Saving the Story

BigDave has essentially made the point I would make is that by viewing Brett's transformation into an egg incubating a Royal Facehugger (Alien 3 Assembly Cut), Dan O'Bannon's original idea (not Ridleys) would work in tandem with James Cameron's Queen idea. The owners of the franchise, being those that own the production rights, and thus must give their permission to any movie set within the universe, are unjustily so Brandywine Productions (don't get me started). Although they do have the final say so their influence is minimal within Ridley's plan. Prometheus is a recycling of unused ideas from Alien, used to establish and explore the mythology of the race known as the Engineers. Although there are links both direct and indirect to the story of the Xenomorph, Prometheus and its sequel(s) are not about the Xenomorph but about the Engineers. yes there are possible creative ways to explain mysteries in Alien, but this is another story arc, exploring another species, set in the same universe and taking place chronologically before the associated "mother" franchise. Prometheus is NOT a prequel, nor is it a reboot. It is an answer to a question Ridley repeatedly asked - "Who is that big dead guy in the chair in the derelict craft, where does he come from..." Back to topic though. Should Ridley want to mention address the Queen, he will in fact support the idea, as he always has, because remember - Ridley, O'Bannon and Giger were all fans of James Cameron's Xenomorph Queen, both in terms of design and concept.

Zz plural Before joining this blog a2 DC was my favourite alien universe film. Now it's p1 + a1DC because I understand a lot more about a1 dc now and the story boards that xenomorph alpha 07 posted. I still love a2 DC though and a4 (a3 is ok but it really mucked up everything as it was only an excuse to extend the series and make money on the reputation of the a1 and a2.) The only reason why I am hoping that Ridley is bashing everything after alien is simply so that establishing the life cycle of the xenomorph is going to be that much simpler and that could be instrumental in establishing their role in engineer society and therefore establishing engineer society itself. Is Ridley now liking the queen Idea ? Has he said any such ? (sorry bigdave that's what I heard but I humbly submit to your take/witness of it !!!) Well if everything is "canon" after alien then does that mean that the deacon has all the memories of an engineer he has broken free from ? Does he have Shaw and Holloway's memories as well ? Would the deacon be able to pilot a ship by itself ? Where do you draw the line ? Did the alien in alien have kane's memories ? Did he know the Nostromo was going to self-destruct and therefore knew then to go to the lifeboat to wait for anyone escaping . If he wasn't morphing into his final lifecycle (or perhaps dying ? - story board saying he was morphing doesn't contradict the movie as there was no evifence he was dying - is there a storyboard saying he was dying ?) might he not have piloted the the lifeboat himself ? Ludicrous I know. But the point I am trying to make is: would Ridley not cut out all of this type argumentative nonsense if he only works with what is knowable from p1 -a1 ? That is all I am trying to convey. Is he not maybe trying to move away from all of that ? I personally don't have a problem if Ridley works with what is knowable about anything from a2 to a4. Even avp1 - avp2. If that is the case then snorks theory on the black liquid is the most encompassing theory we have at the moment. I just believe we need to look at a theory only working with what we see in p1 - a1. But if the additional 25/34 cut scene minutes might reveal that Ridley has gone the p1 - a4 canon route then I will happilly accept that !!!! Just hoping for the sake of simplifying things that he has gone the p1 - a1 Route !! Hopefull we will find out soon !! I don't care if we see xeno's in p1- a1 just that we know which route he took in establishing their role in engineer society . Thanks snorks for that info !! Snorks was giler also involved in prometheus ? How much of a hand does he have in what happens in prometheus. ? Thanks

As far as Prometheus goes its a Prologue to the Story Ridley wants to tell with hints to link the story covered in Alien. Prometheus 2 i feel will explore the Engineers, i think Shaw and David will either come across them, in maybe limited numbers or maybe they are all but dead and only a few in Cryo Sleep who then tell them the story in Flashback... Or they are all dead and the find out via Holograms etc. Ridley will be following what Shaw and David find as Shaw wants to go to where the Engineers came from... i thus dont think they would come across or contact with the Deacon or any Xenos. The movie will answer these questions... Who are the Engineers? Where do they come from? Why/when did they create us? Why did they visit us and leave clues? Who created them? What else have they created? What is there agenda? Where are they all now? It may also touch upon..... Why did they create us to then destroy us? Why did they want to use the Urns whats in them and how/why? Why did they create LV 223. I think this would lead to Prometheus 3 that would then maybe be a prequel to Prometheus or have plenty flash back scenes and would then cover. The creation of Lv 223 and Urns and its/their purpose. The downfall of LV 223 and a explanation for the Murals in Prometheus. And maybe also the connection between the Engineers, the Derelict on LV 426 the Xeno and how it is connected with the Urns and LV223.

