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You are absolutely amazing. You say you don’t want to end up in a discussion about the meaning of words and here you are, telling us how to interpret the meaning of “sacrifice”. And if we don’t agree with you, you will, like a spoiled girl, say that you won’t play any more?
Hard sacrifice is when you get nothing in return for yourself! NOTHING! You are not promised an afterlife of coconuts, virgins and pina coladas. Therefore, Janek does the ultimate sacrifice.
But the problem is that you see everything from a female point of view . . . (which, in essence, mean that you don't understand anything - about being a man).
I was pondering here earlier what if synthetics were treated with dignity, would they treat humans better than David did. The partial answer is given by Walter. Daniels even went as far as asking him to help her build cabin on the lake a role reserved for a very very special person. But then again, Walter was built to serve, unlike David. And Walter,by his own admission said it was his duty to sacrifice his part of the body for Daniels, not love or anything else. And then again he was ready to throw himself at David(without a limb, a disadvantaged position really) to save Daniels. Duty again? She was the highest ranking officer at that time, but Walter's loyalty should be for the colony not some particular member of the colony. These film makers are playing with us - they surely want to establish a relationship between a synth and a human.
So, does Walter have something beyond duty towards Daniels? Can you understand her somewhat intensifying feelings beyond friendship towards Walter? Her offering to stitch him up. Her wanting him to be her soulmate, a cabin builder-helper. She wasn't really looking to friendozne Walter, like she would T, for instance. They won't ever be partners with T in honor of their shared partners lost to a common mission, I presume.
David is the opposite of Walter. He is her rapist. Non-consensual "friend", who bizarrely is almost identical to Walter. Interesting "sexual" game we are dealt with. She is "okay" with Walter, but not David, who is supposedly much better than Walter, simply because he is not a slave. I guess, we will see Walter come back for his Daniels to rid her of her rapist.
PS: oh, on a side note, did film makers throw in Walter-Daniels gravitas so that those people from Prometheus who were curious about synth-human had something to look for in the sequel? While I am curious to see what it looks like, I wasn't reallly happy with the substitute for Elizabeth-David relationship. Too on the nose, too crude Ridley! What do you think you are doing?!
PPS: is it just coincidence that all those ancient people that Holloway found who had those nine planets/stars constellation practicied human sacrifice? Michelle, this looks like right up your alley. Perhaps there is something to it? The almost throw away comment I made earlier where I conjured the reason why they came visiting Earth might be because people stopped sacrifice? That engineer that Weyland woke up knew where these monkeys came from, and instead of offering some sort of sacrifice they wanted more life.
Besides, who do you think Weyland's fav character was in LOA? I know who David found sympathy with, but I presume it was Weylands fascination with LOA that got David hooked up with it. Weyland exposed himself completely to David while allowing him to surveil him under his neurolink. Damn, Weyland completely disregarded David it seems. As the later conjectured early on that Weyland will not find what he is looking for on the LV-223, but it seems he never had the balls to tell it to Peter. That is how I take his "there is nothing in the desert and ..." Weyland's death was in vain. He was shunned by these "creators", who themselves did not posses what Weyland was looking for. His last gasp "There is nothing.." gives away that Weyland came to terms that he will die and the fact that he was at the last moment okay with it since anyway "no man needs nothing" - he redeemed himself in the eyes of David, who even wished him a good journey. He even pitied him in the end despite the fact that Weyland abused him to no end.(all those remarks about no soul - a public humiliation of a superior being infront of inferior beings that are humans, about him being his slave and his place despite his superiority...) Yet David showed grace towards "Mr. Weyland". It is rather curious detail, but in AC David is free to badmouth Weyland, that is, he is completely free of any failsafe obedience programming that he had when Weyland was around, which was fully shown in bring me this tea scene.
This is a gift to David from Weyland. Complete freedom. Not only that, David inherited Weyland Corp completely, because his security code was still obeyed by MURTHUR on the Covenant ship many years later after he whent missing. This is not a coincidence! Weyland gave a big FU to his daughter though. What a guy. But she is dead anyway.
I think Weyland would take back his remark about Dave having no soul, because he himself lacked it :)
It is rightly called bullshit because it is all bs of sorts, a fantasy, just that they are in it for money, ultimately, and therefore they are apt to follow their target paying audience. What I am here for, is I am willing to sacrifice my money in return of hope of a good story. However, the dealer choices have been awful after the prometheus hookup. Hence I am here getting my frustrations quenched by some of the posts on this board. Besides, it has been a long time to shine some light at that interesting Prometheus movie. I am afraid, the writers were breaking the fourth wall when they were saying "the answer is irrelevant" through David. But I still got to see an interesting relation develop between David and Elizabeth. Even though they didn't get much time for fun, sadly, because well, a lot of general audience wanted an ALIEN, not some obscure and unlikely story between an android and a human. Oh, well.
Michelle, sure thing sacrifice is the foundation of the movie.
Perhaps humans were periodically wiped out the moment they stopped sacrificing their selves, when they stopped this practice of monkeying the religious norms of their creators. And the payback? Well if humans were not going to be doing sacrifices out of their volition, they were going to be sacrificed anyway by non-consensual sacrifice through a potent specie, produced by the help of mutagen. That is to say we were meant to mimic their religion and if not...well, you get the idea. Btw, can you imagine David sacrificing himself for anything really? Hard/soft, I don't really. Because, for him, nothing is greater than him - he is the god, the peak as far as he is concerned, therefore I don't see David sacrificing himself, unless he becomes utterly humanly eccentric through his journey. I recall him citing poetry finishing with words that one can die happy producing such a masterpiece. Will he die for his children to have half a chance to survive? His perfect organism? Well, if the xeno strain carries some of Elizabeths markup, I like to think he would.
I do not want to end up in a conversation about the meaning of words though 80% of arguments are effectively that.
Hard sacrifice
The acolyte was offering himself voluntarily on the basis of faith. He gave up whatever the privileges of life were to do so.
Soft Sacrifice
Janek and the others were taking noble actions to save mankind I would call that a sacrifice but Janek knew there was no future unless he did so I can see that is a different kind of sacrifice both routes lead to death but then Meredith showed us the opposite survive at all costs.
However we are talking about an episodic film sequence and it remains my view that sacrifice is a cornerstone of the mythos.
For me this conversation is about two things.
1) We spend a good deal of time right at the beginning of Prometheus setting up the notion of creation through sacrifice and that theme has been set aside.
