New Replies (Page 626)

@ Thombach

That tree is from a slightly altered plan to the Johns Spaiths version. Johns Spaiths version didn't include a "Trilobite", it had the "Sexburster" which became the "Belugamorph". Also there was no mention of "liquid" with Johns Spaiths, or "hammerhead eels". It seems like it's part way between Spaiths' and Lindelof's scripts.

thombach, ah I get what u mean. never really understood that part of the movie tbh. though it does look like the bodies have been purposefully pilled up so someone has done this which may explain the lack of facehugger bodies as their bodies could be elsewhere

@ Thombach

The black goo has a different effect with each genome it interacts with. I think with the engineers it is quickly lethal, but causes them to quickly produce a parasite also, as we see with David's bombing. I think the engineers in the temple suffered the same fate as the ones David bombed. Some of the goo got out and infected them somehow. We don't need to see the parasites lying about..they could have walked off and died some place else.

Soth, that family tree chart is from Johns Spaiths version, which had all the chest burster stuff in it. Lindelof dropped all that and just made the worms mutate. 

I would welcome a director's cut, BUT I honestly thought that none of those scenese were really needed. I think finding a place for the Daniels/Jacob flashback, putting the whole, "The Crossing," prologue in David's flashback, the flare in the hangar, and (if it had been completed) the Neomorph v. Xenomorph deal when the remaining few people escaped the planet could all end up being good additions. Still though, I don't really know how much better the experience would actually be with those additions. 

Ali81, Not the Engineers in the pods. I mean the dead ones in the passages that Fifield and Milburn found. They were exploded from the inside.

yogi, cool. I cant see it as AVPG comes under games and is blocked at my work. but I take concept art with a pinch of salt. to me neither u nor bigdave are wrong, its open to interpretation imo as many things that are concept art don't exist. its concept, such as the balugamorph, all the other concepts of the engineers ships, the first draft etc.

thombach, we don't see inside the other engineer pods in Prometheus so several theoris could be possible here such as facehuggers burned their way into the pods while the engineers slept. the bodies are still inside the pods. the engineers wake, leave the pods and some time later a neomorph or xeno erupts from their chests. this may be what the engineers are running from and would explain the shreek in the holovid the crew see?

@I Moon Girl, no apologies for your long posts please. They are most interesting.

You appear to have constructed some of your argument from the book, which talks about gravitational distortion precluding earlier detection of the energy event (the movie does not). In fact, the book actually contradicts the movie by having Mother declare that she detected an energy burst of heavy particles (no mention of neutrinos at all). Which is somewhat annoying.

In respect of supernovae, they really can be discounted as a source because they are very rare events indeed. In our galaxy of 200 billion stars, it's confirmed they only happen at the rate of about once or twice a century. They are so powerful, that we would see them on Earth when they happen anywhere in our galaxy. Novae, on the other hand, which are known to yield neutrino bursts, are a weekly occurrence.

You might want to check out Ask Science on reddit. There are plenty of knowledgable science professionals there who will tell you what is needed to produce a neutrino.

@ ali81

It's listed with a bunch of Prometheus concept art here - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=308

I think the natural evolution was to finish off the series first so id have alien, aliens, alien3 then the prequel. ripley was still alive after aliens and the series was following her story. people may have wanted a different film than what we got but apart from that they needed imo to finish off her story. if resurrection had never taken place I don't think many would have screemed for another film with ripley so the prequel trilogy could have fitted in nicely after alien3

@BigDave - When you said Lindelof quote I thought you were referring to the Lindelof quote we were just discussing yesterday.

The Hammerpedes may eventually infect people with a chest burster or something similar, but I don't think any of the film makers ever said that. If just seems the goo altered their DNA and mutated them into something else.

Something infected all those dead Engineers though. They all had burst holes in the chests. They were all running toward the temple room when they died though. That means the accident that released the virus happened somewhere else in the dome. They were all chest bursted but we don't see dead facehuggers lying around. I think they may have been infected with something small and fast like the mote insects that produced the neomorphs.

