In defence of alien covenant...

sorry timmy, there is no defence imo lol just my opinion tho

Movies are subjective, what appeals to one person may not appeal to another. I love Alien: Covenant and I am in a group of 2,500 people on fb who like it for different reasons...

very true. I wanted to love AC so much. haven't looked forward to a film as much as I did AC but for me personally, other than the look of the beasts and scenery, it sucked.

AC will be considered a classic in 20 years.....especially when the first artificial intelligence comes online in the 2040's...people will acknowledge just how right Ridley was...70 years ahead of the curve! 

I've enjoyed Alien3 for the last 26 years...didn't have to wait 20 years to finally understand and enjoy it.

Alien:R is the same way....I imagine that movie will start to to pick up support and 'suddenly' be come a misunderstood classic!! lol

Alien:Covenant is like a 50's b-movie to me: 'Space colonists looking for a new home are attacked by a mad scientist and his space monsters!!'

What's not to like!

MonsterZero

2040s - 2010s = 70 years? Are you taking into account Ash? Was he supposed to have free will in '79? And how do you define artificial intelligence? Conscious robots acting as human, capable of understanding language, capable of "creating"? That will never happen in the near future. We don't understand human consciousness so how do you expect we could simulate them? Do you even understand what today is called AI and how it works? 

And Ridley ahead of the curve? What about the medieval rabbi who invented the golem myth, which inspired Capek brothers to invent the robot term, who inspired Asimov, who inspired Philip K Dick, and Arthur C larke and Kubrick, and final there is also Ridley, who sincerely did not bring absolutely nothing to the table.

And if it becomes a cult movie in the future good for those involved, but don't say that those don't enjoy it don't understand it, as if there is a hidden depth to it that only a selected cabal can access. Right.

I have watched that one before and art is subjective. Alien Covenant to me is still an underwhelming movie. Sure people can try to defend it but there are probably people that try to defend Alien Resurrection too. There are parts of it that are OK but it fails as a whole because of the lack of character building and too much focus on the androids.

MonsterZero: About AR, please no. It is not misunderstood, it is kind of bad. They got it right with Alien 1-3 but that movie is where it started to get worse.

ignorantGuy

Yeah, Ash and Blade Runner. Only really talking Alien movies...certainly not literature.

I saw this before and he hits the nail on the head. Alien Covenant is a lot more faithful to the original than what people give it credit for and it's a shame.

I totally understand AC and it has no effect on my feelings towards the movie. visually its another Ridley beaut but other than that its horrible. AR was a good popcorn movie and an understandable next stage in the franchise. AC for me hasn't really done anything for the franchise. all I saw was a fill in movie to get David his hosts/ lab rats, nothing more. im hopeful for Awakening I really am but expecting nothing ''Ridley Scott'' quality. it looks to be leading to completely trashing the mystery of the derelict and making it all about David when the whole reason RS got involved again with the franchise was to explore who the dude in the pilots chair was and his relationship with the eggs. now its about a synthetic madman whos responsible for it all? nah, ill stick with the originals and Prometheus if that's the case and wait for someone new to reboot AC and Awakening

ali81 Well, for me, it propelled the A.I. subplots of the franchise to the spotlight, solidifying their contribution to the universe instead of just being a sci-fi gimmick. It made the rest of those subplots cohesive (it explains why Call and Bishop are so fascinated by the beast and partly explains Weyland-Yutani's motives for obtaining the creature as they see it their property). It also explained why the beast was bioengineered and who did it, what Paradise is like, the stages of evolution (from Deacon to Neomorph to Proto-Xenomorph) and edges us ever closer to the famed Derelict on LV-426. The Space Jockey is still the main point of the prequels but I'm glad the narrative isn't super straightforward, you need to tell David's story to tell the SJs. It also continues the Creator/Rebellion narrative set-up by Prometheus.

Yesss, that video is excellent! I had seen it back in January or February, i'm so glad someone finally posted it here. 

Indeed. Finally now and two hundred topics before...

Patrick Explains ALIEN: COVENANT - And Why It's Great:

http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/47359

Ati I had forgotten about this video and now remember that thread. It is nice to see it re visited. It's tough to argue with Patrick.

Thoughts_Dreams IMO, it really isn't about defending a movie- it's more justifying why it is good. I think there is a difference. For AR, it is understandable why fans would not like it, but it also had some disturbing dark scenes in its own ways that the Trilogy had not done. The caged Aliens beat down of the weakest and Ripley 8 finding the other seven iterations of herself were pretty brutal and heavy. Just my two cents.

