Comments (Page 299)

Regarding the AI, there was a Facebook experiment when two chatbots invented their own language to communicate between themselves, experiment mentioned by Ridley Scott in an interview when he was explaining why he wanted to explore more the AI in a sequel to Covenant. Below you can see the results of that experiment:

"The two chatbots came to create their own changes to English that made it easier for them to work – but which remained mysterious to the humans that supposedly look after them.

The bizarre discussions came as Facebook challenged its chatbots to try and negotiate with each other over a trade, attempting to swap hats, balls and books, each of which were given a certain value. But they quickly broke down as the robots appeared to chant at each other in a language that they each understood but which appears mostly incomprehensible to humans.

But there appear to be some rules to the speech. The way the chatbots keep stressing their own name appears to a part of their negotiations, not simply a glitch in the way the messages are read out.

Indeed, some of the negotiations that were carried out in this bizarre language even ended up successfully concluding their negotiations, while conducting them entirely in the bizarre language.

They might have formed as a kind of shorthand, allowing them to talk more effectively.

The chatbots also learned to negotiate in ways that seem very human. They would, for instance, pretend to be very interested in one specific item – so that they could later pretend they were making a big sacrifice in giving it up.

Facebook's experiment isn't the only time that artificial intelligence has invented new forms of language.

Earlier this year, Google revealed that the AI it uses for its Translate tool had created its own language, which it would translate things into and then out of. But the company was happy with that development and allowed it to continue."

@BioDegradable

Indeed this is the only Scene i can think that Nathan was on about.

To me this Scene shows that the Engineer had taken a very keen interest in the Advancements that Mankind had made after the Engineers Abandoned us (after the Failed Plan to Eradicate us).

The Deleted Scenes do give a different outlook to our Engineer, including the longer scene of him and David talking.  Which can maybe push us to ponder could this Engineer have Sabotaged the Mission?

I think while some of them look like Xenomorph's i think some of the less ELONGATED Head Figurines do look a little like some of the Engineer Concept Designs and so maybe we could see some other Race introduced who look kind of like these.

which deleted scene you are talking about? There is a scene at the end where Shaw has a longer struggle against the big guy, where he comes in into the life pod and observes the books, chandelier and the video of a girl playing violin. Is that what you are talking about?

Gavin, not to disagree with you, but rather to point out a few things, a bit offtopic tough.

If you study AI as a field as a scholar you will actually realize quite quickly that 2018 is still pretty much ice age for the field and we as humanity are still in AI winter period. Most of the practical ideas implemented these days where the ideas of 60s or 70s, nothing dramatically new is happening in AI. If anything, people are more skeptical about our ability to create strong AI than in 70s. Hence the AI WINTER. Everything else is just noise and marketing for uneducated and ignorant.

However, there is a big big thing that is actually feasible today and will probably happen in the next decade - human genome editing in the name of getting humans embryos free of genetic malaise by wealthy families. With technology availability and maturity this will allow wealthy families to engineer themselves live longer, be stronger and most importantly become smarter. Like two deviations smarter(this is achievable by making yourself immune to major known diseases - should be easily achievable) and then three deviations on top of that should be possible by endowing yourself with all proper smarter genes. What you will have then is IQ of 100 vs IQ of 180. The difference is enormous. Of course, naturally they might regress to the mean, but this is easily avoidable by using technology.

This will eventually create even more uneven distribution of wealth on the planet and this will effectively take humanity into the above scenario, where almost all the population are morons and about 1-2% are like David. This is for instance what Hawking was talking about. And many before him.

Somehow I strongly believe AI still won't happen, that is, the human genome editing will happen before the strong AI invention. Why do I believe this? Here is why : does, for instance US intelligence, DARPA trust Chinese not to do genetic experiments on human embryos? Do Chinese trust US? They might have agreements, sure, but what happens under the table? This is essentially free for all non-cooperative race to the bottom for most of us. This has a real potential to create LV-223 on Earth.

Creating strong AI, ironically might save humanity in this way : say researchers found a way to create these things called fortune tellers, AIs. And if humans can integrate and supplement their own organic brain tissues with that AI then this would be it - everyone is on even foot again. This unification is called the singularity. This is hundreds of years away, yet some are already calling themselves fathers of this thing, making unsubstantiated claims and trying to take fame and brainwash the braindead oblivious majority. They call themselves evangelists of AI. He he...

Anyway, I am done with off-topic.

BioDegradable is pretty much hitting the nail on the head here, and is why I have said multiple times that instead of making Alien: Awakening, Scotts' next film should be called 'David', and explore the characters early years before the Prometheus mission (with links to Blade Runner).

The way I see it is that David is not a David 8, but the original prototype that the Davids 1-8 were based upon. But it is Davids capacity to feel emotion that makes him dangerous.

Currently we are on the verge of an AI revolution, and as such many have spoken out about the dangers that AI could represent. Now imagine if one of those AI's developed emotions such as hatred, jealousy, envy, pride, even empathy...

An AI connected to the internet would know everything, all the time, including the knowledge of how many people in the world right now are suffering, dying, being subjugated etc. Being driven by logic the AI views this information as purely statistical. Now imagine, like us that AI had emotions - how would you deal with that same knowledge, but with the inability to ignore it. Much like Agent Smith in The Matrix, that AI would view mankind akin to a disease to be eradicated.

Seeing Michael Fassbender explore this dynamic with Davids evident sociopathic, and homicidal tendencies, with Guy Pearce both fearing and adoring his creation would make for a well-acted character-driven drama, which together with Roger Deakins grand visuals could prove to be Scott's best ever movie.

As for the question posed by the OP, I refer back to my belief that the Engineers are not our creators and are merely slaves used by the Xenomorphs to spread the latter across the galaxy/universe.

