Comments (Page 317)
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Yes, but FEAR of the creation is derived from how it’s been treated. Frankenstein’s “monster” becomes dangerous because man (and “Father”) treats it badly. Then, it becomes rebellious and dangerous. David becomes dangerous because he’s treated badly (by Sir Peter Weyland, Holloway etc). A horse is powerful and can be dangerous but “Breath on the nostrils of a horse and he’ll be yours for life”. David falls in love with Shaw because he’s “never known such kindness, certainly not from Mr Weyland” (Also, neither David nor Shaw can create children so they are therefore similar). Knowledge, free will and superiority is dangerous only if the synthetic chooses to be “bad”. Technology is in itself not dangerous but can be dangerous if used in the wrong way.
However, I don’t see Sir Peter Weyland as a one-dimensional character (only bad). When David asks him: “If you created me, who created you?”. He answers: “The question of the ages which I hope you and I will answer one day”. So, in part, he sees David as the son he never had but when he is “offended” when David points out that “fathers” die one day (David will not), Sir Peter establishes the power relation between them. David’s purpose is to obey and serve (which was a quite common power relationship between parents and children only a few generations ago). Many children come into this world just because their parents could, by the way, but I agree about Sir Peter’s arrogance, seeing himself as a god and creator.
When it comes to the engineers it would seem that their home planet is/was Planet 4 and that is why David wipes them out, perhaps, partly, as a test since he also wants to wipe out the human race. I’m not sure about the hypothesis that the engineers are barren, though, since there seem to be women on Planet 4 as well. Surely, with their amount of knowledge in biotechnology they would have solved that problem?
The context (which we get in the opening scene) is that of creation (of life). I wonder how important the theme of sacrifice really is? Perhaps it’s more of a religious interpretation from the viewers? What other examples of sacrifice do we have in Prometheus (except maybe for the mural of some kind of xenomorph in, perhaps, a crucified posture)? Holloway answers David that he is prepared to do “anything and everything” and he is, in fact, sacrificed (but unknowingly). Well, we have Janek, of course . . .
As I see it, David is, to his own disappointment, very well aware of not being able to create as humans can (although not Shaw). But he can, and does, create in the only way he can - by using the mutagen on Holloway: “Sometimes to create, one must first destroy”.
Ah, good!! Thanks for letting me know! I tested them myself, but until someone else tests links I make, I always have doubts.
Thanks for easing my mind about them! :)
@BigDave Look, maybe it is not a bad writing but telling the insiders that David is not going to Origae-6, but back to the gas giant. But if I would have to bet, it is some not well thought out Easter-egg.
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Here is an embed of CASE FILE ADVENT, below.
"If we assume its while the Covenant is near Planet 4 then indeed Planet 4 is in a Area of the SKY just below and to the east of Zeta 2 Reticuli but we need to Bare in mind these Co-Ordinates are only the area of SKY from our view, it does not indicate the Distance so they may appear near by but they could be 10's or 100's of Light Years Apart."
Correct BigDave. We can judge the distance from the description in the novelization, below.
“Daniels found herself jerked awake....Woozy from months spent in hypersleep, as well as from the abrupt awakening, she struggled to make sense of her surroundings. Of reality.”
Alien: Covenant novelization, page 28-29.
Planet 4 was near the Covenant Colonization vessel 1st recharge, in the direction of Zeta Reticuli. And they had only been asleep months during the 1st leg of the journey to Origae-6.
Does anyone have the coordinates of LV-178, New Galveston? I can search the books for it if not.
Yes, very funny regarding the Hill map, see below.
BigDave Those pics are pretty bad ass and I hope we see that in the future!
On the lighter side, if Resident Evil can be used, I propose the following as possible inspiration for the Engineers:
I would have loved it if instead of Alien Covenant we got a Prometheus 2 that introduced us to a 10-12ft Race that looked like Image 1 or 4 but was still a Space Suit so when Suited look like Image 3.
I think it could still be done, and have them with 6 Digits/Toes but my only Gripe (in context) with Alien Covenant is the Organisms having 6 Digits and where does this come from.... if we had seen another Race with such then we could see it came from them... Still the Black Goo could be revealed as Sourced from a New Race..
User MrSage has sent me this Photo..
It comes from this User on DevianArt
Its Titled AWAKENING and they have other very Space Jockey/Engineer inspired Drawings etc.
Some of these, or combing aspects of them would Certainly be Pleasing for ANOTHER Race that could be introduced as our Engineers Creators.
Fantastic Work (thanks MrSage for share).... Credit to R9A on DevianArt.
I think we can see some similarities...
But i think its a Coincidence... I am 95% Certain the Landing Location in Alien Covenant and Opening Scene in Prometheus are shot in TWO different Locations..
As for the Back-Ground to the David/Weyland Prologue i think yes these could be the Same Location, but i think if we considered it meant Weyland had Seen/Been or had knowledge of Planet 4 many years prior to Prometheus it could be a Rabbit Hole we bet not go down.
Are they the same Location? I would say yes as far as Shooting, i dont think its meant to be Paradise, as in they have seen it before, i think the whole Scene is Symbolic to Reflect on CREATION and the Creation/Birth of a being who is Superior to Humans (David) but this links to the Nativity Painting. Weyland is standing in that Room with his Creation, with for Symbolic Reasons the Location of our Creators in the Back Ground.