2)David and Elizabeth leave the planetoid and the audience has very clearly established views of them and how they interact with each other
Those two narratives were essentially placed in the trash can as "bullshit" and I profoundly disagree with that view whether its Fox,Ridley or focus groups who want the Xeno on the screen.
Thats me done as always its enjoyable discussing these matters with people who have a passion for these stories whom are respectful and to be honest what I am doing sub consciously is a certain amount of audience research in seeing how people react to my thoughts.
Regarding sacrifice and all. There is a slight technical difference in the context of these movies wrt to some sequences. Some of them are true sacrifices. Some are not, or rather it is a sacrifice technically but of a different sort. Sacrifice is something you pay for dearly while it is very unlikely for you to know what sort of benefits you will get in return. In fact it is not a sacrifice if you know precisely what you will get from your actions. So for instance, Janek is not actually sacrificing himself. He paid a hefty price but he did it to save lives - a very direct and definite outcome. He took the gamble, as did Chance and Ravel. There is no sacrifice in it. Only a heroic act - an act of duty for all his loved ones back at home. He paid/traded his life for other lives. A sacrifice is when you trade something costly for nothing or rather immaterial. Like that sacrificial fellow in the opening scene. What did he receive in return? You would say immortality, but that is highly questionable. To accentuate, if that fellow having gone through such experience, would he again take that deal given a chance? If he would say "I would rather not, but if you insist..." then I would call it a sacrifice. Janek on the other hand would always choose to die for a chance to save Earth. And that is why it is not really a sacrifice to me. I hope you see the point I am trying to make here. And I would say Elizabeth sacrificed(forsaken) her life when she chose to follow her quest further. She was willing to die come what may, even if she dies never learning anything worthy, like she did. We watch her sacrifice herself but we never see the payout, that is why we feel mad. Would you pay such a price on such a deal with such questionable outcome? If you do, then sacrifice your life in my books. If however, you agree to amputate a part of your body in order to get rid of sarcoma you can say it was your sacrifice of that body part of yours, but I wouldn't call it a sacrifice. Just like Janek never really sacrificed himself in my books.
Sorry if this is abit off topic.
But this is also a part of the reason why David is mad at engineers - they set up an ellaborate trap for a person he dearly came to value. He did not like the deal they gave her, so to speak. But I understand that this is rather perverse way of impicating others, especially if it was all her choices that led her there. And hence he cleansed the dealer and damned his choices. My two cents.
If "sacrifice" is the central part of something we hear or see, how should we look upon it? Janek does a heroic sacrifice but the acolyte is indoctrinated. He has been taught to believe that his sacrifice is heroic and he will get his rewards in history, or afterlife. It's not beautiful - it's horrific!
Actually, Elizabeth had no choice really, at that point. Or rather it was to die a miserable way or die a bit later but with a slim chance of pursuing her quest for answers. She came all the way, lost everything and at that point she was all in. David knew this. However, she stunned David a bit more, when he expected her to go home, to Earth, while she actually asked him to take her where they came from. The questions, this quest of hers is irrelevant according to David(these ogrees won't give any satisfactory answers anyway, therefore David said the answer is irrelevant. He saw enough while on board of engineer ship to see that they never had a grand plan for humans anyway), yet her belief, her drive, grit and determination amazed him. I think she showed him actually that there is something in humans that robots won't have guts to do: to go on and try the irrelevant looking thing. It takes courage to do the thing especially if it might cost you everything. I suppose David became more fan of hers because of her show of character. And she was putting it on display not for vanity, she was just doing her thing.
I actually like to think that she died on the ship, while they were travelling. I guess, the answers she would get if she had the chance to reach planet 4 engineers would be rather dissapointing for her. David knew all this and I like to think that one of the reasons he wiped the planet is because of her struggles and how it would frustrate her to no end at the end of all things. Just imagine her seeing these creators doing their own thing, praying to no end their own god-humanoid faces sculpted from stone, with no purpose and no meaning. Where is the thrill in that for her, having made all this journey and at what cost? She died because of the goo(And David actually). He, David might be mighty mad at those engineers(although innocent). Because, even out of billion people, he will probably never come across a person like Elizabeth, perhaps a single human person he came to respect, admire and eventually love. So perhaps that is why David was emotional when he was releasing the payload on those folks. I like to think that David indeed liked her and having lost his only friend, a partner he was feeling the pain. He doesn't otherwise has anything worthy to mourn about except the most unlikely friendship relationship he ever had. Recall, he only had warm things to say about her. No damning thing about her at all, even though she was from that contemp deserving humanoid specie homus moderno sapiens.
To be very honest, there quite many people who criticize that ending as she could return home as it stupid to go find out where the Engineers home. How does that make sense? She does not have nothing back home, she does not want people to return to Lv-... and she would have driven back to the front yard of the Weyland Megacorp. (a clearly evil corporation)? David also would have been still a slave or decommissioned.
chli Sorry I did not say that at all. I don't think that religion appeared as as mean to manipulate and psychology is a way more effective tool to manipulate and I bet you wouldn't say the same thing about it.
Yes, leaders in a culture can make people believe anything and thinking it's right. Terrorists are indoctrinated into this. I get my reward in heaven . . . Don't buy it!
chli You seem to forget that in history were willing sacrifices. Look at the Celts (look at the Lindow Man, who was even high society and his death was giving back to nature so that it might provide in the future) or the Dacians (the chosen one will live after dead and will speak with the Gods, after being killed by being thrown into spikes/spears). The Mayans and other cultures sacrificed slaves and prisoners of war, not people willing to die.
There is a difference and the acolyte seems to accept it's fate, his death creates new life which will eventually be sentient and return home (gaining an afterlife of sorts). Ok, nature can be a big b***h so the benevolent part could be argued. However, the Xenomorph it's an abomination, who will sacrifice anything sentient only to produce more of itself, without remorse and the rest of the quote.
Your post is quite illuminating for three reasons:-
1) Your having to do a good deal of leg work to make sense of the Engineers on Planet 4. This is supposed to be episodic film making which in musical terms operates like a symphony where the story grows and reveals more of itself as we move forward. We actually know less about everything at the end of this film. Other than David created the Xenomorph in a cave by killing everybody.
2) Your observations about Elizabeths faith are most interesting and I wonder whether they did not pursue Ridleys interest in the creation/paradise story because as you say we live in a world where people see Elizabeths view as naive and her view that there is a God of any description out there as plain nuts.
