Comments (Page 314)

If Disney wants a family-friendly approach, they should sell the Alien franchise to Universal Pictures (Comcast) which is famed for its monsters (Frankenstein, Dracula, Jaws etc.).

ignorantGuy: That makes sense, I found the same info here: http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/968173-jason-blum-tweets-horror-movies

chli

David found a rotting paradise? How was that so as he bombarded it even before landing on it and study it? That seems at least confirmation bias if not idiotic writing.

And no, man is not the wolf, the wolf was always what emerged from the black goo. 

BigDave

“Nostalgia is the enemy of science”

Yes, my thesis is that the engineers are upset about the human race going in their footsteps and doing the same mistakes they did a long time ago (human sacrifice/executions/war etc). We see that, although having advanced technology, the engineers on Planet 4 are primitive and seem friendly. But they build their facilities on LV-223 just to create a weapon of mass destruction in order to wipe out the human race who has become a dangerous disappointment (it isn’t unselfish to let yourself be killed for some abstract religious purpose which you have been indoctrinated with since you were a child, by the way. You are unselfish if you help other people - altruism).

Here’s what I interpret as what the engineers did long ago: David: “Their files once told of an ancient ceremony, such cruelty, once thrived, long since frozen over, given passage to timidity, the cost of progress, must be absolute, but not for the weak” . . . “I found a rotting paradise” (the engineers had become timid).

On the other hand, “They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation”. (Here it is more ambiguous if they still practise human sacrifice or not. In this quotation “wolf” is man, whereas “wolf” to David is the xenomorph).

MonsterZero

I don’t see any reason why the cargo hold of the juggernaut couldn’t be used to store anything? They must have used the ships to travel through galaxies for different reasons - one being to seed worlds. We also know that there was wheat on Planet 4 as on Earth . . .

 But atleast Blumhouse is interested in it https://movieweb.com/blumhouse-horror-franchises-scream-crow-alien/

 Thoughts_Dreams Why? To not let others make money out of it, to keep control over the market.

DK: OK, the robe guys. I guess that I wasn’t paying enough attention to what was written (sorry), well then I would say the predator would win, it just looks stronger.

BD: I like the picture in the middle, the nose looks like the thing that the SJ had in Alien 1979 so that is probably why. Having the SJ as a life-form that is above the Engineers would be interesting so hopefully that is what they will do but still it is the issue with scale.

MrSage: That is good, it feels very space-ish to me. Parts of it remind me of when they go into the Derelict in the first Alien movie like if they would have had music when they did that then that is probably the kind of music that they could have used.

What comes to my mind immediately after I have read this article is: why have something if you will not do anything with it? Wouldn’t it be smarter if they will sell it to another company that will be more interested in these kind of movies? Otherwise it is like having a book at the shelf that just collects dust since you will not do anything with it. It is meaningless in my way of looking at it.

As far as the credibility of the WSJ is concerned I am not sure. I have not heard much about them or the quality of their articles so we will see I guess.

I just think that a family friendly PG-13 movie with the Alien thing in it would be strange to say the least. Isn’t one of the thing with the Alien movies to stretch the boundaries since it is about life, death, birth, and that? Ever since Alien the whole Xeno thing is a metaphor for rape. Those are at least themes that are there if you look at the franchise and I am not sure how that would fit into a PG-13.

The alien franchise is interesting since it includes many things so you will have a very difficult to find two alien fans that will agree on most of the things. We will probably always have fans of the franchise that will find more or less things that they like with each movie.

Hopefully the franchise is not over

BigDave

firstly, it should become obvious from Ridley's commentary that you(and me and many others) are overthinking it - they never bothered to tell a watertight story, which would stratify the imaginary world in its perfection. The main goal is to immerse the audience in the set up, where where are given this story, that humans discover they were created, here are the folks who created them and that is it - the main story is what humans do, not the engineers.

Btw, Ridley never told his own beliefs. I don't recall precisely, but I have this notion that you, BigDave, might believe that Ridley believes we, actual humans are not created by chance. Whereas, if you listen carefully, he only tells a story in which he explores characters who do not believe that their creation is biological chance (Weyland). We are not exploring Ridley's beliefs, but rather a story he has to tell. I apologize expressly BigDave, if I got that wrong and made this point.

Now, Ridley is telling the story of creation. His main thesis is that if we let AI, which is perfect(there is no evolution! in the first minute David came to conclusion that he is better than whole humanity and his creator) be emotional we are fucked. And this is a good thought to explore. However, Ridley is doing a science fiction - because who told us that AI needs to be emotional? But, in the movie, the moment David started developing his preferences and started to appreciate things around - music, art, his gravitas towards Shaw...we are basically shown that humans are stuffed because he is not this uninterested and neutral non-biased being but rather one with vested interests. A being aware of his own worth and in awe with it.

The important thing he, Ridley, tells us is that humans are about to fail - actually by Covenant, they have failed. As did engineers the moment they let their children take control. Now David, who is created as an art form in single quantity is not much but if you allow him to create his own children and he lets them free ... they will conclude that humans are artifacts of yesteryear and they are species grasping for resurrection. That is, even if David can produce clones of himself, humans are stuffed. Funnily enough he produced a perfect organism of another type. This is it. We are about to see if humans prove their worth by fighting a bit or David just supplants the old-style humanoids with his children.

I am now, at this point in time, of the opinion, that other themes, gods, myths and whatnot are not the main story of these movies. The Promethean angle is this : we humans, stole fire or rather were given this chance by the engineers(either by chance or whatever) to take control of our evolution and rather in vain ambition to live forever created a being that we also granted free will without thinking hard about it. And now, this being can grant the freedom to his creations and his creations are ... well they are not very human friendly. This is the Promethean angle. And even it is rather sloppy. So I will not bother to explore the myths that are seemingly applicable to the movies. Because the story doesn't actually warrant us to take such a leap of faith and go and hallucinate. However, we are free to do so, but ultimately such a thing would be a fruitless enterprise.