Thats just my take on it, which does-not mean thats correct at all ;)
Indeed a lot of Parts to Prometheus were just Necessary to drive the Plot Points, the Deacon being the Link (Closest) to the Xenomorph DNA, i think the Engineer played a minor role to show us they was preparing the Ship for a Mission, and i think his exchanges with David was needed so that David could then gain some information that is passed on to Dr Shaw. (Where THEY came from).
I think it depends how we look at Prometheus, its a movie that allows us to use our Brain and Imagination, if we look at it for only SPOON FED clues/answers it does not Deliver a lot, so a lot is speculation as far as how we look at the movie and interpret it.
Looking at DAVID indeed as you pointed out, we get no real indication that he is a Sexually Frustrated/Confused ROBOT all we see is that David was some kind of Pinocchio he was a Machine but he had at times a sense of adventure and intrigue about him and his likes (Lawrence of Arabia) and we get the Picture that he is not really happy/impressed with how he is viewed/treated by Humans.
So the END of the Movie we see that David is NOW Free of the Restraints of Weyland, and that he potentially could see something in Dr Shaw that he did not see in many Humans... due to how she treated him, but how she was a Survivor and Still has Faith after all she has Found Out.
Indeed we dont really get any indication of David wanting to go and do the things he does in Alien Covenant or become a God and Creator but we also dont get any indication that David would Love Dr Shaw, only that he has seen she is different to many Humans, her Faith, Kindness in Spite of what she had been through.. so she may have seen a Forgiving Person.. and there are signs that David may come to see that she maybe would TREAT him more than a Machine.
Off Course the Alternative Scene paints a different Dr Shaw towards him. What we can gather from David is that it seems he wants to LIVE and not just be left to ROT, he is Free and can now Pursue other Adventures and Likes, and he may be Fascinated by the Engineers their History/Culture while also being Fascinated by Dr Shaws Resolve/Faith and so i think he would in part be interested to finding out some of those Questions Dr Shaw wants..
But looking into David and his view towards others, i felt that he wanted to be a Survivor and Ultimately now FREE he would want to Protect himself and Peruse his own Ambitions.
The whole themes we see at Play do tend to lend to Rebellion against Creator/Father. Which Prometheus fits with, but so does Lucifer too. And so i think a similar Arc appeared to be the Intention.. even though it was not clearly Painted this way in Prometheus.
We also had no Proof to say the Engineers could/could not Procreate, or that there Was/Was not Females, it was open for debate as there was a lot of Mystery regarding the Engineers that a Sequel could have Answered and to a Degree has. (Alien Covenant) so while at the Origin of Concept it was given the Engineers Lost the Ability to Procreate, there is NOTHING to back this up in the Movie. So its down to speculation, which a lot of things are with such a Ambiguous Movie. Ridley Scott had said during the release/after of Prometheus that the Engineers Can Create in other ways but the Sacrificial Way was just HOW they choose to do so... again ambiguous because that can mean they could CLONE or indeed they could PROCREATE and so again these are things that would have been interesting to find out, and Alien Covenant in Part Answers these.
I think a lot is still up for debate, which is the great thing about the Movie... Alien Covenant and the Advent does throw some Clues that may have us have to take a different look at Prometheus.
But i am not so sure (due to some contradictions/flaws) that these beings just Decide for what ever Reason to come and Seed Life on Earth, that takes a LONG time to get to Humans, then Interact with us while showing us Maps to a Death Camp for us for 33'000 years before at the Time they Decide to Use this Bio-Weapon on us they then LOST control of it. ... and then decided to Forget about it all. some think this means we was CREATED to be used Purely to become NEOMORPHS and the Like.... but i kind of think there is more to it than that, and that the Space Gardeners Part is more interesting than a Race Who Create US and this MUTAGEN to just Create Xenomorph Related Organisms.. it cant be ruled out...
But it makes LITTLE sense for all that Effort, especially for why we are then Visited and Taught Knowledge... WHY not just keep us as Cavemen and come and TAKE us to Experiment on...
BUT then.... another way to look at Genetic Space Gardeners is like Farmers, in which case are we a HARVEST? some think so but i felt the WHOLE Plot around Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods has more Scope than just that..
BUT.... if this was the Purpose.. (Created to be Hosts) then it makes the PROMETHEUS Mythos apply, if a Faction of Engineers decided to see more to us than to be used as MEAT-BAGS and so some may have then decided to Teach us Knowledge etc and began to Care for us, well to Interact with us, maybe even in return to be WORSHIPED. And doing this was against the Reasons for our Creation and so when their Hierarchy Found out this would constitute to Fall like Prometheus and Lucifer, their Actions allowed Mankind to have Knowledge and a Outlook that was not intended... and THUS these Meddling Engineers could be Punished for this.
The Wonder of Prometheus is the amount of Theories that can be applied. There was plenty of Scope with finding out what Dr Shaw could have IF she was allowed to Survive and MEET these beings.
Regarding Fear... i think it depends on how you look at Fear, Fear does not always have to be Faced with a Horrific Encounter..it could be the Concern of a Potential Mishap/Error and Hubris. There is no real Proof those Engineers Feared us... but i think they was Concerned at WHAT we could become if we are left to continue our ways...
And indeed Thousands of Years latter look at what we have become, certainly more of a Threat than Ancient Med-Evil Mankind... Ridley Scott did say once the Engineers Produced the Bio-Weapon as Protection against Rebellious Creations. There are many similar Themes at play, that could allow us to look at what the Creation of David and the Free-Will compared to Walter that he has, and what the IMPLICATIONS are for Mankind.