@ BigDave

I just watched the goo bombing scene for the 5th time in a row and i can see no evidence of black goo "swarming" or "flying round" engineers. It is raining down on them..because it was dropped on them.

Ok I just found and read the script myself, it does appear John Logan is refering to Macro view in terms of lens, so yes its zoomed in. I didn't have the context because I didn't have the script. So yeah, looks like those mote insects can change shape, in early production of this movie at least. *Shrugs* changes nothing for me, they are still separate from the black goo and the black goo does not swarm.

who made the xeno family tree?

@alienfan1980 - I got the exact same impression when the last Engineer 'Bob' almost seemed to smile at David, before ripping his head off!  Great post, as I also believe the Engineers have a strong aversion to AI, too.  I hope to see more about why they do, in further installments of the franchise.  Up Voted!!

@BigDave

Nope, the hammerpedes were never intended to be xenomorph "ancestors". They were and are something seperate. See this old production diagram of creature relations. Note the fact that hammerpedes give rise to "centipede"s, just as mutant Holloway gave rise to the trilobite. -

yes I asked about it kethol and I do think the idea was good and should have made it into the film. but ur posts gave me the impression u were adding something that does not exist into the movie to add weight to ur argument.

I like it like this

http://www.figures.com/2017/01/13/photo-review-kotobukiya-alien-big-chap-artfx-statue/

I just could not resist to buy this beauty.

Regarding the Mystery...

I think to some degree maybe FOX in Hindsight feel some things should have been kept a Mystery... Prometheus explored more so the Space Jockey Race and opened up a whole Creation/Gods like Plot...  

For some this was not a good route to take, for others they felt it was interesting and expanded the Universe and it left some Big Questions.. 

Prometheus had set up clues, which are not as SPOON FED as some would like...  which was to show the Engineers played a part in our Creation... we just never know WHY!

These Engineers then had been conducting Experiments on LV-223 with the Black Goo that was connected to some Xenomorph like Organisms and clues are it is connected to the Xenomorph but it was never SPOON FED... HOW

It was left Ambiguous to WHY the Engineers Created this stuff... but it appeared even if the Intention was not only to just use on MANKIND..  The Engineers had intended to use it on US.

WHY? Because we had done something to upset them, and had not turned out the way they intended (there is a whole debate to go into details for this) but there was a Point the Engineers some 2000 years ago just decided they needed to Wipe the Slate Clean and use the Black Goo to Destroy us.

But the movie is ambiguous that we can never 100% be sure if this was a Act to Destroy us completely, or a act to Evolve us into something Else.  

And so many Questions remain as for more Details to WHY.. and Dr Shaw had Questions that was kind of answered, this being WHY they want to destroy us...  but others was never answered such as WHY they Created us...   The movie hints via dialog with David/Holloway at possible reasons but these are never from the Engineers Mouth...  so there is a lot of Mystery to explore.

Why was we created?  What changed the Engineers minds to need to Destroy us?   Was the sole Purpose of LV-223 just to create a Weapon of Mass Destruction to be used on Earth, or was their more to it than that...

Who created the Engineers?

These are things that many hoped a Prometheus Sequel would cover... but they would mean the Xenomorph would be a lesser part.

So things was changed...    ALIEN had TWO Mysteries... The Space Jockey and those Eggs... and Why/How the TWO ended up being there....   This was the Premise of the Prequels

These evolved to Prometheus that felt that expanding on the Space Jockey, and hinting at  this Race Creating/Experimenting on some Horrific Biological Warfare that somehow seems connected to the Xenomorph was more important than Spoon Feeding the Eggs Creation and Derelict Event.

They now seem maybe this route was a mistake of sorts and that covering the WHY as far as the Cargo and how it came to be and what it was intended for is what they should have covered and not gone into exploring the Engineers or giving a vague experiment connected to the Xenomorph.

So as  YOG mentions, those simplistic Questions are kind of Answered.

SPACE JOCKEY... Why that Cargo?