Lawrence, I understand where ur coming from regarding the AI subplot. I love the subplot of the company being secretly run by synthetics etc but these AI subplots can be shown without making it all about David. when I watch alien and it gets to the derelict scene, I want the mystery. I want its history to be alien and ancient to us. if it going to be revealed then make it alien to us, not something one of our creations is responsible for as for me, that takes something away from the possible wonders that could have been attached and explored through the journey of discovery such as the possibility of an engineer civil war or an engineer uprising against their higher power and where the original form of the xeno fell into the mix. this is more interesting imo than just 'oh, the android did it'.

I don't see the connection between bishop and call and their relevant interests in the beast. bishop was fascinated by its simplicity and admired it for that, as being around humans had shown him that we complicated even the most minor of issues whereas the xeno isn't interested in politics, religion etc and only interested in the continuation of its species. and I wouldn't say call is fascinated in the beast. she wants to wipe them out and doesn't show any signs of fascination with it.

again, I love the backstory regarding the company and their dastardly attempts at gaining the xeno for themselves but personally, I want more alien stuff. new species of monster AND sentient beings such as the engineers. I want to know and see more of them but so far theyv been completely moth balled. we know they created a pathogen..... the rest is theory. we know nothing of their true culture and if there is a higher power and we have had 2 films already.

Patrick is right about Alien Covenant. About Prometheus too.

Thanks for sharing this Timmy the ultramorph

I personnaly think that Alien Ressurection is better/more appealing than Alien Covenant. First, because i had much lower expectations for AR than for AC, second the characters of AR are significantly better than those of AC and third i find the crazziness of Jeunet much more entertaining than the visual mastery of Ridley Scott.

Some scenes in AR such as when Ripley find out the seven other clones, or when Ripley coldly tell to the guy what he has and how he will die or the way the chest bursting of the same guy was filmed  are priceless.
I don't see any really priceless scene or character in AC.

Alien Covenant had a lot of potential which was incredibly wasted. It is insane all the things they could have done with the engineers from describing a world imprinted by their civilization and technology, to flash backs giving us an overview of both their culture and technology. Many items of Giger art could have been used for this purpose.

Now regarding the Xenomorph it is much better as either a creation of the Engineers or an ancient species way more sinister than what we could imagine.
The xenomorph is often described as a perfect organism supposedly able to rampage whole worlds.
Yet, we have yet to see anything in any movie up to now which can justify such a reputation !
Alien Covenant could have featured a flash back scene showing how powerful a fully developped/mature xenomorph can be. Because we have just see young xenomorphs up to now.

It is nice to see AR get some credit. We discussed it in a few threads last year. Here is one if interested:

http://www.scified.com/topic/43048

It's nice to know I'm a clever clogs. Because I've always loved Alien Covenant!

Apart from the Xeno vision. We could have done without that.

yea I never liked the way the xeno sees explained in either of the movies it was shown in. best left a mystery imo

Agree- best left a mystery. It looked pretty much how we see and it felt tacked on. A3 did a better job with the fish eye view.

Ali81: That is understandable, it was too much about David. The next one will probably be good visually but I expect nothing as far as the characters are concerned although I hope that they will be better.

Hopefully they will keep some mystery about the derelict, that would be nice.

Thoughts_Dreams I have mixed feelings about David. AC went away from where I would have liked things to go but was also the mysterious creepiness that was intriguing and was enjoyable. 

The derelict should remain a mystery. Explaining everything about it would likely invite fans arguing why and how the explanation doesn't make sense. Besides, things can never be explained enough for some.

Hopefully the movie will return to the Alien vibe in that there is a small crew, we actually see less gore and if/when characters die those deaths mean something and carry some weight- instead of someone getting clipped in the jaw by a neo tail in a quarter of a second during a fast, chaotic panic scene. Also, some scenes with very little dialog could work. Sometimes showing the environment and exploration can do all the talking by itself.

A very entertaining treatise on the movie. I think he is very good at articulating the positive view of the movie without at all investing it with far more weight and significance than is justified, put simply he does not project on to it more than is justified.

The two elephants in the room are :-

1) He dismisses Prometheus for all the reasons I to know it is weak but equally ignores why it is entirely wonderful.

2) In reverse he entirely ignores the main critique of Alien Covenant which it reduces the mythos and the story and the wonderful investment made in the mythos and Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus.

