Comments (Page 505)

Ingeniero - Thank you for the information.

I think they need to address the Engineers. The Xeno could have less of a role since it received a decent amount of face time. David's arc needs to wrap up- possibly with the Engineers. I think the Space Jockey should remain a mystery sort of like this guy:

dk

Deliver me from my enemies, O God; be my fortress against those who are attacking me. Psalm 59:1

Oram was very dogmatic in his views so it definitely played a part as it did for all of his decisions throughout the film. His faith was broken when his wife died but, before he confronted David, Daniels renewed his faith both religiously and as a leader.

Lawrence of Arabia in the way you put it I can accept David created the xenomorph. It's an exciting thought to see David releasing the xenomorphs as a self sustained species, as David himself always wanted to be, it reminds me of the Desert Kings by George R.R. Martin. They can rule the galaxy not as David's army of eunuchs, but as his children, carrying on his legacy.

It's so open to a lot of possibilities the next film. 

It was easy to criticize Oram for being stupid but as someone pointed out on a different thread, he was a man of faith and maybe that he thought he had protection because of it somehow. Also, it was new to him and he had no reason to mistrust David (except for shooting that neomorph a couple minutes earlier that David lost his sh%t over).

I can almost hear David thinking: "The trick, Oram, is not minding that it hurts."

Thoughts_Dreams I usually read the critics before I see the movie, some critics after I see the movie. They matter to some extent. I am old enough to decide for myself if I like a movie or not.

"I think the evolution of the Alien himself is nearly over, but what I was trying to do was transcend and move to another story, which would be taken over by A.I.’s. The world that the AI might create as a leader if he finds himself on a new planet."

I agree with daliens assessment. He said the evolution was nearly over, meaning they will be perfected into the traditional Xeno along with a Queen and the ability to exist as a species complete with a planet of their very own. No where did I read that there wouldn't be any Xenos or that they won't be integral to the story but that they aren't the focus per se as he's trying to transcend the Alien narrative to an AI one so we can have fresher stories instead of the same old same old. Plus, the whole point of Covenant was to re-introduce the Xenomorph so they can be used for further stories. With the Accelerant being a form of radical AI the Xenos themselves can be referred to as an AI of sorts and that's probably what he means. Ridley said that if an AI is perfect then they will try to replicate another which I believe is what David is doing with the Xenomorphs.

Exactly. That's what the Ovomorph was to Oram, a mesmerizing new organism he has never seen before. You could tell on his face that he was quite curious about it, to which I don't blame because if I never saw one before I would sit there and stare in it too. People in general are prone to curiosity more often than not even if the outcome might be bad, no matter how smart.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2099388-the-pandora-effect-why-curiosity-usually-beats-common-sense/

I don’t really see Ridley doing any more Alien movies after AA, however time will tell. Since Ridley took to the helm of this project, it was laid out to be a trilogy originally and so we are now waiting for act3 (AA). I can’t see there not being a xeno in this third act. I think there could be some budget limitations because of Covenants performance, but other than that, Ridley, I feel will do whatever he feels like. There will be no pressure to have a film that HAS TO perform well in order to secure more movies. Obviously Fox will want to see a decent return on their investment, but it has certainly been the case that previous Scott films having taken time to gain decent traction with fans. If AA is the grand finale that leads back in some way to the original Alien, then I think there will have to be more than a hint of xeno about it. How much screen time would be dedicated to xeno precence I think could be limited because of Ridley’s desire to explore his AI storyline.

Looking at the overall performances of each movie up to now I would evaluate them as such.(This is just my opinion)

Act 1 Prometheus

Provides a background story to work from. It introduced the black goo and the Engineers. The origin of the xeno was touched on, but no real specifics given. No xeno’s pissed off the fans, but the film did not really need one. We are made aware that the black goo can form the basis for a variety of different alien species/lifeforms and that what can emerge could be used as a weapon.

Act2 Alien Covenant

We are introduced to a planet where there is an Engineer culture present. We get a xeno, but it does not really define the storyline and is eye candy for fanboys. We do see how the black goo urns are used as a weapon and the effects it has when deployed. Somehow a rogue AI element has discovered how to get a xeno, but still needs more trials to perfect the creation. Having human hosts could be the key. Still some mystery left to uncover.

