LV223 or LV426, which came first?

The mural clearly shows standard facehuggers, so we know they already existed. I believe the ship on LV-426 has been there for millenia. (before events in Prometheus.)

The dead space jockey in the original alien is fossilized, this is stated by one of the charachters. everybody with a bit of common knowledge knows that process takes a lot longer than 30 years.

@Korpen Well sorry for not having common sense. 'fossilized'? If anything it's mummified.

The atmosphere of LV-426 is unknown before the terraforming. Maybe on that atmosphere the corps mummified or fossilized sooner like on Earth. This is a sci-fi, a movie, anything can happen. I think we will learnt from the sequel(s). What if, the Derelict ship was comed from the planet of the Engineers after Shaw arrived, and they want to destroy the Earth again. At the end of the sequel, an Engineer (maybe the last of his people) get in a ship what is full whit eggs and he want to go to Earth, and he is want to go faster as he can, because he has an alien inside him already, i don't think a fachugger can hug an Engineer who is wearing the bio-mechanical "elephant" suit. The alien is bursting his chest near to the LV-426 and crashed on it. Shaw and David is on the ship and David switch on the warning message what the Nostromo will got later. This is my theory. Maybe this will happen, maybe the ship on the LV-426 for centuries. We will saw it.

aramaki@ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDRLtgr2T9E 00:46 seconds in to the clip "looks like its been dead a long time,...fossilized." im sorry if you tought i ment you didnt have common sense. i see now how my comment was written, easy to missunderstand. english is not my mothertounge.

@ Korpen, Sorry, but Aramaki is right... Dallas in Alien referred to the dead Engineer as a fossil, when it in fact was not - it was a decayed, mummified suit. the reason he stated the word "fossil" is because he thought (as did we) that he was seeing the skeletal remains of a long dead alien creature - most people associate skeletal remains with the displays of dinosaurs and prehistoric animals in natural history museums, of which we know are sourced from fossils, hence Dallas' statement. Had Ash been present or able to view what they saw he would have corrected Dallas. Fossilization requires layers of sediment above and below the remains of a dead organism, with further additional layers applied on top of the uppermost layers for the act of fossilization to occur, ask any geologist or paleontologist. This is not what we saw in Alien, ergo no Fossilization. Furthermore, it is even evident in Gigers sculpture that the creature was not fossilized - check the detail on the shoulders, find me the jaw bone.

Yes it is a process that requires some kind of surrounding material - sometimes ice to convert it to minerals. But I would guess that Ridley did not have the same idea for the engineers as he does now back then and he might of been trying to say its been there for a very very long time and it might have been inner bones to ridley back then. It also could of been a better prequel if they were but hey ho thats life...lets hope it all gets better :D ...

@korpen No harm no foul.

The best way to describe it is look at the Engineers Suit.... It is a Organic suit that when he wears it, it becomes part of him. If you say look at a Pair of Snake skin Trousers, now imagine if when you wore them, they actually bond to your skin so you wear them just as a real Snake wears its skin.... Now look and consider this..... [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sdFLxH5oGpM/S8JtX4CAl6I/AAAAAAAABZ4/tTbPpjnLRb8/s1600/snake.jpg[/img] That is what has happened to that suit.

I still love the idea that the SJ is an elephantine beast that's been dead a long time ago, and not a suit. I believe it had more potential than the humainoid engineers from Prometheus imo. Snorky is right, since it's a suit, we can no longer call it fossilized. I don't know, but does a SJ- suit turn into stone over time? It already looked like it was made of some rock-hard material. No evidence of sediment, alien technology we cannot possibly comprehend, etc. What about "looks like it has grown out of the chair..."? All the things that were said about the SJ in Alien, were just ignored in Prometheus. They even didn't get the size of the SJ right...

Although not 100% definitive I do see a facehugger-esque image in the lower right hand corner of the pic you you showed us Sparky!?!