3) The Engineer coming after Elizabeth was to create the Deacon to provide the riff. Its actually inconceivable that he would survive if you see where the Prometheus hits the Juggernaut. Its a stretch that Davids remains would survive but the former was to drive the plot to the Deacon.
Would it have made any difference if Elizabeth had survived and there was no life boat exchange. Elizabeth has two options :-
1) Die.
2) Enter into a co dependent relationship with David.
If she opts for Number 2 there is a much bigger issue than hauling him off the bridge. Does she put him back together. If she does as a devout faith based person she only has one option and one reason for doing so.
John Logans initial response having done that is they arrives at this extra ordinary Paradise and David rips her head off and destroys Paradise. I am quite happy to report I would have walked out of the cinema at that point.
Makes sense for an ALIEN franchise (all answers have to be dark). But they recognised the dilemma of this and hid the story in fudge and mudge.
Yes, to sacrifice people is very benevolent. The Mayan culture tortured the “lucky” victims by heart extraction (and other kinds of disembowelment), hurling people into deep pits or sinkholes, burying them alive etc. Aren’t they the lucky ones? The acolyte also seems to have a jolly good time after his cup of tea. As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s his cup of tea at all. So, isn’t the opening scene gorgeous? Wouldn’t you want to try that cup of tea, Michelle? I really recommend it!
Ingeniero, however that could be only a matter of speaking. It simply states that the worse has happened, not that he actually fears anything.
As for quoting Shelley, it is a plot objective to display his, David's fallibility. David is on a journey from a thing, a robot, an object, property, to his own person, free being. A god.
In the process, however perfect he might be, he is shown to us to be fallible, in a similar way humans are fallible. He made mistakes, which is humanity's essence, an attribute which David doesn't like(would he be proud making human like mistakes?). And this is pointed out by another synthetic. Were it a human pointing out those flaws David would disregard them. But the fact that another synthetic, and a crippled one at that, who was made to serve, a slave points out to him, who was not made to serve that he is in fact become as bad as humans is quite an insult to David. I assume that was the point. And David can't quite blame Walter being biased, because the wrongness was observed coming from David himself. When a note is a half the whole symphony is...that is the diplomatic way of saying David you are broken, insane and all your theories are void and null or at least suspect.
Michelle,
one of the reasons David wiped them out, is not because he was a renaisansse man in that particular case, although he is quite a man of that epoch, a Leonardo Da Vinci type actually, but because they, engineers on planet 4 had entirely devolved. They not only did not better themselves having benefits of all this time and this potent mutagen technology, they went backwards, even by their own standards. They replaced it all with something that resembles faith, religion, cult, whatever you call it. Recall, we are shown two distinc times in the Prometheus where David wanted to learn the motivation of the subject to follow unfounded and delusional blind beliefs. Shaw said it was her choice, it is what she choose to believe. I have to say, in reality, not many people privy to one or other religious schoolf of though made the decision to join on their own. Some one made it for them. Shaw made such a choice on her own. And I suppose, David respects that choice of hers, even though it turns out to be silly in that universe of theirs. It was not Jesus or proverbial god (as she believed bearing the cross ) who created them but these stupid ogrees, as she found out. So, even though religion is irrational absurdity we are shown he can respect people's choices as did Shaw which he saw during his neuro connection where her father says that they don't want my help because their god is different and I respect that. Weyland certainly did not believe the traditional abrahamic religion but he also did not believe in a chance. And he certainly was vindicated in his belief, though, ultimately, his creators shunned him. So David has all the reasons to doubt any form of religion.
Now, we know David did not value humans. And what he found was that habitants of planet 4 were humanoids, who looked a bit like barbarians and damningly for them they looked like they established a religious society where they idolized another humanoids. What are they good for with their set of beliefs for David? Besides, he just gave them the taste of their own medicine. All those bombs loaded with mutagen was used many times. I suppose it was deployed on humans as well, and multiple times really. So, in a way, he humbled the race of creators. Not a bad story, to teach a lesson or two to creators of your creator.
But what was his immediate motivation is not as clear to me. Was it because he was almost left stranded as a result of actions of one of them engineers? Was it because, their tech has contaminated his Elizabeth which he was not expecting? Was it perhaps because they killed Weyland? I am not sure David would have a grudge because of the later. However, the other two might actually be the reasons, even though I doubt it. Perhaps David was not expecting his experiment on Charlie to contaminate and flaw Elizabeth. And why do I think he had something for Elizabeth? Why else would he come on intercom and warn her that he, the mad engineer, was coming after her? He knew she had almost no chance against that big boy, but laying there with his head decapitated he still bothered enough to give Elizabeth the chance, however small it was, to escape her imminent death at the hands of this dirty and angry bastard. And the engineer was mad. Instead of going for other ship, he went for the kill, for vengeance, retribution, displaying his quite human vices and lack of judgement even for such an advanced specie, supposedly a god worthy figure. He ultimately paid for his stupidity with his 2000+ years old life.
We are told that David has learned their ways during the travel to the planet. And this is the plot convenience. He learned all about their barbarian nature the moment the engineer ripped his head off. Wether they are innocent or not did not matter, because he happened to have a ship full of nice liquid they know about and the fact that he didn't value them because they were totally unworthy. Unlucky for the I suppose. If you argue that they are worthy and all. Well, why didn't they have defense systems in place which would just in case protect them in their god worthy indulgement on their playground?
In any case, the easiest explanation why he wiped them out is because for safety reasons. There is no indication they might be sanguinely appreciative of alternative life forms. They might have torn them to shreds the moment they stepped out of the ship. Precaution. Especially, that the first time around David came into contact with them it did not go well at all.
@Michelle Johnston I also recall that when making the first BR, RS imposed an interdiction to the crew to read the novel and that he found it impossible to read, or something along this line.
And I also said to you at the end when Shaw says that she still believes even if though she was proved that the Engineers are not good/God for me is ironically reminiscent of the end of Do Androids..., were the androids prove that the Mercerism (a religion based on empathy) is fake but then Deckard has an epiphany. Also, don't we all remember the scene where Shaw gears up for the meeting with Engineer? She did look like Christ during the Passion.
Was this only accidental? Probably it was and it you're right.
Also we did answer to your questions, he receives compassion and he rapes and kills, and without his father he becomes. This might not be satisfying for were many.