Act 3 Alien Awakening

This has to tie into the 1979 Alien, but because of the performance from the previous two acts fans are divided and so Engineers and xenos will have to be shown. This act could be a grand finale, so many mysteries need to be rounded up. ALL previous acts have come up with something new in terms of offering new creatures and concepts. The biggest mystery would be, where exactly do eggs come from?

Ridley has hinted that he was looking at a war scenario, which makes may wonder if we could get a battle scene between a traditional xeno army and David’s xeno army (if there is one). The outcome being that the most perfect xeno wins.

I thought he did it for scientific purposes, like Kane.

Like were they supposed to know what's inside the ovomorph?

I'm a pretty brightly coloured frog, lick me......I dare you ;-)

Nature has a way of alluring prey to do stupid things....

I think Oram's chestburster and its reaction to David was an attempt at showing David imprinting himself on the juvenile Xenomorph. We see him trying a similar approach to assert himself to the creatures when he and Oram encounter the Neomorph. Perhaps this is a precursor to what his goals are in Awakening - to build himself a loyal xenomorph army.

The problem with the chestburster imprinting is that the Xenomorph is a parasitic 'pest' species - a so-called R-strategist with highly mobile and independent young. With rapid maturity and growth rate there is little need for the parental imprinting and bonding often associated with species that have very dependant young (Altrical species)

I like the idea though.

Thoughts_Dreams

These prequels, and Alien in general, are Lovecraftian horror which means they will be anti-antropocentrism or misanthropic in general. Lovecraft's works tend not to focus on characterization of humans, in line with his view of humanity's insignificant place in the universe which is in line with the message of these films. So if you're expecting a likable cast of characters you will be disappointed.

Thoughts_Dreams I agree about Vickers characters, they wasted a really good actor on a 1 dimension character that they could have cast anyone for.

Theron should've been used for a more robust lead role.

Call- They're dead.

A "David's head" comet...that's pretty good Thoughts_Dreams.

Wadi Rum National Park is in southern Jordan Thoughts_Dreams.

"The natural watering hole of Lawrence’s Spring is named after British soldier Lawrence of Arabia, who allegedly washed there."

"Local people gained notoriety more recently when they joined the arab revolt forces under the leadership of king Faisal and fought along with Lawrence of Arabia during the Arab Revolt (1917/18) to fight the occupying Turkish and German armies.

Lawrence himself makes many references to Wadi Rum in his book ‘The Seven Pillars of Wisdom’, a title apparently inspired by one of Rum’s imposing mountains. The exploits of Lawrence have become part of local folklore, and some popular tourist sites are named after him, although whether he used these exact sites is open to debate."

(source)

“It's important to the story, yes, but it was still "stupid" on their part regardless. The human characters throughout the saga have made "dumb" decisions like this but now it's such a big deal because some don't like where the narrative is heading so they cherry pick details.“

Fair enough, I can forgive some stupid decisions if they are not too many and if the characters for the most part are likable or well done but they are not in AC and Prometheus. This is why I have a bigger issue with things like that in AC and Prometheus because they lack good human characters. It is not important if it is supposed to be about David the issue is that it makes me disappointed if they don't have well done human characters.

Thoughts_Dreams

It's important to the story, yes, but it was still "stupid" on their part regardless. The human characters throughout the saga have made "dumb" decisions like this but now it's such a big deal because some don't like where the narrative is heading so they cherry pick details.

Can someone make a video with that scene and put it on YouTube with the song I Will Survive? That would be fun.

"Do you think I laid down and died?"

LMAO!

(No she didn't fall down, she tripped.)

Sorry, but that is my kind of humor.

red0guy

"Furthermore you listen to a deranged android who you call the Devil? That's the text book definition of stupid."

They didn't know he was deranged. Till that moment with the Neomorph he gave no signs of ill-will, saved them from the creatures previously, and provided them sanctuary. It was obvious to Oram that David knew more than he was letting on and suspected something which is why he demanded answers from him to which he obliged. Oram felt in complete control of the situation with his faith restored, thanks to Daniels, and took David for nothing more than a quirky tool, like he does Walter. These people come from a society dependent on their tools and he couldn't comprehend how "broken" David was. Oram also had no idea what an Ovomorph would do as they have never encountered anything like this before and was manipulated by David into looking in to which I don't blame because the egg is mesmerizing. Just like it fooled Kane, it fooled Oram.