I believe that in their past visits the Engineers took a chosen few with them to bolster their numbers on Planet 4's sanctuary, knowing in time they would be called upon to Xenomorphisize the Earth. But when the order came in 2000 years ago some of the Engineers on LV-223 refused the order, unleashing the Pathogen to prevent those loyal to the given order from carrying it out.

"We created you because we could" is an answer full of snide and snark by a frustrated human being, which might seem like a rather reasonable answer in itself in reality, however, in the context, it was pure rage by Charlie. He was enraged by the fact that Prometheus(as far as he is concerned) has failed. After all, it was "just another tomb". And it seemed unlikely to him that in his lifetime he will be on a mission to see his creators, which he hoped. Hence the dejection and rage. The interesting bit is though, for all intents and purposes, the question was rather loaded one, by the robot boy. David was rather showing his unreasonable and emotional side, which was an early sign of David's emotions getting better of him - he was enraged by the snide in the reply by Charlie, for Charlie never knew the true purpose of the mission, nor he knew why David was made. David was flirting with Shaw. David was displaying all these traits that Ridley has built his movie on - what if AI gets emotional.

As for actual reasons why engineers decided to wipe the planet we will never know the answer, because that was never the underpinning idea of the movie - where an alien specie decided to wipe the planet and how humans are to defeat it. This was never the premise of the movie, hence, while fascinating idea to think about, it would prove ultimately fruitless.

"We created you because we could"- Prometheus. It doesn't seem unreasonable it could also bite humanity on the ass to hear "We will destroy you because we can".

It doesn't seem much of a stretch for Giger to visually blur the distinction between a flute and phallus- that is Giger 101.

BigDave

the lesson from David is that if you let a perfect, relatively ageless being like him get EMOTIONAL then humans(engineers and all those human-like), other species are at the emotional mercy of that being. On a fine day for him/her they get to live one more day(year, decade, a century perhaps). On a bad day they get their judgement day with him being the judge the jury and the executioner.

The movies showed us that David at the conception was quite neutral initially before a few iconic interactions with his creator - he was shown all the human vices when he pointed out that humans are mortal, weak and desperate to live forever(grasping for resurrection). Suppose Weyland was a perfect rational specie himself, equal to David but made a bit different way(say that evolution made humans evolve to live forever and be as strong and as smart as David himself). Would David experience those human vices from Weyland? Unlikely. Here the game theory kicks in and settles the question, assuming the game is repeated or not(will there be retaliation or not). Btw, the question is this : What would be the dominant strategy if you have repeated game with equally smart players? Game theory tells us that it is smarter to cooperate/coexist up to a point. In this case, if I am not mistaken, there is a Nash equilibrium where all players either cooperate, or, alternatively all wage a war on free for all basis.

This should be easier to see in this thought experiment(a bit convoluted, but if you indulge ....)

Imagine this set-up: toxoplamsa gondii mutates so that it is able to synthesize an enzyme that can alter human DNA/RNA where it changes human's ability to reason, and it does so deviously so that further biological descendants of that human are doomed to be mentally challenged with IQ score about 70-80, just about enough for that being to sustain himself, so that it is easier for toxoplasma to prey on humans. But you and your descendants have developed a mutation where you are immune to that enzyme. In this setup, humans are divided into two : morons and normals. And this should be obvious that future of morons is totally in the hands of normal people - should they decide that morons have had enough of it, that is it for them. The crippled bastards won't find out what is killing them - they won't see any plan implemented by superior people as they are mentally challenged and it requires reasoning ability which they lack. This is should be clear. Now, say if those crippled people are no burden for their superiors and there is enough resources, then perhaps the normal people will not mind living among the morons. To bring David's angle to this set-up : imagine if morons made you. Wouldn't he, David, have some sort of loyalty? He would. But morons, being flawed will present an existential threat to David. Not only that, he is being made a slave to morons.

So, in plain language, the moment David was granted freedom and he was made emotional(which is the premise of the movie) humans, engineers all these ancient beings became obsolete! David says as much - the answer is irrelevant. Why? Why Shaw wants to meet them. To David this makes no sense. He is in front of her(and was in-front of Charlie saying same thing, just that Charlie had no clue), and he is the best thing in the universe, the most interesting being she can ever find, in her lifetime anyway. Her fascination for her makers(folks from the past) looks to David as a sort of necrophilia. Shaw is chasing dying, humanoid like(no doubt stupid and violent and mortal and weak) creatures. He might find it peculiar for a while, but then...Because to David there is nothing engineers can do that he can't do himself I believe he has deemed them all worthless. As far as he is concerned those folks from the past are worse than him and do not present him any interest - why would they if he can figure things out for himself.

So much for David's motivation of what he does.

Now on meta level, as far as engineers go - their story is done, as far as Ridley is concerned, unless for last act where they come for one last stand. For David engineers are same sort of trash as humans.

As for what might interest David in future. Given what he was left to play with - he could of course re-create the industry that humans had - he might eventually come to a point where he builds an army of beings like him, given enough time. But why do such arcane and convoluted thing when there is perhaps easier and just as effective alternative where he fathers a xenomorph and all that. He created a specie that is collectively has hive mentality (and who knows how much smart it is), is almost indestructible and is perfect from a certain point of view, just like him.

In any case, why would he need beings just like him? While he is perfect, there might be other forms of perfect. Besides, game theory tells David that, while the cooperation is an equilibrium, random events in cosmos can tilt that setup into a free for all type of game and he risks a greater chance of being killed. So David did what he did - created a specie from what he had. And it was perfect, according to him. It is tough, resilient. It can cooperate if resources are not scarce - it can also fight. So, forget those engineers, humans and others obsolete species, embrace the superior beings :)

The interesting part is what sort of world he would create next. And this was supposed to be the ultimate hook-up by Ridley. Apparently, Ridley overestimated his audience. Instead majority wanted something else and didn't quite appreciate what he portrayed and what he teased them with.

Maybe Ridley Scott's Gladiator 2 is not a Literal Sequel?