Answer this Race had Created us, and felt at some point they should Undo this Creation and they used LV-223 to Facilitate a Weapon that would be used to Create us.   WHY?  this is a bit open to debate, but its simply they felt we had done something or turned out to be something Against their Original idea/plan and its a case of Wipe that Slate Clean.

So the Answer from Alien is... the Space Jockey was a Ancient Race, who was involved with Mankind, but then saw Mankind as a Flawed Project, maybe even felt Threatened and so they attempted to Destroy us by Creating Bio-Logical Weapons. 

This does not answer the Xenomorph though... and so along comes Alien Covenant to show that the Space Jockey Races Experiments/Black Goo which they could not control/contain has been used by Mankinds Creation to Destroy those Engineers (those on Planet 4) and then from the results David experimented and Created a Perfect Organism he intends to use as a Weapon to Destroy all Humanoid Life.

Thus the whole, where did the Black Goo come from, why did the Engineers Create us, and want to Destroy us as far as in detail and who created the Engineers... are not things that i feel will not be explored and left to MYSTERY

It is now the Path of David and how from TWO Face Huggers he can amass a Army of Xenomorph Eggs and then the Big Question NOW is How does these Eggs get onto a Engineer Ship, from where did this Ship come from and how those Eggs become Thousands and end up on that Ship... and who is the Pilot.

These are now the only things the Prequels will concentrate on i feel.

hahahaha couple of games of scabby queen perhaps?

But David does mention some grotesque Engineer ritual. But probably no telling if he just meant the facehugger type of ritual, or something that we haven't seen yet, like with that face-plant thing.

I really like this perspective on the Engineers.  It's simple, yet goes with all of the motifs in the franchise.  It also sounds like what Ridley Scott is interested in portraying (the AI vs evolution/or maybe the same thing). I forgot where I read it, but it said the Engineers had helped humanity along the way with technology and intelligence (or something along those lines).  That would fit that they returned periodically to make adjustments or progression if everything is going well.  I like the idea of seeding many planets as "playing the odds."  Although, now I'm thinking that sounds too much like "quantity over quality."  If creating a new form of life on a planet was so pertinent, I would think they would invest more time and effort into guiding the evolution of these creations.

I like your perspective on this though.  Very thought provoking.

iraptus, yea the neomorph much like the xenomorph would def be strongest in a 'swarm' as u say, like in aliens although JC did show that any individual xeno could be killed just as easily as any human given the right equipment, they were still extremely dangerous once there was a large number of the to overwhelm an enemy esp in closed quarters such as a facility.

awe thanks blackwater, was my first try and as I said I had more but thought I needed to reign it in a bit as I didn't want it to be too long.

@Thombach

Sorry i dont mean as far as what they was becoming, i meant as far as comments he has made in the past alluding to the Purpose of the Hammerpedes... and the one comment in particular could be taken as ambiguous meaning the Black Goo infects people, but it would say its was less ambiguous and hinted that the Hammepredes could infect people.

This maybe they perform a similar task to the Face Hugger which would fit within context to the whole Alien Life Cycle and while we never see this in the movie.. it makes Logical Sense and exploring this would have given us more CLUES between the Black Goo and Xenomorph... which is where my Re-work of Prometheus attempted to add such things back into it.

Macro when we are talking about Optics... is about viewing something as Small as we can with the Naked Eye... and seeing something that we do-not need additional Magnification

So a Macro View is looking at something from a Camera Perspective or Persons Own Visual Perspective as close as we can.   Where we get as close as we can to detail, without the need for for additional Magnification.

In context to the Draft, it is implying a Close Up view of the Motes.

As far as the Bombardment goes, i have not seen Alien Covenant now for over 11 weeks maybe 12 weeks and i had only seen in 3 Times at the Box Office.

But what i recall (and i have not seen in repeated detail or ability to pause etc as a Home Viewing can).  Is the Urns explode and it rains down Black Goo.

This seams to rain on Engineers and then after the first few are covered the rest of the stuff does seem to have some Inteligence to how it seeks out the Engineers, like it is homing in and swarming....  i recall seeing some of it appear as particles that fly off and buzz around the Engineers.