"That's besides the point, Lambert and Dallas insisted that Ripley let them on board and afterwards scolded her for her actions. Even if Ash had his mission, that's breaking quarantine willingly. "

Maybe that but it is still an important part of the story (that they didn't know about its instructions). Even if Ripley wouldn't have said that then maybe Ash would have found out another way to get the monster on the ship.

It mentions dumb decisions in the thread so therefore that could be an example depending on how you look at it so therefore it deserves to be mentioned in this thread.

Very insightful stuff, you can tell a lot of thought went behind Covenant. Slowly we're seeing why the Alien is the way it is, " I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality."

David's goal is clearly to create a new race of beings devoid of mortal flaws (like his creators and their creators) that will transcend and survive the test of time, thus leaving his mark in the universe as a creator.

"Thoughts_Dreams

They didn't even know that Ash had his instructions."

That's besides the point, Lambert and Dallas insisted that Ripley let them on board and afterwards scolded her for her actions. Even if Ash had his mission, that's breaking quarantine willingly. Other stupid actions include splitting up to find Jonesy while looking for the Alien, Dallas letting Ash do what he wants despite breaking the rules, going in the ducts alone, again looking for Jonesy while they are suppose to be evacuating, and Lambert in general. The reason they do these things though is because they are human and capable of being irrational due to fear just like in Prometheus/Covenant. The prequels are meant as a metaphor for our hubris and illogicality and the characters are written like natural human beings in these situations not characters from a sitcom for our enjoyment. These are cautionary tales.

Daliens: How do you mean? Do you try to say that they really don't matter? I guess that is what you are trying to say but I am not totally sure so therefore I ask.

Ingeniero: Yeah the Engineers could be interesting but I mostly hope that we will get better human characters and that they will have the story centered around the humans. They got to have something so it won't totally be the David show because that would suck. Since the Engineers got bombed out in Covenant I hope that they will be featured in a way because they seem more interesting now looking back at the David movie.

Picture one and two could be used in a movie to make it look like different planets. The environments look really interesting. Where are the pictures taken?

"The weapon can kill a planet entirely in months, flora and fauna, then the planet will take years to rebuild."

Good item above Ati. Could Paradise quickly evolve into a desolate planet if the weapon kills both "flora and fauna"?

AC deserves a lot of criticism but it isn't as if they did everything wrong, I got to be fair and say that. There are things that I like about the movie but there are also things that I dislike about AR but that isn't to say that it is a good movie in general. One thing that AC does better than AR is the surroundings, no competition, and also there are no lame jokes (“were you expecting Santa Claus?” brr!!).

The characters are what I have most of the problems with, that goes for both AC and Prometheus. I agree what he says about the stupid things.

Yes the chest burster (I guess he means the one that was from Oram) was dumb. The way that David was like a puppet master for the Alien looked silly as F, totally embarrassing. Perhaps they had a point with that but it still looked dumb.

I can forget some stupid decisions in Alien movies of they make sense withing the story or if the characters are likable in general and that it doesn't happen too often but when you have a movie with one mistake after another and very few sympathetic characters then it becomes a problem. One thing that I can forgive using the line of thinking as I explained was like Big Dave said when they got the infected guy on-board the Nostromo. They didn't even know that Ash had his instructions.

Having David as someone that re-creates what the Engineers did could be alright but to make him the creator of the original monster would suck. It would make the franchise laughable and boring, especially if it comes from a prequel series of mostly badly written human characters.

"As for David he would have chosen this recording to then send on loop to Lure in any Human Ships."

I think you nailed it with comment that above BigDave.

In the Alien: Covenant novelization, Dr. Shaw does make it down to the surface because she has a room in the temple with her things (if I remember correctly). Odds are if Dr. Shaw made it to the temple then she didn't last long. David most likely hit fast forward to the end of her life to have his way with her body.

The religious dumbass and the whiny bitch (it sounds like a movie title, LOL). It is too bad that both of them didn't get killed.

I don't mind them as actors I just don't like the characters.