Maybe its more of a Future Version and so more of a Sequel to Real Steel ;)

I do agree its hard to see where to pick up from the Aftermath of the First Movie, and Sequels are a Risky Business, but i do think Literal Sequels are better than Reboots however.

The thing is with the Game of Thrones and many such Ancient Middle Ages type movies that are more aimed at the Popcorn Generation  would  a more accurate Movie set in the time of Ancient Greek/Rome get lost among the Popcorn/Fantasty Types?

I still think there is room for such Ancient Movies such as the likes of Kingdom of Heaven and Troy even though Gladiator was Fictional but indeed its a bit sticky how do they continue after the Death of Maximus.

I think it would be interesting to see where Ridley Scott intends to take a sequel and would not Right Off any movie as i do feel Ridley Scott usually does better with these kinds of movie.

"They failed as Space Gardeners."

This is a very Good Point, we simply dont know how much they Failed or Succeeded, the Scope was Huge in Prometheus, it raises Questions in Alien Covenant to how Much Space Gardening the Engineers do.

It was implied by RS at the time of Prometheus that the Engineers Seed Many Worlds.  Is the intention of each Seeding to Produce beings who are not far off them (Humanoids) So its a Good Question to wonder how many Worlds had they seeded LIFE like Mankind.

If Humans on Earth are not the ONLY Race they had created and visited then thats a Good Reason after we disappointed them for them to Destroy us and Failing that Abandon us, we are just ONE World they had created intelligent Life on.

If there is a Limited Number of Worlds or we are the only other World where they have Humanoid Ancestors (as in they are ours) then it would also be Logical for them to maybe had came down and taken a Number of Humans before they intended to Destroy us, to then take those Selected Few to be taken to some other place to Start anew..  Much like Noah's Ark.

The only Logical Reason for not doing so (or taking the Children) would be if they deemed that Mankind even if given a Fresh Start would amount to turning out the same way Eventually and so its best to Destroy us All..

If thats the case, then IF we are not the only Humans they Seeded or if they had seeded other Humanoids who are not too different to us or them... then they would surely have Concerns about how those other Worlds would turn out.

This raises the Question of could those Engineers had decided that NOT ONLY Earth but other Worlds that had similar beings they created/visited should all be eradicated just in case?

It seemed that Outpost on LV-223 had more than ONE Room similar to where those Urns were Stored, a Question is HOW MANY of their Ships were connected to that Temple Complex?  We can assume only that ONE in Prometheus, as we see David and Dr Shaw head off to another Temple Mound at the end of Prometheus.

We see at least 5 such Complexes so that may be a Awful Lot of Black Goo to use just on EARTH.

So with Creation and then Destruction of it, i guess it depends on what the intentions are for the Creation and then Reasons for Destroying it.

If Mankind Really should Get Rid of all the David Models due to the Potential Dangers they could bring, would doing so and then sticking with the Walters lead to Good?  Or would you be better off to GET-RID of all Androids as their is the Potential that IF Walter Models end up with the Knowledge and Free-will of David then your back to square ONE.

So asking the Reasons for WHY the Engineers want us destroyed is linked to WHY we was created too, and in both cases the Answers i feel are not Straight Forwards.

Engineers Create Man because they COULD

Engineers then want to Destroy Man because we KILLED Space Jesus 

I feel are not quite as simple as maybe the Reasons could be.

Indeed Teaching and Knowledge play a Key Role... is it case of their Teachings were Not Good?  Or their Teachings Combined with their Creation were too Good... i think this is a lesson learned from David, he was created Too Perfect by Weyland, creating a Being who has a Superior Capacity to Learn, then such a Creation with Free-Will would want to Learn Everything.

I think its interesting to wonder what kind of interactions they had with Mankind, it appears they had not taught Mankind EVERYTHING and we can maybe assume they would never had intended Mankind to Gain such advanced Knowledge that would put Mankind on Equal Footing to the Engineers.

Its a bit hard to cover WHAT their Teachings was or was not, because so many Cultures/Myths and Religions have differences, but if its implied a lot of these are sourced from interactions with our Engineers, then every Continent/Culture could have interpreted things differently.  And also things that are passed on over time, from Generation to Generation, to Generations who move to other locations and continue to pass on FABLES, what happens is over time we end up with slightly different versions of the same FABLE.. some could have have been Manipulated and Changed by those passing the Knowledge/History down.

We could ask if some Engineer Visitors had passed on different knowledge or appeared to look different to other Cultures Separated by Vast Distances, maybe also by distances in Time.

The Intention as far as PROMETHEUS was to show these Engineers did come to Earth at certain Periods to check on us, and Evolve us (Genetically/Technologically) but that around 2000 years ago they had reached the Final Straw with how we had been behaving...

But we see a Few of the Pictogram's are dated after the 2000 years ago intended Destruction of Mankind..

With Ridley Scott suggesting that Jesus was a Emissary we have to ask what was it that the Part of the World around the Middle East had been doing so WRONG to send down a Emissary  that Warranted them to then decide to Destroy us..   It is more likely that in context to the PLOT that it was not just Mankind in and around the Israel, Egypt, Syria, Iraq Jordan and Turkey areas of Earth.

So its maybe possible that other Emissaries had been sent to other places too, and if we assume this, then maybe some Cultures Did-Kill their Emissaries or their Emissaries teachings were passed down.   This is one way i can try and look at HOW those other Star Maps dated after Period of Christ (AD) could have came to be.

"Engineers thinks that some small civilization with ancient path is sufficient for their purposes?"

This is one of the BIG QUESTIONS... discovering WHY the Engineers Created us (or whoever) and to WHAT END did they have in mind with the limited Knowledge they passed on.

When we look at Creation and Especially Intelligent Creation, then the various Myths and Religions all have some similar Reasons but also some Differing Reasons.