Hmmmm. I think I second this idea :-D I already knew from reading the book that The Company had deCypher'd the message (see what I did there? :-D) and that it was "Frighteningly detailed, very specific" in regards to the last hours of the Space Jockey and the Alien's life cycle. And I ALWAYS thought, from the MOMENT I laid eyes on him, that the Space Jockey was a GOOD GUY, in the wrong place at the wrong time. So yes, I second this ;-)

@Voidhawk Some good points and its a question of taste... We never ever get to see Ridleys ideas of the Alien, the only hint was the deleted scenes in which he had one Human cocooned and the other changed into a Egg, now maybe the other was changing into a Egg also. Ridley has not said he dislikes the Queen concept and that it made sense, he has said that the Alien Franchise has been done to death but no one answered who the Space Jockey was and he wanted to answer that question but then not make the movie about the Xeno as not matter how you dress it up the Xeno has been done to death. Regarding the signal... Ash did know and thus the company did know there was something there and had some hint of what it may be but did not 100% know for sure what they was going to encounter, just as in Aliens the Marines had a idea of whats out there but they did not know as much as Ripley. Looking at the Space Jockey Signal it repeats certain words over and over and so it can not be a complicated sentence but a Warning over and over. Maybe translated it was.... Warning, Warning, The Cargo (or Bio Weapon) has been Compromised, Warning , Warning. It may have had more to it than that, but its only a selection of words repeated. However now we have Prometheus and Shaws transmission they may have intercepted that and who knows maybe LV 223 gets destroyed prior to Alien but the message could reach other future Earth craft which leads to a World no longer there but then near another that has another warning signal only in Alien and so maybe the company could link to the two to determine that indeed their is something worth investigating? Now back to Alien.... The Organism Yes it was more stealthy but then look at the scenario a crowded ship, all alone poorly trained and armed crew. Now if we sent in a Marine onto a Cargo ship with a crew who had little or no arms and he had a mission to kill the crew. The Marine could carry out that task with ease, he could use stealth to pick the crew off one by one. Why would he need expose himself in the open...... Now if this Marine was sent to Afghanistan with a Platoon in a more open environment against a more better armed and numerous foe, then that Marine would not have to or be as cautious or stealthy as opposed to if he was all alone behind enemy lines. This is a way to justify the behavior of the Alien Xeno and Aliens Xenos. As Humans would be more willing to be in the open in greater numbers than more cautious if alone. The Organism in Alien had little or no real agenda until you saw the deleted scenes. As it basically went around just killing off the crew just perfect for a Bio Weapon. In Aliens they hunted the Humans down to collect as hosts for further Xeno Organisms. The Alien deleted scene showed this same behavoir that the Xeno Organism collected Brett and Dallas to then use them to turn into either... a) Two Eggs which means when the ship comes across more Humans that means potentially two more Xenos from the Eggs Face Huggers infecting two Hosts and thus now makes [size=200]3 Xenos[/size]... but only once the ship comes into contact with hosts or else its just one Xeno and his Eggs. b) One Egg, One Host. which means that this would instantly create another Xeno prior to any other Humans finding the Ship which means two Xenos. But then if this is the case, why not catch Lambert and Parker? This would then mean the ship would carry 2 Eggs and 2 Hosts for 3 Xenos on board or it would mean 4 Eggs that need Hosts and one Xeno. This is where the Queen comes in and a idea that Snorky had.... If this deleted scene showed one Egg and one Host but this Egg was a Queen Egg (hence size) then this would create a Xeno Queen, the ship would then have one Xeno and a Queen Xeno who can then lay any number of Eggs. Changing the ship from.... Carrying a lone Xeno.... Alien original cut. Carrying either a Xeno and 2 Eggs, or carrying 2 Xenos. Or Carrying a Xeno and a Xeno Queen that has laid countless Eggs? I know which makes more sense for the perfect Organism that has the drive to procreate its species. I understand your point and that is if we go back and remove Aliens etc And only have Alien as it was shown, what we have are the Eggs that are created or get there for a unkown reason that then release the Xeno Organism that after its cycle and host produces a Xeno that kills off as many native Organisms as it can before it is killed or dies out. Hence perfect Bio Weapon. As a Bio Weapon that can reproduce either via Queen or turning Hosts into more Xenos and Eggs, well thats not a perfect Bio Weapon if you intend to populate the targeted location after infestation of the Bio Weapon. The perfect Bio Weapon of today would be a quick acting/killing Virus that can spread but then only has a few days half life so after weeks after the deploying the Virus that kills off targeted hostiles will then die out and have no effect on any persons who then step foot down to the eradicated location.