#1- There is NO Debating It did happen before the creature they found was mummified or whatever, thousands of years had past that h4e had been stuck in the chair...this is basic stuff. #2-I am writing with all due respect for the poster of the original comment it's just been bugging the crap out of me...the idea he raised that is and that some people have been using this to justify a completely faulty argument. genjitsu17 WROTE Posted Jul-01-2012 11:41 PM [b]The mural clearly shows standard facehuggers, so we know they already existed. I believe the ship on LV-426 has been there for millenia. (before events in Prometheus.)[/b] no it does not, Gigers painting did... the image in Prometheus does not ! and THIS IS THE KIND OF COMMENT THAT HAS ME VERY VERY DISTURBED, FOR A lONG TIME NOW, AND I HAVE BEEN CHECKING THIS EACH AND EVERY DAY BECAUSE in my feeble stupid little mind IT JUST IS NOT TRUE AND IS MADE UP and a FANTASY...AND JUST FLAT OUT WRONG...AND I HAVE now CONFiRMED IT !!! [b]There are no facehuggers depicted on the Mural and it is irresponsible to have said there were /b] HERE IS THE IMAGE WE ARE REFERRING TO [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/LT.HIGHTIMES/1a1fh11.jpg[/img] now while everyone here is saying the swirly images all over it and in particular are Face Huggers, Fine, I will accept that, but they are attached to nothing and clearly CUDDLES became a Giant FaceHugger...not a small one...and... HERE IS THE THING THAT PISSES ME OFF... IF THEY ARE IN FACT FACE HUGGERS AND WE STILL DO NOT KNOW FOR A FACT THAT'S THAT WHAT THOSE SWIRLY LINE DESIGNS ARE MEANT O REPRESENT, THEN THEY ARE FACEHUGGERS THAT PRODUCE "DEACONS" AND NOT "XENOMORPHS" THE WAY WE REMEMBER SEEING THEM. ALSO IN THE FILM, WE SEE THE IMAGE FOR LESS THAN 2 SECONDS AND THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE ON THE CREW OR THE SPECIAL EFFECTS TEAM INTENDED FOR US, THE AUDIENCE TO NOTICE XENOMORPH TYPE FACE HUGGERS In vague swirly lines and makes this connection, I think they took that piece of art from somewhere else, the makers of the film did, and decided to make it as big a basterdization of things as they could!!! But Looking at that image and using it to say "Ya See... They already existed {The Xenomorphs} is irresponsible AT BEST !!! I say We Just Do Not Know, Plain and Flat out, Just DO NOT KNOW !!! WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OF THAT, WHAT WE SAW WAS A FREAK ACCIDENTAL BIRTH OF AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT LOOKING SPECIES OF MONSTER WITH MAYBE SIMILAR DNA THAT GOT CREATED BY GIANT FACEHUGGER NOT ONE that's 125TH OF THE SIZE OF IT'S HOST!!! I ALSO think IT IS FANTASTiCALLY STUPID of the makers of this film to think that it made sense to create any story line in which Alien Beings on a military mission to destroy Earth, are going to paint nice pictures in their caves to spruce up the place for visits from MOM and Earth men...that Mural is quickly becoming a big PROBLEM now because people are using it to justify arguments supporting the past existence of the Xenomorph, which I am upset about because that MURAL in fact supports Nothing and what we saw in Prometheus is the Genesis of the Xenomorph species imho. I think that Deacon gets hit with more DNA and eventually, eventually becomes and outgrowth of many things that bring us to the Xenomorph the way we saw it in Alien...That said, If I am right it means the Creatures you guys are referring to from Alien, The Facehuggers and Xeno we saw and Loved in Alien, are Indigneous to THIS star SYSTEM, the LV star system. And Might be the very reason The race of Engineer's used that system at all, to harvest these creatures and use them to destroy earth. I am just gonna need a lot more convincing before I ever buy into the theory that the Facehugger as We Knew it already existed. I would rather like to believe that little one you all imagine you are seeing in that Mural becomes and outgrowth of the big one we just saw in the film. And just to end on a high note...I also think that this suggests Nuclear Poisoning! Just had to get this all off my chest, thank you for you indulgence. Just looking for the truth, ALWAYS looking for the truth!