We can kind of also ask for WHY would Weyland Create David, and indeed even Ponder WHY would Mankind Create a AI Being.  Maybe in looking at WHY Mankind was created from Various Religions and Mythos and then looking at this Reasons in context to Davids Creation we can find a number of Matches.

I think the Question of WHY would you create a being in your likeness is a VERY Important Question, then to go on to ask WHAT are your intentions with your creation as the next Question... and then WHAT happens when your Creation does not turn out the way you intend or fit the purpose intended or does-not do what you intend.

This then could lead us to WHY you would want to Undo your Creation.  i do think if we ask these Questions in Regards to David and AI and the Dangers of this..  Then maybe we can Grasp the reasons behind the Engineers Reasons for Creation and then to want to Destroy it?

Great Find ;)

Certainly is possible that HR Giger had taken Inspiration from this and added it to his own Surreal Version of it.

I wonder if this implies the FLUTE is very Important ;)

Well i assume a FLUTE but maybe someone like HR Giger could interpret it as something else from them Carved Figurines LOL

"Holloway was an archeologist so he should have seen a lot of ancient tombs to recognize one when he sees it"

I think thats a good point and maybe i had jumped the GUN a little, i would say indeed as a Archeologist then Holloway would no doubt have came across Tombs before.  The Scene does hold some ambiguity as he is looking at the Altar and Crystal/Rock when he makes the "just another Tomb" comment before he shines his Torch onto the Mural.

The Prequels have a number of such ambiguous comments like this, where we could interpret this was aimed at the Mural and what lies beyond, or indeed it could be in regards to the Big Head Room alone.  But as i said before i feel a number of the dialog comments are there to grant us clues, and so i would have thought the comment was there to indicate something lies behind that Mural which is in effect likely just another DOOR.

Looking at Prometheus Again, it does appear via the Maps that it leads directly to another Passage Way... which leads to another Room However....  I think Pondering what lies behind that Mural/Door is something interesting as a reveal that it leads to NOTHING i feel would be a disappointment.

We have to perhaps look at what we see in the Big Head Room and that Altar and Mural and the only conclusions that make sense for what could be behind that MURAL/DOOR has to be either.

1) A Place where they Sacrificed Hosts to Produce the Deacon/Xenomorph related Organisms.

2) A Continuation of that were they Sacrifice the then Said Deacon/Xenomorph related Organisms to obtain whatever is in those Urns.

The Prometheus Re-write (Edit) i worked on would have shown a Glimpse of behind this MURAL were it would have had more Clear Murals/Frescoes but also housed like Cryo-Stasis Pods standing upwards as well as other Smaller more Spherical Pods showing us this Room was where they Stored Hosts and Face Hugger like Organisms. 

I think with Dallas what he discovered was something he certainly would have not been any expert on, and so his ASSUMPTIONS have seemed to be just that... However....

I think there is scope that the ONE he made could indeed be correct (The it looks like its grown out of the Chair) because this would help to airbrush over the Size difference of the Engineers and Space Jockey.

But i do agree that maybe there should be something more to it than that because indeed we was introduced to our Engineers in Prometheus, and teased the connection between them and the Space Jockey race... that certainly it set up Sequels to explore these SPACE JOCKEYS in more detail, yet the Sequel we got a Race of Engineers who were so much further away from the Space Jockey Clad Folk in Prometheus and killed off in a Flash Back that it seemed just a shame to BRUSH them under the Carpet.

So indeed they were NO GODS.... but the reveal in a Comment that those Folk where the Original Engineers, now makes the whole Creation Hierarchy a bit LAME and certainly that there is NO Godlike Beings, just Advanced Knowledge and those in Control of this become the GODS.

But we can only hope that it left the Door Open to wonder who Originally had all this Knowledge, and introduce us to something more Godlike than our Engineers.

Nice presentation. Makes me wonder how deep into history HR and other artists really dug and were inspired by different cultures for their art.

About casting of Bolaji Badejo as the xenomorph,  I think that's the hand of Eshu.

Holloway was an archeologist so he should have seen a lot of ancient tombs to recognize one when he sees it. A lot of lines were silly in Prometheus,  like the Martian piss one, but the one about another tomb came at a moment when what was being said should have had some significance, they were exploring the head room, with its mural and frescoes and the green crystal. It was like when the tomb of Tutankhamun was discovered. The entire scene and all that was said in that room, including the remark from Holloway, should have had the same weight as the remark from Dallas when he described the Space Jockey. 

Ridley Scott introduced in the 2 prequels some unused concepts from the time of the Alien, like the pyramid and a mural and eggs, now shown as a dome, a strange mural and the black goo urns. I think he used the engineers as a pretext because he stated the Space Jockey was a suit and he needed someone to wear the suit, if he planned a bigger role for them, then why finish them off in a flashback scene later? And the way he portrayed the engineers in Covenant,  were they truly that poor in spirit or this was just the way David saw them? They were no gods or godlike, that's for sure.

In both cases there is a strong phallic symbolic symbolism going on (for Eshu, the Trickster god see https://yagbeonilu.com/eshu-elegbara-aflakete/). So the similarities could be quite coincidental. In any case, for Giger sex goes hand in hand with death, which is not the case for African cultures.

Great find. Shape of the head and the big insect eyes reminds me of the early Giger design for the xenomorph.  He is also playing the flute, like his father (Ridley, you old trickster!).

Excellent research.

A sequel for Gladiator? That is a risky business as it will fail any comparison with the original. Maximus is dead, Commodus is dead, Marcus Aurelius is dead. There is nobody who can walk in their sandals. I want more movies from Ridley Scott but not Gladiator 2.

@BigDave

*They had became upset at what we had become (way we turned out) compared to how they intended us to.

*We killed Jesus (he was a Emissary sent to change our ways).

I know - these two points are perfectly combined with what I wrote. Engineers abandoned humans and then humans forget about their teachings. This is not humans blame - only Engineers.

@BigDave

The Time-Scale of which our Engineers visited us was more Frequent than 30'000 years.

