Comments (Page 620)

@ joylitt

Yes, that is a great line.  That one really stuck out for me.

The look of the storage room David is in by the opening looks like a place a never saw in Prometheus.  Maybe there is structural order to the way they must be released.  I guess the big ones are released first so that they have the space to float to the outside and then the smaller ones get released to fill in the middle.  That way the urns don't collide as they move around and get into position before exploding. 

Thanks for shots Kethol!

I Moon Girl  going back to the dog comparison, in the movie David gives us a clear clue of his awareness that he is the product of his "upbringing" when he tells Daniels, referring to Origae 6: "I think if we are kind, it will be a kind world". Actually to me that is the best line in the whole film. It sounds much more genuine than any bombastic Percy Shelley quote.

I take the approach of logical relevance when it comes to AI’s. The most basic programming is based on decisions made by knowing what action to take upon certain criteria, which are programmed criteria. A computer mind has to make decisions based upon the sum total of alternative programmed solutions. A human mind has the ability to create a solution to a problem from a more random framework of thinking. It can create a solution that is not based in prior knowledge and is more willing to just explore a possible solution by going completely off at a tangent and entering a surrealistic interpretation. The AI mind is imo shackled to a methodical approach. The big difference is when a decision has to be made upon what input information is the most relevant. A human can take onboard any information, in any random manner. But can an AI do that? Is an AI more likely going to pursue information that is programmable relevant, rather than a human mind which can take in the irrelevant and make the irrelevant relevant. I think this folly of programming can be used to explain David’s lack of looking more in depth of Daniels cabin in the woods. The AI mind, while explorative, will still keep to a relevant and logical path.

I don’t think AI has the same solution solving predictability path as a human which can be way more random.

I would like to see how things proceed on the AI mind, but it is ultimately predictable.

dk Oh no, I never suggested to make a movie influenced by Assimov. Obviosly the sythetics in the Alien universe are conceived more as automatons, in a way they are offshoots of the human psyque, something more akin to Pinocchio than to an Assimov robot. The formula that you propose sounds fine to me.

joylitt Fair enough. I suggest that the AI can address both philosophical and human condition issues.

dk I think the formula in all of those movies have remained pretty much well balanced, Covenant is the first movie that really alters this balance. Some may find this interesting, but the Box office returns speak for themselves. I would say the first 4 movies and Prometheus have a much bigger share of the human factor, although it was approached from different perspectives. Aliens got a little bit more conventionally warmly human through Ripleys/Newt relationship. Alien 3 and Resurrection have a lot of humanity in them too. The AI element dropped in Alien 3 and spiked again in Resurrection. And Prometheus had a more philosophical approach, which was also very human.

joylitt Asimov! That seems to suggest a lean toward AI exploration? 

30% Human element; 20% Xenomorph factor ; 30% Engineers factor; 20 % synthetics factor

I would go as far to suggest 40% Human element; 10% Xenomorph factor ; 25% Engineers factor; 25 % synthetics factor.

I Moon Girl "So, are AI's like dogs?  As the saying goes, "There is no such thing as a bad dog.  There is only a bad owner."  I see a lot of Peter Weyland in David, even though we haven't seen much of Peter Weyland."

This is so true! Weyland was such a bad father and such a bad robotist! Issac Assimov would bash all of his creations with a baseball bat. Do the 3 Laws of robotics ring any bell?

First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

In the Assimov universe there were still rogue robots and conflicts with the 3 laws, However there was always someone smart enough to find a fix.

The urns in the first juggernaut in Prometheus are all kinds of different sizes, but the ones we see in the bomb bay room of the ship David and Shaw took seem to be all the same.

The screen shots post so small that is is difficult to see, but they are floating. There is no carriage or rack mechanism to suspend and move them, but something moves them.

In that AVP podcast with Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton they seemed to think this was the urns breaking on the planetary shield described in the script.

joylitt Interesting. How would you apply your formula to the Qudrilogy and Prometheus?

It is time to find a balance. A Good recipe for the next movie would be:

30% Human element; 20% Xenomorph factor ; 30% Engineers factor; 20 % synthetics factor

I think Covenant was 85% synthetics;  5% Humans 10%; xenomorph, neomorph etc;  0.01 % Engineers (trace amount)

Covenant is the most AI centric movie the franchise will ever need. Actually it is an overdose of AI. In the future, the AI dose should be no more than 1/4 of the formula

I Moon Girl Again, interesting points. I did not care for Prometheus, but after AC, I am open to exploring the Engineers' world. I think it could work with exploring the human condition as well if written well.

Phobos was interesting in that Walter did not feel superior since feeling so requires an ego that is a human construct that he doesn't possess.

To paraphrase what you wrote regarding the David 8 model and Weyland- garbage in, garbage out?

Prometheus

I want the Engineers perspective.  I want to know why they wanted to kill us and then why they didn't in the end.  I also want to just know more about them.  I don't want a whole movie filled with the Engineers perspective, but some more info would be great!

The AI perspective is interesting though.  I have never thought of AI as thinking they are superior to humans because they never die.  That topic is addressed at the intro to A:C too.  It is an interesting perspective that I hope meets it's maker to the Engineers in Alien: Awakening.  David needs to find out he's not superior just because he was "born" and never "dies".  He doesn't understand how lucky some people think he is and he just wants to kill 'em all.  He has no compassion for others and he has few morals.

David 8's were taken out of production according to Walter because they made people feel uncomfortable.  Apparently there was no complaints of murder or arrogance (The David we know does this).  The creative side made the David 8's feel to human to the owners and didn't always follow orders.  The David 8's would definitely have to be taken away.