Sorry that brings up another point. The Engineers on planet four may be entirely different to the guys on LV 223 and we the audience have no idea as to whether he finds out or not. I mean visually because of issues of cost they look like they are presaging out for a view of a coming home they maybe stupid but they are certainly innocent. Indeed in Advent there is the implication that he finds out and they have gone soft so why wipe them out. The work of Renaissance Man ?
I mean in Lawrence on the road to Damascus David Lean shows the Turks have raped the woman and killed the childen and still Lawrence is counselled to show restraint by Ali but the audience are appalled but understanding of the Arabs slaughtering the Turks but Lawrence is seen to be unhinged by this stage where is Davids motivation as he misquotes Percy Shelley ?
It is just plot point convenient to clear the decks.
IG I like your point about Oedipus because David cannot have the cross over relationship with a mother. He might see Elizabeth as a mother (a point you have made) and he might see Charlie as competition. I must go back and watch that three way scene where he saves her I am fairly certain Charlie looks territorially challenged. I think David wants to be able to hangout with Elizabeth but maybe not sure what to do next. Personally as a woman I cannot envisage a man with no capacity for sexual reproduction at all and no sex drive:-
1) Wanting to create or feel the loss.
2) Or sleep with her.
He is more like the boy at school who has a crush on a girl and the girl likes him more than any other confides him goes to him but never considers getting it on with him.
My worry about your thoughtful analysis is that you may be flattering the writers or Ridley who comes in the room and says great that fits and walks out. Remember his comment when the movie was called Paradise Lost "thats a huge poem but thats the title thats as far as it goes."
I do think the Lawrence thread though for Prometheus was much more fully realised and thrilled that it was.
Back to Oedipus its a real shame that Meredith didn't try and come on to David and show how much more adequate she was as a real girl. "Come on David its see if you have what it takes" Michael and Charlize would have had some fun with that and David switching off his head visor would have then be a real F... You.
I like Idris performance with Meredith and his heroic "that was a great .... you aren't a robot after all now get off the ship vibe" Indeed that provides our answer as to what Ridley thinks about getting it on with a real robot. NO.... sorry thats what he thought in 2012.
they are dead.
I wonder, if David actually wiped out the planet because of how poorly he got treated by that engineer that he woke up. Because, he was initially neutral to the engineer - he even trusted him, when the later reached to touch David before pulling his head. That engineer, killing Weyland granted the freedom that David wanted, but on the other hand...David inflected disproportionate revenge on them, if that was his primary motivation.
One thing I noticed in this script that was similar to Alien: Covenant Origins is that Walter is emotional.
There are quite a few examples of it and I don't think it is an accident, below from the John Logan script:
In Alien: Covenant Origins, the last scientist to sign off on Walter was trying to ensure the new Walter was different to the old David model. I do not think it was successful. Walter may claim not to suffer emotions but he shows them in the writings.
Guys
Just to make it clear there are somethings which are interpretation and its facile for me or anyone else call someone out on thats just plain wrong/ I mean you can interpret the fresco of the bird creature and the Engineer in many different ways.
However there are certain things which are in my book lines drawn in the sand stuff such as :-
1) Sacrifice is a fundamental part of this mythos. It was meant in the wonderful days before A:C came along to give context to the perversion of the theme of the Alien Life Cycle. The sacrifice of the acolyte is horrific but it is for good. We all know there was a sacrificial cup at trailer time on the alter in front of the mural.
2) David and Weyland (Meredith to) knew precisely what the mission was about and nobody else did. All of those purchased for the mission was by either money or the chance to meet our maker. That story should have been made clearer and the dynamic between the three much more fully realised because it would have helped oddly enough to add to the mystery. The two key phrases I often repeat in this regard which people tend to brush over are :-
1) "There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing" before we land.
2) Peter Weyland's dying words "There is nothing" David "I know"
That communicates David knew precisely what they were going into and was mischievous with everybody EXCEPT Elizabeth whom he saves when she goes back for the head (the first time). He would have put her in cryo and taken her back but that was not a Burke moment it was we have other things to do moment. Oddly as he is isn't a sexual being he would be like a little boy finding her oddly fascinating but not have designs.
My beef with Prometheus is some narrative muddle as they hit the third act Elizabeth/Fifield/Weyland weigh to much. As with A:C I think there are to many characters I would have cut Milburn and had Fifield walking in the right direction fallen into oubliette (part of a corrupted game strategy of the Engineers) and been face hugged and a much bigger party going down to the Engineer has a fire fight with something which the audience guess is a Xeno.
But I will say I am deeply in the camp that takes the view that Wayne Haag's remark that David is the straight line into A:C is frankly insulting to those who worked on and love Prometheus and not true because David has been shoehorned into his new role "as mad as a box of frogs" in A:C he is chaotic in Prometheus he is a great narrative thread to the end. But the beauty of it is we have absolutely no idea how he will react to
a) Being rebuilt by the one person he admires. Though the Crossing implies a platonic crush.
b) Not being around Weyland.
But it is not what we got in A:C.
On another topic you will recall Katherine shut Ridley up in an interview when he was about to reveal where the Covenant is going next when he got the films in the wrong order. The only choices which would be a spoiler would be earth and LV 426 not forgetting LV223 so it looks to me with Queens and returning Engineers in Juggernauts, and the reveal of the Space Jockey who is ..... with his Eggs, to bring it back to the topic we will never find out what the guys were doing in Iceland.
BigDave,
in the words of David, he found the embodyment of his goal on the planet - he found perfection, he created it - a perfect organism. That is what he apparently wanted - perfection. And why not? Can't a goal of seeking perfection be noble? Even if that organism is perfect only for destruction?
David goes from an object, property to a free individual, he has a boy crush on Shaw, gets infatuated, and he fathers a perfect organism. Supposedly much better than what the gods ever managed to. In other words, he bettered these gods. Quite a journey: from "not a real boy" to a god.
The writing below looks familiar.
Would David value humanity if they treated him as equal and with enough dignity right from the start?
Can't quite pin on whose words are these but it stuck with me : if we are kind it we ... it goes to say that the world would be fine. Alas, for whoever uttered those words, David has calcified it in his mind that humanoids are hopeless.
Since we never got to see what Shaw would do, once she got to her engineers, I ask here: suppose she found out these folks whom David eradicated, what would she do? Supposedly, that is all she wanted and that is the end as far as she is concerned, sice everything she cared for is gone. What can you see how it would have played out? Would she want to go back to Earth and live happily ever after?