In review, you all could be right that they existed, but that MURAL does NOT Prove it, what I think it does prove, is the past existence of "The DEACON" itself.

also when I suggested this, that if it were a suite how could it be mummified or fossilised...?... or whatever...people told me I was nutz...and in re thinking it I thought they were right, so I decide to go watch Alien again, but on my way to I stumbled across Ridley Scott Himself saying it, and then read it myself in the Alien Vault... "It had become [b]"OSSIFIED".[/b] ...which...is the process of laying down new bone material by cells called osteoblasts. It is synonymous with bone tissue formation. There are two processes resulting in the formation of normal, healthy bone tissue: Intramembranous ossification is the direct laying down of bone into the primitive connective tissue (mesenchyme), while endochondral ossification involves cartilage as a precursor. In fracture healing, endochondral osteogenesis is the most commonly occurring process, for example in fractures of long bones treated by plaster of Paris, whereas fractures treated by open reduction and stabilization by metal plate and screws may heal by intramembranous osteogenesis. Heterotopic ossification is a process resulting in the formation of bone tissue that is often atypical, at an extraskeletal location. Calcification is often confused with ossification. Calcification is synonymous with the formation of calcium-based salts and crystals within cells and tissue. It is a process that occurs during ossification, but not vice versa. The exact mechanisms by which bone development is triggered remains unclear, but it involves growth factors and cytokines in some way. This all means the answer is Years [b]it takes YEARS to do that and NOT thousands of years,[/b] but I have kept my mouth shut because this could cause a storm suggesting the Orignbal Engineer we saw Crashed on LV-426 last Tuesday {meaning when some people still think it did, right after the events of Prometheus or 30 or so years later} !!! Which is HUGE stuff FOLKS !!!

The Mural is a bit mish mash, its purpose is to be vague the only things that stand out are the Xeno Type Organism and the Face Hugger Looking ones. No body knows the purpose of the Mural, only Ridley and some of his staff may have the idea, the purpose of why we get no answers is what Ridley and Lindelof was aiming for and that ambiguity. Just little clues that have no definite answer that every person will then reach a different conclusion. Before seeing the movie, some thought that the Mural was merely going to be a Easter Egg and nothing more.... some thought it would hold a key and clue and reference to either the Xeno or something that will happen or follow after the movie. Or something from the past. Just like the Deacon we cant rule out this is a new creature that has no direct connection to the Xeno, i.e that it will spawn the Xeno or Xeno will evolve from the Deacon. But then again there is no proof of the vice versa. Another clever piece of ambiguity. Ridley has also been playing a game with us, by making statements that contradict each other.... On one hand he and Lindelof claimed the movie is "where Mommy meets Daddy" and about the Progenitor which then hints that the Traditional Xeno evolves from something in this movie, they even asked Giger for ideas of what the Xeno would look like if you did backwards Evolution on it. But then Ridley comes out and says the Derelict Tech is Millions of years old, and then says what happened to the Derelict on LV 426 and that it occurred hundreds of years prior to the event that killed off most of the Engineers on LV 223. So again this would imply the Xeno was around at least 2000 years prior to now.... But then again maybe not, its all done in a way so we dont get the 100% answer so we can all speculate and come up with different theories, this is the reason why Lindelof does his kind of open ended writing. Which is not to some peoples tastes... some times its good when done in certain ways and i think the whole Xeno links or not so in Prometheus are a very good way of doing that. To me the Mural depicts one of 4 things. 1) Either something they worshiped (does not mean its a God) as some religions on Earth worship animals but they dont see them as God. So the Organism in the Mural and those Face Hugger type Organisms had already been around for thousands of years. 2) Its a Mural to show off/dedicate to one of their creations, the creation/origins of the Xeno Organism and thus also trace routes to the events of Prometheus. 3) Its a prophecy, depicted some event/creation that has yet to occur. 4) It depicts some Organism that the Engineers had used to create the Xeno and Black Substance from... i.e the creature was not created by them, but the one in the Mural is what they used to create the Xeno, just as they used a fellow Engineer to create Mankind. To me the Mural looks more like the Deacon rather than the Xeno from Alien/Aliens. But then again it also has what looks vaguely like Face Huggers.... so it leaves us with Clues that could suggest the Deacon proceeds the Xeno or Vice Versa. With no clear answer given.....

you said it best.