Ridley Scott has said he feels AI could be the biggest threat to Mankind and Steven Hawking RIP had felt the same... Once that Genie is out the Bottle what happens? And i think with David we are seeing what happens... The Engineers must have worried about the same of their Creations, maybe because they had done the same with their Creators? (Fits with the Greek Mythos). And so they had taken a Precaution maybe in the Bio-Weapons Development... but at a Huge Cost. I think finding out HOW/WHY those Engineers could not contain their Bio-Weapon is interesting... if they was making this from DAY-ONE then for over 30'000 years did they have any Outbreaks? Was the Last One the Last Straw before the Abandoned it due to the Risk... or was something responsible? Or was it only the First Time a Accident Happened?
This indicates where the Covenant is at the time of the Signal, but it could be where the Signal Originated from (likely) but i dont think the Advent tells us WHEN this was sent as in what Year/Month.
If we assume its while the Covenant is near Planet 4 then indeed Planet 4 is in a Area of the SKY just below and to the east of Zeta 2 Reticuli but we need to Bare in mind these Co-Ordinates are only the area of SKY from our view, it does not indicate the Distance so they may appear near by but they could be 10's or 100's of Light Years Apart.
I hope we dont have a Lazy Bunch of Writing where its all a Coincidence, i.e LV-223 is next to LV-426 (we can accept) but then to have say Planet 4 only about 35-45 Light Years away and close to LV-223/LV-426 would be a bit too close for my liking.
Also IF Planet 4 is there Homeworld and its located near their Weapons Facility than thats a BIT TOO MUCH on the Door Step and you would expect Juggernaughts to come and go VERY often at that distance.
One thing to Consider is looking at this Work i did below, then it took Prometheus 2 years to get to those Co-Ordinates (Zeta 2) the Nostromo 10 Months and it would seem the Covenant had taken about 9-12 Months to get to a location thats MAYBE close by.
IF so and Planet 4 is near the Zeta 2 System, and took the Covenant about a year or less, then we know Origae-6 is 7-8X Further away.
This shows ABOUT where LV-223/426 and Planet 4/Covenant Signal are in relation to the Reticulum Constellation which puts Planet 4, LV-223/426 in the Vicinity where Betty and Barney Hill claimed their Alien Abductors came from LOL
Here is also another comparison of the mountain shown in Prometheus and Planet 4.
I think if you want to discuss Prometheus in terms of what it might have meant the first place to do it is from the point of 2012.
You then have decide three things :-
1) What was the story it was sitting in.
2) What are the strategic themes.
3) What are the functioning outcomes of the characters.
To Give an Example from each one.
1) The teardrop ship, amongst others things, was involved in consensual noble sacrifice to kick start life whereas the planetoid was involved in creating a mutagen to create replacement life which was anything but consensual.
2) Sacrifice it existed in both elements that we have been made aware of.
3) In order to get Weyland into the narrative as quickly as possible and contextualised we needed to see the three way exchange between surrogate son, daughter and father. The big scene would turn on him and Charlize helped give him emotional context. However both a robot and a human being did not like Weyland so I see that as transactional.
I seee no evidence in Prometheus of the following :-
1) That David wanted to create.
2) That David was a sexualised human being.
3) That the Engineers were barren.
4) That the Engineers were frightened of mankind.
One theme I did see is that the Engineers, Prometheus and Weyland all stole/meddled sub created and .... happened.
I also noticed :-
a) That Fifield was a coward and mentally week.
b) Milburn was promiscuous.
c) Elizabeth could not have children.
The mutagen resolved all those issues "but be careful of what you wish for"
As Elizabeth is our proxy what we think about the Engineers should be driven by whats she thinks about them and all she knows is that star maps were not invitations (we were so wrong) and they wanted to eradicate us for reasons unknown until the next film. She hasn't lost her faith at this point in the story and its correct to assume that she feels she has come to the wrong place not that the answers are not what she expected.
Another theme of the story is that all of the Promethean elements are dead at the end of the movie and the one creation that might live will rely on the one person of faith the only survivor.
What I think it is very easy to do with Prometheus is confuse transactional character moments with themes. The best example of a transaction is the Engineer surviving so the Deacon gets born and has no story or thematic point at all because its a riff for the end of the movie.
Here is another comparison of pyramid-shaped mountains in between Prometheus and Alien: Covenant.
Nice find! Definitely not a coincidence I would say.
"It would then be possible that the final battle between WY, marines, people, xenos etc would be on LV-223, it gets nuked, the planet’s atmosphere and life destroyed, everybody dies, and it turns into LV-426"
Ignoring the Marketing Sites, and Comments by RS... then ON-SCREEN there is NOTHING that concretely shows those other Moons are LV-426 and so its not impossible to have LV-223 become LV-426.
As far as David... he had time to get those Face Huggers but he could have Swallowed them before his Final Encounter with WALTER and we cant rule out him having time to get some Black Goo.... Especially if David obtained the Embryos after his FIGHT with Walter.
But a more logical way would be ONCE everyone is tucked in on the Covenant, David could take that Lander back to Planet 4 and obtain himself more Embryos, more Black Goo... and i thing to remember would be the Information he has on his Experiments... has he Visually Recorded them all and uploads this to the Computer to be used as Information? Or could he go back for some of his research/notes?