Neomorph: LMAO! That was fun as hell.

I think that she did the best with what she had to work with but the character of Daniels was too anonymous. At least she wasn't as annoying and stupid as Shaw so I didn't have to endure that crap. Most of the characters were too poorly written in AC so it is not just Daniels that could have been better. Unfortunately they put all the thought into David and reduced the humans because of that, which was stupid.

IRaptus: I like the character of Janek but Vickers was just kind of boring. She was an asshole and didn't care for her father issues but that was all that she had, I didn't feel anything when she died I was just like “OK, that's that”. Unfortunately most characters in Prometheus were like that (either I didn't care for them or they annoyed  me). Fassbender and Elba saved Prometheus from being worse.

Ali81: Nah, she looks better with short hair.

MonsterZero: She could have blown him up using dynamite when they were on the planet. That could have been a great scene. Imagine David's head flying some kilometers while his body is a pile of ash (no pun intended).

'The flashback that shows what happened to the dead Engineers wasn’t in the original script. Scott insisted they needed to show who killed all of them and why.'

So, the "I had learned of their ways" is the explanation?  Sorry David, please do elaborate on this one, if you would be so kind?

I think - no. Because us, finally, should see the appearance of a biomechanical xenomorph.

RS says what AA will focus on David and AI, but I think, it just means that David will be a main character in movie, not other new hero. This doesn't exclude the appearance of xeno in movie.

@Ati

Indeed we have to try and logically figure out a base starting point for those Eggs and why Dr Shaw was his greatest Specimen, all we see from Dr Shaw's Corpse is she has had her Chest Cavity removed with some Organs missing... Its likely that she was Face Hugged and David then removed something from her.

The Question would be was this Organism what leads to those Eggs? If so why did David have to get rid of this Organism as its not alive when the Covenant arrives, maybe its one of the Specimens in his Work Shop?

Then also it could be that David needed Dr Shaws Reproductive Organs?

I think a good way to look at this would be to completely Scrap Alien Covenant... imagine it never happened..

Look at being David, with Dr Shaw and the Black Goo and how David maybe never got to see the final results of the experiment he did on Holloway.

We had the Trilobite a kind of Face Hugger, which would have been the result of one of 3 ways.

1) Holloways infected Xeno-Virus Sperm, Fertilizes Shaws Egg Cell

2) Holloway merely passed on tiny nano-Xeno Virus worms that was transmitted to Dr Shaw and one of these infected her Egg Cell.

3) As Per 2)  but instead of infecting a Egg Cell, the Nano Worm just grew inside her Womb.

I always felt looking at the clues that option 2) was the most likely case.

So if you was David you could repeat the Process, by simply infecting Dr Shaws Egg Cells with the Black Goo.

I assume that its Dr Shaws Egg Cells that provided the Foundation of Davids Experiments and Once he had grown a Specimen he then introduced it to its Mother... and thus Dr Shaw gestated a earlier version of Davids Creation.

some interesting things here... off course sometimes RS commentaries do contradict things that are shown, but we have to go with it being what he is thinking Post Shooting, and so they are his ideas for future.

Few conflicts though.... one being Planet 4, RS may say it had TWO moons and was the size of Earth. This Image and there was another more clear i cant find that indicate 7 Moons... yet it also says a Diameter of 2350KM which is like 5.4X Smaller than Earth and thus could not sustain 7 Moons.

However i guess this read out from the Computer we can pass by and go more with what RS was saying.

The Source i had a few years back regarding the Prometheus 2 sequel by Green/Paglen claimed Paradise was about 2.5-3X size of Earth and it had 3 Moons

Regarding the other comments i will get back to them as there are some interesting ones...  The Engineers Life-span for one... the 150 years is actually much less than how the Original idea was regarding when Jon Spaights introduced the Engineers in Alien: Engineers.

Thus a 150 year Life Span, and looking at the various sizes puts these Planet 4 Engineers as actually being much more closer to Mankind than those we saw in Prometheus.

As far as the Dr Shaw Prayer, we really cant read much into that, but if we was then we have to ask at what point and why would Dr Shaw had been making a Prayer... the only Logical reason would be while she was operating or attempting to... the Ships control Panel.