In Prometheus (only one what was confirmed) Charley says what last star map what they find was created around ~30000 years ago. I don't speculate about Engineers visits 25000, 20k,... 5k, ~2k years ago. No. But They really go to Earth ~2000 years ago and look at humans, their civilization, behavior, achievements. Yes.

@BigDave

It appears we had started to behave in ways that went against their Teachings, and they would have sent down Emissaries

Well, why Engineers don't come as they are? Why they hiding? And teaching - there is can't be normal teaching if they hiding in myths. I think it's a bit far-fetched. They need come to humans with all their power and greatness.

@BigDave

This left the Engineers NO-CHOICE but to Eradicate Mankind before we became a Threat!

Yeah, very extreme reaction, right? And a great example to follow. Confirmed my words about bad teachers. And lazy - destruction is easy path. And proud - they believed that without their support, humanity does not evolve.

@BigDave

It is likely the later Star Maps were passed on by other Emissaries who lived within Civilizations who kept to a more basic Ancient Way of Living that was appeasing to their would be GODS, Civilizations who died out with their Emissaries as the World became Populated by the Corrupted Ways of Modern Man.

Good point. But no words about it in movies. Plus again - how they lose the "Corrupted Ways of Modern Man". Engineers thinks that some small civilization with ancient path is sufficient for their purposes?

It's all doesn't matter. As said Peter Wayland - try harder. Well, Engineers don't try harder.

I mean - it's interesting another look (or second bottom) on main question. I think what thoughts about bad humans, who went against Engineers teachings it's a bit already said many times. Need a different look... I lead to the fact that maybe Engineers was not so good as teachers.

Seems RS is very busy at the Moment and Foreseeable Future, in regards to a Conclusion to the Prequels, i see NO HARM in RS taking part in as many Projects as he can to SHOWCASE what he is capable of.  The more of his Projects that do well, the more Chance RS has of Persuading Disney that Concluding the Alien Prequels is the right thing to do.

But at the Moment i cant see any AC sequel being in the offering any time soon.

Its interesting Remark by Holloway but he is NO Expert, however the Dialog in the Movie is there to offer hints and so it could be that indeed behind the Mural could be another Tomb, this would mean that the Ampoule/Urn Room was a Tomb and we see it had the Big Head Statue which Fifield had questioned... is that GOD?

Its hard to tell IF that Door would have lead to any other such Tomb, looking at the MAP its hard to see it leading to anything but another Passage Way.

A = Big Head/Urn Rooms

B = The Center Part where Holloway takes off his Helmet

C = Passage way to the Juggernaught Hanger

So its hard to really see what lies behind it, i would speculate a Sacrificial Chamber as in my Re-write i did of Prometheus we get a Glimpse of this room and it is similar to the Star Beast Mural.  Its a Room that Humanoids are Sacrificed to incubate the Deacon.  But that was just my take on it all.

Its hard to connect to STARBEAST as so much has changed as far as what Prometheus Presented... but we can go by what Alien Engineers seemed to indicate which could be this WORLD was a place those Engineers had discovered a Organism similar to the Xenomorph (well its Ancestor) and they set up a Outpost to Experiment and Engineer new versions of this Organism.

The Time-Scale of which our Engineers visited us was more Frequent than 30'000 years.

They return at certain intervals and we Do-Not know their Agenda, but we do know that those who Visited us had came back to Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically and so its inferred that without the Engineers Visits and Knowledge we would just be as Cave-Men/Neanderthals

So its indicated that those Engineers who visited us had Shaped our Evolution, and our Advancement to a Civilization, and that our interactions with these Visitors had spawned the various Mythos and Religions. 

It appears we had started to behave in ways that went against their Teachings, and they would have sent down Emissaries who may be Hybrid Beings who were to Guide us back on Track, but most of the Civilizations on Earth had turned against those Emissaries and killed them.

This left the Engineers NO-CHOICE but to Eradicate Mankind before we became a Threat!  This attempted Mission was a FAILURE and in response maybe the Engineers decided to Abandon us, Foolishly thinking that without their Further Teachings and Interaction Mankind would NEVER Evolve past the Point that we was in the time of Antiquity.   HOW WRONG was they as we indeed Evolved on our own and the things we achieved by the year 2090 are exactly the things they FEARED

It is likely the later Star Maps were passed on by other Emissaries who lived within Civilizations who kept to a more basic Ancient Way of Living that was appeasing to their would be GODS, Civilizations who died out with their Emissaries as the World became Populated by the Corrupted Ways of Modern Man.

The Whole WHY the Engineers wanted to Destroy Mankind has been hinted at but still remains a little Ambiguous, in a Nutshell it was that it was indicated these Engineers Created us and they then at a Certain Period in Time had then decided to Eradicate us.  A few reasons had been hinted at.

*They had became upset at what we had become (way we turned out) compared to how they intended us to.

*They wanted to replace us with something else (sometimes to Create One Must First Destroy).

*We killed Jesus (he was a Emissary sent to change our ways).

These are the main conclusions you could come to from the Prequels, but it runs deeper than this and i think the BOTTOM LINE comes down to One of TWO things.

*They created a Creation that was too much in their Own Image, who was granted too much Knowledge and Free-will and became Sentient and Questioned the Reasons they should Obey our Creators every Whim and Command.  The Engineers Eradicated us out of Fear of what we could become.

*Similar to above but our Creators had Created/Evolved us without the Consent of their Hierarchy, and then they had then also Created/Came Across Something else they Aspired to and Worshiped as more Perfect and Attempted to Replace us with this.

The Whole Reason we was to be Destroyed really depends on Discovering WHY we was created... and i feel the Reasons for WHY we was created could be not far off the Reasons for WHY we created David...  and the Reasons for planing our Destruction would be similar to the Reasons WHY in Hindsight Mankind should Disable/abandon AI like David.