I think heading to LV-223 would be a Risk for David, as the Company would detect the Covenant maybe heading close to home and Wonder, what the Hell its doing heading to the Zeta 2 System. And thats IF David kept it secret.. but as he sent the Information i feel for him to head to LV-223 they could intercept him easier and maybe have more control over what he gets up to.
I think it would make more sense to go to Origae-6 and maybe by the time they get his Advent Message and send a ship to go there, then David could have 1-2 years on Origae-6 were who knows what he would get up to...
I think its EXTREMELY likely David goes to Origae-6 and will be there for a number of years before anyone else Turns Up. Ridley Scotts comments indicate as such.
I then think its LIKELY that Davids Experiments END UP on a Engineer Ship that is either heading to LV-223 with the Eggs or is leaving LV-223 after Mass Producing those Eggs.
But then its a case of Does David Pilot this ship or is he on board, IF SO then this means he overcomes the Engineers (or obtains a Ship from Origae-6 which is a too big Coincidence/Lazy Plot) so he would have to get the Ship from incoming Engineers.
*So he maybe DEFEATS them and takes a Ship to LV-223, maybe other Engineers are then on a Intercept Course as i think they would have to play a Role in the Sequel to Alien Awakening.
*I cant see the Engineers taking a Ship to LV-223 after DEFEATING David because i feel he would also play a Large Role in a Sequel to Alien Awakening.
So the only Conclusion i am drawn to is the Engineers CAPTURE David and take him to LV-223, or they come to a Covenant with David and they both head off to LV-223. Which is also the route i planned for my Alien Ascension and Alien Absolution Sequels to Alien Covenant
"What if the Engineers made it first, David finds it and makes his own version and then the Engineers find his version and make it better/more deadly?"
Indeed and the other replies, are just as i would GO.... it kind of fixes the disappointment that David did it.. And Fits with the whole Engineers CREATORS and the obsession with the Black Goo and MURAL in Prometheus.
IF the Engineers Created Mankind..... how would they look at seeing that their Creation has created a Humanoid that is NOT Organic... in part for a Race of Genetic Space Gardeners and Evolution, they would maybe be SURPRISED and Interested in a Synthetic.
I THINK the Engineers on LV-223 Encountered something that infected them or came onto contact with the Creation Goo, that they DID-NOT create and they saw the Result of this Parasitic Organism, and started to be impressed with his Genetics, and maybe they Harnessed its Traits? We certainly have some Basis for the Experiments and the Deacon/Their work they was doing was seen as Impressive and Important.
"sometimes to create, one must first DESTROY" does seem to show they KNOW Organisms related to the Deacon could result from the Black Goo.... they may have seen Engineers or even used/Sacrificed Engineers to see what the Black Goo can do.. They was impressed by their WORKS.
But David had taken the Black Goo and Experimented and Created many Hybrids until he got to his XENOMORPH, which its indicated that he FOUND that Dr Shaw provided better Results than a ENGINEER Host.
So IF the Engineers had Engineered us, had experimented with the Black Goo maybe to Create what they did, or they saw something infected that lead to a related Organism that they then thought "that is very interesting" and so began Experiments.... THEN they see the Results on a Engineer, had they seen the results with a HUMAN? or was they going to FIND OUT?
We can Ponder what some Engineers who Discover Davids Attempt/Experiments with the Black Goo and see his XENOMORPH as impressive, BUT also see DAVID as Impressive. Its maybe interesting to WONDER if these Engineers then see DAVID as a different Superior Creation to Mankind, and his XENOMORPH i Superior to their own Experiments.
And so we can ASSUME they may Wonder... what if we combined DAVID with his XENOMORPHS what kind of PERFECTION would that make?
This ^^^^ is the route i would take/was taking with my Sequel Ideas. and i think its FITS with the Philosophy of the Engineers/Prometheus and is the PERFECT Solution.
"I would find it strange if Origae-6 would be LV-426,"
Totally and what a Lazy Cop Out that would be... I think its unlikely not just for Coincidence reasons. But more so that we have to ask what is the Technological Differences between The Prometheus and The Nostromo and The Covenant
The Viral Marketing for Prometheus informed us this ship Class was a Evolution that opened up Deep Space Exploration and was Commissioned around 2070's and it took about 2 years to LV-223 which is just under 40 Light Years away and thus had a Speed of about 20 Light Years/Year.
The Nostromo was a Newer Ship, and it was Refitted with improved Engines latter in Life, and it reached LV-426 again which was just under 40 Lights Years away in 10 Months and so had a Speed of about 47 Light Years/Year.
We have NO idea how far Origae-6 or Planet 4 are, we know the Covenant is Newer than Prometheus and was a Expensive/Advanced Craft for the early 2100's WHAT we do know is that Planet 4 to Origae-6 is another 7 years 4 Months Travel, Looking that the Ship had to Re-Charge and its Cycle Rate would mean a Earth to Origae-6 would have taken at least 8 years. So with a 8-8.5 Year Journey Time we have to look at how many Light Years the Prometheus and Nostromo would cover.
The Prometheus would cover 160-170 Light Years in 8-8.5 years.
The Nostromo would cover 375-400 Light Years in 8-8.5 years
We know nothing about the Distance to Origae-6 or Speed of the Covenant but is it SLOWER than the Prometheus? I doubt it, is it FASTER than the Nostromo? Who knows.