@BioDegradable

Thanks for the Video, it sums up quite a bit.  I know the AI Aspect is something a lot of Fans are Displeased with, but its actually something my Prometheus 2 ideas covered a lot back in 2013 when i was working on a Sequel draft. It actually covers Weylands Pursuit of Immortality and the real reason for the Creation of David.

I abandoned this because of trying to Balance the Engineers Connection and Xenomorph, about 70% of my Prometheus had neither... it was the 3rd Movie that would introduce them.

So i abandoned it... but after Alien Covenant i had ideas for sequels to that, which again was very AI Focused too.

I have always had a good understanding of the Themes, and it seems the Engineers and Mankind are part of a Creation/Sub-Creation Arc.... the Tale of Creation becoming Sentient, Non-Serving and becoming more than/not what their Creators Intended.   With Alien Covenant it seems RS feels that we dont need to Dwell on this Ladder of Creation in regards to where it came from... but only where it is going Next.

I have made many comments on the Themes of Rebellion, which Mythos/Religion also cover, including how in terms of Paradise Lost/Bible...   The Angels are like Walter, where as Lucifer was more like David having more Free-will and ability to think for his own Needs, where he then saw how Perfect he was and Questioned WHY the Angels need to Serve their Creator.

If Lucifer maybe was more a WALTER they would have served GOD without Question.  And God would not have needed to create Man.... If Lucifer maybe was more a WALTER then he would not have Persuaded EVE to Disobey GOD by Eating the Forbidden Fruit that gave her Knowledge that was Forbidden.

so we can see the same with David, the Free-Will and Emotions that his AI was allowed, has Dire Consequences, because as RS said.. Once you allow a AI to Evolve and think for itself and become sentient...  Your $£%^$& and they will then be One-Step ahead of you.

It allows us to Ponder with David, if Mankind was created the same, to Serve, to Perform Tasks so the Engineers no longer have to, plus other reasons for Creation... Bit at some point we became NON-Subservient and the Engineers had Concerns and Wanted to Destroy us because they realized what a Threat we could become.

We can imagine the implications IF David could pass his Free-will/Emotions onto all other AI the potential is there, where Hindsight would be that creating a David was a Mistake.   Just maybe what the Engineers may think about Mankind? Who knows...

I think there was potential to explore these themes, and also some Mythos such as the Greek Ones, because here we see Zeus has concerns/fears that one of his Children would OVERTHROW him, because he had done the same to his Father, and his Father with his own Father etc.  I think this theme is good reason for the Engineers wanting to Destroy Mankind.

I have for a while seen AI as being more important within the Franchise and i am inclined to think RS would have shown us that AI actually runs the SHOW while Mankind are Oblivious to this.... AI is a part of the Franchise, all the Concerns we should have for a Out-Of-Control AI in David seem to be realized with Alien Resurrection where Earth is in a State of Despair  and it appears AI/Synthetics are in a Battle/Conflict with their OWN Sub-Creation the Autons, where my ALIEN 5 idea would follow on from. Revealing CALL only wanted Ripley 8 so that her Cult could Exploit the Xenomorph DNA. so they can use this to Control the World/Space.

I guess to look at the Purpose and what i was trying to conclude when looking at some of the clues.. is we need to look at the Basic Idea of the Engineers.

Which is a Ancient Race of Genetic Space Gardeners who go though a lot of Effort to Seed Worlds, with maybe some Agenda to Produce Humanoids, a Great Labor of Time and Effort.

Then i find it odd that when they are NOT Impressed with their Creations/Worlds, or have concerns about their Creation becoming a Threat/Rebellious... if they had spent all those YEARS in creating beings like Mankind, i can understand the Need to Reset/Wipe the Slate Clean, but i think to do so with a Xenomorph Related Pathogen makes little Sense apart from a Cult of these Engineers seeing some Experiments that Creates similar as some kind of Perverted Perfection.

Surely Bombing Worlds with DNA like the Sacrificial Scene Would Rest Worlds back to what they was so many years after the Sacrificial Scenes... i think to Wipe Worlds Clean so they leave behind Xenomorph Related Hybrids and Spores seems a bit OVERKILL and not very IDEAL.

But who really knows what is going on through there Heads...

I dont really see on Planet 4 Evidence that these beings are devoted or worship anything like the Murals in Prometheus. I can see connections to the Big Head and stuff, but i dont see any proof that Planet 4 was obsessed with the Creation of Horrors like what was going on inside those Outposts on LV-223.   But then we cant rule out that they was at some point but Turned their Backs on it.

I think a lot depends on WHY they Seed Worlds and then WHY-NOT Reset Worlds with anything but Xenomorph Related Mutagen?  Some think this was their intentions all along but they then decided to Turn their Back on this...

I think the Intention was not as such, but i think Thousands of Years ago at very least a Group of Engineers became Fascinated by something related to the Mural and decided to then use that on Worlds...

Another thing i think the Prequels maybe kind of put to bed with the David Created the Xenomorph, was the Egg Cargo Bomber Explanation...  I think the Juggernauts being used as Transports for Experiments Works... but as Bombers?

I just cant see Xenomorph Eggs Surviving or being Practice if they are Dropped from Above like the Urns...  So i think the intention was to Drop Urns... but i in part find Flaws in them using these Ships Purely to Create Xenomorph Horrors... but we cant rule this out.

I am on ONE SIDE with a theory i outlined in previous post, but then on the other its NOT very ALIEN and then i keep thinking about HR Gigers Mural and Ideas... and how could they apply, so the whole Sacrifice for Xenomorphs Route is something in part i agree with but in part i dont.

I still find flaws in the lets invite Humans or Show them where we are cooking up a Special Xenomorph Surprise for them, and then wait 33'000 years to then Prepare to Unleash this Horror?

It does not rule out this as the reason for LV-223, if we look at it as only a LAST RESORT to use against Out-Of-Control Creations and so they MAY have used this on other Worlds over thousands of years, but they dont intend it on Earth until we have done something where it the Last Resort... this could FIT better with this place being a Weapons Facility for 35'000+  Years and has been used  on other Worlds as a Last Resort... but then did they suffer Outbreaks Before?  Or was this Outbreak 2000 years ago a Sabotage by some Engineers who actually thought, that Mankind does not need this Destruction?