The Engineers skin is like attacked by this and then the Engineers start to Spew Forth from their Mouths, and Nostrils Black Liquid like Substance, and then some appear to have parts of their body break open where the Liquid takes a Intelligent Shape much like the Life-form from the Movie THE ABYSS before it then turns again into liquid.

Once i have the DVD/Blu-ray i can study it more in depth.

BigDave, I don't think what Lindelof said was meant to be ambigous. If you watch Prometheus and listen to his commentary when the camera pans down and shows the worms moving around in the goo, he tells you exactly what they are going to become. The same worms are shown crawling through the same dirt earlier in the scene, before the urns start to leak.

ali81, I'm pretty sure Ash said that too about the facehugger's blood neutralizing upon death. As to the acid burns, in the novelization, David 8 had a xenomorph in his lab too on display.

If the neomorph biology is similar to the facehugger/xenomorph, then the neomorph blood could have been neutralized by the time David 8 began dissecting.

I guess David 8 may blow on their nose, then play cards with the neomorph and xenomorph until they die in a couple of days...then he cuts them up.

The Lindeloff Quote can be taken as ambiguous, due to the way it was worded, but it does point more on the side of the Hammerpede being able to infect people.

Lindeloff did say the Hammerpedes play a role in the Xeno Origins, well he teased this.. i cant remember word for word and which interview it was.. and it was a bit ambiguous as it came across as just his personal interpretation... he also said the Deacon was a Xenomorph Ancestor.

We do-not however know if this was via the clues in Prometheus or if indeed RS/Lindeloff had actually discussed in depth the Deacon/Hammerped/LV-223 Connection to the Xenomorph.

I always felt the Hammerpedes could be a strong candidate and even made  few posts/topics on the Xeno/Hammerpede Connection.

And the basis of the Deacon being a Ancestor to the Xenomorph...  this is basically not a Direct Ancestor as far as the events of Prometheus..  But more so that the Deacon Mural Predated the Dr Shaw ==> Deacon at the end of the movie.

And the Hammerpedes Predated the Prometheus mission and so those Worms + Black Goo = Hammerpedes... be it the year 2093, the year 200 BC/AD or any year the result would be the same.

And so the potential for Hammerpedes in the past is high, and if those worms are similar to worms on Earth, then they are likely Egg Layers/Producing.  And so infected with the Black Goo, the Hammerpedes could very likely have Eggs.

Then we have to ask why did it attack Milburns Mouth?

There was a Outbreak 2000 years ago, and maybe Worms could have been infected before... maybe this explains the Cryo-Pod Chest Busted Engineers?  and maybe this is what Lindeloff hinted at?

My Re-write of Prometheus which i abandoned did show Hammerpede Eggs, and did have Milburn Chest Burst a kind of Xeno/Neomorph Chest Buster.  I was visioning using this Prometheus concept work.

Well basically it would be similar to the Alien Chest Buster but using the color scheme of the Hammerpede, with a head like some of the Prometheus concept works.. that the Neomorph also was designed from

Drucea, if you read the script or look at Kethol's quote from it, every time it describes the mote cloud, then says MACRO VIEW, it describes a zoomed in close up of one insect in the cloud. It is not even questionable.

Hox, the macro function on my camera is for a zoomed in view also.

Kethol, I know, I know. I was just trying to help him understand.

@chli - Based on interviews, all the writers worked on their drafts with Ridley separately. Paglen was first, then Green re-wrote that initial story, then Harper did a re-write, then John Logan.

@Thombach

The Alien Prefix is a attempt by FOX/RS to connect the Prequels now more with Alien as far as bringing back Xenomorphs and explain their Origins and the Alien Prefix is also to show people that these movies are ALIEN ones and not Prometheus ones.

As i think FOX are concerned for Marketing Reasons a Prometheus 2 sequel or even a movie that does not have Prometheus in it or Alien, would maybe not be something that could gain as much interest.