Why would she be praying?  It could be to get this ship to leave and get away from Planet 4, it could be to prevent Davids Actions, or it could even be from as she was attempting to depart LV-223

The Fact it was changed to John Denver Take me home, means she was humming to this to help calm her nerves... and the choice of song must thus mean Dr Shaw was attempting to either leave Planet 4 or leave LV-223 when this recording was made.

As for David he would have chosen this recording to then send on loop to Lure in any Human Ships.

I think this is the big problem the Franchise Faces.... Prometheus may have tried to break new ground, but for a lot of Alien Fans and those expecting a Prequel to Answer some Questions... The movie just did not do enough to lay out the ground work and clues that gave us enough answers regarding the Xenomorph Origins and the Space Jockey Questions... Despite  Prometheus actually holding a lot of clues to both but they was answers not quite in plane sight.

Then you had some fans who felt a Alien Universe movie can not be a Alien Universe movie without having any actual ALIENS in it.  Prometheus had none of that really, the Trilobite, that leads to the Deacon are the closest connection to Alien, but Fans would be expecting more but with Prometheus all we got was a Xeno-ish Organism  that just Chest Bursted...

It would be like if AC was a long winded movie, no Neomorphs and we see Oram Face Hugged and taken to the Covenant and then we see him get Chest Busted and the movie ended.....

Alien Engineers, the earlier Prometheus draft well draft which Prometheus was a re-write from would have maybe been accepted more by those who disliked Prometheus, because not only did it offer more clues to the Space Jockey/Xeno connection, it actually had battle/death scenes between various Xenomorph like Monsters and the Crew and Engineer.  If Prometheus had the Fifield as a more Xeno-Hybrid  and if we saw a Scene where Dr Shaw had a encounter with the Deacon... then maybe Prometheus would have pleased fans.

So FOX had taken this on board and when they realized the anticipation for Blomkamps Alien 5, FOX had saw that the Fans wanted to see the Xenomorphs back... the Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters and Big Guys...  Just as RS had said..  "the fans want Aliens, i will give the Fricken Aliens"

So thats why we got Alien Covenant... the Plan was instead of steering further from Alien in a Prometheus Prequel, they now decided they needed to steer it closer and on a path that Finally Connects and Explains the Events that lead to the Derelict/Space Jockey.

Part of this was to Prefix the Movies with ALIEN so for Marketing reasons there can be no Mistake this is a ALIEN movie and not a Prometheus one, and that the aim is to go the route to lead right into ALIEN 1979

ULTIMATELY the Problem with this is that any ALIEN: Prefix movie, the Fans are going to expect the Xenomorphs and while the ALIEN Universe can stand for more than just Xenomorphs... as the Engineers are a ALIEN Race, their Black Goo creates various ALIEN Monsters, a lot of Fans would only expect that a ALIEN Franchise movie would have to contain some form of the Classic Xenomorph.

If Alien Covenant did not bring in the Xenomorph, but at the end only showed some Eggs.... i think for a number of Fans they would be pissed that there was again no ALIEN connection of Xenomorphs.

If the movies only Xenomorph connection was the Eggs and revealed David snook two of the tiny ones and then got the two Face Huggers out of it and put them in the Capsules and with the Embryos, again i feel this would not have been enough for many fans.

If we saw Oram Face Hugged but we only see him at the end Chest Bursting and then we get the Credits like we did with the Deacon, i think even that would not have been enough.

Only having the Xenomorph would seem to do for many fans... and for some the limited time we saw them in Alien Covenant was not enough.

So to ANSWER the Question?

Honestly i think the Next movies would have to have a few Xenomorphs and even show how David could obtain a Xeno-Egg from just those TWO Face Huggers, i think by not having any Xenomorphs will affect the potential Box Office, and also i think a lot of Fans especially Fanboys would want to see even more Xeno Action than AC had...

I know a number are hoping it will show that David did not create them too

Show: Vickers... I slipped...

BggggsshhhhNOOObshhhhhh

Show: Oh, WOW!, I alive!

If I remember correctly, Ridley also said something about when Shaw and David arrived on planet 4 that there was some kind of a welcoming process going on as the whole city of Engineers was gathering at the plaza, waving at the Juggernaut.