For David to be the space jockey and Weyland-Yutani having been taken over in the intervening years by A I is a limiting view.

For the Engineers to be discovered as offering a mechanical view of creation who suffered a Paradise Lost which W-Y, taken over by a sub created mechanical construct, were trying to control and fail, but where only the greatest elements of mankind's qualities which involve the gift of christ like sacrifice can overcome would have been an astonishingly large canvas in which to place the Xenomorph making it greater and more significant than some wet dream of a robot.

To begin with the acolyte sacrifice which kickstarted, the sacrifice of the pilot and finish with Ellen Ripley sacrifice all of which entwine the notion of mechanical creation and the transcendent quality of soul would have been extra ordinary.

Ridley is taking the ALIEN series and making it the poor mans Bladerunner.            

After 4 years, I find myself liking Alien: Covenant more and more. Those that said it would grow on us over time were absolutely right.

I think the Problem for me is that the CHANGE of a PLOT to make the Sequels to Prometheus become a Prequel that will EVENTUALLY arrive to the Derelict as far as WHEN/HOW/WHY.

And more so they FELT to HOW do you have a Sequel with ONLY a single HUMAN.... so they had the NEED to give us the Covenant Colony Mission and as we are 17-18 Years prior to ALIEN then this meant a LOT had to be Sacrificed as FAR as Screen Time to the Engineers, Dr Shaw and Ultimately the Xenomorph too.

Things had to be MOVED at a Fast Pace, where Character Development had Suffered and Accelerated Xenomorph Life-Cycle was Needed.

When you look at the PLOT A-Z of the Movie then i dont think its so BAD, the David Creator does make Sense when you look at the THEMES of Prometheus.... 

But the PLOT A-Z is something that when your FORCED to try and make it near 2 Hours instead of 3 Hours then you have to CUT CORNERS, and THROW AWAY some Stuff and you cant have Detailed/Lengthy Scenes to SLOW the Pace Down.

As soon as ROSEY when to Clean her Wounds.... and we saw the Neomorph then KILL her..

The Movie went into FAST FORWARDS MODE!

If they had it that ORAM did not Chest Burst, but awoken and could NOT remember what Happened and he was Dragged Out to be Rescued....  with the 2ND Neomorph being the ONE that would KILL Crew Member Cole.

And Oram would be shown to Chest Burst on the Covenant and we had a extra 30-40 Min Running Time then i think the Movie would have been Improved a Little.

I agree, some extra screen time would have been preferable. But what's done is done. It's still a great movie.

Like the reviewer, I'd dearly love to see the awful mess that David creates on his new world.

I think with the aftermath of Prometheus it seemed that FOX had Considered that maybe to make the Emphasis of the Prequels to NOT be about Xenomorphs or Ultimately give us the EVENTS that led to the Derelict on LV-426 was maybe a MISTAKE!

But some Fans were Perfectly Fine that we NEVER had those Answered in Prometheus and i am sure some were Looking Forwards to what does David do when he is FREE and WHAT KIND of beings they Discover and WILL we see Dr Shaw get her Answers?

The Problem that FOX had was how does Dr Shaw be able to Communicate with these Engineers or whoever, what HAPPENS to HER would depend on HOW they would React to her and David turning up, and well some Fans could NOT connect with a Android and some Fans could NOT connect with Dr Shaws Character and then its a case of are they ENOUGH and would they Connect with Engineers?

So you NEED more Humans, and also if they was going to Introduce the Xenomorph and eventually get to ALIEN then thats WHY making the PLOT and Location of Planet 4 be somewhere CLOSE was just Convenient.   But this came at the SACRIFICE of what some Prometheus Fans would EXPECT with a Sequel, while Alien Covenant also DID-NOT please the Fans of the BEAST... the Xenomorph as the Emphasis was on David and having him as Creator was WELL..... lets say  SACRILEGIOUS to the Fandom in General.

But IF they had some Decent Writers and BALLS! they could have Pulled something off that would have WORKED!  We could have had a SPIN-OFF thats SET FAR FAR AWAY!

I have Pitched this Idea a few times, it is what my Prometheus 3 idea would have been about (My Prometheus 2 was set on Earth).

so PARADISE is basically the Cradle of Creation its where MANKIND was Created, its also Considered a Place that ONLY the Worthy, Loyal and Honorable are Permitted to stay....  Hence WHY our Ancestors Adam and Eve were KICKED OUT of PARADISE.