@Spartacus Yes thats a good point and what i had tried to explain with the Snake Skin. The Suit is maybe just like a Exo suit or Skeleton of a Spider, or Snake Skin, so as it is Organic to a extent it will over time die, just how some plants change the way they apear when they die. [img]http://leileiland.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/img_6755.jpg[/img] Dead Cactus... compared to a live one. [img]http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/upload/537648/images/52%20cactus.jpg[/img] Or maybe also like this [img]http://www.traveljournals.net/pictures/l/3/36775-hinterland-outback-experience---dead-spider-yuck-atherton-tablelands-australia.jpg[/img] Compared to when alive... [img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090425231159/uncyclopedia/images/b/b7/Giant-house-spider.jpg[/img]

My theory would be that the events of the Derelict on Alien happened many years prior to Prometheus. I think that the Bio Weapon that was the Xeno, was a Organism that was risky and hard to contain and control and so they re-engineered it so as that its DNA is carried in the Urn/Ampules instead. Maybe the process used to break down the Engineers DNA at the Sacrificial scene which his DNA/Building Blocks broke down into the Water and eventually these blocks evolved or changed life into what we have today. Surely the same kind of process could break down a Xeno DNA and have the broken down substance stored into the Urns.... a safer way to store a Bio Weapon than Cargo holds of Eggs protected by a force field etc. But then some say how is it safe as we saw what happened to the Urns in Prometheus..... well i think thats where the Space Jockey suits come into it... you see a PLOT HOLE was that the Engineer that attacked Shaw managed to get to the lifeboat without his Space Suit..... we dont know if he discarded it before he attacked Shaw or if he managed to get from the crashed Derelict to the lifeboat with out one... So why do they need the suits then...... maybe because they use them when dealing with the Urns, as if they do not then the air they breath out etc will activate the Urns. If i remember right the Urns only started to overflow once the crew took off their Helmets and thus the condensation from their breathing could have changed the atmosphere/humidity of the room.

Hey @ Gimmiafacehug. I also have stated before that the original space jockey looked more macbre then the humanoid space jockey. It looked more Lovecraftian. I have also stated before even though there are people who are going to say that I am wrong. That the original Space Jockey is what it is. Its head is Elephantine. So the engineers who worship the Space Jockeys honor there creators by creating helmuts that actually look like a Space Jockey.

very great stuff you guys I agree with all of your comments and it certainly is true that we all are getting somewhere with his, or at least, moving towards a better understanding of it all... much better imho.

and awesome examples BigDave just awesome

Wow! When I viewed Alien way back when, I was intrigued by the few unanswered questions. Such as: 1. Who is (or was) the guy in the chair? 2. Where did he come from? And at what point during his impregnation did he realize that he was going to die and send a warning- later perverted by Weyland-Yutani as a "Distress Signal"? 3. Were all those eggs in his spacecraft the product of what happened to him after his death? These were the questions I asked and talked about with friends BACK THEN. I also remember wondering (question #4?) what connection any of this had to the rest of that film. Certainly the evidence seen during Kane, Lambert and Dallas' ill-fated excursion didn't repeat itself on the Nostromo. In the original Alien, events on LV-426 were left a dead end. That was OK back then. Now throw "Prometheus" into those exact same questions! It seems to me that only ONE of the original questions was really answered in this one: "Who was the guy in the chair?" But Prometheus' answer; instead of solving the mystery, only brought out a ton of other questions. Uhg!! The Prometheus film is so messed up with countless questions about it's own story, that it failed miserably at answering almost anything at all in the original IMHO. The idea of it being any sort of "Prequel" is substantiated only by the supposition that it is the same universe- in that there are similarities. But all of the new questions concerning what we (the audience) have now been shown in Prometheus completely fragments (endlessly multiplies) the four questions from the original... So now, I really DO care about how and why the Space Jockey got "impregnated". I really DO care what happened to him that made him send a warning. I sure hope that the next film (if there is one?) can actually answer all of it- and won't take thirty years to come out.

@aircraftfixer Yep thats were the majority of people are including myself - least the ones that aren't blindly loving this film for it being alien / ridley scott linked...But we are hoping thats its all part of a clever plan and it'll all be awesome in its completeness one day :P

never appeared in the film....lol. & you are referring to a photo in a book of The Giger Mural and in the Mural from the film all there are is a bunch of whirly lines...PERIOD. edit : the best part is you did not read the post. If you had you would have realized how incorrect the post you just made is!

that's better.