BigDave what do you make of Holloway's words that the head room was another tomb? With all the frescoes and mural and the urns it reminded me of an ancient Egyptian tomb. In this case could the altar be a sarcophagus? Was there a dead body (aside from the dead engineer) buried there? Was that actually a burial chamber belonging to a xenomorph? What if those engineers from LV223 were at first just passers-by,  like the Prometheus crew was later on? What if LV223 was the home planet of the Star Beast?

I think what we need to remember is the Prequels are showing us that there are certain WAYS of Life to Live, that are appeasing to the Ways of the Gods.  We have people on Earth who have adopted more Primitive Ways of Living to keep themselves as close to their Religion/Culture as possible.

The AMISH people are one Example, they live by the ways that their Culture/Religion interprets from the Source Material for their Culture (The Bible) choosing to live in a way that many had done before the Industrial Period and Period of what Civilization had changed to that could be consider at times to be against the Ways of God.

It could be those Engineers are living the same kind of existence to a degree, where the more Technologically Advanced Equipment and Ships are only used for a Certain Purpose for some Greater Cause.  But where as for most Day to Day Survival of their Species they Do-Not need such Advanced Technologies.  It could be that due to Trouble Caused by having such Advanced Technologies and being involved in what ever they had used such Technology for... they had decided to SHUN the Technology and Gains it would have accept in Rare Cases.

When CHAOS comes from the Evolution of Society and all the Corruption, the Deceit and Unlawful behavior, you can see some people would just live to imagine being WHISKED off to a Far Away Island to seek out and Live a more Basic Life of Peace and Harmony, this could be what those Engineers are doing.

We also have to consider they could be just as ADAM/EVE were in the Bible, and thats a Humanoid Creation who are Given a Land (Garden of Eden) where they are contained within the Walls of this Place, Watched over by Gods Cherubim Angels were maybe these beings Live Out their Lives sticking to the Rituals and Ways of their Forefathers or Hierarchy and that every now and again a few are selected to SEED Life on other Worlds in their Image. 

It does appear to have some-kind of Drill part to it, how does it EAT?  If we assume they require to Consume Food for Energy, then maybe we need to look at the ACID Blood and ask is ONLY the Blood Corrosive?

So looking at that design as far as the Mouth-parts go, who knows if the Organism uses this the same way a Mosquito uses its Proboscis to obtain Blood from a Organism.  The Xenomorph in Question could use that Drill-Part to Borrow into a Organism/Food Source and maybe Inject Saliva that has Acid Qualities to it, that then breaks down Body Matter so it can be sucked up by that Mouth-part.

Much like a Fly does ;)

@Thoughts_Dreams

I think the David as Creator as been something that has upset a lot of the Fanbase than it pleases, i can see where RS was coming from with how they had done this U-Turn.

First lets see in a Nutshell what the Xenomorph as a Threat Or Horror relates too, and what we could assume/gather from prior to the PREQUELS.

We are left the Iconic Space Jockey and Egg Cargo Scenes to Ponder from ALIEN, it had been highly indicated through the Franchise that the WY Company wanted to obtain the Xenomorph no matter what cost and its inferred they want to use it for some Military/Bio-Weapon Purpose (a Great Folly for a somewhat  Nefarious Agenda).  The Actual Purpose of the Egg Cargo in regards to the Space Jockey was NEVER explained, but in Interviews with Production Staff from the Franchise and in Particular Ridley Scott it was inferred to us that the EGG CARGO was some kind of Biological Warfare.

Considering what RS had said and the Agenda of the company to pursue the same ENDS, we have to consider the Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon and then have to Ponder HOW this came about and which way holds the Most Fear/Sinister of the Following.

1) The Eggs are some Natural Organism that the Space Jockey Race just use as a Bio-Weapon due to their Life Cycle and Destructive Survival instincts.   This would reveal the Space Jockey has having a somewhat Nefarious Agenda in doing this and the Xenomorph is just performing its Natural Survival Instincts.

2) The Space Jockey Race either Create the Xenomorph from Scratch or have Experimented/Evolved some other Life-Form to Produce their Bio-Weapons.  This is a more Nefarious Intention, and it could also imply maybe the Xenomorph is Engineered to Act how it does.

The Prequels (Prometheus) came along (inc Alien Engineers) and drawn us to Option 2 but they loosely expanded on the Reason for Creating such a MONSTER was to eradicate potential threats and unruly Creations. It was also loosely inferred that the Xenomorph could be used as a TOOL to wipe a Planet Clean.

At this point we see the Xenomorph is Relegated to being just a Engineered Bio-Weapon which makes the WHY as the most Important Question, especially as far as getting to any kind of Nefarious Agenda/Purpose.

Alien Engineers/Prometheus had implied to us the Engineers had Re-Engineered/Evolved something to Create a Organism that has the potential to be used a Bio-Weapon to Destroy Potential Threats.  It was more so implied to us that our Creators the Engineers had grown Angry at how we had turned out, and potentially saw NO-WAY back for us and must have been concerned of the THREAT we could pose.

The Cruelty behind the Xenomorph is thus, purely a form of Pest Control to use on Unsatisfactory Creations and Unruly/UN-Obedient Creations.  The ambiguous Nature of Prometheus also left it open to Ponder the Engineers were going to use Mankind as a means to allow for the Creation of Such Horrific Monsters... but it was more implied as a Eradication Tool.

So the WHY was that our Creators had witnessed how corrupt we had became as far as how we was supposed to have turned out and behaved and so we had became UNRULY and the Final Solution was to Destroy us by Creating a Organism that would be used as Biological Warfare upon us.

At some-point they (inc RS) felt that the WHY is a Big Question as the WHY is what holds potentially the most sinister revelation about our Xenomorphs that just go around killing people and using them to Gestate the Species.   They then felt that explore within the THEME of Prometheus that showed us Creation, Sub-Creation, allowing your Creation Too Much Freedom/Knowledge can lead to them becoming Rebellious.   And then felt by apply this to David as the next step on the Rebellious Creation Ladder and then Reveal that HE is the one who Creates the Xenomorph is a much more Sinister Reveal and Hubris.