My taking the route now to explore the Xenomorph Origin in a more Direct and Spoon Fed way and now Re-introducing the Xenomorph, FOX hoped this would gain more interest than Prometheus did and by Prefixing the ALIEN: it is to Market and Show potential viewers that these Movies are now more Directly connected to ALIEN..

@Chli

Indeed this was just going to be a Flaw Really, a lot of people felt Prometheus had some Dumb Decisions, some felt Oram made a Dumb Decision..  We could see Daniels Questions Orams Decision to investigate Planet 4.

If the Signal was exactly as in Logans Draft, then the Covenant Crew you would expect would be pretty much Extremely Cautious they would even have to Question is rescuing ONE Person worth the risk of 2000 Colonist plus 1000 embryos?

The only way such a Plot would Logically make sense if they went this route, would be if Oram had a secret Weyland Agenda and play the Burke from Aliens kind of role.

Also the Shaw SOS where she says she was seeing death, contradicts a bit the explanations of what happened to Shaw, she could not have seen the death as she described.

But then i have only had ONE Quick Read of this Daft.

In photography, macro is zoomed in. But if the script is referring a macro view of something, that would be zoomed out.

With the Prequels done in a way that likely connects and concludes the Xenomorph Creation as far as the LV-426 Eggs and the Space Jockey/Derelict and how the company knew about LV-426 as far as Special Order 937.

Then it does leave a few things to explore... as far as other movies, that are Prequels to the Prequel, Side Plots or Future movies or even distantly related.  Here are a few Examples.

*What becomes of LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 by the Time of Alien?  As all of these are avenues of Engineer Tech, the Black Goo and Xenomorph connected Organisms.   If these are all Null/Void Avenues by the Time of Aliens.. hence the pursuit of Hadleys Hope, and then Ripley for the Xenomorph.

Then maybe a movie can explore why/when these places no longer Yield anything of use. (If the Prequels do not conclude this).

*The Weyland-Yutani History as far as Rivalry, maybe even leading to the Merger, as these TWO companies were competitors and no doubt had their own History/Agenda and Goals... and then at the time of Alien Covenant they are entwined together.

A Parallel Prequels could cover aspects of the Companies that are not related to chasing after Xenomorphs...  (i think the ADF Alien Covenant Prequel Book could cover this a little).

*A Alien Resurrection Sequel... directly after the events of Alien R which would imply on Earth, but then Miss Weaver is very Aged now.. but i can think of ways around this ;)  But a Alien 5 that follows this Time-Line would not be anything New or Fresh...   Ripley and the Xenomorph have been done a bit.

*Engineers History, this one is very Vast in Scope, because exploring the Engineers does not have to revolve around Creation on Earth, or even Planet 4..  If these Engineers and their Creators are a Ancient Race who have seeded/created life within the whole Galaxy or even other Galaxies... then the scope to do stories based on Engineers and other Creations in other parts of the Universe is near Limitless.

*Parallel Alien Stories within the whole Alien Covenant to Alien Resurrection Time-line..  By the time we get to Aliens in the year 2179 is the only Engineer Technology/Black Goo and Xenomorph Related Organisms only available from the Derelict on LV-426?

How many worlds did the Engineers and that Black Goo manage to infect, or attempt to?  Are all Technology/Black Goo or Xenomorph related Organisms totally eradicated by the time of Aliens?

If so there are other ways to bring Xeno related Organisms back in a fresh way...

I had been working a few years ago on TWO Such Plots/Stories..

One Connects to Alien R as a Failed Ripley 7 Queen is sent to another outpost for experiments.

The other a Mining Colony discovers a Burried Cave System with Cocoon like Organisms that contain a Xeno-strain related Organism, and then revealed a Engineer Ship is also buried and these Engineers had came across these Cocoons and attempting to take them off this world.

So one was a way to bring back a more fresh and different Xenomorph related threat... the other a hint at maybe Events that lead to the Engineers Experiments on LV-223

Prometheus 100%. The plot actually does something. Covenant is fun but aside from David getting on board with the facehugger embryos, there is very little plot movement. Covenant = more deaths. Prometheus = mystery and pure sci fi

A macro lens in photography is used to take extreme close-up pictures. I have a very good one myself.

