moon landing....do you believe the conspiracy theories or are they just a load o

[img]http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/mcsnapshot/SCI%20FI/moon.jpg[/img]

[i]1 - you are forgetting, that this event was not in a country such as Russia or the USA.[/i] Relevance? [i]2 - Also forgetting this is one of the oldest actually fotographed UFO incidents that was widely spread all over the world... before the so called USA's "Roswell incident" or the Russian "Roswell" or the brazilian "Roswell"[/i] Ignored my last post, did you? [i]3- True, they have. And Portugal was not an exception. At that time, Portugal was called "A Nação Fidelíssima" [the highly Faithful Nation], remembering that Portugal was always a Catholic Nation with very high influence in the Church and vice-versa.[/i] So, by your own admission, it is [u]possible[/u] that the Church might have committed pious fraud in this case? [i]4- No, the State Police was. State Police as in Pre-Fascism. Pre-Fascism as in "shut up and do what I say or I'll shoot you in the head and kill your entire family".[/i] So, if the Church had immediately intervened, and Portugal was a faith state, which means the State Police was the Church's muscle, doesn't that sound like the Church might have fabricated this? [i]You should know by now what that means.[/i] Pious fraud?

You have to ask yourself, why would the Moon Landing be a Hoax. It is a pop cultural thing only possible due to the disbelief in Governments. However this disbelief is credited because those same Governments seem to have little interest in it's People's well being and show some lack of transparency in their actions. This, in turn, makes the People doubt about the Governments intentios towards them and the most mediatic Government's actions are seen as doubtful. The more that doubt about it's own Government, the more it becomes a popular reality. A Conspiracy feeling makes it's way through all sorts of media and the doubt about the Goverments intentions is perpetuated. However, the doubt about some Governments are rather realistic for it seems some Governments have no interest in it's People's well being and operate through lack of transparency and fear mongering. It's one step away from true tirany. And this is even more true when those same Governments act against not only it's own People but against other Nations as well.

It would be more difficult to hoax it and keep everyone quiet about it than to send someone there.

However, I do have 2 questions about the UFO business: When Governments all over the world are releasing their documentation about the UFO reality with no fear of their peoples reaction towards it, howcome some other Governments seem reluctant to do the same? Why would some Governments be fearful of releasing their own documents while others are not? p.s.: and I mean those that are truly UFOs, not the military ones. p.s.: this ties in to what I said in the first reply to this post.

Because the unreleased documents may pose a security risk. A lot of sightings are either aircraft, their ammunition with tracer lights or satellite launches. The fewer details about military operations, the better. [i]and I mean those that are truly UFOs, not the military ones.[/i] How do you know that they are truly UFOs?

Hercules: We had a very well known UFO case here in May the 13th of 1917. it was called "the miracle of the Sun" That was before any military stealth aircraft ever launched. [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LBf69RxFwxI/T6_Hts9d3FI/AAAAAAAAH98/btwXXxvreYY/s1600/Multidao-na-Cova-da-Iria.jpg[/img] It was also refered to as "Fatima's Miracle", but even the Church - though canonizing the 3 pastors that were "visited" - already claimed that there might have been another force in action rather than that of "Holly Mary". And that is the "truly UFO" documentation that I'm refering to. People still believe in Fatima's miracle as a "true" miracle, and we have at that same spot a worldy known sanctuary called "Santuário de Fátima" [Fatima's Sanctuary] where pilgrims from all over the world go to pay a visit. However, the same people that go there also believe there was something else going on, and some people from that time was alive till some years ago to actually report what they saw. One man that witnessed that event, and a local resident, said bluntly: "It could be the Holly Mary speaking to those children there, but one thing I know is that 3km away from that place the sun was in it's normal position in the sky and in that location the Sun was diferent and closer to touch the ground."

