a piece of entertainment, and I think you're right in that such views shape how we perceive something.

@BigDave

"Many depict the Females in Lustful ways and Man having a Lustful connection.... Hindu Culture its very evident."

Would you kindly provide some examples? Are you perhaps referring to Ravana in the Ramayana or Duryodhana in the Mahabharata?

If so, I would say that these examples do not at all fit in well with your overall theme as Ravan and Duryodhan were already demoniac persons with many vices well before their respective assaults on Sita and Draupadi.

Lust did not initiate their downfall and furthermore both Sita and Draupadi were very pious women who were not in any way lustful themselves and didn't do anything to tempt Ravana or Duryodhan. Plus, Ram and the Pandavas (the rightful husbands of these victimized heroines, were pious and heroic, and not lead astray by their attachment to these women).

But anyway, without knowing if these are the instances to which you refer, it's difficult to refute or concur with your assertion.

Could you please elaborate?

I am sorry if i am not so accurate with Hindu Culture, its certainly something for me to look into a bit more, i think i mainly have interpreted how Some Cultures have Sexulized Females and their is a lot of Naked and Sexual depictions in the Hindu Faith as well as some being Divine, there are a lot of Divine beings with Multiple Arms and Heads and i just find the whole Hindu Culture very Artistic

And so maybe i was a bit wrong to hint maybe Hindu Cultures show Females connected to Sin/Fall... my point of this Topic is that Females seem to be very important in many Cultures and Religions in context to Man and Gods.. And not really that in Hindu Females caused Sin/Fall

I would assume you are Hindu and so it would be interesting if you have and can offer some insight into the Gods and Female connections and i am sorry if i am not quite on the mark with your Culture.

I think on the whole my point was that in many cultures Man and Gods, do seem to have a great interest in Females and Gold and in some cultures we can see these proved to be a bit of a downfall.

I just wondered if Females could be a Key subject within the context to the Franchise as it is touching on the Ancient Astronaut theory, where all the Religions and Cultures or most on Earth are just interpretations of visits from Alien Humanoid would be Gods.

Its always interesting to see which of these Cultures/Religions and Mythos the Franchise chooses to touch upon.

The Cathedral is central to the City in Covenant and i find it interesting the TWO concept works by TWO different Artist working on AC had made concepts about the Cathedral Dome and its Doors

And the Humanoids on those Entrances and the difference to the Engineers... one piece is very Biblical/Greek and the other very Sumerian

And yet Both have Females on the Doors... so at some point we have to wonder why was this? Surely Wayne Haag etc did not think... this would be cool... so we have to wonder if at some point they was asked or given material that allowed them to run with the idea that Females and none-Engineer looking ones are on such a Central and Important Buildings Doors.

I think its interesting we saw Female Engineers too, which raises a Question why Create Mankind...

Why create mankind, indeed. Now there's a question and a half.

They did it because they could? David asks how disappointing it would be to find that out from our maker, the implication being that he believes - or at least suspects - a greater purpose to creation.

We aren't party to that purpose, but it's regarded as a failure, both by the Engineers and David. An experiment that didn't yield good results. The experiment was the action, but what was the purpose?

We know David's idea of perfection, which makes a lot of sense if you take morality out of the picture. What is the Engineers' idea of perfection, I wonder. They seem to revere the humanoid form in their architecture, yet idolise the Alien also.

Are they carrying out what they believe is God's work, I wonder.

Hello BigDave !

Depictions of Goddesses in Hinduism are generally intended to be interpreted as maternal rather than prurient. I think modern/Western connotations have lead to unexpected interpretations in many cases.

Kama (marital love) and Artha (wealth/prosperity) are among the four permissible goals of life, but excessive attachment to either or to any worldly enjoyment can be a distraction to one's spiritual progress.

I believe ideological commonalities among distant cultures likely has more to do with contact through colonization and trade than ancient astronauts, but to me at least, the theme of female lust leading to mankind's downfall seems endemic to Abrahamic mythology.

I agree that females are important in all cultures. Males are as well. Given that each gender makes up half the population, it's a little difficult for me to imagine a society where either was considered unimportant.

The newer faiths, like Christianity and Islam do seem to have a more male focus, conspicuously excluding female forms of God which is an interesting development. It remains to be seen whether it will stand the test of time. 

If you're interested in learning more about Hinduism, the most important starting point is to realize that Hinduism isn't a single religion. It's an umbrella term which encompasses several distinct faiths.

Considering Hinduism a single religion can lead to as much confusion as considering all the Abrahamic faiths and their variants a single religion. This single "Abrahamic Religion" umbrella would need to include every sect of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

(Even Satanism would need to be included because it uses characters and themes from the Abhrahamic scriptures. It takes place in the "same universe" so to speak. Satanism has a small following and is reactionary and intentionally antithetical to the mainstream Abrahamic faiths, but in this way it is analogous to the Aghoris who are considered to fall under the umbrella of Hinduism. I have nothing against Satanists nor Aghoris...but imagine if CNN did a story on Satanists and implied their beliefs and practices were representative of all people of Abrhamic faiths...it would be bad journalism. Sorry. /Rant.).

Anyhow, Hinduism encompasses Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, Smarta and hundreds of varied sects within each of these categories. So good luck in your research :)

Well Bigdave that was an interesting read. I enjoy reading your knowledge ;)

It is all up for debate. You could say that the Engineer in Prometheus thought differently of Shaw and there are several possibilities of why.

It could be that the Engineer was interested in Shaw more than the other crew. But we have to remember there was another female member of the crew in the Pyramid. Did he show anything different towards her ? i never noticed. In the end the  Engineer decided that they all had to die and their species back on Earth.

So if they deemed a female so highly they perhaps would not of killed them so easily. If they needed females in nujmbers, destroying Earth is not the way to go.

So my thoughts are that there are connections and themes running through the prequels and lust and sin are in there no doubt. it is great to see your ideas on the page as i am not very knowledgeable on this part of the puzzle.

Wolves and the lambs is the next one Bigdave. We got all that going on in the various tags myself and ATI and Woolson have done in our "Advent" threads. maybe see u over there for some input when you have time plz ????