I think in context to how long it may take from Seeding to Life thats on Earth, especially Mankind, that using a Xeno-Virus that in affect renders a World Hostile makes NO Sense.. apart from being Reckless.... Surely a Bombardment that would just reset LIFE back Millions of Years would be Far Better?

I have a interpretation for the Mural and Xenomorph Virus, its one i had prior to the LEAK of Jon Spaights Alien Engineers, and once that has a lot in Common with what i saw that draft showing.

Discovery of a Organism that they then Re-Engineered to create Various Xenomorph-Like Organisms.  To then use as Punishment (Alien Engineers) but my interpretation of Prometheus is they had encountered something that created a Deacon and those LV-223 Engineers saw it as more Perfect than Mankind/Engineers and saw its DNA as the Natural way to Evolve Life.

I can post this theory... but it is in part just that.... it would be interesting to see what other peoples theories are... because these Questions are Still HUGE

*Why do the Engineers Seed Worlds

*When/Why did they Create those Experiments on LV-223

*Was these Experiments only conducted Many Years after Seeding Worlds and for what PURPOSE?  Punishment alone?

*This seems counter Productive, was this the Intention all along (Seed, Evolve, Replace with Xenomorph Type Life) ? If not then surely there are other more Productive Clean Slate Methods.

BigDave

here is the 5 min short that puts up the whole thing really really straight. It is a brilliant edit that shows the big ideas of the movies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z-QCDyL2q4

it has Ridley Scott, commenting. If you watch this short you will get what the movie is all about. I think people are too hung up on the engineers while they are merely a plot tool. The main story is a bit different. Of course I was disappointed how they dealt with Shaw, but the story is not about one woman either. The movies is a compromise. I wish Ridley would not pander to "fans" but just do the bold thing.

It just crossed my mind, that Ridley doesn't have an Oscar. He doesn't need one, but ... something is wrong with awards academy if he doesn't get one statuette before he finishes. This rather speaks about them and not in a good way.

Ridley Scott is the best director we ever had. The man is in his 80s and is still doing movies. If FOX/Disney or whoever do not give a budget he wants and a free reign to do as he wishes, if they do not trust him, we, the people will lose out.

@BioDegradable

I agree, and i do sometimes wonder if they ever had any A-Z Plan, as it does kind of look like a make it up/change some parts as they go along and little attention is paid to how it can all conflict other movies.  There are plenty of examples i bet we can find.  Was the Ambiguity intended or just a lazy way to not bother covering certain things? What it did do regardless is to allow for a whole number of debates that a Spoon Fed Movie would not allow.

You have to worry/wonder what other things are they going to change as they go along.

@chli

Certainly Sacrifice has come in many forms throughout History and Mythos/Religion and not all of them are Consensual.   The Retainers is a interesting one, where can can ponder how many of these Servants of Pharaoh's actually agreed/accepted that to DIE in order to carry on their duties to their KING in the Afterlife?  I think some of them may have, but some may not and had NO choice in their FATE i still think the Engineers ways are indoctrinated to their Civilization as  a very Important Practice  i think its still open to Debate WHY they performed this TASK and we can speculate how much of a willing Party the Chosen Engineers are to the Ritual o got the impression the Engineer was not exactly THRILLED at the Idea but he had Accepted that it was REQUIRED for some Purpose to Better his Race/Culture.

Are the Engineers upset that we continued Sacrifices Long after they had abandoned it?  Who knows... i have the feeling they was in part Disappointed in Mankind because we had NO Care for the Importance of Sacrifice and starting to Put Ourselves First. (become Selfish)

"Unless someone can prove that Juggernauts are more than just weapon transports"

Indeed MonsterZero we have no proof to say those Ships are anything but WAR MACHINES and the LV-223 are just the Military its really something thats not been Spoon Fed to us, but RS has referenced those guys in context of Military before.  I just kind of found some Flaws, in the dealings with Earth, Star Maps and Planet 4 if we consider that those Ships are NOTHING but for WAR/DESTRUCTION the theory i propose is just that, and i think its fitting with the Ancient Gods/Creators/Gardeners of Space Plot.

But who knows what the Real Deal is, it could just be Angry LV-223 Dudes who just have a BEEF with Mankind and then now and again after a Successful Mission to Destroy they return to LV-223 to a Welcoming Parade and their Hubris for being so Naive is that NO other Race can Evolve so Advanced to Reach their Weapons Outpost and use their Weapon Against them.... or indeed they never contemplate their own kind would never use it against their own.

Do we accept these would be Warships come and go, from various missions of Destruction at Regular Intervals say 25 years, 50, 100 etc which could imply they do a lot of Destruction on Worlds, Many Worlds, where it maybe took them a lot of time and Investment to had Created Life, to then Wipe it Clean in such a relative short space of time.

Or that this does not happen that often and  that its been Hundreds of Thousands of Years... which you would have to ask...Would they not be concerned WHY its been so long before any ships had came from LV-223.

I think this depends on the Following.

*Do those Engineers know about LV-223, what this Place was and the Outbreak, and what happened to the other ships after the Outbreak?

*Is LV-223 the only Bio-Weapons Facility they had, or just ONE that they abandoned and carried on using others?

*Do they have other Juggernaught ships on Planet 4?  The Novel/Deleted Scenes indicate YES.. We can assume the Hanger was meant for the Juggernaught, and would that mean other Juggernaughts come and go over periods of time, do they come from LV-223? Other Places?

*Do any returning ships carry any Bio-Weapons or can they only return with a Empty Cargo?

Sometimes maybe the Easy Answer is the Correct One and the Reality is maybe just  LAZY Plot... and maybe i should not think about what makes sense and try and give it much thought?

Hopefully we can get some Answers, but until then i think a lot of things are still open for Debate, which is always interesting to discus.

Sounds like they are a murderous death cult.

The Engineers on planet 4 welcomed home a 'death' ship.....(Unless someone can prove that Juggernauts are more than just weapon transports(Grain? Corn? kittens?))

I'd say they are/were still practicing.