You do realize that anecdotal evidence cannot stand on its own? ;)

A quick answer (or joke) : If the USA president during the event has been J F Kennedy, i would have lot less doubt that with the Nixon presidence. Nixon was one of the bigger lier that our beautiful planet has to support, with to much repercussion on all the human cultures and nations. I think that the US has landed on moon, but maybe later. The URSS only landed on moon with robot (remoted little vehicules), the engineer responsable of the URSS robots was later recruted by the NASA to plan the Mars Viking operation (about the landing module).

Hercules: what do you mean by anedoctal evidence? The fact that there are tons of photographs of that event and the peoples report? The fact that the church imidialtly intervene via state authorities? The fact that at that time people couldn't open their mouths for fear of getting shot dead? Please explain. p.s.: In the foto I added in the last reply, you can see the people from then, at the actual spot, at that right time, with the actual Sun in the background. So... what other Sun were they looking at?

[I]what do you mean by anedoctal evidence?[/I] You know: "He said this. So did she." [i]The fact that there are tons of photographs of that event and the peoples report?[/i] Not to mention that there were pictures of fairies back then, too. [i]The fact that the church imidialtly intervene via state authorities?[/i] Like the Church had never used pious fraud... [i]The fact that at that time people couldn't open their mouths for fear of getting shot dead?[/i] The Virgin Mary was packing heat? Damn!

Hercules: 1 - you are forgetting, that this event was not in a country such as Russia or the USA. 2 - Also forgetting this is one of the oldest actually fotographed UFO incidents that was widely spread all over the world... before the so called USA's "Roswell incident" or the Russian "Roswell" or the brazilian "Roswell" 3- True, they have. And Portugal was not an exception. At that time, Portugal was called "A Nação Fidelíssima" [the highly Faithful Nation], remembering that Portugal was always a Catholic Nation with very high influence in the Church and vice-versa. 4- No, the State Police was. State Police as in Pre-Fascism. Pre-Fascism as in "shut up and do what I say or I'll shoot you in the head and kill your entire family". You should know by now what that means. If you still don't, don't worry, you'll live to see it, by the way things are going.

Calm down guys, and remember you are out of subject on the post.

We're already calm.

Relevance: 1 - Each country has it's own mentality, wich is based on it's People, it's History, and it's Governance. We have nearly a millenia of History in our shoulders, other Nations have an even longer History. That means that the mentality over that períod has changed and developed. The relatioship with what is known and unknown has developed as well. It's called experience. 2 - No I did not ignore it. But if you are able to see a fairy in that pic, let me know, 'cause it wasn't taken by children with fairy tale children books drawings. It was taken by the local news reporters, and other reporters that came, including from Spain [which would have their own similar phaenomena later on]. 3 - I believe they did. The case in point being, that 3 children were contacted by an entity that was described by themselves as an "angel" and the other people that were there witnessing all that was hapening in the sky, and what was hapening to the children [they were prostrated in the ground with their heads tilted back, with eyes wide open] corroborated with the children's point of view. Throw in a local priest that was scared to death and called the authorities, the authorities not knowing what to do contacted the Holly Church and they were asked to intervene till they got there in person. But, by then, the news coverage was already being done, fotografs were being taken and that was that. Unfortunately, the Church perpetuated the "miracle" stance and made a profit with it. Do you think "Sanctuaries" are buid just because? 4 - The Church didn't "fabricate" it. The Church took advantage of it. A diferent thing. 5 - no, indescriminated death by your Government.

Well, I think that man landing on the moon is a fact, since some recent photos revealed retroreflectors. I, however, am not sure that they landed there in 1969, and the photos they took are actual real. They landed there, they might, however, have not landed in the Appollo 11 mission. The question here is not if the moon landings are real, it is if the Apollo 11 is real, I think...