You are wasting your time Thombach :)

She is describing the bombing, so she must have sent the distress message after the Juggernaut crashed and David later used it to lure a ship. I wonder why the did not use that message in the movie?

They don't find Shaw's mutilated body in this script like they did in the movie. David's says he used a face hugger on her so that must have been how she died.

Yes. Never say never. I mean, RS was tinkering with Blade Runner for decades, not to mention the very late arrival of the Alien Director's Cut.

Regarding the Soul.....

The Engineers Dialog in the Sacrificial Scene did have a Line where the SOUL was referenced.   The Elder Engineer had this dialog prior to giving the Sacrificial Bowl/Cup

"Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters, and may your soul become their way back to us".

But as this was cut, it does not mean it now applies...

I think we need to look at the concept of a Soul...

A Soul can be to judge how Good of Heart and Kind a Person is and how they would put others needs before their own. A Person with a Good Soul.

A Soul is also for some the actual Spirit of a Person, that will live on in After Life, when we die... This is something we can not 100% Prove... and this is a Big Question that Prometheus was trying to show us... to get us to ask is there a Soul etc.

The other way to look at a Soul, is a persons Emotions, Personality and Memories/Experiences as these in turn make each person unique, its these experiences that Mold the kind of Person we are and they are what determines what kind of Soul we have..

If the above are all just Experiences that are stored in our Brain and effect our Emotions and Personality... then as Alien Covenant was trying to show....  we see such things have AFFECTED David... and so if a Soul is determined by this... then in essence David has a SOUL

But it is not a Spiritual Soul that goes on to the Afterlife... but then the movies are touching upon things like ... do we really have such a Spiritual Soul?

So when we look at the Engineers, their whole Culture seems based on Sacrifice and for the Greater Good and leaving a Legacy because when we eventually Do Die... if there is no Soul/After Life, then it is our works that we will Live on Eternally for.

Our Legacy is our Children who can pass on stories/history and belongings etc...   Another Legacy is becoming Famous and Well Known... for either Creative Arts... (Artist, Musician, Actors, Poets, Authors) etc...  Or due to hold a High Public Figure such as Royalty, or Political Achievements or Military or other Deeds, where you would be remembered and also things such as Inventions and Creations.

These are all Legacies that can leave a Person to be remembered and famous after Death, and many of such people will have Monuments or similar built in their name.

This is where the Ozymandias  poem can come to play..

And so the Engineers likewise are all about Legacy and Sacrifice, and i think this is why they have all those Statues in the Plaza etc.

The Engineers visited Mankind and Taught us stuff, they are the so called Gods, but they are not the GOD of the Bible, or Jesus and they are not no route for Mankind to enter a place like Heaven and live on forever..

so within context to the Movies, it could be the notion of such Religious aspects that Mankind has, are something the Engineers taught us and something they may see as Blasphemous.   where we hang on to our Lives just to gain access to Eternal Life.... and where Sacrifice is not so important to us and we just, hang on to a notion that a Divine Being (Jesus) had Sacrificed for us.

So if in Context to the Movies, there is no actual After-Life, no whole Christian Philosophy that worship and remembering the Sacrifice of a Divine Being, God in Carnation will Gain Mankind Eternal Life...

To the Engineers this kind of Belief is something they may find Offensive.... and our Real Creation Agenda could be something pretty sinister and mundane.

And so maybe when we look at David and as Holloway had mentioned, he was created because WE Mankind Could, and his Purpose is to Serve and Perform Tasks so Mankind no longer has to and his Creation (David) is something that gives Weyland a Legacy...  

And so Androids were not created to start to Live their Lives how they want to, and to think of themselves as Equal or Greater than their Creators... and never supposed to Create for themselves and Never to Grace such things as Mankind is supposed to which include a Soul etc

Well the Engineers Purpose for us and how they see us, is maybe the same as Mankind sees David... and who knows if the Engineers Creators look down to the Engineers in the same Fashion.

I agree with everything Timmy wrote. Excellent idea!