Comments (Page 345)

I think it shows the error of their ways in HINDSIGHT

The Problem with a U-Turn to now connect to ALIEN rather than steer away from ALIEN is they now have to Spoon Feed us and Shoe-horn in a Plot to Connect to ALIEN in TWO movies.

And so indeed Human Characters are going to be important.... they could maybe Feed us Engineer Characters but that would be tricky unless we get introduced to some Fragile Engineer Characters we can Pity but again with the use of Sub-Titles how do they convey their Plight?

The Universe could have been potentially HUGE and they could have had David and Dr Shaw go off to a place THOUSANDS of Light Years away and so the Events Do-Not Conflict the Original Franchise.

We we can ASK... is Earth the only place the Engineers Seeded Humans?  So there is potential for another Human Civilization in the further reached of the Galaxy, just as the Battle Star Galactica Franchise had... so for instance Caprica.

Then we could get Human Characters introduced.... the only PROBLEM Faced here is  the COINCIDENCE if they can Talk English.  Unless its revealed they learned this from Engineers but then we have to ask WHY David had to Translate for Weyland in Prometheus, they could reveal that some Engineers Arrived on Earth to Rescue some Humans and take them to another Colony and these Speak English as thats the only real way it would make more sense.  Because other Humans that would need Sub-Titles because they speak a Alien Tongue would not allow us to connect to the Characters.

So there is a PROBLEM with how to introduce Characters... the options they have are these.

1) Show us the Movie Set After a Colony has been set up, where David is Pretending to be Walter and the Colony have NO idea what happened to the Real Walter and the Crew that died in 2104.  If we have a Set Up Colony, Families etc then we could maybe engage with them.  BUT for this to work there would have to be a Handful who Survive the Colony and go on to the 3rd Chapter in the Prequels (Alien Covenant Pt 3).

2) Have one of the incoming Human Ships introduce us to Characters who we can make a connection with, and again as per (1) have a few of these Survive to the Following Movie.

3) Somehow have Daniels and Tennessee come back in some role and have ONE of them Survive to the Following Movie... THIS would be hard to do as it would conflict Davids Plans as Daniels is aware of who he is.

My idea for a Alien Covenant Sequel...  Alien: Ascension does cover all 3 of those done in a way i think fits WELL... only my Movie Plot is also a lot about David and AI though.. and little to do with the Xenomorph and Engineers.... they only come into it during the latter stage of the 3rd Act but will play a larger role in the following Movie.. Alien: Absolution

Big Dave: I felt for Oram when he realized Karine was in a bad situation. Unfortunately Karine was not well written but like the characters in general she was better than most in Prometheus since she was not dumb or annoying.

As far as understanding earlier that Walter was David, whatever, the human characters are more important. 90% of the movie was in favor of the androids so if they would have reduced that to 85% by doing that then it would not have affected the movie that much.

"a) we dont get the David and Chest Buster Scene we had, which was to show David as the Puppet Master to his Creation.
b) have this scene on the Covenant but then we would know Walter is David prior to the Last Scene."

Those things could probably have been fixed, done in another way that still would work.

Yeah they need to get the mystery back. I think that they still could introduce something more interesting but it should not be at the expense of the human characters. They must get better human characters in the next movie. It will not matter to me if it will be the last because they have let us down twice with that so now they got to make up for it so the prequels will get that right once at least and avoid to be a total disaster. Unfortunately it seems to me that the prequels will be the Phantom Menace of the Alien franchise but we still have the first three movies.

Ali81: Fair enough

Dark Nebula: The Engineer at the far left almost looks like the Emperor in Star Wars 6.

https://www.starwars.com/news/6-of-palpatines-key-manipulations

"But Ridley Scott gives us a insight into the sequel, where he confirms the Engineers will return to this World and discover the devastation and would no doubt be looking for the culprit." BD

That must mean that either there is either another Engineer city on that planet or that there are other Engineers that live on another. There got to be more Engineers around than those that we saw in Alien Covenant.

I think that a lot of problems that are tied to the prequels come from not having a plan that they stuck to before they did Prometheus. The Engineers were disappointed in humanity so they would probably like to be as far away from them as possible, right? Why be on a planet that is so close to earth?