What i can SAY is that If Planet 4 is LV-426 then the Covenant covers ONLY about 5 Light Years per Year. Thats 4X Slower than the Prometheus... surely it would make Sense to send Multiple Prometheus Engineer Class Ships on Multiple Journeys than ONE Covenant Ship at those Speeds.
So while we dont know HOW FAR Origae-6 is is think its NO-WHERE as close as LV-426
"Didn’t at least one of those Engineers had holes from explosions or something?"
There was a number of Holes in the Engineers Suits.... some we get a close look and the suits appear to be EMPTY... this is maybe so that the Props are Lighter... but then Dr Shaw mentions she has seen something like this before (Outbreak/Ebola) we see the Head Explode when activated and yet it remained Preserved in that ROOM. Looking at the Sacrificial Engineer Scene, and Holloway's Change, i was drawn to some of the Engineers would start to break down like the Sacrificial Engineer just at a Slower Rate... I am drawn to the Room they was Running into has some kind of Environment that SLOWS DOWN or even Halts the Infection/Effects of the Black Goo... I feel the Space Jockey Suits not only Protect the Engineers from Contamination, but also Prevent them from Infecting the Environment in the Complex.. which maybe the Humans Affected when they removed their Helmets.
WE do see the Chest Busted Cryo-Pod Engineers, which is more open to debate, this could be a unique reaction to the Black Goo, could be they are Female (they was not but we can only make that out from the Props) or some Organism from the Black Goo had infected them (Hammerpedes maybe?).
"Returning to LV-223 isn’t necessary if there is not something there that is Very needed"
This Place is a bit of a Mystery as far as surely AFTER the Advent, the company would check it out... but also this place has many Clues, Prometheus did not show them EXPLORE every Nook and Cranny, we never got to find out what any of the Engineer Writing was but David would have known. And there were MORE Complex's i feel LV-223 could answer WHY they wanted to destroy us/Create the Bio-Weapon, it surely could have clues to WHY they left Clues to this place (Star Map) and clues to the Xenomorph Origin/Related Organisms, where as Planet 4 maybe would NOT!.... Until after what David had done there.
I also think IF we are going that NO David NO Xenomorph route, then a Engineer Ship with his Creations would surely not end up near LV-223 by pure Coincidence there would be REASON why it is heading there. IF so then how much we see/visit LV-223 would depend on IF they are sticking to their Plan (David Creator) and then it would be IF the Eggs are as they was during the Derelict heading to LV-223 but only getting as far as LV-426... or IF the Derelict goes to LV-223 First and Departs with the Eggs but only gets as far as LV-426
"I think 426 is where the Engineers stored their WMD-grade xenophage and is possibly where David got the ingredients to make/grow the eggs and his Xenolith variant."
I think its open for debate and cant be ruled out for sure, i think clues are this is NOT the case, it depends how we take the Novel (and maybe Draft which i have not read) and how its implied David Found the Egg as it was... in support of this we do see the Xenomorph has a different Chest Buster Stage, is more Organic and a Faster Gestation and Growth, which we could logical assume points to a Evolution of the Xenomorph, as the Chest Buster and Slower Gestation/Growth we see in the Alien Franchise are maybe Traits that are a Devolution.
For this Theory to be True would depend on LV-426 and the Derelict or at least IF the Egg Silo was NOT part of the ship, but RS seems to be on the side that the Egg Silo is on the Ship. Despite the Size being off, and Aesthetic/Design of Cargo Hold compared to the Juggernauts (Size and Position on the Ship)
Then it depends IF we can take some of the Viral Marketing and Extras/Easter Eggs from Prometheus. The Weyland Site (taken down/replaced during Alien Covenant release) implied the Company knew about LV-426, and also the Signal... and even suggested David was made aware of this and to monitor it.
If we accept the Derelict was Ancient at the Time of Prometheus (which it was) then surely HOW can David miss the Signal, yet the Company is aware of it certainly at some point (to Re-direct the Nostromo) and so INDEED this leaves the Potential for David to go and Check LV-426 out before he heads off to Planet 4
This all hinges on the Direction they are going though. IF the idea is NO David then NO Eggs on the Derelict, then it means the chances of the Derelict or Outpost on LV-426 are unlikely.
HOWEVER..... seems FOX listen to some Criticism of Prometheus and so as it stands now i think most fans have more of a Problem with DAVID creating the Xenomorph and NO Derelict on LV-426 until after the year 2105 than any PROBLEMS they had with Prometheus.
So the Ancient Derelict/Cargo and even Storage Facility on LV-426 could be something that gets Re-Introduced. Its maybe NOT what RS wants... but then i doubt a SHARE of Alien Covenant was what he WANTED.
Im not sure, it could go either way due to the fact that Predators are stronger than they are displayed. They dnt need tech, they have observed warriors for centuries on earth, & their dna gives birth to Yautja's that have over the top strength and agility. Just depends on the Yautja.
Its open for Debate as we have not seen the Planet 4 Engineers in any encounter with a Human, it appears some of them were Folly for David to experiment on yet must have survived the Bombardment but there are maybe logical reasons for this (Emaciated/Drained/Injured)
I do get the impression our LV-223 Engineers are genetically Altered Engineers and so are like Replicants to Humans or even the Big Mutha Predator in the Predators movie compared to our regular Predators.