I don't think it's hoax. ISRO research center here in india (who worked behind [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakesh_Sharma]this man[/url]) had few scientists who collaborated with plenty of other scientists from other countries for the moon expeditions. I dont think goverment of any country hides anything unless ofcourse they have military advantage over things. CERN's research is pretty much open with access to every particle physicist in the world and also there are commercial involvement in such projects. One thing I did heard from all the ISRO folks is that there is not much value ( in terms of fuel etc type of resource) from Moon. So it's neglected. Mars is next in the list because there are chances of natural resources on that planet and it also has environment to sustain life.

India is also reach in UFO lore.

Yeah but Indians don't believe in mystical aliens and spaceships. Indian belief in UFO is more religious, I mean gods taking people to paradise after death or when they are impressed with the works of individual towards humanity. Hinduism is like matrix religion, zen stuff and all.

[i]1 - Each country has it's own mentality, wich is based on it's People, it's History, and it's Governance. We have nearly a millenia of History in our shoulders, other Nations have an even longer History. That means that the mentality over that períod has changed and developed. The relatioship with what is known and unknown has developed as well. It's called experience.[/i] So they have experience in creating state-sanctioned hoaxes of supernatural phenomena? You're right: Portugal is different than the US and the former USSR. [i]2 - No I did not ignore it. But if you are able to see a fairy in that pic, let me know, 'cause it wasn't taken by children with fairy tale children books drawings. It was taken by the local news reporters, and other reporters that came, including from Spain [which would have their own similar phaenomena later on].[/i] The point which you (may have deliberately) missed is that there were hoaxed pics from back in that day... [i]3 - I believe they did. The case in point being, that 3 children were contacted by an entity that was described by themselves as an "angel" and the other people that were there witnessing all that was hapening in the sky, and what was hapening to the children [they were prostrated in the ground with their heads tilted back, with eyes wide open] corroborated with the children's point of view. Throw in a local priest that was scared to death and called the authorities, the authorities not knowing what to do contacted the Holly Church and they were asked to intervene till they got there in person. But, by then, the news coverage was already being done, fotografs were being taken and that was that. Unfortunately, the Church perpetuated the "miracle" stance and made a profit with it. Do you think "Sanctuaries" are buid just because?[/i] So, you mention this case to support your claim that there are "truly UFOs" [your words} that the government keeps secret and you are dismissing your case as a hoax? [i]4 - The Church didn't "fabricate" it. The Church took advantage of it. A diferent thing.[/i] But you just said that you believed it was a fabrication by the Church. If anything, can you honestly discredit the notion that the Church might have approached these children and instructed them on what to say and do or that if the children were sincere in their beliefs that they might have misinterpreted what they had seen? [i]5 - no, indescriminated death by your Government.[/i] Yeah, huh. *yawn* Now, getting back to this hoaxing by the government(s): How do you know that the unreleased documents are about "truly UFOs", especially if you hadn't read them?

[center][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S60Aw9OaX0]Fatima Prophecy: The 13th Day - on [b]YouTube[/b][/url][/center]

1 - Really? Is that even an answer? "state-sanctioned hoaxes of supernatural phenomena?" You seem to forget that there were no words for UFO's back then. The word for it that the folks of that períod used to describre what they saw was another "Sun in the Sky" that almost touched ground. The State had nothing to do with it. Hoax? Really???? Why would shephards and fisherman and 3 very young shephard kids "hoax" anything? Most probabily they never even heard of that word and it's meaning in their lives. 2 - good for whoever did them. Because, this was an actual event witnessed by thousands of people from all over the area and from abroad... so tell me where the hoax is. 3 - Indeed. If not, there wouldn't be a "Disclosure" thing going on all around the world would there? The Portuguese UFO case were never concealed to the public so we have n o need to ask for disclosure. In fact, people that saw them, took pics and videos, they were never ridiculed at all and if a person tells you that they saw one of Sintra's many ufo's hovering and zig-zaging by, it is generally accepted and well received without that "he must be crazy" going on. People accept it pretty well. 4 - I said the Church took advantage of the Children saying they were talking to an angel as beautiful as Holly Mary and the thousands of folks there standing and witnessing the 2nd "Sun" to claim it as a "miracle" build a Sanctuary and profit from it. The idea that the Church would also put a "2nd Sun" in the sky that everybody there standing saw and took pictures of is where you fail with your way of thought. 5 - sleepy? go take a nap.