The problem to me is not to have David in the movie, he is alright but he is given too much of an importance. Ash was an important part and so was Bishop but they were never what the movies were about. Once they made the movie about the android and pushed everything else into the background that is when the movie got bad.

"Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?" - BD

That is one of the reasons but it is an important part.

"He was ambiguous in Prom, but in AC he becomes a hodge-podge of characteristics from Roy Batty (lines and is running around bare feet) and Hannibal Lecter, but not their redeeming qualities." - IgnorantGuy

He was better in Prometheus because then he was not totally evil, he was more in the gray zone but he became more evil in Alien Covenant which was a big mistake. What saved David in AC was the counterpart in Walter so we could compare those two and how they viewed things.

"I think the problem is that he has become the focal point." - DK

Yes! He has been like 65 to 70% of the story but that does not work. I can not connect with an evil android even though some think that is cool and new. Alien would have been the same thing if it would have been focused around Ash but thankfully it was not.

"... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?" - BD

New human characters that are interesting and well written there have been one or two well written human characters in each prequel this far but we need more than that. Think Alien 1 to 3, that is why those movies worked but then it fell apart for some reason.

"David may be an android but making the xeno and the eggs in the derelict his creation takes something away from that scene." - Ali81

Yeah since he is made by humans and he creates the eggs, that is a mistake and makes it less alien.

"… but is this something worth following..." - BD

If the movie do not have good human characters then it is nothing, especially if it is intended to be a horror movie. Well done horror movies are centered around interesting human characters (28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on). Imagine Night of the Living Dead being about a colony of Zombies and how they live their lives and so on, I would not watch that unfortunately that is the level that Alien Covenant reached.

"So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?" - BD

He went wrong when they made him into a Hanibal Lecter 2, in Prometheus he was more gray and that was better. Give him some sympathetic traits, I am not even sure if dictators are all through rotten even though that is not a reason to support them. They might be nice to their friends but that does not make them sympathetic, it is the same with David.
What is even worse is that there is a risk that he will be the creator of the original Xeno.

My complaint is not about Fassbender since he is a good actor, it is the material that is wrong and the total focus on David at the cost of everything else especially the Human characters.

"I also don't think that the films should center on his characters." - Ingeniero

A hundred times yes, I do not watch Alien movies for androids. I watch to see how well written human characters try to survive under extreme pressure and danger. This is the main thing what the movies are about if you ask me because without well done human characters then even the early movies would not have worked if you ask me.

He should die early in the movie so well made human characters would have to try to survive what ever nasty things that he has done. Maybe one of his monsters would turn on him and rip him into pieces like what happened to Bishop in Aliens or something. The difference is Bishop was nice and helpful and David is an asshole. I would like the next movie to include David being killed by one of his creations since it could make up for the total focus on David in Alien Covenant (at least if we look at how the second part became) and be sort of ironic.

To sum it up

    1. The total focus on David at the cost of everything else is wrong
    2. The way that he is portrayed, as a megalomaniac is bad
    3. That he will eventually be the one that is responsible for the original Xenomorph is something that I really dislike.
    4. It could be somewhat saved by killing him early in the next movie and let well made human characters take over no matter if he is redeemed or not.

The one with the hoodie looks like the sacrificial Engineer from Prometheus. It also reminds me a bit about the emperor in Star wars 6. Maybe the Engineers would look better without ears, that would make them more different.

Alien 3 in their alternate versions would be alright as comics and the same goes for the Blomkamp thing, I just don't think that they should be done into movies. If Blomkamp would do an alien movie then I hope that it will be a spin-off, not set in the official timeline.

To answer the question: I would like to see the wooden planet, that would be interesting. They talked about the planet in the Perfect Organism podcast.

That depends on how authoritarian their society is. If they have not been used to think for themselves they might get dizzy and worried and so they do not know what to do. Xenos in panic with fitting headache, stomach pains, dizziness and so on. The once dangerous Xeno army is now reduced to a bunch of constipated, sweating bunch of creatures hysterically crying. ;)

I seriously think that egg-morphing seems interesting, it would also be awesome if it would be based on something real in nature.