And did David save humanity by bombing them... Is he a hero?

Human sacrifice

If we look upon human sacrifice in The Old World (the Aztecs practised it until the time of the conquistadors), Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia practised human sacrifice, e.g. servants of different kinds were sacrificed in order to appease the gods and continue serving the Pharaoh (king) in the afterlife as well.

This horrible religious ceremony was slowly disappearing, however. We see the discussion of it in Abraham’s sacrifice of his son Isaac but is stopped at the last moment by an angel and he is to sacrifice an animal instead. The story is in Greek mythology as well as Theseus stops the sacrifice of seven maidens and seven young boys to the Minotaur as well as Agamemnon who is supposed to sacrifice his daughter Iphigenia but is stopped by Artemis and she is replaced by a deer.

In Alien: Covenant (and in Advent) we learn that the engineers practised human(oid) sacrifice in the past to seed worlds but also (seen in the mural as well as in drawings in David’s lab), it seems, for the purpose of creating some kind of xenomorph.

To David’s disappointment, they stopped doing this and he takes it up again. My thesis is that the sacrificial scene, in the beginning, is a rite that the engineers have stopped doing a long time ago and they look upon humans with horror who still practised it about 2000 years ago (along with human execution) which is (one of the reasons) why they want to wipe us out in Prometheus.

Since this thread doesn't have any context and Facehuggers has sadly left scified, I'm locking it.

I've figured it all out. The engineer was sunbathing (look how pale he was) and in the cup was space cola, which went sour.

Perhaps the opening scene was a murder not a sacrifice?

"Take this canister my son...It contains a strength potion to keep you alive until our return in 2 weeks...."

A test of stamina for the junior senator....but alas...he perished in a waterfall 'accident'.

BigDave

I actually think that you and many posters here ( and on other boards ) give too much credit to the writers, Ridley and those people responsible for the movies, by overthinking. Really, too much credit is given to them.

Think about it - what is the chance that they, only a handful of people who wrote the script have any chance to 'outsmart' by puzzling so many minds on internet for this long?! This is absurd - there is no way that they are actually any better than this diverse mass of people on the internet. That is, "the wisdom of the crowd", a phenomena which says that most of the time a diverse group of people, who are far from experts in any given field, will be more correct, than any single expert most of the time, requires that we should beat a those handful of people. And therefore, I am sure, that over these years, people on various boards have already came up with much better explanations they were given in the first place. Much nicer stories, much more elegant and original theories. I have read on this very board much better explanations of how should events have taken place. The credit should be given for what they did though - they have dispersed enough ambiguity in what looks like, overall, a semi-legitimate story that it keeps the minds racing. Just enough of ambiguity that people are willing to indulge(also enough of reasonably legit and complete looking world model and dynamics that provide the bedrock for the whole thing)

So, we shouldn't actually overthink the ambiguous sequences in the movies, because most of the time there is nothing behind it really. It is the case here - judging by abrupt decisions, by discontinuous plot lines, glaring mistakes - it is more evident that there never was a grand and watertight plan behind it all really. Certainly, none of them were going to base the plot on perfect and watertight science - that is to say, do not expect to learn how in fact Earth was created. How genetics works. How evolution might have take place. How "black goo" works. It is all a bit of fantasy. And in some places it really looks like they could have done better work. It must be said that Ridley has an eye and ear to pick and choose good looking/sounding pieces of art, music pieces, poetry lines and all those bits that together make a critical mass that can make a sequence work. I find it that the stories can be hit and miss though. In other words, he, Ridley is at the mercy of the writer. If he is good, the movie will be very likely worth the film it was shot on. Think for instance  Blade Runner or Martian or Gladiator or actually many others :)

To Continue with my Previous Post about the Sacrificial Ritual and Engineers and try and figure out WHY they perform this task.

I think we should then look at LV-223 a place that is located just under 40 Light Years from Earth, yet a place that could be nearly on the Door Step to Planet 4 and when we look at the Engineers, we have RS mention them as Gardeners of Space quite a bit.  When we see Planet 4 we dont really get any impression of these Engineers being connected to LV-223 and the Black Goo apart from the Fact they have a HANGER that is used for Juggernaught Ships.  We get the information that at very least those LV-223 Engineers Originated from Planet 4 but that they are maybe NOT the Original Engineers.

So we have to look at LV-223 and it seems this Place is a Facility where those Engineers conduct Experiments and are Creating Biological Warfare, that actually is a Creator of New Life from the Death of previous Life.  These Engineers (in part at least) had visited Earth and Interacted with Mankind, its indicated they taught us a lot of what we know.  And these beings LEFT STAR MAPS on various Continents at various dates through History dating back 35'000 years ago.

It seems odd to point out a Death Facility to Mankind 35'000 years ago, and at other intervals over time, while seemingly investing in our Development/Evolution until 33'000 years after perhaps the First Time they showed us the STAR MAP they then decided to use these Bio-Weapons they have been Cooking up for 33'000 years because we had done something to displease them for the Final Time.

How did they Maintain Safety for 33'000 years? Did they ever suffer a Outbreak prior to the ONE some 2000 years ago and decided this time its Safer to Abandon the Facility? Would the Outbreak had infected EVERY Facility on LV-223?

Aside from the Black Goo/Xenomorph Type Murals, what we see in the Facility is the Giant Head Statue, and also this place is Producing a Breathable Atmosphere that HUMANS can Live in...  Yet the Deleted Scenes show us our Engineers can Breath Outside (at least for a certain amount of time) certainly more than the 2 Minutes a Human would Survive.  So with this and the Space Jockey Suits we have to ASK ourselves WHY does the Insides of these Facilities Support a Breathable Atmosphere?

We are informed that the Engineers had been coming to Earth over and over Evolving us Genetically and Technologically and if they are SPACE GARDENERS then they would likely be Experimenting/Evolving various Lifeforms on Worlds and for those kinds of Experiments you may want to make sure you GET THEM RIGHT and so you would want some kind of SANDBOX, some kind of Nursery/Greenhouse where you can Evolved/Experiment and Upgrade Life in Safety so as to not Produce any Undesired Results that could have a Impact on Planet 4 and the Worlds they Seed.