The thing with David's perspective is that it was, in a sense, inherited from Peter Weyland.  Weyland had the same attitude as David.  As the sayings go, "Like father, like "son"" or... "the apple doesn't fall to far away from the tree."

So, are AI's like dogs?  As the saying goes, "There is no such thing as a bad dog.  There is only a bad owner."  I see a lot of Peter Weyland in David, even though we haven't seen much of Peter Weyland.

I Moon Girl David is lethal, as RS said. IDK that the Engineers know the difference based on appearance alone I wish Walter would have come out victorious. Fingers crossed for the next movie. Most movies have ended badly though.

To the OP- "Identifying who or what created us?"........and why?

@ dk

They may not even know that he is human.  Well, looks like a human.

If they know he is a "human", then I think Earth is back on the hit list.  If that word gets out to the space jockey Engineers, I think Earth is doomed!  I hate David...

@dk

True, but did they have time to see his face.  He was really high in the sky too.  If Engineers created humans, then they don't have vision to different than humans.

Of course, these points are based on the idea that David and Shaw were arriving to Planet 4.  If they were actually leaving Planet 4, then they would have obviously known what he looks like.  Then, I could see trust issues for sure.

@ Ingeniero

Wasn't Fifield smiling when he brought out his water bong too?

Is this from the AC blue ray? I haven't seen everything yet.

@Thombach

You may be right, but, as far as we know, that juggernaut came from LV-223, so why would it be different?

Isn't the one found in Prometheus holding different urn sizes?

I can't remember that detail.

Also, Thombach, if you can, take a screen shot of the urns suspended in air if you can!

I would really appreciate it!  

I missed that! This looks really good and that's how disappointed I was back then. I will check it out.

'The post industrial aesthetic apparent in their interplanetary vehicles and space suits seem the result of a congruent return to even older and natural forms.'

So the alien ships were not grown...

dk - Yes, that's a deleted scene from Prom.

'He did not state that Walter is dead-'

A ray of light... :)

I have never seen this. Is it on the blue ray? I admit to not liking Prometheus so I didn't watch the extras except for deleted scenes. I would like to see this part though.

Aren't all the urns in the bomb bay exactly the same size? I'll have to check again but just watched it on a big screen last night. I could swear they were all the same. I'm still trying to figure out why they all explode like they hit an invisible shell in the sky before the black clouds start to swarm down.

What I thought was interesting is that the urns float into position before dropping. Nothing touches them.

I like how when they drop, they form a pattern like a DNA helix too.

I Moon Girl I imagine they would not trust Walter especially considering being identical to David. It would be interesting to observe Walter overcome that obstacle though!

@dk

I guess the question would arise if Walter did find surviving Engineers, "Would they trust him?"

@dk, and Bishop as well in alien3 when ripley reactivates his head.

And this worm will return as the monster of the next Alien movie... :)

airshaft_surprise Totally ok! I will likely not ever read the novel. But now that you mention it, I got a heavy Hanibal vibe from David when Oram told him it was a colony ship with 2000 people. "Well, well, well" was just one line reminding me of Solence of the Lambs!........and the moth sketches!

Sorry dk, did not mean to toss a spoiler in there from the novel, i recalled Silence of the Lambs when they rubbed some kind of menthol tincture under the nostrils to mask the smell.

airshaft_surprise A nod to Ash before Ripley torched him? The voice sounded distorted the same way.

@hox, yeah davids voice is distorted, watched covenant last night and noticed it in that scene.

airshaft_surprise

 its good to stop and rewind when something interesting catches your eye, can't do that in the cinema lol!

Definitely- there were lots of things un noticed or unheard in the theater. I have not read the novel, but it is nice to know (the more senses that can be engaged, the better) and that short scene (as with the others) could have fleshed out things better imo.

This is very deep thread and I am not reading everything, but here is what I think about the different urn sizes.

In the bombing scene in A:C, all of the urns organized themselves in the air in a circular pattern.  It was vary organized.  So, I think the different urn sizes is related to their organization before the contents get released.

It would make sense for the bigger urns to go to the outside of the formation and the smaller ones to go towards the middle because the bigger ones have further reach than the smaller ones.  Anything or anyone towards the middle (where the small urns are) have NO CHANCE OF ESCAPING.  If they run, they will only run into more black goo.  So, there is no reason to pour as much goo in the middle.  Now, the things or living beings towards the outside could actually run away from underneath the bombs.  So, there are bigger urns on the outside to have more spread when the explode.  This would hopefully, in war, kill the things or beings towards the outside.  

Of course, this is just speculation.

Gidday dk, i bought the blu-ray 2 days ago but have not checked out the commentary yet, i have watched everything else on the disk, its good to stop and rewind when something interesting catches your eye, can't do that in the cinema lol!

The stench in the egg room is ammonia, mentioned in the novel, i would say for sure walter will be back, maybe reactivated by engineers or a WY team sent to investigate?

That would be awesome.

I Moon Girl Interesting points. As far as the commentary, the regurgitated facehuggers "tucking in the kids" were a referense to real world female drug smugglers getting drugs accross a border by ingesting and then passing them.

If David knew about the Covenant's arrival, it would make sense for David to wait instead of trying to make an existing juggernaut operational. It is a human ship with lots of hosts.

Not sure how Walter could figure out Engineer language unless he had it pre programmed- but we see no evidence of that. It would be interesting if Walter found a pocket of survivors to learn the language and ultimately about juggernaut technology.

There was an unaccounted for neomorph, but I wonder if it will go the way of the unaddressed Deacon.

I was under the impression the People were waving hello to David and Shaw as they arrived. RS alluded to this in the commentary. The way you put it sounds pretty interesting though too.