YouTube videos = must be true. XD

Snorks: yes, a tv drama rendition of it. like this one? [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzLptiNfqoY]Roswel[/url]

1. I just asked you to entertain a critical thought. That's all. 2. Behold the power of anecdotal evidence. They said they saw it, so it must be true. 3. For a while, people accepted that the world was flat. (Some still do.) 4. I said nothing of the Church putting a second sun in the sky. I did mention that it would be easy to have people, especially children, lie about it. 5. Can't nap; I'm on my way to go golfing.

Hercules: So, basically you can't deny there was an actual event taking place witnessed by thousands, that made world news at the time, that still is considered to be among the best evidences of "true UFOs" even before a UFO was called a UFO, and also, you're incapable of realizing that some people's word and discription [that is exaclty the same] is itaken seriously because there is a thing we prize a lot called "Word of Honour" [don't know about you but I take pride that my people is honourable], and pictures, and it can't possibly even be true... but has to be a Hoax... Oh, and back then, there were 2 "Suns" in the sky, because, you know, it happens all the time... and it was weather ballon. Good call mate... Thank you for the laughs.

I am puting my paw in a mined land, but about any hoax, the question could be : Why inventing a hoax and how can it be a benefit for those who speak about it ?

OK people, here is my theory on the moon landings and how I think the conspiracy theories fit in. The key to the problem is that very few people look at the technology of the time and how world politics had its part to play. Consider the hunger of an eager public to see the event, at that time. When ever anybody makes a claim about achieving something, proof is required. This is what has formed the corner stone for all the speculation. I think most people would agree that you cannot change the laws of physics, and that once outside earths atmosphere there are all kinds of phenomenon that happen in space. Take cosmic rays and their effects particularly on photographic mediums at the time. These days taking a photograph is easy, and most people have gone digital. Back then, the cameras used by NASA were very basic and relied on film. There were big problems with image stability and to get a half decent shot would be difficult for any trained photographer. Now the big problem with putting a man on the moon, is not so much putting a man on the moon, but getting back and then proving to the world that it was done. Imagine the shock, of being informed by Kodak that those rolls of film you sent to be developed came back, in the most part with nothing on them, and the images that had survived the journey were useless, proving the cameras you were using were crap. It’s at this point you would say ‘Euston, we have a problem’. Now ask yourself this very big, important question. What do you do? The training programme consisted of well seasoned pilots, used to working under strict security protocols. It would make sense to have a facility somewhere, where you would have a mock up of the intended lunar site and astronaut teams would practise and film the events to look back on and predict any problems that might occur. Does this sound far fetched and the stuff of fantasy. I don’t think so, it’s not rocket science to have good planning. Now, back to my theory. I believe the moon landings happened, I believe it is just plain common sense to have a contingency plan that gives the public what they want to see, should the film images not work out. The actions of the astronauts would have been so well timed and practised you would be able to set a Swiss watch by them. I think that images were released by the press corps were taken in a training facility should things go tits up, and yes, things did go tits up. It is not until later with the development of more sophisticated image manipulation technology that the images have been called into question, hence the propagation of all the conspiracy theories. Does this sound mad, or just good old fashioned common, practical sense.

[quote]Why inventing a hoax and how can it be a benefit for those who speak about it ?[/quote] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forming cults around hoax is a good way to make money. Belief in something which you can't disapprove == domination+money+followers(cult) People are already against concept of government, they either latch onto anarchy or just want their religion to take over government. So they think that government always hides stuff. US policies often help people go much deeper into this thought process. Usually if there is no military benefit, government hardly cares if it gets public. I mean think about it, If justin beiber is alien from chocolate milk galaxy, why would government bother hiding his identity if they found it?