Having different kind of Xenos is something that I like but then you can wonder how come there are different kinds. Lack of attention to things like that might be a problem but at the same time it is interesting.

No Alien 5 please, I am not interested in another Ripley movie. I understand that some people like Ripley and I think that she did fine in Alien 1 to 3 but to me she is done. Her ending in Alien 3 is fitting and I am very much against that they erase that.

I am not very interested in Alien Versus Predator. None of those movies have been very good although I have only watched AVP, not AVPR.

"I think a AVP Reboot is more likely at the Moment."

Another way to say that Scott and Fox effed it up. Maybe a spin-off but let them hire a director with interesting ideas (keep Scott out, I am tired of his David thing) and maybe do a spin-off about Humans and Engineers. They probably can not make it worse than they have already with AR and the prequels even though Prometheus was OK. Get some writers that can write Human characters and a director that gives a damn about that or else forget it. No movie after Alien 3 is better than a 2 out of 5 to me.

"… with a Space Fairing Humanoid Race…"  

That could easily be misread as Space Farting. ;)

In space no one can hear you fart. :D

" … others Do-Not want to be left with the Lingering Truth that David Created the Xenomorph."  

No more prequel if it will stick to that crap.

"… this would be so much of a David movie and no Characters…"

No thanks, I have no interest what so ever in a movie like that if it means another movie where they just focus on a mad robot. I can not feel anything for a psycho. To get a bit emotional: they can take that shit and shove it. I want a good prequel not one that is like Prometheus or AC, can't we at least have one good prequel, or is that too much to ask for?

"… covenant was the movie with most blown potential since the SW prequels/new triology…"

That is interesting that you would mention that, I am not a huge fan of those either. SW episode 2 and 3 are alright but 1 is not good at all. AC and Prometheus are like the SW prequels in quality. Alien 1 to 3 are like SW 4-6 in comparison which is a good thing according to my way of looking at it.

"What kind of a World would David Create?"

I am not very interested in that

"Movie will be less Xenomorph and Focus on AI"

If they make new monsters and replace the Xeno with that then OK but they must work in the context of the movie. What kind of AI that means is not certain but if it means more David androids then no thanks.

Seeing how the Engineers will respond to what David has done could be interesting. Hopefully they will do something gruesome to him which would make the head-ripping in Prometheus look nice.

"… a lot of Fans are not pleased on the David Story and the Plot being about him and his Creations."

I do not like that at all, that is a big mistake that the prequels have done this far. I also do not want another David versus the crew kind of thing, we already had that in Covenant at the end and that was eh.

IgnorantGuy: I liked to see the difference between David and Walter but I agree that it was a bit too much of Fassbender and it was definitely too much androids talking about things. Hopefully we will get better characters the next time and that they will be given more screen-time so it will not be as much about Fassbender and David. Yes he seems to be a good actor but there are also other people and characters there that deserve to get bigger roles instead of being given third place or what ever (being pushed into the background). Give us better human characters and less androids.

Awesome thanks for the share daliens! 

I embedded the link to the page and added a quick photo :)

daliens It seems there is no answer to what a soul is. We cannot see a picture of one or even have hard evidence. So it seems to come down to faith- which should not be confused with fact.

I lean towards no afterlife or soul for those reasons but subject matter like this makes for some of the most interesting sci fi discussions.

I'm pretty sure there was no oversight if they wanted the Planet 4 Engineers to look like the ones from Prometheus (pale skin, black eyes etc.) they would make them like that. I think that with Planet 4 Engineers they wanted to show us that there are different races of engineers that live a different way of life, have different religion etc. If there are different human races of different appearances, living different ways of life, why can't engineers have that?

I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be explored in the original Prometheus 2 before the story was changed into what we got.

Imagine if some aliens met with these astronauts on some space station

And then those aliens landed somewhere on Earth, for example on Indian peninsula and found these humans gathered around their spaceship, welcoming them.