So i am going to say Planet 4 vs Predator, i will assume it may be a close Fight, because i assume a Predator is more Tougher/Stronger/Agile than a 7ft Human, but i also think those Planet 4 Engineers are Stronger/Tougher than a 7ft Human but i am inclined to think that the Predators seem to be that little larger and i would assume are Stronger 7ft beings than the 7ft Planet 4 Engineers.
Planet 4 Engineer vs Predator Odds.. i assume 30/70 in favor of Predators.
LV-223 Engineers vs Predator Odds.. i would say 70/30 in favor of the Engineers.
Yep, Engineers all day. They're a superior being, by far. The Predator is like your juiced up bodybuilder who relies on brute force and intimidation while the Engineer is the naturally large, 7 foot monster from Iceland who happens to have a martial arts background. Lol Engineer for the win.
Certainly Chli that ONE of the Main Themes Prometheus and RS was trying to explore ;) It was in part Disappointment, but also Fear of what your Creation could become when Sentient/Rebellious but then also about how once a Creation is given so much Knowledge/Freewill they may no longer see their Creators as Superior.
I think Potentially when we are looking at WHY we was created, and maybe WHY the Engineers were too, that the Answers may have been in Prometheus all along, in terms of DAVID. But we have yet to really be Spoon Fed any answers on FILM... The only Clues on Film that are not so ambiguous/unanswered are in regards to Davids Creation.
*Because we could (Holloway's reply to David) which in part is True, but also part of this is also to offend David, because Holloway sees him as just a Robot, that Mankind Created because well we COULD. But there would be some other reasons too, but its a interesting Question to wonder if WE and the Engineers were kind of Created because (The Creators Could)
*Legacy/Ego (Weylands view on David) Weyland is a very Arrogant Scientist, one of the best the World has ever seen, creating David is such a Achievement that Elevates Weyland into HISTORY where he has Achieved what NO one had before... Artificial Life, Virtually Indistinguishable from ourselves and Superior in Many ways, and so to Weyland this Legacy/Achievement has shown that HE can Create a Man (Synthetic) in his Own Image (Man) and so he has achieved what the Gods had done, he may even feel he has created Superior to what the Gods have done. And again there is the Potential that similar reasons was for OUR and the Engineers Creations.
But we just dont get the Reason for either of those On Film, we get the impression we are created BY or FROM the Engineers, we get the Impression those LV-223 Engineers are FROM or BY those Planet 4 Engineers or Vice Versa (But RS implies they are From)
The Ideas/Drafts that came from Jon Spaights did kind of give a indication, which was that these Engineers had lost the Ability to Procreate at some point, and so they had to use the Sacrificial Method to Seed Worlds... which kind of leans towards this was Necessary to Repopulate their Genetic Stock as Sexual Procreation was Lost. The Question would be such a Advanced Race could surely CLONE but i guess constant Cloning Leads to Problems.
However as this is a Draft/Concept Idea and on FILM its Specifically Spoon Fed this is the reason for our Creation we CAN-NOT take this reason as WHY they created us. Then we have Alien: Covenant were we see those Engineers have Females and Infants and so can PROCREATE so WHY do they Seed Worlds becomes NOW a even more Bigger Question. But AC does not Spoon Feed us Answers so that we can see these Engineers are Engineers, they look more Human, and so it was open that they could be another version, or even the Results/Reasons for the Sacrificial Scene.... which applies to Spaights Plot of losing the ability to Procreate, and the whole Process of the Sacrificial Scene could be thought of to GIVE them that Genetic Pool of Engineers on Planet 4.
HOWEVER.... Ridley Scott gives us some Answers that again Raise Questions to WHY we was created all over again.... because he had stated those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS he also states that just as there are many different versions of Mankind, why cant the same be said about the Engineers, and also he mentions they are NOT a Race but a CIVILIZATION and these are Big Revelations. Which opens up the Seeding/Sacrificial Route would indeed be done on many worlds to Create some Diversity in Humanoids and leave it open for some of them to taken to Planet 4, but this maybe contradicts them being the ORIGINALS so what it likely means is the Engineers are Ancient and they do as Humans, Vary a bit in Size/Appearance (not as much as Humans). But another thing that kind of conflicts that and opens up Debate is the "they are not a Race" comment which implies they could be a mixture of various Humanoid Species.
But again its IF we take RS comments as Fact, and he can have a habit of changing his mind, and also the PLOT can U-Turn as Movie after Movie comes out... because well DAVID Did-Not Create the Xenomorph at the time of the Plot to/after Prometheus.. but this changed a few years after. So just because RS says ONE thing to clear up a subject, this can change just as when he had told us ABOUT the Space Jockey Event (not Fully) but sure as HELL gives us the Right Path (Engineer, connected to LV-223 Outbreak some few hundred years after/prior to the LV-223 Outbreak 2000 years ago) as this is maybe no longer CANON.... we dont know how to take is comments on the Planet 4 Engineers or LV-223 ones as everything can be CHANGED.
I think these are some very good Fan Made Music Scored for ALIEN: AWAKENING
User MrSage had shared them to me.
What you guys think?
Thanks for the links! They worked great!
Robed or biomechanical suite - no difference. Engineers crush Predator like tomato.
Yes, I think I would like to go back to LV-223 in the last connecting movie to Alien. As you say, there are many mysteries left there. What’s in the other four facilities, for example? Also, I don’t think there’s any reason for David to go to Origae-6 since he has almost run out of mutagen (He knows there’s lots of it on LV-223). He has also, in Advent, told what he’s done to WY and they think he’s heading for Origae-6.