I don't believe it was a hoax, but on the other hand I think that Stanley Kubrick had the means to trick our eyes into believing anything. "Space Odyssey 2001" was released the same year with the first manned mission to the moon. Remember that back then we were in the "cold war" era and the Soviets followed the mission tracks from the beginning to the end, if there was a hoax they would be the first ones to reveal the truth. A conspiracy scenario like "Capricorn One", is more plausible, minutes before the take off the crew abandoned the rocket and played as actors the moon landing scene, by this way the Soviets would not understand nothing because there would be a moon landing, but being performed from Earth. Who knows? There is evidence though that proves that Armstrong got his foot on the moon, the flag and the equipment in the place of landing have been photographed many times.

Vyemm: Indeed. Good question. Why and how would someone profit from a Hoax? Also, you have the answer in the question: profit. But it gets a bit diferent when someone profits from an event that actually happened and distorts it according to it's own institution [Fatima as an example].

I like a lot more the recent answers and i personnaly totaly agree with you. I have another strange question for you guys ! Why hiding some event or consequences of some hard difficulty ? I personnaly thing it is for the same purpose, the power / profit.

So ! In anyway, the powerfull guys of our world just have all interrest to lie. I could say it is mathematic :p

[quote]Why hiding some event or consequences of some hard difficulty ?[/quote] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ If the people who wish to hide things have trusted chain then they can do a lot of coverup. That includes killing civilians. But for casual hiding with some say deals and stuff is hard because if people from top to bottom are not fed money then truth comes out in news. That's why political scams come out easily but military scams don't come out that easily. If the aliens or UFO land on earth and if government grabs their weapons or some other stuff like energy related secrets or say intelligence then it does make sense hiding it for time being and then releasing the same information to make money.

Vyemm: Whoever is in power always wants to keep himself there. It's inevitable. The same way a peson that ascends to power wants to change the reality he/she lives in according to his/her own preferences. Change the world according to their point of view. That is why there are tiranies, governments killing their own people by the thousands, tens of thunsands, hundreds of thousands because those people want to take out the dictator from his power seat. That is why Nations invade other Nations, because they want more power and to be acknowledged as Powerful. Eventually all tyrannies fall, just like any Empire does. That is also inevitable.

@Sky: I agree with you for the most (even all :). But there is another reason to release informations about some past secret (very past, 50 years mini). Excepeted the money aspect, it is necessary to progress as a state or ether species. But after a complete new generation. It is also the reason why some secrets are reported to later release ! Because the people involved is still in activity :) A lot to aliment any hoax theory also. I stop here, The Deacon will try to scratch the Xeno Mouse !

Vyemm, Is it a hoax or is it a conspiracy, To try and help bring the thread back on topic... IMO the moon landings are genuine. It was the height of the cold war when both the US and the USSR were flexing whatever muscles they each had at each other to show whom between them was "the" super power. first we had the nuclear arms race which culminated in nuclear deterrence, then they shifted to the space race - who could do what first, first satellite, first person in space, first lunar satellite, first man on the moon. War creates competition, competition creates endeavor, endeavor creates creativity and creativity pushes the boundaries of the limits. The US landed on the moon because they had too, else the USSR would have beat them to it.

Vyemm: you are completly right about that, and I apologize for my behalf since I asked to be taken to PM's but wasn't accepted. Keep on friend and never mind us.

[quote]I have a theory about that, but maybe it is an Hoax ! So, forget it guys.[/quote] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You Sir. Win internet. :D

A lot of people have a real problem with space exploration. There is a romanticism about the moon that still lingers, as something unobtainable and unreachable by these mere mortals. I understand that... I don't understand is the thought process of those who see things right in front of them and still denie them. Pointless