With LV-223 Engineers I think they wanted to show us, like you mentioned BD, that they are more enhanced beings. This was also done way before I think in other films/video games. I already mentioned somewhere the Neo-sapiens, for another example, I can think of Tyrants from Resident evil, which are bioweapons created by the umbrella corp. They are pretty much strong, bald humanoids in trench coats. And there were different models/variations of tyrants, some had greater intelligence, some were bigger, stronger etc.

This one is a bigger, enhanced version done by the Eastern Slav rep. from RE Damnation. They are 14'0".

If their bodies sustain enough damage, they will mutate into their super forms.

ALIEN 3 is great

"How is Bishop going to "sneak an egg or two on board without Ripley knowing about it"? And if he did so, why did he risk his 'mission' to wait around for Ripley and Newt when the sensible thing to do would be fly off back to the Sulaco and sic a hugger on the comatose Hicks." - SM

Very good point.

However, since we're not in possession of all the facts, we are left to assume.

He could have hidden it/them somewhere on board where they wouldn't be noticeable to Ripley.

Also, maybe he'd been ordered (by Burke?) to obtain a queen and he knew the only way he could do that is by impregnating a female using a face hugger. (Maybe the only way to obtain a queen is through the impregnation of a female host?) Maybe that's why he goes back for Ripley and Newt.

Bishop probably would have obtained the egg/s via the derelict.

He would also have had time to do so.

From the time he gets to the drop-ship remote control to the time Hicks contacts him to ask how long till pick up, many scenes have passed, so probably a lot of time has passed. That would have afforded him enough time to get the drop-ship down to the surface. Pilot it to the derelict. Pick up egg/s. Take egg/s to the sulaco. Get back to the surface and first pick up Hicks and then later Ripley and Newt.   

It's messed up for sure. But if we're going to try to make any sense of who, how and why the eggs got on board the Sulaco we have to look at the most likely suspect and for me, that suspect is Bishop.

Like I said in an earlier post, he is created by the Company. The Company will stop at nothing to obtain the organism. Therefore, It would make perfect sense that they would create him with the intention of obtaining the trust of humans to cover up his true intentions (Company intentions.) 

Good mix, PB and Chocolate:

Bad mix but cool figure, Joker Xeno:

Follow up question:

If this AI outlives humans, what might become their purpose for proliferation?

daliens What is death? A basic definition is "a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life." If something lives on after that, could it really be dead?

I think while the Alien Covenant Engineers looked a bit different, i feel the intention was for them to be similar to those in Prometheus and so a majority of the differences are a Oversight.

Here are some of David's Studies of the Male and Female Engineers and we can see the Features are more in line with Prometheus rather than what must have a been a Cost Saving Oversight for those we saw in the Bombardment Scene.

The point i am raising is Regardless of the Look, the Alien Covenant and Prometheus Engineers i feel were intended to be more similar, indeed there are some differences.  But the intention was for those Strong Bone Structures, Roman Nose etc.  Ridley Scott called the Planet 4 Engineers the Originals.

So sorry for Hijacking the Thread... ;)

I have a Question.....  IF we explore another Race related to the Engineers or above them, what kinds of previous concept designs would people on here like to see INCORPORATED for such a New Race?

This particular piece although steep for many, actually seems pretty fair considering size, materials and detail.

Thanks for sharing- always nice to see art/merch like this.

 If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David. Bingo! Thus David and Synths could be considered valid people or persons.

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories We have no proof of this for humans but the notion of a soul for these points could be the "cloud"? It is at least real and verifiable.

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action). It seems this notion can easilly be put to bed: (2 1/2 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttmsiU-GZlg

Indeed....

Why there is a potential for this expanded Universe, which i think RS was keen to explore such Philosophical Themes and Steer away from ALIEN but alas.......  FOX wanted a more Straight Up Prequels with Xenomorphs.

I had posted some theories on here prior to Alien Covenant regarding Weyland and David and i brought them up because my idea for Prometheus 2 which i canned Mid 2014, i was exploring what is  a SOUL.

And a Soul is basically... (these can be expanded to be more than 4 main ways to define what Soul means).

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories.

*A Person who has a Kind, Caring and Giving Nature and are Not Selfish (that person has a Good Soul).