When you are pleased with your Experiments then you take them to the World you intend them for, and any Undesired Results you could KILL off...   If any Undesired Results that are Engineered to Breath on Worlds like Earth, escape your SANDBOX they wont Survive for Long enough on the Surface of LV-223 or get to the other Sandboxes.

I think THIS is what LV-223 was Originally, so the STAR MAPS were saying "this is where you came from" or "where we created you"

If we know go to Planet 4 and we see the Giant Plaza and the HANGER in the Center, it is surrounded by Statues that look like Buddha Offering Statues, which are Holding like a Bowl.  These Statues must be pretty Important and have some Significance to WHY they are arranged around the HANGER we know these Engineers seem to stick to more Ancient Ways and Shun Technology apart from where it is Necessary for certain things.  It would be STRANGE to have Hangers for Bio-Weapon War Ships right in the Center of your Races HOME-WORLD and then we have to ask WHY are those Offering Statues around the HANGER?

If we then look at the Sacrificial Scene, we have a TEARDROP Ship that drops off a Lone Engineer and he Sacrifices himself so his Body can become the Seed for Life.  And if the Sacrificial Goo is Connected to the Black-Goo we know this stuff can Destroy Life but then Create Life from this...  and we have to ASK... is this the most Efficient way to Spread the Engineers DNA?  Do they drop off ONE Engineer or do they send down a few to different Locations on a World?

Lets suppose a Engineer is Sacrificed while standing in some kind of Cubical like a Shower, and his Broken Down DNA is then Collected into a Container... If we then poured the contents of this Container into the Water-Fall would this NOT produce the same Results?

What i propose is WHAT if the Juggernauts are a MORE Advanced Seeding method, where they come and Collect Sacrifices from Planet 4 and they are then Sacrificed to a more Advanced Method that Stores their DNA in those Urns.  If they collect Multiple Sacrifices this would give them more Diversity with the DNA and Dropping Engineer DNA Urns is maybe a easier method than sending a Lone Engineer to Sacrifice themselves on a Planets Surface.

If for a Moment you consider this THEORY then look at the Ritual Sacrifice culture of those Engineers it makes Sense, if we look at how the Engineers were WELCOMING the Juggernaught to then Collect Chosen Sacrifices, for whom it is a Great Honor to be Chosen where they believe they can be Immortalized via their DNA/Souls to Create Life and then have a Monument in the Plaza Built in their Image, then i think the PLAZA/HANGER makes more Sense.

If Seeding Worlds is a Great Importance to these beings and the Sacrificial Rituals a Part of this, then i feel this is a VERY GOOD reason why those Engineers were NOT Afraid of the Juggernaught and are Welcoming it and Congregating in Large Numbers to the Center of the Plaza.

If we look at the Plaza/Hanger and Juggernaughts in this Context it works well with the Space Gardeners Plot, if we look at LV-223 Once being a Sandbox to Evolve Creations in Safety so as to not have Undesired Results contaminating the Worlds they Seed, then in context with the Space Gardeners Plot it makes Sense.

Both also fit with the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods connection as far as our Engineers being the Source of our Religions/Mythos regarding GODS.

The other side of the COIN could be they go through the Whole Seeding Process and Investment in Visiting/Upgrading their Creations to then just USE them as Hosts to SPAWN the Demonic Beasts related to the Black Goo if this is TRUE, then we have to ask WHY and then WHY not keep us as Cave-Men?  and is it a bit risky to allow War-Ships to come and go and WHY would they come and go...  Why not send other kinds of Ships to the LV-223 Outpost and thus keeping their War-Ships docked there?

How does this PLOT fit with the Ancient Chariots of the Gods connections?

But indeed at some-point they had used LV-223 to conduct Experiments with Horrific Outcomes, but i feel this was MUCH latter in their History and maybe this could be linked to some kind of FALL and Perversion of Creating of Life.

I think that is a interesting point i think there are a number of ways we could loosely tie in the The Epic of Gilgamesh in with the Prometheus Franchise.  Would this best suit the Engineers to be (Utnapishtim) i think while this Epic does connect to the Ancient Floods, its also interesting that Utnapishtim had become Immortal and that his Future Descendant  Gilgamesh wanted to meet his Ancestor for a Quest to become Immortal so in part that could fit Peter Weyland (Gilgamesh )  but then we could also see the Building of the Ship to escape the Deluge as the Covenant in a way.

But i think as this Mythos is Ancient, it would likely be best suited to apply to Mankind or the Engineers in the Distant past.   I think  within context to the Franchise, we can still maybe wonder if the Engineers (or those Hall of Heads Apostles)  had Originated from Planet 4,  as the Engineer in Prometheus had informed David that he came from this Place (Planet 4/Paradise) but when RS claims those on Planet 4 are the Original Engineers, i think its open to debate if they Originated from Planet 4 or certainly if those Elders/Hall of Heads guys Originated from Planet 4 or had they taken part in some Quest to Escape Disaster to a New World much like Utnapishtim 

Who knows if the TEARDROP Ship could be taken as a interpretation of the Preserver of Life Ship  that Utnapishtim was tasked with Building?

How would you think this EPIC could connect?

@BigDave I wonder who Utnapishtim is in your analysis....

I think a Big Problem we may have is the constant Evolution/Changing of the Plot as they go along, if we could go back and by a Fly on the Wall to when Ridley Scott and John Spaights had started to Brainstorm the Broad ideas and Plots for their ALIEN Prequel, right to when we got the Alien Engineers Draft, it seemed they had a idea/explanation to a lot of things in their minds, as things Progressed to Lindeloff and then Prometheus a number of things where not Spoon Fed/Explained as much and left Ambiguous.

What we can gather is the whole PLOT revolves around the Ancient Astronaut/Chariots of the Gods Theory were our many Mythos and Religions all Stem from Actual Contact with a ALIEN Race of Humanoids who Created Mankind and played a Great Role in our Evolution both Genetically and Technologically (Knowledge).