So you have this WORLD that is what 10'000, 20'000 maybe up to 50'000 Light Years from Earth.  There is NO-WAY that Humans with our Technology would have Ventured to this PLACE by the Time we even FINISHED with ALIENS.

This WORLD has a CITY thats Basically the same as in Alien Covenant, with a Central Temple and a Courtyard with Hangers etc. We may see a LITTLE more of the Prometheus Aesthetic but it should NOT be too much Different to Planet 4. Beyond this Central Point of the City are Smaller Areas each with a Smaller Central Building, and the ENTIRE group of Towns/Villages that Connect to a CENTRAL CITY are Surrounded by some kind of WALL.

Who LIVES on this World?

We have Engineers and they could be more like the Planet 4 kind just Taller and more Pale Skinned.... This is the World that they DWELL and where they would KEEP/TAKE various Species that they have Created and are Pleased with but ONLY in Small Numbers...

Among these are HUMANS... you can have it that Humans are Seeded in more Worlds than Earth, but the Humans on Earth had became Unworthy of the Engineers attention and Knowledge and after a FAILED attempt to Destroy us, they had Abandoned the LV-223 Outpost, they had Abandoned Earth, leaving us to ROT and Destroy Ourselves!

These Engineers being so Naive that they THOUGHT without the HELP of their Knowledge then Worlds they Seed/Visit will REMAIN at the TECHNOLOGY LEVEL that they allowed (Level we are at 2000+ Years ago) and so they ASSUMED that on our OWN we would NEVER be able to Master Space Travel and are NO THREAT!

HOW DOES.... Dr Shaw speak with these beings?

EASY... During a Period of where Dr Shaw is BUILDING UP some Trust with David before she Re-attaches him, he could TEACH her a LITTLE of the Engineers Language.

But DAVID would be doing MOST of the Talking, but you then have ONE of the Elders go up to Dr Shaw and Place his Hands on her Head and be able to some how READ her Mind/Soul and see she is GOOD OF HEART... the Engineer is able to Speak with her Mind and Read it.... and he then is able to IMPLANT the Knowledge of their Language to her.

FROM this Point you dont NEED any Subtitles, we hear Dr Shaw and the Engineers and other Humans etc all Speak English just for our Convenience.

The ELDER attempts to Read David but he CANT... he then Discovers what David is and is Concerned as he NOT ONLY cant Read his Mind/Intentions but also KNOWS of the RISK of Sub-Creating a Superior Form or Service Race as THEY had done that  with the LV-223 Engineers, but some of them BEGAN to see themselves as Superior to the ELDERS and their Creations... these LV-223 Engineers were Tasked with Certain Tasks, they was also GIVEN the TASK of Taking the Black Goo to RESET WORLDS.... but those on LV-223 had decided to CREATE something with it instead... they INTENDED to USE this Horror to RULE the Galaxy but they was STOPPED and they had 3 Ships they had intended to USE to Begin their Conquest, ONE had been Destroyed... ONE had made it to a World and Afflicted Horrors on it, this World is Abandoned and the FINAL SHIP had Crashed Near the PLACE they had Created such a thing.

Dr Shaw informs them of LV-223 and they said the PLACE should be Secure as they left some Guardians on that Moon... and they have since Abandoned that Outpost but use others for Genetically Evolving Species but they decided to NO-LONGER do this.  And they just take down Chosen Humanoids to NEW Worlds to Begin Colonization instead of Sacrificing them for their DNA to Evolve Worlds, they FELT they had Achieved as GOOD a Perfection with their Creations and that those they had Created more PERFECT proved to be Problematic.

We get to a Point that the Elders find out about David and what he had done, and DECIDE that he is to be Imprisoned while they Decide what to do, they have a MEETING and Decide to Destroy him.

One of the ELDERS goes to him and says he sees PERFECTION in David and that he had Engineered the LV-223 Engineers but his BROTHERS had decided to UNDO them apart from a Few Loyal Super Engineers..... this Elder thinks the Council has Gone Soft.... and he Frees David, and David asks about the HORROR that they Created on LV-223 the Elder says he can SHOW HOW they achieved this but ONLY if David would RID the World of those Weak/Feeble Engineers.  This Elder says he was Youngest of the Council he had a TWIN who they had Punished for using the Creation Tool in a way they Council had NOT Sanctioned.   He says the Elders had been on the Verge of Immortality at a COST and they Turned their Back on it..... and that HE could NOT go and KILL the LEADER... but if their Council was DESTROYED at the Hands of David then this Younger Elder would RULE and then he would SHOW to David as to HOW they can Rebuild a Superior Engineer Species.