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action).

The First One is the Mysterious One... The Big One... and One we dont really have the Answers for, and the ONE that David could never have...  HOWEVER.... If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David.

The other 3 can apply to David, by his Actions his Deeds...

But the one i was tackling was the 2nd One...

If David has many years of Emotions, Memories and Experiences, when David is Destroyed... if his Memories, Experiences etc can be uploaded to ANOTHER Android Body then David would in effect HAVE the Soul that can Live on After-Death and David would be Immortal to a degree.

It was my theory and what i was exploring with my Prometheus 2, that Weyland's Objective with David was to Create the Perfect Physical Vessel...  a Being that was nearly Perfect compared to Humans.

Weyland was then also working on a Project Called (Project Rook) that was to Upload Weylands Soul... his Memories, Experiences and Emotions into a AI... so that then when Weyland Perfected this.. he could combine this with a Synthetic Host and BECOMES IMMORTAL

It would have been Revealed in my Prometheus 2 that this Project was Flawed and Weyland Could not create a AI that could Handle Complex Emotions and Memories and so the Weyland AI would become Unstable and go Insane....   Thus Weyland Abandoned this Project..

He then resorted to Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings as a LAST Ditched Effort to gain Eternal Life from our Makers...  The End of my Prometheus 2.... the Vickers Android would be able to Activate Project Rook before her Final Encounter with TWO Yutani Geisha Synthetic Assassins (She defeats them but she is wounded and revealed she is a Synthetic and thus can-not inherit the Company).

But the Rook Project is Activated and Weylands AI is uploaded to the System...  which leads to the reveal that Weylands AI is running the Show as far as the Companies Agenda in the Franchise and most of Humanity is not in the know....  Bit Matrix i know ;)

So there are interesting ways AI can be involved with the Franchise, but the Problem is MOST Fans will only ever see that the Xenomorph is the Franchise... while Ridley Scott was trying to explore something else..

My Prometheus 3 however would have brought the Engineers more into it... 

I saw that. If I was serious, I would wait until 4th quarter. Otherwise I wouldn't start paying for something that turns out to be a scam. Wouldn't be the first time.

I think little Easter Eggs are ok, but taking it a bit too far seems Goofy..

Mind you i never enjoyed the Guardians of the Galaxy, or the New Spider-man... way too Goofy...   Mind you i wonder what a Chest Busted DeadPool would be like lol

Indeed there was a lot of Evolution to the Concept of the Engineers.

The 6 Digits designs are interesting as we could have explored a related Race with 6 Digits and having this be why the Xenomorph has the same. But as Alien Covenant gave us the route where we see Davids Xenomorph and the Neomorphs (i am sure) had 6 Digits to.  But this could be down to a different version of the Cargo compared to the Outpost in Prometheus. (If each of the 5 Temple Mounds had different versions).

I think its something interesting to explore in Future, if we get a more Not So Human Race introduced to us, that are the size of the Space Jockey

I might see a red flag. How about payment for a finished product?

@BigDave

It's ironic the timing of the reference, that Fox is being acquired by Disney, I wonder what's next.  Maybe in the next Spider-Man movie, a marching band plays the Fox fanfare as a joke or something like that. Nonetheless, I loved the reference. I would love Fassbender or Sigourney Weaver to play a villain in a future Spider-Man movie. 

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.

It would be interesting to see how things would play out if the franchise discovered that there is emperically no such thing as a soul - that could solidly place David on equal footing with humans.

I think the artists that worked Prometheus was given freedom when designing the Engineers, but they also worked from Ridley's comments (big, bald, pale humanoids). Carlos Huante and other artists did a bunch of early Engineer concept artworks that Ridley wasn't really satisfied with. But after awhile, it was all about that one image Carlos Huante did, which was based on the state of David. And Ridley loved it so other artists started working from that.

This was it:

In Jon Spaiht's script, they were described as 15'+ tall, pale, earless beings with black hollow eyes.

And this was the newer design (still based on Carlos' design), somewhat closer to the Engineers we've seen in the film.

Did you notice the xenomorph type hands? Most definitely not human...

Here is another montage i made to post here before.