I wouldn't pay any attention to what's said in a book. Movies should stand on their own merits. The Queen in [i]Aliens[/i] is not contradictory to the [i]Alien[/i] Director's cut; merely an adjunct. There's no reason at all why a Xeno shouldn't become a massive egg layer should the right conditions prevail. Indeed, I've argued that it's a particularly effective way of breeding an exterminator force. There is nothing - nothing at all - in the original that says the Xeno must always act as a solitary animal. I think you're being quite unfair to [i]Aliens[/i]. Far from adding "zippo", it gave us a new look at a particular breeding mode, some great characters, the hive (which you personally don't like) and an update on the situation on LV-426.

There is hope, as Ridley Scott might want to get back to what the story really was... On all discussions we usually tend to go to the Xenos...and that damned mural does not help, but we might be surprised (in a good way) to see that the story is a lot more than talking about bioweapons. See what Frank Herbert really wanted to tell (the OverArch was about Man/Machine and not about drugs and political struggle) Indeed the Company (at that point, a murky evil thing in the background) really knew what was there, and wanted it badly for their weapon's Division. Such is clear cut in the book and clear cut in the Director's Cut, so there was nothing arcane nor mysterious for them there...but the Nostromo crew were unlucky to be on that route. There was no chance meeting, as Bishop was put there especifically to bring the xeno back to Earth, so the overall plot now with Prometheus should (and I hope that) not revolve on the spent xeno thing, nor on the also spent Monster genre, but steer to something else, explaining now in detail what was really going on, and who the Sapce Jockey really is, because I feel ww will see they are not Engineers, and might well be in a long battle against them as it seems. It might happen that the engineer race copies SJ technologies (not accurately though, as the eggs from the original movie would be the the real product and the metal pods from the engineers were pirate copies, given that SJ tech is eminently biological and engineer tech is a mix, as shown by the pods at the Ampule Chamber) It might be revealed that they are part of a radical especies that once seeded life on many planets but then decided to erase their creations for some reason (they would be part of a weird culture anyway, with sacrificial rites to create life) which could mean their religion could be a radical, pervasive one and such could lead to a dangerous culture (life sacrifices - ritualistic culture as the death of that alien at the begining would be totaly unnecessary to a species adanced in biotech, thus that death was purelly ritualistic) The SJ culture could be at war with them, trying to protect life. This could lead to a really interesting plot, were the human like engineers are the villains and other, nonhuman like beings would be benefactors trying to stop senseless destruction... Lets be radical, and so making the murals depicting the original being used as template for the Xenos. A benign creature transmutated into a weapon due its very efficient defensive system...that could be interesting as well. On the other side, depicting a weapon so efficient that their ritualistic culture made it into a symbol of their destructive intent, using life to destroy life...sick, but compatible with the concept of a highly ritualistic culture intent on their purpose, rightful for their mindset

Voidhawk I certainly hope so - that Ridley is moving away from everything after alien (not crazy about a3 - the film itself is ok but it was just an excuse to extend the series). I like all alien films but for p1 -p2 - p3 - a1 I hope this is the case as I have a feeling Ridley wants to set the record straight and say in a "prequel way" with elements of prometheus that this is what should have happened in a sequel. And putting his stamp on it. However I doubt that would be the case. They are probably keeping their options open. "they" being whoever has the final say as to what happens to any film that has to pay the owner(probably "they") of the alien trademark. Just my thoughts. Snorks some info would be nice here !!!!