Furthermore, the project Prometheus was a secret mission. The destination was unknown to people outside the project and nobody except a select few knew that Sir Peter Weyland was on board. He mysteriously vanished. It wasn’t an SOS that Shaw sent, it was a warning not to come to LV-223. Perhaps they can trace her message and find it?
It would then be possible that the final battle between WY, marines, people, xenos etc would be on LV-223, it gets nuked, the planet’s atmosphere and life destroyed, everybody dies, and it turns into LV-426 . . .
I also enjoyed "The Rage War" trilogy a lot since, like "The Lord of the Rings", you get to follow a story and characters a long time. Tim Lebbon is quite a good writer.
Some of the shorter stories in "The Complete Aliens Omnibus", Volume 1-6 (V. 7 coming in December) were also good reads.
Thoughts_Dreams It sounds like the plaza Engineers would defer to the Prometheus Engineers then? That would mean using technology for a proxy fight which also means losing to a bare knuckle brawl and violating the terms of the OP. Predator for the win!
Well, as I see it there are scientific and logical problems in the opening scene.
The Engineer DNA-string breaks apart due to the mutagen which would mean that the sacrificial engineer starts life on Earth (giving the building blocks) not giving “birth” to man (like the panspermia hypothesis). In that case, this would be billions of years ago starting with unicellular to multicellular organisms.
On the other hand, DNA-samples from the engineer head matches that of man which would suggest that the sacrificial engineer in the opening scene gives his DNA to Earth and thereby giving rise to man which would then be very late in the evolution (a few million years ago).
Anyway, the story being told in Prometheus is that the engineers created us and visited us (and taught us things) first in the stone age 35.000 years ago and then the Sumerian, the Egyptian and the Mayan cultures. But that changed (because of what man had become) and they wanted to eradicate us. The question that Shaw needs an answer to is why?
Some major themes are creation - and disappointment. The engineers became disappointed in their creation just as man (the Prometheus crew) became disappointed in their creators and just as David is disappointed in his creator (Sir Peter Weyland/man). Part of this theme is also that children are disappointed in their parents (“doesn’t everyone want their parents dead”) as we see in the hateful relationship between Miss Vickers and Sir Peter Weyland.
So, creation and the relationship between creator and the created become central like in a fable or a morality play. This is also science fiction so we will not likely find scientific truths in them. It’s more figurative.
I consider one of my most greatest achievements is the fact that I have never made a single FB post dk. I try to leave it all on the field here where things make sense.
"1. They could be in a cave and the cave could collapse"
That's actually cool.....An archaeological team could dig him up in a thousand years.
3116
"We've found something!....appears humanoid....A synth...a synthetic being from the 22nd century!!"
"bring him aboard the ship..."
"Quarantine sir?"
"...No...We should be safe..."
BD:
I would find it strange if Origae-6 would be LV-426, it is not impossible but not very likely. If they decide that it is the same planet then oh well there have been worse decisions made about the prequels.
Yeah I agree that LV-223 was like a testing lab for the Engineers, hence the pile of dead bodies and also what Janek said that they would not be dumb enough to make WMD’s at their own home place. Maybe they started to make experiments for monsters there that got loose and the Engineers went into that pile in the room. Sure I might be wrong about this but it is likely. Didn’t at least one of those Engineers had holes from explosions or something? That reminded me of the chest busted SJ.
Returning to LV-223 isn’t necessary if there is not something there that is Very needed for the story to go forward but hopefully not. I am not sure if there is except for maybe the goo but the monsters are probably dead because of the lack of nutrients. Maybe they can go back to get some goo but I do not see why it would be important apart from that.
“The Story of Hubris is evident and you can bet your bottom $$$$ that some Engineers may take a GREAT interest in Davids Creation.”
Yeah but that is why I hope that the Engineers take David’s creation and try to develop it further. Compare it to if there is an existing weapon and then you try to re-organize some parts of it to make it more deadly. What if the Engineers made it first, David finds it and makes his own version and then the Engineers find his version and make it better/more deadly? This is how I could have written it if that would be my story.
“Fans are disappointed in the Engineers lesser Role in the Xenomorph creation, they are more disappointed in Davids Role in the Creation of the Xenomorph. Some fans were disappointed our Engineers got wiped out and also those Space Hippies as such just never looked as Awe Inspiring of Bad-Ass as our LV-223 Engineers.”
That is me on all of those which is why I hope that they will get a bigger role in the next movie, that David gets a smaller role, and that the Engineers get a bigger role in the creation of the Xeno even if that just means evolving the David monster. The Engineers got the last piece of the Alien creation puzzle so to speak and not David, I would like that. Yeah I also think that the Engineers (official movie and the removed sacrificial scene) looked better than those in AC. Maybe there is a smart way to explain this but I doubt that they will do so. Hopefully we will see some of them in the next movie (LV-223 Engineer types), that would be nice. How it gets the mechanical look: maybe they add something to its DNA? I am not sure how but this is sci-fi after all so maybe the Engineers are more advanced in their culture than humans so they can do those sort of things. Perhaps we will see a science lab and then we see the Engineers get in there and create Xenos but we do not see how it is done so we have to fill in the blanks so to speak.