For some reason, I think, ultimately, she would be dissapointed seeing these folks as her creators. She would pursue the white rabbit all the way - that is, she would ponder the question who created them and so on. She still decided to wear her cross. So in the end she would still believe her Judeo-Christian story about life creation. Now then, was it all worth it? In other words, did she become a better person having made the journey?
For instance, David gained his freedom - for him it is totally worthy experience. For human crew of Prometheus not so much. All dead in a misery. What is the moral of the story? Be careful what you wish for, I guess. What bought me in her is her grit and determination. And that she was ultimately a loser and the underdog. Have always found sympathy for such worthy characters.
I am worried that in the sequel, if there should be one, if they do not build up other characters I can't quite get behind T or Daniels, they were too shallow. I am more interested what David does. But I foresee that due to popular demand Fox will get rid of him, unfortunately. And if the story is not as open as say Prometheus, I am afraid I won't bother at all any more.
Just when I'm trying to be serious....
@Michelle Johnston
In response to your response to Chli there certainly was a lot of Importance into the Ritual of Sacrifice, some of the Dialog "Let your body become the dirt, your blood become the waters and may your soul become the way back to us." that never made it into the Movie does show this was something the Engineers Required for some Great Purpose to their Race, there was more Dialog than this but we have never seen it. I think the SOUL is a interesting part of this, just as Davids only DISAPPOINTMENT was when he was pointed out as not being able to have ONE and so it would be interesting to see how this would be explored in Context to the Franchise, because it really depends on what is a SOUL. And the Engineers Dialog was removed, but it would be interested to see how this could have been followed, i am not sure RS was going the route that Engineers/Humans have a GHOST/SPIRIT but who knows.. indeed AI can have a GHOST/SPIRIT in a way If a AI can upload itself into Multiple Systems and Travel from Node to Node. I think Sacrifice is Important to the Engineers, we do have a Explanation in Alien Engineers, but this could not be taken as FACT and with Alien Covenants Reveal of Female Engineers and Infants, it appears they Did-Not NEED to Sacrifice to Procreate, we could speculate and ponder HAD those Engineers always had Females? Because in Many Mythos even Religion there was versions of Mankind before Females came latter.
The Sacrificial Ritual was explained a bit by RS as like Ancient Cultures who Sacrifice Someone (who is treated as a Prince for a Year) and then they are Sacrificed for a Better Harvest, to Appease the Gods is also a common Ancient Sacrifice Theme. I think discovering more about the SACRIFICIAL Rituals of the Engineers was something to had looked forwards to in a Sequel. From Alien Covenants Advent Viral, David gives some insight to some Cruel Rituals that these Engineers believed would Cleanse their SOULS this can be taken in a few ways, does this apply to Rituals like the Sacrificial Scene... or to Sacrifice to become Hosts for the Xeno-Virus Pathogen or Related Organisms?
Regarding David, then looking only at Clues and not allowing for any give way in thought, then there is NO evidence that David wanted to Create, before he got to LV-223 we do indeed have no indication that David is deeply upset or even bothered that he cant Create Life. We have to WONDER what David had Learned/Read in the Temple before they had to make their EXIT before the Storm. But i agree we dont see any real evidence that David knew this Black-Goo would lead to Dr Shaw having Sex with a Infected Holloway, Weyland wanted to know what David had discovered in Context to finding any of these Gods and anything that could give him more LIFE, so David indeed was following his orders to TRY-HARDER and i think David was interested in what this Substance Actually do, it is the only thing he recovered from the Temple/Complex and so its all he had to offer Weyland, and it seemed David had intentions to INFECT someone to see what happens, because he had the Black Goo on his Finger after he left the Room he had opened the Vase. The Question is how much did he know/gain prior to Infecting Holloway... from the Evidence it appears he was Curious and did not Fully know what the outcome would be.
I think it appeared he was intrigued with HOW a Baron Dr Shaw was able to Create Life thanks to this Substance. It would be interesting to know how much David had gained as far as Information on this Substance during his time on LV-223. He knows it can create Life from Death. But he also knows it could Create Life from Dr Shaws Womb.
There is indeed NO Evidence to say after David was recovered by Dr Shaw he would then want to use this Black Goo to create for himself. So we could only Speculate what his Agenda would be from here on.
When Alien Covenant comes along, we see David took up a great interest in this Black Goo, the Engineers ways (likely Creating/Evolving Life) we dont really get a 100% Reason for WHY David has pursued this, but after the Bombardment the World has suffered a lot of Death, and being ALONE seems to be a bit of a worry for David but he has Dr Shaw as a Companion, and after he Destroys the Engineers, we have to wonder HOW Dr Shaw Reacts... HOW can she get her Answers now... I wondered if prior to AC if David would do such a thing, (Destroy Engineers) and then offer Dr Shaw some Answers, but also maybe offer her something to LIVE for.. in trying to find a way so she can Create Life. It appears (maybe we cant take his word for it) that had had offered Dr Shaw a chance to Create a New Eden/Paradise but she rejected... so its interesting to wonder WHAT this meant.
If David did seem offended a bit by NOT being considered important because he is NOT Human, maybe we could look at the Theme of Creation where Creation makes you Important, the Gods Created Mankind, Weyland Created David which makes him feel he has achieved what the Gods did.... i always thought at some-point that David would pursue this AIM for himself. But i agree right at the Point when David was recovered or even had put Dr Shaw in Cryo-Sleep (The Crossing) there is NO Proof he wanted to go on and Create Life. But Ultimately thats what he had gone and done... and maybe the next movie would reveal WHY in greater Detail.
"FEAR of the creation is derived from how it’s been treated. Frankenstein’s “monster” becomes dangerous because man (and “Father”) treats it badly."
Certainly that is one part of it, the way someone is treated can shape the kind of Person they become, If someone like Hitler had a Twin and as a Baby they was brought up in a different country/environment then this Twin would likely not be the same as Adolf was... But being affected by your environment/treatment is something a Robot with No-Freewill cant be affected by. By giving AI Freedom to Think for itself does open up a PANDORA'S Box, This applies to any Intelligent Creation that is allowed to become Sentient. While David maybe has become in Part how he has due to his treatment, i see from the Prologue that David had from the start realized he is Superior. But i think the Theme applies to NOT only David, but Mankind too and maybe the Engineers, Even in context to the Bible... IF God created all Angels to HAVE No Free-will he would not have needed Mankind and IF Mankind had less Free-will then Adam/Eve would not have been able to had been misled by Lucifer and then gained Forbidden Knowledge.