A Group of Engineers take David away, and David goes to get Dr Shaw, we have a Fight Break Out....  Dr Shaw refuses to go with David so he Kidnaps her and makes his way to the Juggernaught and Unleashes Hell on the World.

They meet up with another Ship that has the Renegade Engineers and the Young Elder informs David about in order to Create the Horror they NEED a Human Female but David is NOT so keen to Sacrifice Dr Shaw.

There is more to it than this but this is kind of the NUTS/BOLTS we see Horrors Unleashed on Paradise, the Sequel we would see David go to a Place with the Renegade Engineers, but he Double Crosses them... begins to Create his OWN Horrors... Sparing Dr Shaw and saying with her he can Create a New Humanity that are Superior... but she Rejects, and she is KILLED he attempts to Create a New Horror but it has Problems... but he knows he is CLOSE. He takes his Ship to ONE of the Worlds the Engineers have Humans and David wishes to Destroy them and Subject/Use them to Create his OWN kind of Humanoid.  Another Engineer Ship arrives to what is LEFT of Paradise, and Discovers a few Survivors, they Leave to Find where David and the Renegades have gone, they are Sworn to Destroy him and the Renegades and Prevent them from Destroying all they had Created,  One Elder asks what about the other THREAT?

EARTH, they say they will DEAL with Earth Once they have Ridden the Scourge that is David and the Renegade Engineers and their Horrors.

We would see David go and Create something SIMILAR to the Xenomorph and by seeing HOW we would get CLUES to HOW the Original came to be.  Now there was about 3 Variants of this kind of Idea that Differ to Degree... but it SHOWS you can go FAR FAR AWAY from Earth, and have HUMANS and get Past the Language Barrier.

But whats DONE is DONE....

The Problem NOW is that we have Painted ourselves into a Corner...

You would think that David would USE the Colonist to MASS PRODUCE the Xenomorph, but then he has to FIND a way to Deploy them.... The Covenant would be EASY PICKINGS for a Engineer Ship or Human Military.  There would be LITTLE Reason to go to Origae-6 he would be better off going to LV-223 and to take some Humans with him... then USE that Ship to go somewhere to Conduct his Experiments.

The Problem is that some Fans would NOT want to see a Emphasis again on David, and you would NEED to see some Humans and also they would NOT want to see David have anything more to do with the Xenomorph, and Reveal that NOPE he could NOT have Created it.

What LITTLE we know about the Sequel was that it would NOT be about Xenomorphs it would be about WHERE it is that David goes NEXT and WHAT KIND of WORLD he would Create....  Daniels had asked to who she THOUGHT was Walter about WHAT KIND OF WORLD can they Build.... he said "if we are KIND it will be a KIND World" and so i DONT think we are on a Path where David is purely going to Create Horrors... but Creation is the THEME.

I suspect it will Follow the THEME of Creation, and David had showed he can PERFECT the Horror the Engineers had attempted on LV-223 and i SUSPECT that NOW that David wants to Create his LAMBS and will EVOLVE the Embryos into a NEW Humanoid Species.

But i dont think we will EVER find out what was NEXT.

There was to be 3/4 Incoming Players/Parties with the Engineers the ONLY one he had Confirmed... i would say they are ONE and i would say THREE/FOUR have to be Similar and so that would be HUMANS... and NUMBER TWO?  Maybe that would be the Civilization that David would ATTEMPT to Create?

A couple of things we know about David, for sure, as he was being very candid with Walter just prior to attacking him:

1. He thinks he's already created perfection, in the form of his engineered creature.
2. He can't allow humanity to grasp for resurrection.

So it's clearly foremost in his mind that he wants to wipe out humans. A good way of achieving that would be through a xenomorph army. If I was as twisted as he, I'd
- put Daniels' body to some nefarious use, so she can't blab
- Land the colonists on Origae-6
- Let the colony grow
- Infect the colony
- Send out lies over the ether to attract other ships from Earth
- Let the visitors spread the infection throughout the galaxy

Of course, we know things don't quite work out that way, and an Engineer ship (complete with pilot) gets infected. Perhaps David gets up to his evil tricks, but an Engineer ship lands on Origae-6...