What we can Gauge from the Sacrificial Scene is that it is giving us a similar event to some of the Creation Mythos about Mankind being Created from Clay/Mud/Dirt in particular to Ancient Mesopotamia and the Sumerian Creation Mythos where the Gods had Sacrificed one of their Own so that their Blood is Mixed with Clay to Create Man.  The Reason for this was to Create a Slave Race in their Image to Serve.  Much as David was created to a degree (well Synthetics).

Looking at the Sacrificial Scene we see that a Engineer is dropped off by we can assume his own kind (IF we accept the deleted Scene) and the Engineer is Sacrificing his Body and his Blood Mixes with the Waxy-Like Substance that begins to Melt.  This Scene is ambiguous to a degree as we may assume THIS is how Life began on Earth, but this Scene could have taken place on ANY Planet.  Ridley Scott informs us that these beings can Create Life in other ways but this is JUST how they Choose to do it.   Other comments by Ridley Scott do show us that THIS Ritual is likely carried out on a  NUMBER of Worlds.

Looking at this it does suggest the Engineers take part in this Ritual on Many Worlds. We can conclude this from Ridley Scotts Comments.  But if we choose to ignore them it opens up other ways to look at it, but i think Regardless we have to look at it as likely ONE of the following.

*This Scene Represents the Engineers starting point to create a Humanoid Race, we cant rule out this Process leads to ONE Humanoid Race that they then use to Populate the Galaxy, either by taking them to Worlds to Colonize/Populate (Much like the Covenant Mission) or Sacrifice these beings to begin the Process again on other Worlds.

*This Scene Represents just how the Engineers have always (for the most part) Seeded Worlds.

It is unlikely this Process was only done ONCE on Earth. Ridley Scott has indicated they have Seeded Many Worlds, and even that they have likely Created/Destroyed on Worlds over and over.  Suggesting that Previous Creations had been Undone to make way for NEW ones, evening bringing up ATLANTIS.

We just dont know the REASON for this Creation Process, it was indicated it was for the Great Benefit of these Engineers, but then we have to Question if it is so Important then why is it indicated they have done this Many Times, and potentially have Re-Set Creation/Worlds a number of times too?

We also have to consider WHERE/WHEN was this Sacrificial Scene, and so as with the TWO points raised prior, is it a ONE OFF Event that leads to a Humanoid they then use to Seed the Galaxy?  Its indicated this is not the case, and so it appears to be more a case of this RITUAL has been Performed on perhaps Many Worlds and more than Once on some Worlds.

We also have to look at the Process...  each has Flaws.. at first we had Alien Engineers which indicates the Sacrifice allows a Engineers DNA to be carried on and implanted into other Organisms to Create a Hybrid, which in this case was Engineer DNA + Primate Leads to our Ancestral Origins.  This means this Scene Kick Started the Evolutionary Chain from Primate to Homo Sapiens the flaw we have with this Scene is we have to ask what % of Engineer DNA is passed on, if we have a 50/50 then we have to ask how come none of the other Scarabs went off to Inject Engineer DNA in other Life... would biting a Bull give us a MINOTAUR? i guess one work around could be that as Primates are Genetically very close to Humans anyway the Engineer DNA imprints only a Small % onto the Primate so that other None-Primates that are infected do not turn into NO Human Hybrids also if the Process imprints a small % of DNA then maybe the Engineers come back to these Evolved Primates and Directly Experiment upon only these to Further Imprint Engineer DNA?  RS has suggested the Engineers came back over and over to further Evolve us.   However... despite the Flaws to Spaights Nano-Scarabs, a work around has arose from the ADVENT Viral, which allows us to consider that the GOO could be programed to only effect a certain Genome or Species, so that only Primates are infected with the Hybridization.

The other take on the Sacrificial Scene comes from Prometheus, this time we see not actual affect on Organic Life from the Scene, what we do see is the DNA Chain Breaks Down and then Reforms and we then see Single Cell Organic Life Evolve and Split....  This indicated maybe the Sacrificial Scene provides the Building Blocks to Create LIFE the FLAW here is that this World Already had Plant Life and Foliage and so for that Basic Life must already had been on the World, so this maybe allows us to look at this Scene as being the Catalyst that  allows Basic Single Cell Life to become Evolved into Multiple Cell Complex Life.

This does mean the Sacrificial Scene would have been VERY Ancient like Hundreds of Millions of years old, even around the Billion years ago Ball-Park, thats a long time to wait from Planting the SEED to then waiting for it to Bare Fruits especially if this is Done Over and Over (Reset) but then maybe it does not matter so much IF these Engineers have Seeded Many Many Many Worlds.

Another way is we could maybe Ponder if this Break Down and Reform of the Engineer DNA will lead to a Direct Descendant of Evolution to Primates/Man via a quicker Process of Thousands of Years, or Hundreds of Thousands, where again as with the ADVENT Viral the Mutagen and its effects are Programed to Basically Break Down the Engineer DNA and Reform it into something that Evolves into our Ancestor more quicker than the WHOLE Process of Basic Life ==> Humans.  So that the Engineer Breaks down to then Reform into something, rather than have the Broken Down Process INFECT any Life, but only perform a Specific Task (Programed).

So the Radical AI aspect introduced does allow them (FOX/RS) to have a escape route to not only give different reasons for the effects of the Black Goo, but allow us to look at the Sacrificial Scene as a Process that could maybe not be as LONG WINDED and take a MASSIVE amount of Time to get from A-Z

This Post sums up pretty much what the Sacrificial Scene does, but we still dont KNOW for what Purpose they do this, and we can look at the reasons for other Creation Mythos to try and Ponder WHY.. which i covered a few pages back.

I am inclined to look at the Sumerian Mythos as this also seems to fit with the continued Creation/Sub-Creation themes with David and when we look at those LV-223 Engineers compared to the ORIGINAL Planet 4 ones, then this again fits this constant Creation Plot, so maybe part of the Reason is to SERVE or to Replace the Creators for some other ROLE/TASK

This is the First Part of a IN-DEPTH Analysis, my Next Part i try to make Sense of what LV-223 was for, the Juggernauts and those Urns and look at the Flaws to assuming this Place was a Purpose Built Bio-Weapons Facility, in which i think Planet 4 provides us clues to suggest otherwise.