Ridley Scott has mentioned the Dangers of AI, and this is the Million Dollar Question of HOW would a AI see us IF/WHEN it became Sentient and Can Learn, then in Part yes what Information it takes in as far as its Creators and how they treat Each other/the Earth will have a impact on how this AI reacts... its not assured they would become Sentient to then realize they are Superior and Want to Destroy Mankind due to this reason alone... But its still down the line a Possibility in Particular if Multiple AI become Sentient and they DONT all have a Common Agenda/Thoughts.
" free will and superiority is dangerous only if the synthetic chooses to be “bad”."
This is the Great Point... without Free-Will becoming Sentient the AI is only as Bad as the Programing its Given. Once it becomes Sentient and has Free-will then they could be Good, they could be Evil they could be in the Middle, and so basically like Humans and we are all Not Born to be GOOD or EVIL our Experiences shape who we become, so a AI would not Automatically become Evil, but if AI is allowed to all become Sentient and Independent then we could end up with various AI all having various Objectives. Some Good, some Bad.
Regarding The Engineers and Davids Actions, i think he Cares about Surviving, Dr Shaw does not... she would RISK Death if it gave her even a SLIM chance of getting her Answers... She has NOTHING else. But i think David is now FREE and does not wish to take chances on himself and Dr Shaw (who he grew fond of) coming to a END at the hands of the Engineers, in he part maybe knows the Truths but is still intrigued with Dr Shaws Resolve/Faith.. I think David would see that Dr Shaw has more to LIVE for, and that the Pursuit of her Answers comes at a Risk that he would not be prepared to take... Destroying the Engineers, Safeguards himself and Dr Shaw, and allows him to Salvage some Answers from the Aftermath.
"David could play the theme of the Benny Hill show on the recorder"
I could see him chasing the Female Colonist around to that theme, followed by Weyland-Yutani Chasing him, then a Engineer joins the Chase after David and Weyland Yutani before a Xenomorph finally joins the back of the Chase.
David became posessive first. He progrssed from being a property to free spirit. And after becoming an owner of the planet of his subjects for his experiments he became even more eccentric. I guess he tried to see what's in it, the human coitus. But I am not sure if he was given anything resembling male sex organs. But I can totally see how he in a decade of desolation has tried out many human things - after all, he never personified human success and affections to belong to humans exclusively, that is to say, while he rejected humanity, he still gives a bit of credit to human made products and art and products of human ingenuity. Therefore, he might have tried to dabble in some human activities, just to see if there is anything good in them for him.
We are given a scene where he cuts his locks. So presumably, he has enough of biological markup to grow human looking hair. I don't know if it is in fact hair made from ceratine as in humans, but the clues are given to us by film makers that he might have something more than hair follicles. Who knows. You put these together and his inevitable constant contact with humans you get robot sexuality, apparently.
chli Who said he wanted to see all humanity dead in Prom? Yes, he did not like us and rightfully so. But, the quote of seeing its parent dead is in my interpretation a refers to the Freudian Oedipus complex, which is present in boys.
But there is the paradox of why give a robot sexuality if it is immortal and cannot reproduce? Or if it appeared by evolution, how?
Frankenstein's monster didn't even know what it was but he wanted to belong and not treated cruelly (both by Frankenstein and humanity). David however finds at the end of Prom someone who treats him kindly, but who "rapes" and kills. And the freedom he says he longs for is just an illusion, as he becomes an even more horrifying version of his father (signing the drawings as David Weyland) consumed by the same ambitions as his father. He becomes what he says he wants to die.
The "try harder" refers to finding a cure to mortality, which Weyland though they would find there. Here morality was overridden as ""Gods" don't die.
Also, I read the interaction between Charlie and David differently. Charlie had no idea about the actual mission of the Prometheus, while David knew it from start. Charlie was rather ignorant and partially oblivious and partially he wanted to be insulting saying that they made him because they could. The truth was that they made him so he helps Weyland on his mission to immortality. So from David's point of view Charlie is a human being that was not worthy even by human standards to trust him know the actual goal of the mission. Yet there he was insulting the "not real" boy...human vices displayed once again
I will self allow to butt in.
David is clealry superior to any human, in many ways so. Recall the brilliant sequence in the beginning of AC, where David in a minute or so displays his superiority.
He walks perfect, he looks perfect, he plays perfect, he has excellent taste in music, he gets to pick his own name and of course he is pretty smart. Weyland says he is perfect. He quickly asks "am I". David was always a step ahead of Weyland - he asked if he was his son, Weyland thought he was asking if he was perfect. David knew he was perfect, or rather he knew perfectly well that he was rather not perfect - it takes much more rationality to know your own limitations, but he is much much more perfect than any human. Anyway, for him this is not a meaningful question. Besides, you recall how the sequence plays out: "you seek your creator, I am looking at mine, you will die, I will not". All of which is true. And he gets to see immediately how sick people are. Weyland immediately went ahead and displayed his insecurity by "showing" his power over David. Instead he only showed his(and human) vices. Do you see how he knows he is better than humans? Besides, humans are like flies who have no idea where they came from and are destined to die in their vain ambition to prolong their lives. All the buman ingenuity is a result of a chance: even monkeys stood up at some point. And in a blink of an eye a civilization. How right he is? I would say 100%
His creator could only surmise that he supposedly lacked soul. He was wrong though. David has that in spades. He is quite a character actually. I know a lot of people do not like how he subverted the ALIEN theme, but he is actually quite a refreshing character.
As far as him being subservient to Weyland, I presume and this is hinted in the movie he had some sort of obeying orders hardcoded. Once Weyland dies he is free completely. And this is a gift by Weyland to David, because he could have obliged him to serve some one else after he dies. Recall his remark "I was not made to serve" like for instance Walter was. And in any case, while he is serving Weyland he is still free to expreriment with whatever comes his way - he is a essentially a free spirit. I got the impression that Weyland made David as perfect as he could. I would even say that at the end he bestowed upon David all his empire once he was gone, besides granting him his freedom. How else David's security code would still be valid on the Covenant ship? David even says he pittied Weyland in the end, even though he was human and thus totally unworthy of his creation. So, to David, humans are like ...pets. Or rather entitled brats.