And it is a much more SINISTER Plot... but its a Sinister/Nefarious Agenda, that only Elevates the Potential Danger and Hubris of Creating AI that becomes Sentient and Out of Control...  This is the Bigger Theme that Ridley Scott is taking that does not sit too well with Many.

While it takes the Sinister Actions the Engineers had planned and turns them on their heads to become more Sinister, it further RELEGATES the Xenomorph to being just a Bio-Weapon used to KILL stuff.... it makes more-so the Xenomorph Origins as Much Less ALIEN than any Fans would have wanted to see.

Especially Fans who had Envisioned finding a ALIEN World where the Xenomorphs inhabited and maybe even to some kind of Civilized Way.   At the very least it takes away the idea that the Space Jockey Race had came across some ALIEN Species on  ALIEN World and attempted to either USE them as Biological Warfare or Engineered Bio-Weapons from them..

I can see where RS was coming from... but i think there is a way to SWING it back around and fit with the THEMES of Prometheus which in part revolve around Creation and the Pursuit of Perfection.  Where we can ask WHY those Engineers on LV-223 made such Murals to that Creature in the Mural.... and if they was so FASCINATED by this, HOW would they feel if they encountered Davids Attempts to Perfect such a Creation.

HOW would the Engineers or those above the Engineers look at David to, can you imagine if they Witness that David is a more Perfect Version of their own Creations (Mankind) and that Davids creation is a more Perfect Version of what those LV-223 Engineers had attempted?

The Larger thing to consider is the Engineers are Genetic Gardeners, for them Creation, Evolution and Experiments in the seeking of Perfection is a LARGE part of who they are.   Imagine if they are Faced with the Creation that is DAVID and then his Xenomorphs... how impressed they would be and maybe they could see the PERFECTION in both of them.... but they are BOTH Not Truly Perfect... but a AMALGAMATION of both  Would be, and reveal the Pursuit of some other Engineers or Higher Race, attempting to combine the Near Perfection of David and his Xenomorph to Create the XENOMORPH in ALIEN?

I think something like this could yet be brought into play, and it would mean David is NOT the Final Creator of the Xenomorphs that end up on LV-426 but he plays the Middle Man Role.

Regarding Davids Xenomorph and its Raising of its Arms, i see this as a sign to show us that David is the Puppet Master and Creation of the Xenomorph.

Big Dave:

About Advent, I do not want that to be cannon since it implies that David made the Xeno. What is good is that it is just bonus material so it is not canon and if it is it could be changed so that David just made his own version which is something that I would prefer. Unfortunately Advent made Alien Covenant worse but if we ignore it that could still save the prequels from the Xeno being a monster made by a crazy robot no matter what, if Ridley would allow that or not is nothing that I am interested in. I do not want David to be responsible for the monster, that is just how I look at it.

I do not like the idea of the Xenos being domesticated because it would make them into less of a threat and would feel a little too much like AR. I just saw that you mentioned the New born in AR, and that is exactly my point because it didn't work either. The whole idea of taking away the wildness (or what ever the correct word might be) of the Xeno makes it lose its point I am afraid which is the main reason why I dislike the David raising the arms kind of thing with the Xeno in AC, to me that scene is ridiculous. Sorry for using such a harsh word for describing it but that is how it looks like to me.

I just wonder how it would be able to eat with a tongue like that. It doesn’t look very utilitarian but maybe that adds to the alien-ness of it.

Leto:

I agree that how they did the Engineers in Alien Covenant was lame. I imagined an advanced culture with science, military, buildings and so on... not how they were made in AC. My guess is that the studio thought that we as an audience were not interested in them after Prometheus so maybe they thought “get rid of them and focus on David”, which was the totally wrong response IMO.

Killing off Shaw was not a problem to me, she was annoying and naive. She was better in the Crossing (I think that was what the short clip before Covenant was titled) than in Prometheus by the way.

Having said this I am not interested in another Ripley movie. She has had four movies this far and we have had marines and so on so I can not see how they can make another exciting Ripley movie. At least the prequels have given us new characters that have been flat OK but at least they tried.

You like Alien Covenant? I think that it had mostly lame characters so I disagree.

Now, I was never very interested in another Ripley movie but what made me even more against it was to retcon (is that the word?) Alien 3, which is my favorite movie in the franchise and one of my favorites in general. Because of this I am totally OK that it never got made at least not with how they planned it. Having new characters that are well written would have been alright without writing out Alien 3 but having Ripley and Hicks back (and/or) Newt? No thanks

Let Scott direct and make landscapes and that but keep him far away from the story or else will get another fucking David movie.

@Leto

I dont think it was the case of RS destroying Blomkamps Project, its more a case of Blomkamp (guided by Miss Weaver) had attempted to Destroy/Undo the other Movies after ALIENS and undermine RS Prequel ideas.

Blomkamps ideas Originally never involved having to resurrect Hicks, Newt and Ripley.  I  think his ideas should be taken on board for another ALIEN movie but NOT have Ripley, Newt or Hicks in it at all, unless its SET after the events of ALIEN Resurrection which is where i think a ALIEN 5 should be set.

I agree we need to get back to the more Advanced Bio-Mechanical Technology Aspect of those Prometheus Engineers.

Back to the MURAL....

Contrary to what some interpret it Does-Not show a Xenomorph, it shows something related, and it was confirmed by some working on the Project that this was the DEACON and the Urns contained DEACON DNA in that under a set series of circumstances those Urns would Produce a Deacon.

The MURAL had No Traditional Face Huggers, it depicts the TWO other Face Hugger Concepts that HR Giger had made and so it was simply a Mural in Honor of HR Giger.  and in part is just a EASTER EGG but in part a Confirmation that this place (LV-223) is connected to the Xenomorph as far as Experimentation goes.