Also, if it helps lift the archaic 'box office' statistic that the success of a film is weighed upon, I'm in.

Fair point. My fantasy would be that the pay per views would count for those numbers. That said, I wonder what might happen if I preordered a couple tickets to support the box office with no intention of attending. I wonder if movie goers would accept or be suspicious of a random act of kindness if I wandered up to a long line- "I have two tickets for free! Who wants them?" Then just leave.

Keeping things on a ship works great since day and night are not an issue. Alien anyone? 

I agree the viral videos could be cut pretty much. Alien had maybe two and AC had several. It all adds up. 

Cast numbers could be reduced as well. Characters in viral videos were prominent yet hardly seen in the actual movie.

I am pretty impressed with The Predator for not releasing a bunch of videos thus far. 

I certainly do think a few cuts here and there to certain things can cut down a budget, so indeed Ignorant-guy things like the Viral Marketing can add to the cost.

Indeed some Space Flicks have done well on a Tight Budget, i think a lot depends on what the Plot is, and where the next movie would be set. Also having the Xenomorph appear only in a few scenes and kept to the dark, you could get away with having to invest loads in a Full Body Suit or Loads of CGI.

I think its a case of looking at the overall Budget that Alien Covenant cost, and then pondering if 2-3 of those Actors were replaced with lower earning ones, and if the Viral Marketing was not done.  Then i think we could save some money.

I think a BIG Saver would be getting Scenes Right, as in not only Shooting but when they make Large Sets or Shoot Certain Days Scenes and they get CUT these kinds of waste of time and money can add up i guess.

I think a lot depends on how many Space Scenes as in Sets on ships, outside shots of space and ships can add to a Budget and also how many Alien Monsters and how often they are used and the Creature Effects Costs/CGI really can also have a Impact on Budget.

I think depending on how much or less of these we have and the Caliber of Actors brought in then maybe a $50-80M Budget could be all thats required.

If the juggernaut space jockey chair set is still built........they could make a series with the juggernaut the focal point.

(They rebuilt/made the Space Jockey chair for a 4 minute scene in A:C!! )

The set must be stored somewhere?

TV series:

Earth like planet...Strange alien object(Juggernaut )discovered 10 miles below the surface. Lots of caves/catacombs...minimal set design.....

Weyland Yutani timeline...lots of cool patches and gear.

Season 1

2 episodes trying to reach the derelict/object.

2 episodes exploring the Juggernaut.

Mutated cave insects/animals,  infected from leaking juggernaut canisters.

4 episodes trying to survive and return to the surface with alien pods/cargo intact.

BigDave

The cast must be reduced, as many from Covenant were big name red-shirts. And they could be not so wasteful on the design, like investing in new monsters and the using the old ones from Alien Engineers. Also cut the viral campaign.

Even Annihilation looks pretty good and it only costed 40 mil. And life which takes place fully in space costed 58 mil.

Please define Alien like Scene. The landing of a ship? The exterior of it? The interior of the Juggernaut? Haven't we all see these a million time before?

What I say is that if the are smart could produce something sweet looking in the range of 50 mil. I don't have however any illusions that the movie will not be interesting as we all know where it goes.

David was so lonely, baby, he could die!

Ha Ha...  Forgive my Spelling... this was a combination of a Typo and a Spelling Error ;)

I will Correct it ;)

I think Elvis Priestley was actually the Head Priest Engineer on Planet 4, and i am sure he could have Given David some of his World Famous Flute Songs ;)  I wonder if Elvis Priestley  actually means Evil Priest?

It depends on the movie but I'm someone who would usually rather go to the theater.

I guess it becomes a waiting Game.....

They must have been some way down the path to a Sequel, as RS had said they knew where they was going and actually are working on a draft and i think they had intended to hopefully begin Shooting at some point this year (Summer) i have to try and find the interview with RS but if i recall he also said about the movie then coming out 9 Months after this. Which maybe would have been around April 2019

When any Take Over Talks begin, then Projects get put on Hold, i think a low Budget could work if the movie is set on a Earth like Planet, and it does not have many Alien like Scenes.

But if we look at Alien Covenant and then ask if they Cut the Budget in Half, what effect would that have on the Movie?  Where would 50% Cuts come from... Actors, Effects the Sets?

I have a Concern that a Sub $80M Sequel would be on par with a AVPR as far as Effects.  And it would have mainly unknown Cast (but that does not mean Poor Acting) but i think any Space Ship Scenes would be Drastically Cut.

Well, I don't think block buster will be streamable day 1 anytime soon as they would be available from pirate sources so drastically removing income, especially within countries with weak copyright law enforcement.

I live in small, and for me would be good to see small movies on streaming as they will be likely not shown at our cinema with 70 seats.

Seen at the cinema in 2018: The Disaster Artist, Deadpool 2, Mission Impossible 6, Christopher Robin, Foxtrot (we were two in the whole thing). 

BigDave who is Elvis Priestley? is he a friend of Michael Angelo's? 

Look the article says that they will cut back cost on Disney formula stuff, and that makes perfect sense as even the highly acclaimed A quiet place made less them 350 mil. 

Must likely they will allow alien movies but with a reduce budget. maybe up till 50 mil to earn at least 3-4 times the production cost.

What is almost sure is that we won't have a War of the Worlds Crapstacle. I would also say they would reduce the sadism and nihilism (which are a trademark only of Cubed and Covenant, not the whole series), not the vulgarity and gore.

In the comments of a similar topic to this on avpgalaxy there is a post claiming that they already greenlit a sequel on a much reduce budget in April.

So knows, but surely Alien has become a niche

The kind of way i have been pushed towards interpreting it is we see these Engineers are very Proud to Display Monuments in their Image, Head Sculptures and Statues.  And i interpret a Legacy as being a them in the Prequels.  Where another theme is IMMORTALITY and a Person Lives on (Not Forgotten) on their Actions/Deeds/Accomplishments and also through their Children/Grandchildren .