Well, Aliens is regarded as a fair sequel for it has good direction and a good pace, as "an action/monster movie" and even at its release many critics said that, as the story was well ploted "per si" and made a good movie of sorts it was a fair sequel, in that it was as entertaining as a movie as any good action movie, for that is what it was, adding ZIPPO to the original, and actually denying some basic, visceral ideas from the original just to make money. In a stand alone way I do agree it was a good movie...but that is as far as I go. The concept of a Xeno Queen, its wild adaptations...I really disliked it since the beginning, and it was totally contraditory to the story in the Alien book and in its Director's Cut. They just put it there to make a dramatic point: Human Female (Ripley) against an alien female figure of sorts. It means that the Xeno Queen (eech) is more a product of Ripley's character than anything really important to the Alien original story On both uncut original movie and book it is clear that the xeno is a totally autonomous being, and agressive yes, but not supernatural nor hive like (?) It was more akin to a vespa (procreation wise) and as a White Shark in its aggressiveness. Its actions on Nostromo (and the Director's Cut is faithfull to the book) shows how it acts and its efficiency as a bioweapon. At that, what weird bioweapon would it be if it needed a queen to spawn drones...tactically unwise to create such a weapon, when a totally autonomous one would work much more efficiently...and RS own words already told us that the xenos ARE bioweapons that were being carried in a military vessel found by the Nostromo (actually by the Company, who sent the Nostromo there with "very clear instructions to retrieve the alien weapon" for study, as they knew the Full extent of the original, real Space Jockey pilot, message) These are not fancy thoughts, but the actual plot from the first Alien, and the original story does not fit with the sequels in any way... So I prefer to think that with Prometheus they will do as what they are doing with Predators, cleaning the house and getting back to what the stories should have been since the start. I really hope so...

@Voidhawk: [i]"Prometheus and its sequel may (I hope) steer back to the original idea, erasing all the trash that came later (Aliens included)"[/i] [i][/i] I don't think there's any doubt that we'll eventually see a fleshed out depiction of how the ship on LV-426 met its fate. It's a question that Ridley's been talking about for a long time. Personally, I hope we don't see this in the sequel - I'd like it saved for a future instalment, since there's so much potential in the Engineer's universe. [i]Aliens[/i] is widely regarded as a good sequel to [i]Alien[/i], and it fits in pretty well. All the madness started with [i]Alien Resurrection[/i] and the Alien/Predators nonsense. It won't go away, I'm afraid.

@ oduodu, Giler and Hill have the same level of involvement and control as they did in the AVP's - they give permission and receive money and a cut of the profits for doing so - in other words a pair of vultures

O.o

Ideas flourishing...good ^^ I wrote a long text and poof...damned computer logged me off... Now lets see. I like the idea of sinmplification, and the concept of moving away from Queens/Xenos and whatnot. Putting them as tools, taking out that demonic aura is refreshing. They were tools from an advanced culture. Weapons, soldiers or watever, used in a war or millitary actions...and that is what important on the next movie, what is refreshing. Creating a new character that refreshes the concept and creates a new landmark...a story that goes further in concepts and action as well. I sure hope they do not go the "long gone extinct mighty race" route...that is cliché and overused already! Lets see something new, that is what I hope. And also explanations about who was the pilot of the ship seen on Alien (it is not the ones we see in Prometheus...size and appearance differs enough to set them apart, even though near enough to think it inspired or is a predecessor of the Engineers biosuits. The engineers themselves, even the one at the base/temple/millitary base/weapons cache was different from the one seen at the beginning (look at his neck...just look) but that image could be millions of years in the past, and the base was destroyed 2000 years ago...the gap would be enormous. Ship designs were different but a seeding ship is not, at first, a millitary one, and Juggernauts are war ships, or at least millitary cargo ships. There is a lot to say before the next movie comes, and we all might be wrong and they go the cheap way (done before...) On a side note, my opinion is that movies adapted from books should always be faithfull to the books originating them. They are not stand alone, but cinematic versions of the books and disrespecting that blundered more than one great book. Lord of the Rings is the example of how it must be done, as it was a transposition as faithfull as possible from the books, and the result was marvellous, and producers should learn that and not try to make their versions stand by their weak selves... Not that it applies to Alien. I think the book was an adaptation of the movie and not the contrary, although I might be wrong (will check the book later). But it sure was a lot scarier and more complete than the movie, and I like the movie a lot ^^