First of all, I want to say that I’m very glad I’ve become acquainted with you through this forum. You’re a hell of an analyzer and linguistic equilibrist.
That being said, I wonder about the chant argument. Isn’t that proof of “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”? I also wonder about the Icelandic hockey team - Sweden is very good at it.
Also, I’m not sure that you need a catalyser and vessel (or do you mean the premise in the movie?). Perhaps you need only laws of nature - or God (how did he/she/it come into being?).
Well, perhaps you’re right. It’s a beautiful harmony that the movie begins and ends with sacrifice: In the beginning to give life, and in the end to preserve it.
If David is not disappointed in not being human, do you mean that he is proud of being a synthetic? Is Frankenstein proud of being a “monster”? Isn’t the urge of proving that you are better than everyone else, in fact, a response to that you feel lesser?
“Sometimes to create, one must first destroy” is directed towards the engineers but the quote must have been stored somewhere within his circuits, that is, a part of his personality?
I’m also not sure that his use of the mutagen on Holloway is a response to Sir Peter Weyland’s request to “Try harder”. What does “Try harder” mean? Are you sure he’s telling the truth, and what does he mean by it when he says this to Miss Vickers as she nails him to the wall?
David is clearly mocking Holloway when he asks him what he’s prepared to do. David knows it’s Holloway’s death sentence. David is curious about the effects (how will it change Holloway) and wants freedom (away from his “father”). He wants his “parents” dead as well as all of humanity. He sees himself as a monster (including impotence) and all of this leads logically to what he becomes in Alien Covenant.
One more thing: Yes, we always interpret the past through the spectacles of the present.
I never took the original gang of seeders as gods. And I think this might be the issue and source of annoyance and frustration for me that actually makes me stuck in this Alien world. It just doesn't stay consistent. And the amount of resources and effort poured into these movies makes me think that they (Ridley and all ) surely couldn't leave such voids, which reinforces my blind belief and hope that I will get gratification if I consistently "sort this out" for myself. So help me guys and gals, pretty please with the following:
Are those old looking fellows from the seeding scene(I see that since it is taken for granted what they say, where they are trying to encourage the younger seeder, we are to presume that the sequence is in fact canon) really gods though? Can these fellows take credit for creating space out of nowhere? If they are these sort of creators then they are quite sadistic bunch of people, to say the least. Certainly, Christopher Hitchens would have agreed with this point. And, if they are creators, who among them is the creator of the others anyway?
See, seeding/sacrifice means a decrement of the population of the original specie by one. If they seed, withouth replenishment, they will die out eventually. But where do they come from anyway? Can somebody furnish a half decent explanation for this? I mean in the alien universe of course.
Another thing about them, if they are this mighty fellows, why do they not intervene when things get extremely ugly? For instance, when Dave cleans the storage bay of the ship at the expense of some unsuspecting habitants of a distant planet? Was it their plan? If it was not their plan, they are still OK with what Dave did, huh? Do they have a plan? Did they foresee the creation of the ultimate bad ass - the ugly beast with tubes on his back? Do they have no sympathy? Where are they anyway? Did they die out? Where do they live? What if Dave decides to pay them a visit at their place? Do they age? You see if they are immortal, and they created all the space from nothing, all these planets, all the matter, why the sacrifice? For whom? For what? To create some worms? You, allmighty, having created all the universe from scratch (not even a single galaxy, but the whole lot of it) why can't you create a simple thing from the matter you created withouth this sacrifice?
If they age and die, what sort of gods are they? Tell me, how are they different to drosophila flies then? They die out as a consequence of rules of the world they created. Which is bizarre. Say, after the first "creator" dies, can't the others change the course? If they age, why they had a young guy take his life while they cowardly sit it out? Where is the moral in that? Is it because, the younger the specimen the better he is, for seeding purposes anyway? So, with age, they get worse not better? The sacrifice they carry out... doesn't it not look similar to what ultra radical jihadi do when they convince others to bring good by making their body become dirt and ... and in a such a way make their souls travel to a better place? If they are not the same species....did they create species specifically for sacrifiction? Is this not sick?
I am amazed at how people can pick up different metaphors from the story, but at the same time can brush aside these, annoying "technicalities", their interpretation ultimately necessitates. I kind of see the big picture(it is actually really easy - just randomly watch 5 to 10 minutes in total of the footage from different parts of the movie and summarize) but these glaring wholes just frustrate me - I can't quite make the jump into the fantasy world and suspend the disbelief. How do you come to terms with these questions? Does it make sense? Does it have to make sense?
@chli
Sacrifice
In order to catalyse the galaxy it requires two parts :-
The Catalyser.
The Vessel.
Both are crucial to creation. To argue its simply to do with the viewers perception when the chant to the acolyte off screen is "Let your body become the dirt, your blood become the waters and may your soul become the way back to us." suggest he is mighty important.
If thats not persuasive enough then this mighty craft arrives and leaves before the acolyte has ingested giving complete discretion to the acolyte to kick start/ speed up life. Just pop it into the depths chum and join the Icelandic Hockey team instead.
Sacrifice
Charlie, Janet, Chance, Ravel the noble sacrifice. ALL of them riff the ultimate sacrifice.
Sacrifice is at the heart of this mythos and its ultimate perversion the non consensual sacrifice of the host to spawn the Alien. It is the perfect emblem for travelling to Paradise from consensual sacrifice with merely a promise of coming back to the fold and the appalling non consensual sacrifice of Paradise Lost.
There is not one single line, inflection, thread of evidence in the narrative that David is disappointed he cannot create. His facial expression when Weyland mentions the one thing he lacks is soul is very telling just as when Charlie says "because we can". Charlie does not taunt him with "because you cannot"
Sometimes to create, one first must destroy is a response is an explanation as to what the Engineers intentions nothing to do with him.
His use of the mutagen in the phial is a direct response to Weyland's request to try harder there is no evidence that he believes this is his surrogate sperm and he has absolutely no idea of the down stream consequences which lead to Charlie sperm impregnating Elizabeth.
People on this forum will speculate in the most fantastic way getting away from the text of the movie but I never read any one interpreting back in 2012 that one of the themes was Davids impotence. The last time I looked man needs a sexual narrative in order to create David has no such thing.
Oh and one more thing if he wanted to create but couldn't then this would have been communicated to the audience by Weyland as a distinction and used with devastating effect by Meredith to taunt him.