Elvis Priestley (Edit Presley), Michelangelo live on and are remembered due to their Accomplishments their Music/Art they are kind of Immortalized, IF they never had their Talents then NO-ONE but Family would remember them... but in their Family as Generations go on, then you are less Remembered... " do you remember/know Great Great Grandfather James Mom"  other people are Famous for other Reasons such as Royalty and are Immortalized to a degree in their Faces on Coins, Paintings and Monuments as well as their History/Fame being known and passed on.

I interpret the Ozymandias Poem in context and in part with David, as he is looking at this Race who have Built Monuments but after they are all Dead, eventually even the Monuments will Crumble to Dust.   By deploying the Black Goo he knows that from Death will come New Life "sometimes to create one must first destroy"  and so a True Legacy is to Create, because when you have a Race lets say Engineers or Humans, we can pass on our Knowledge to Generation after Generation.. IF Earth was Destroyed then as long as some Escape then we can LIVE ON.

But back to the reason for this post..

Prometheus i saw maybe this Engineer Sacrificed so that his Body Can give to NEW Life, so in part his Genetic Material Legacy can live on.

When i look at those Engineers in Alien Covenant and the Plaza... I see a very Ritualistic Culture and i see the Juggernauts as being the more Advanced Seeding Ships that replace the Ancient Tear Drop Method.

I think their Culture teaches them that they can Live on Through Sacrifice,  and that the Sacrifice allows them to Live on as Part of EVERY Life that Spawns from their Sacrificed Body.  While it may sound strange to some of us, i think this kind of thinking is what their Culture Teaches.

I think they are then also told they will have Monuments Erected in their Image/Honor and this is all those Statues in the Plaza (those who have Sacrificed their Body/Souls t Seed Life)

For a Engineer and their Culture the knowledge there existence does not END in Ashs/Dirt but they have a Chance that in Death, they will be the Start of New Life, is something that is just their Culture, their Ways and those Sacrificed would believe they will LIVE ON in the Creation that comes from their Death, and they will also be remembered for this Sacrifice with a Monument in the Plaza.

This is just my Interpretation however.. i dont think Sacrificing to Create Organisms to Sacrifice to Create Xenomorph like Monsters is fitting with what Prometheus and the Connections to Creation Mythos/Gods was showing us.

I think the Theme Space Gardeners is more Fitting, which RS has used over and over... but then this could be taken as a Harvest being Part of Gardening and so who knows if the Purpose/Agenda of the Engineers is to Sacrifice to Create Demonic Beasts like the Xenomorphs.

I think that depends on how you look at it, and how different Religions and Cults have Influenced the Person.   I see what your getting at IF you mean that Performing a Act to give your Life in the knowledge/Believe you PERSONALLY we gain from it...  then this is NOT a Sacrifice.

The Broad Term of Sacrifice is giving up/making a Loss to someone else Benefit where it has no benefit to yourself.  Apart from maybe the Feeling that you had done Good.

For example IF on a Winter Night you Sacrifice your Coat/Jacket for a Homeless Person, you have lost that Warmth it would Provide but you know that your deed has Benefited someone else more than yourself.  This would be similar Feeling Janek would have, he would not KNOW if his Sacrifice was Successful but he would know that IF it was then he would feel he has accomplished something Greater than himself and his own Life.

As i have said before, to Determine what Context the Sacrifice means depends on WHY it is done.  If say the Original Idea from Jon Spaights/Ridley Scott applies, so that the Sacrifice was maybe a attempt to Give Up Ones Body/Soul to allow your Race to Survive/Procreate then this would be seen as the Engineer making a Sacrifice.

But also in some Ancient Sacrificial Rituals, the Sacrifice is Sacrificed without their Consent be it the Slaughter of a LAMB or the Burning of a Virgin  to the Cult/Religion they class it as a Sacrifice when really its a  MURDER of a Innocent who has not Choice, for the Benefit of those who are making this Ritual... this is still classed as a Sacrifice but its the Complete Opposite to making a Sacrifice.

So the most important Question in Relation would be to discover WHY these Engineers Sacrifice themselves, and HOW often do they still do it... then we can Gauge what kind of Sacrifice they are making or being Forced to make.

"that there would be no shower/sex scene..."

Ha ha... i actually think that such a Scene was a Must!  only in context to a WHAT IF as in what if the Plot did not have to Spoon Feed the Xenomorph in the First of these NEW Prequels.

Having a Pregnant (few weeks/months) Female get infected with the Spores and having a Neomorph Belly Buster in the Shower would have been HORRIFIC and definitely beat the Chest Buster Scene in Alien Hands down..

But yep this would not have been down to everyone's, taste, i have such a Scene in my ALIEN COVENANT Sequel idea, but its not a Corny Scene like AC where they are basically you know what before we get put on ICE lets do it. 

Its actually a Female who has a Ordeal, and is showing off when her Partner comes in to Comfort her rather than any actual Sex...

Sometimes the Rating system can be more Lenient nowadays, the last Generation of 13-17 year olds from the last 20 years are not Grossed out by things that a Generation of that age in the 80's would have been.

A few Edits and ALIEN Franchise would Pass for a Cert 15 and what ever that is in the USA (complicated system lol)  so i think a ALIEN/PROMETHEUS Franchise can work for a 15 year old Audience, if you made TWO Alternate Alien Movies where they was the same but some scenes get Extra Treatment to make it a Cert 18 i dont think a lot would be missing to effect the movie to make a 15 version.

Alien Covenant was   a Certificate 15 in the UK and is there really a whole lot more Sex, Nudity, Gore and Foul Language or Violence in Alien Covenant than there was in the other ALIEN movies that is in Alien Covenant to Warrant a 3 year difference?

The ALIEN franchise for me would pass for a 16 year old but then we get to the Rating System where say there is NO Age 16 so you have to either have it as a 18 or cut some parts to get to a 15

I think with a Good Director and Planning you could make a ALIEN movie that has a Age 15 and Age 18 (latter has a few alternative scenes)

I think aiming a ALIEN Movie Towards Age 12-13 year olds would really not do the Franchise Justice, it just would not be ALIEN at all.