Ah, Spartacus! I see how you got to almost 6,000 posts. I'm sure that on the way to that figure you treated many other members in the same way that you did [u]genjitsu17[/u]. How lovely!

yes I agree you do, but when you see the film it goes by so fast it has absolutely NO SIGNIFICANCE IN IT and again you also apparently did not read what I wrote because I said I am willing to accept if it is there IN THE MURAL ITSELF and said so several times, but IN the FILM it has NO Meaning it is an outgrowth of a piece of art used in the film and you are blurring the line between art ant film by raising it;s significance just because it appears in the actually designed mural. also, as a MOD I am very hopeful you are going to address the PM I am now sending you.

[u]sparatacus[/u]: You wrote: "HERE IS THE IMAGE WE ARE REFERRING TO" The image that you linked in your post is [u][i]the same[/i][/u] image located on page 116 of the art book. You also wrote: “and THIS IS THE KIND OF COMMENT THAT HAS ME VERY VERY DISTURBED, FOR A lONG TIME NOW, AND I HAVE BEEN CHECKING THIS EACH AND EVERY DAY BECAUSE in my feeble stupid little mind IT JUST IS NOT TRUE AND IS MADE UP and a FANTASY...AND JUST FLAT OUT WRONG...AND I HAVE now CONFiRMED IT !!!” In your earlier post you did not write "HERE IS THE IMAGE WE ARE REFERRING TO. HOWEVER, FOR THE SAKE OF THIS DISCUSSION/THREAD I WANT TO MAKE NOTE OF THE FACT THAT NOT ALL OF THE DETAILS OF THE BELOW LINKED IMAGE MADE IT INTO THE THEATRICAL REALEASE OF "PROMETHEUS". THEREFORE, IN MY MIND AND POSTS I REJECT ANY AND ALL THEORIES THAT ARE PUT FORTH BY ANY OTHER FANS/CRITICS OF “PROMETHEUS” THAT RELATE TO THE SUPPOSED PRESENCE OF FACEHUGGERS IN THE BELOW LINKED IMAGE.” You made a mistake in you earlier post and in the process you harangued another member via your tirade. If it were me I'd just say "Oops! My bad. Sorry." It really ain't that complicated.

Continue with the discussion and the topic in hand people or the thread gets locked!

Many people on here keep suggesting that the Derilict Space Jockey is mummified well I wish people could get this right as being mummified thus is a form of mummification which, in turn, is a process that can only be done with 'others' present as it is a form of embalming. A Process that can only be achieved with others doing the wrapping up process of the body which is why Dallas says fossilized about the Alien in the chair. Hence, he is deferring to his common human sense reasoning, it clearly looks exposed to the elements and not wrapped up in anything so therefore, by that very reckoning the creature is not mummified. That would imply that others stood by and watched why what ever fate befell the Space Jockey and did nothing to help. A sacraficial act maybe? That would justify mummification. As I read it the being looks exposed, EXPOSED, left out in the open to the elements, not embalmed, mummified, THAT reasoning would imply being PROTECTED from them, he clearly is NOT. The happy middle groungd here could be that the entire ship was either in flight in space and open to vacum and the breaching of his suit occurred and he shrivled up in time due to exposure to all sorts of nasty reactions from space. Or, he eded up inside the harsh, almost equally bad atmosperic reactions and bad elements due to his Bio Seat Suit being breached that way instead and the exposure to those particular elements on LV 426 were very harsh and acted in an acccelorated kind of way. I'm offering that it is possible that the crash and effects could have happened to the Derilict afetr the events on LV 223 in Prometheus but I would say simultaneously that the effects upon his body would be faster most likely. The ravages of vacum of space or bad atmospherics could have played some part either before or after the events of Prometheus. I would like to go with the idea that it lay dormant there for perhaps centuries and centuries, it has more impactful resonance when you ponder how long it has been sitting there and what callamity had befallen it. It gives the whole mythology of the developing story line/arc much more mytery and dreaded depth. Imaging if the Nostromo was the ship that had been found, knowing what we know about the events of Alien and a fossilized alien ship is found embedded inside the rockface of an alien planet and a bunch of future explorers happen upon it just like near the end of A.I: Artificila Intelligence where the visiting alien archeologists-life forms to Earth find our former civilization entombed within thousands of kilometers of a new ice age.