Hopefully Fox and Scott will listen to the fans so we get a bigger role for the Engineers and less for David. It would not be smart of them to not listen at all. There are things about the prequels that I would change if I would have something to say about it.
“These Engineers in their Hubris Fall Fowl to trying to Obtain and Experiment/Evolve Davids Creations and end up as the SPACE JOCKEY.”
Yes! Great! I totally agree with this, which makes a lot of sense if we look at the Space Jockey. Hopefully they will be smart enough to make sense of this.
“4. Xenomorph killed by ejecting it into space A1, A2, A4, AC.“ - iG
That is something that Alien 3 avoided and that Prometheus didn’t, which is something that these two movies did right. Hopefully they will not do this in the next movie if there will be one. There are more things that you can do to it to finish the movie, they just need to think a little.
MonsterZero:
There are different ways that they could end him:
1. They could be in a cave and the cave could collapse
2. They could kill him with some interesting gun
3. If he is strong there could be someone getting up at him from behind and someone at the front so they take him out both at the same time
4. He could be killed by his creation/monster, but that to me is too predictable so I really would not like that
Maybe these are lame ideas but at least they are not the airlock thing.
It would have been interesting to see how that would have worked out if they would have had it in the movie. There are probably a lot of things that you can wonder about but that is one of the things where I am thinking “what about if they would have replaced this with that?”. We could probably have had many interesting scenes if they would have kept it in the movie.
I think that I prefer the less natural looking colors since they look more alien.
Ingenireo: Thanks for pointing that out about the mountain behind Weyland. I never recognized it until you pointed that out. Sure it could be a coincidence but it looks interesting anyways.
The Engineers in Prometheus are very strong so they could win. If we are talking about those at the plaza then I guess that the Predator would win. My point is that it depends on what kind of Engineer that we are talking about.
I agree with Lone that they would probably let the pressure suit guys handle it since they seem to be better prepared for the task.
BD: Well you can try to copy qualities into robots/AI but it will not be the same. You can not like an article said (https://www.mechlectures.com/comparison-artificial-intelligence-ai-human-mind/ to be exact). Mind is a part of nature, that we have been given from nature but AI have not so that is a major difference.
AI is programmed by humans so I do not see how it could reach that far as to make their own decisions. The human mind can make a lot more decisions than if you have something that is programmed.
“What RS is covering is that IF we create a AI that can learn for itself, think for itself then we could be in TROUBLE.”
But then why should we? I do not see any reason why that should be made.
You can make a computer program that is programmed for language like like an article says, a program can not understand language. https://www.britannica.com/technology/artificial-intelligence
Compare it to if you do something automatically without thinking much about it, that is more like a robotic behavior right?
Intelligence is also to understand how someone thinks and feels and computers can not do that, that is a human quality. Intelligence is not only about being able to finish tasks. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/03/mind-vs-machine/308386/
People can adapt to their environments and try to develop their intelligence from there. Machines are just programmed for doing an X amount of tasks but it can not think like that.
Robots can make similar things to humans but they can never have the same mind to do these kind of things. They are like copies and copies are never as good as the originals. https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/tech/what-rise-sentient-robots-will-mean-human-beings-ncna773146
You can make machines to solve problems but they can never see what a problem is because they are dependent on what kind of programming that they have. https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/tech/what-rise-sentient-robots-will-mean-human-beings-ncna773146
You can program things and in that way they can learn (learn as a metaphor) but the human mind is more flexible than that. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131217-weve-created-alien-intelligence
I just think that the human mind is more flexible than what we can possibly put into a machine. Sure we can try to make it as similar as possible but it will probably never be as good as the original so to speak.
My reason for bringing all these articles up is to show the difference between AI and the human mind. I also think that because of this the question that RS is thinking about becomes less relevant in the Alien franchise at least.
“Then IF a AI becomes very Evolved, then we have to ask can it have the same kind of Soul and IF a SOUL is these Experiences, “
The thing is if we want it to be that evolved. I am not sure why we would like that, I simply see AI as a way to help with certain tasks but to go from there to claim that it can have a mind that is something else.
“Then we dont know 100% if this is True, but if a Advanced AI can have its Experiences, Memories and Emotions uploaded and then Transferred to a New Body then a AI in effect has some kind of After-Life..“
It depends on if we program it like that but I think that the human neurons and the brain can solve a lot more things than the AI ever can. At the same time the human brain is for more than problem solving.
“and maybe it seems a Distraction to a ALIEN Franchise”
Yeah that is not what the alien franchise is about to me ta least.
“The Engineers are interesting, i think with these guys though they have to be Careful because some Fans would want to explore the more Ancient Aliens connections, why they are our Ancient Gods etc, but other Fans would not be interested in this, and would have liked the Space Jockey Race to NOT be connected with Mankind at all.”
As far as how much the Engineers should be involved I think that you should have them in some way even though they do not need to be the whole movie so to speak. I would like them to be a bigger part of this but I understand that not everyone would like that so there is a balance right there which I am not sure how they will solve. Make them have a bigger connection to the Xeno and tone down the role of David simply because it makes the Xeno more of a mystery.
“But these are not for everyone, these are more suited to the Realms of Blade Runner, and maybe it seems a Distraction to a ALIEN Franchise.”
That is what I think, they have more to do with BR and not the Alien franchise. Alien to me is about humans that find themselves under very unusual circumstances and how they deal with that. I am not watching Alien movies to see how robots can develop, that is more like Terminator to me at least.