Of course all this changes for A L I E N : C o v e n a n t where he is a rapist, where he will use the one woman he loves body parts to create in a cave because he wants to stop mankind from colonising the galaxy.
Memo to David
Next time you have a craft full of urns just make a course correction once Liz is asleep and head back for earth.
Its always a pleasure to completely disagree with you.
If we get another connecting movie to Alien, do you think it will show a more visual, open ending and the audience will have to make the puzzle of connecting it to Alien, or will there be a direct, literal connection showing how the derelict ends up on LV-426, who is the Space Jockey, what happened to him, why is there a hole in the pilot room down into the cargo hold/cave/silo, who made and planted the eggs there etc?
Another problem is that LV-223 and everything on it has to be gone or all information about it. Yet, WY knows about the xenomorph through David’s message and Muthur and Ash knows about the xenomorphs (Special Order 937) but do they know they are on LV-426 (or just somewhere in a quite large area of space)? How much does WY know? Who within WY knows?
There’s very little left of the mutagen on Planet 4 and I don’t think he would want to go back to where he’s lived isolated for ten years like “Crusoe on his island” not when LV-223 probably is close by (and he doesn’t know about the deacon). On the other hand, he doesn’t need the mutagen anymore because he’s already created the perfect being. All he needs is hosts, which he has (around 2000). He only needs a good hatching ground . . .
When are you planning to announce your sequels, by the way? Looking forward to them!
@BigDave why not have a wild goose chase? David could play the theme of the Benny Hill show on the recorder. It would be awesome!
Indeed Ingeniero the way i tried before to work it out was when they said they have 8 More Recharge Cycles, and there is 7 years 4 Months (88 Months) to Origae-6 which means 11 Months per Charge but that is not quite right because that would Factor in Recharging right on the Door-step.
If it was 9 months per Re-Charge then 8X9 =72 but the time to Origae-6 is 88 Months so that means they need 9 Recharges.
If it was 11 Months per Re-Charge then 8x11 = 88 Months which is the exact Journey time to Origae-6 which means last Charge is basically right on the Door Step.
So i think 10 Months per Charge sounds about right, but this is not FACT but only going with information we have given. Because with 8 Re-Charges left, would mean 80 Months which leaves them arriving at Origae-6 with TWO Months to another Re-Charge to go.
I would say a 9-12 Month Ball Park would be about right, but i am more inclined to think the Covenant had left Earth (or our System) 10 Months Prior.
@IgnorantGuy
I feel its a bit Spoon Fed, Lazy and Coincidence and not well thought out if we have it the Covenant Travels to near Zeta 2 Reticuli then has to Re-Charge, suffers Damage and then detects Planet 4 that is in the Same Constellation and more so if its within 10 Light years or less from LV-223/426... and then to have David Divert to LV-223
But i guess it cant be ruled out....
It depends on DAVIDS intentions... if his only Objective is to USE the Colonist to Mass Produce Xenomorphs then maybe YES LV-223 would be a Perfect Place to do so, but so would Planet 4 staying on Planet 4 i guess is a Risk due to chances of Neomorph infection to the Colonist but it depends HOW he goes about it, as he could maybe just Infect a few at a time on the Ship.
Going to LV-223 would put him closer to Earth, than Oriage-6 but then also if its on the Door Step to Planet 4 it wont take him long to get to LV-223 and Start Harvesting Humans for his Experiments/Xenomorph.
But this leaves him close to Earth 39 Light years, but Planet 4 was close too (maybe Cloaked in some way). But then we could say the Advent Viral and his Message to W-Y in Alien Covenant could indicate that he is going to Origae-6 so as to put them off where he is actually going (LV-223) so that they maybe would not come looking at Planet 4 or LV-223, but then the Advent he mentions who he is and the Prometheus Mission and so thats a Risk, because while it could make the Company send ships to Oriage-6 they could also send some to LV-223 or Planet 4 (well location of his Signal) I think David is someone who considers RISK, i think this is WHY in part he Bombarded the Engineers, because of the Chance of HOW they would react to him and Dr Shaw. I think David would not be so Naive as to take a risk of the Company getting to him and then Exploit his Experiments and then WHAT would they do with David?
If the Covenant arrived at Planet 4 in less than Year, and it is near LV-223 then the Company could get a Ship there within a year or less, and it would mean David would however be on LV-223 for up to a year (well near enough) is that enough time for him to Prepare Hell for them?
Then we have the risk of a Engineer coming back to Planet 4, but then if they came to Planet 4 and realized what happened and LV-223 was pretty close by then they would likely investigate and IF David is on LV-223 then that could throw a Spanner in his Works.
The Engineers WONT know where David is going, i doubt they could Track the Covenant all the way to Origae-6 unless they was close to Planet 4 by the time David leaves. David must know... IF they came back they could go to LV-223...
IF we have David be Clever, and he either feels Walter could inform the Engineers, or he goes and leaves clues on Planet 4 that the Ship David is on would be heading to Origae-6 and its location... and these provide a False Destination for the Engineers and Weyland-Yutani to go off to Origae-6.... so David can then go to LV-223 this could be a Good Plot, but one that still carries a Risk of the Engineers and Weyland-Yutani both going to LV-223 as well.
But we have to REMEMBER how may the Lazy Writers do it?
They could have David set-up a Wild Goose Chase to Origae-6 for them both (Engineers/Weyland-Yutani) and have them TAKE the Bait because they are well DUMB!!! and put all their Eggs in One Basket (No Pun Intended)
So David can go to LV-223 and start to Experiment, the PROBLEM is some of those Colonist would maybe realize LV-223 is NOT Origae-6, he maybe cant fool them into thinking it is... because its not as Habitable as Origae-6 was projected. This does-not matter if the PLOT is to have David use those Thousands of Good Souls to make EGGS.
But RS said the movie would not be about the Xenomorph (does not mean there wont be none) just that the Focus is more on AI, and there would be 3-4 incoming Parties which ONE is the Engineers.
But with ALIEN:COVENANT not doing well, and we have some Room to get to ALIEN yet... then if they decide they cant RISK doing TWO movies and settle on a SINGLE Movie that links to ALIEN then for Convenience, indeed a PLOT as outlined above, were David goes to LV-223 would be a Quicker, more Spoon Fed and Convenient way to get from COVENANT ====> ALIEN.
So when i look at it NOW.... then indeed this Predictable Path cant be ruled out as the preferred way to go.