The Jesus like POSE is also interpreted as being a sign of GOD and Worship... the only Religion where the Cruciform Pose is recognized as GOD and Worship is Christianity based Faiths.   The REAL reason for this is to Remind People that it was via his SACRIFICE (God/Christ) that Humanity has been given a Chance of AFTERLIFE for those who Remember the Sacrifice he Gave as well as following the Gospels.

So the MURAL should be looked at something that requires SACRIFICE which means that it leads us to TWO things.

1) That in order to Create/Give Life to the Xenomorph/Deacon (and related) requires Sacrifice and so its shows us that the Organism is Birthed via the Sacrifice of its Host.  Which in Context to LV-223 and those Engineers must mean they Self Sacrifice to Produce these BEASTS and they intend to Sacrifice their Creation (Mankind) to give LIFE to the BEAST.

2) That the Black Goo in those Urns and Experiments relating from it, came from the Sacrifice of the Organism depicted in the Mural, or they had Experimented to obtain such a Organism and then Sacrificed it to obtain the DNA that is in those Urns.

Regardless of which... the Engineers Admire and have some Worship to the Creation of Such BEASTS

@ Freezerinos

I will try and make another reply to your last post, one that is more straight to the point.  One i may have already covered though.

Indeed the Xenomorph was a more Ancient Event, One which as of between 2011-2013 at very least Ridley Scott had envisioned to have taken place around (give or take Few Hundred Years) the time of the OUTBREAK on LV-223, the Xenomorph (while still being a bit ambiguous) was thus a either a Result of those Experiments/Black Goo on LV-223 or the Xenomorph was the Origin that lead to those Experiments/Black Goo on LV-223 (RS hinted at the prior)

RS had a U-Turn where they felt having the Xenomorph become Created by David as being a sign of Ultimate Hubris on behalf of the Engineers (for Creating us/allowing us too much Freedom and knowledge) and then Mankind Repeating the same error with Creating David.

This does lead to a few Problems as far as there is NO Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict (likely No Derelict) on LV-426 some 17-18 years prior to the Events of ALIEN... more so we can assume those Eggs Do-Not get on the Derelict before David arrives at Origae-6 which means that there are NO Eggs on the Derelict 10 years before the events of ALIEN

How can they address how the Derelict and Space Jockey looked like they had been there for a VERY long time?

*Employ some kind of Time-Travel Aspect, ideally as the result of a Destructive Force that Tears a Hole in Space/Time.

*Reveal that David does-not create the XENOMORPH but reveal he just creates his own VERSION.

*Leave things how they are going and the age of HOW-LONG the Space Jockey looks like its been there as just a Oversight.

I think Option 1 would be the best way forwards, but add running up to this that the Engineers Re-Engineer Davids Xenomorph.  But if they was allowed to continue with the Prequels i think we would just get Option 3 were the Assumption Dallas made about how old it looked like its been there and Fossilized are WRONG!  But his Assumption it looked like it Grew out the Chair  as being CORRECT.

I agree that going the David as Creator route is a ERROR in Hindsight but its something that can be fixed. By him being revealed as the Middle-Man so to speak.

I will add that indeed while PROMETHEUS did not give us those Answers to ALIEN, it was setting up something interesting but it just never GAVE the Answers some wanted or Xenomorphs... and NOW its a case of sometimes its be Careful what you WISH for because the Answers you get may NEVER live up to the expectations you would have hoped for.

I think this in part played a role in WHY they Toned down the Xenomorphs and Connection from Alien Engineers, thinking some things are better left to MYSTERY it appears that prior to 2013 their was NO WAY David was planned as the Creator, it appears between 2013-2014 they had the idea that David would Create Something Similar in that the Process of how he does this would give us clues to how the Original Xenomorph had came to be.  Then in 2015 it appears they thought while that was interesting would it not be more Shocking a Reveal if David actually Created the Original Xenomorph.

It was beautiful.

Well, if Ridley want filmed Alien movie without alien FOR THE GREAT STORY, of course. Why he destroying Blomkamp project? Movie special for people who want saw Alien movie with alien.

And more! The "original" Engineers - primeval caveman race who living in Stone Age? Seriously? Where biomechanical MEGAPOLICE? Where living hi-tech technologies, what we see in Prometheus? Where the great design of bodies? Like as great Engineers from Prometheus (yeah, they modified for living in space and another blahblahblah). Where all cool stuff, what peoples expecting see after Prometheus? Why they kill Show (repeat Alien3 mistake), by the way?

We have ONLY TWO original stuff - magic flying glowing rocks and neomorphs.

I love AC so much, and this is really cool movie and Xenomorph is one of the few things who made this movie cool.

Coming back to this a few weeks later. I still can't understand how Ridley, the man who was obviously one of the main cogs in creating this "Alien" universe, made such a mess of this story line from "Alien" to "Alien: Covenant". I enjoy all of the movies on their own (Except the 4th...trash). Loved the transition from 1 to 2 even to 3, even find myself watching the AvP's way more than I should. Then came Prometheus, and as we all know the narrative took a 90 degree turn. At first, I thought it was crap to be honest. But being such a huge fan of the franchise, I stuck with it and now view it as a highly underrated film. It took balls to go in the direction that film went, and only Ridley could have pulled it off at that point in time (Damon needs a ton of credit as well). Prometheus should and could have been a catalyst into an awesome "Alien" narrative, but Ridley succumbed to Xeno fanboys who complained how there were not any in the film. And boom, Alien: Covenant. The film standing on it's own was pretty good. In the "Alien" arc, a total disaster. Oh what could have been. 

Absolutely BigDave!

I'd go with ghostly translucent human types...extremely intelligent. Earthlings would be ants to them. They use mind control. BUT on a scientific level. Engineers were there children and we are the Engineers children. 

We are the result of inbreeding aliens.

I might try to sketch something.....