@Snorkelbottom Yes thats pretty much the deal, i do think we may get a explanation for how the Urns came about and its connection to the Xeno, and why mankind was scheduled to be wiped out. But it would be something vague like the Water Fall scene, this scene did not show anything come from the DNA of the Engineer, it only showed his DNA break apart into the water, come into contact with some microbes and start to rebuild its self and then go one to show cells splitting and reproducing. Ridley will make the connection but it wont show us Xenos running around thats for sure. Oh also Snorky..... Kudos to you as it was you who mentioned the possibility that Dallas could had been used as a Host for the Egg created from Brett that could be a Queen Xeno. For the ultimate aim of a Organism trying to keep itself alive and procreate this theory makes great sense.

@Voidhawk Yep thats a bummer... i always copy my text to clipboard or notepad before i hit the reply button as if you do not post for a while it logs you out and all your work is gone.... @oduodu I dont think there will be anything done to distance away or disprove the Xeno Queen i dont think Ridley will change a single thing about the Organism. I dont even think he would visit other lifeforms that come from the Black Goo. I think we may by Prometheus 3 get a slight explanation of the Urns and LV 223 but that it wont then lead to a movie about the Xeno, i think the Explanation of the Urns what they do, where they come from and LV 426 and any Xeno connection will be done by a collection of scenes that would only take up like the screen time the Hologram, Cuddles vs Engineer and Deacon Chest Buster scene was. It may simply imply like they came across or created a Organism to use as a Bio Weapon against such a such target for such a such purpose. And LV 223 and the Urns is either part of the process to creating the said Xeno Bio Weapon or that they actually came from re-weaponizing the said Organism. So any connection from Xeno to Urns in say Prometheus 3 may show as little Screen time for the Xeno as say the Hammerpede or Deacon had. Ridley is mainly interested in the Space Jockey Race and who knows Prometheus 3 may have nothing to do with Humans in the equation.

@voidhawk, I truly like your first post Saving the Story.... I just reviewed Alien with Ridley Scott’s commentary for the very 1st time the other morning, the commentary that is, also I looked at all the artist’s concept drawings/sketches, including Scott’s rough sketched story board. RS mentions that somewhere down the road he wanted to do a story about the large 26 foot alien that Dallas, Kane and Lambert discover on the derelict ship, RS even states in an Alien 4 or 5 movie, where he would introduce the SJ story.... Also the commentary of Scotts was incorporated 4-5 years after the making of Alien, so what I am leading to, RS commentary had to been done before Cameron’s Aliens.....Hence RS had a very clear vision of where his masterpiece of Alien was to journey off to.... I only wish today all the sequels of Alien was done by Ridley Scott, no one else, I mean can you imagine how the direction of the Alien universe would had lead the story?? Well that’s my opinion, just thought I’d post it

As far as the Books and the Original Draft Script Star Beast... Ridley just borrowed unused elements and combined them with some of Gigers unused Dune work to create the Temple. Star Beast had a Temple, it had a Mural (which showed a Organism like Grown up Cuddles) the Face Huggers came from Urns that was leathery in appearance and not ceramic like in Prometheus. And also the Face Hugger within was described just like Shaws Baby and the Chest Buster was similar to the Hammerpede... Only the original draft from Aliens final adult Organism is nothing we have seen yet as it was described as having 6 limps and tentacles and implied it could impregnate people like a Face Hugger.

Now we are stuck with ideas and possible venues, and all always geared to what we saw/read/know mixed with our own choices of what would be good or not, but who knows what will come ahead. And as for any crossovers...I like crossovers (I even have a massive crossover fanfic running...) but we need to be careful when dealing with that, and Aliens vs Predators previous movies fried any desire to see more of that happening. I could see Prometheus really going Ctulhu Mytos direction, with a real approach to Lovecraft's works...not hnts nor likenesses, but actually going that directio, with the engineers serving Ctulhu and that being as their God...but then again better no...crossovers are too risky, and something original would be marvellous to see. I still recall the goosebumps I had when the derelict alien ship from the first movie appeared on the screen, and the feeling of utter alienness when the Space Jockey was shown back then...it was trully different, and this is something hard to see nowadays. I miss that, and did not find it on Prometheus, but still I like the story and the possible venues it ensues...

I'm pretty sure that Brandywine/Fox has more influence in this than most people think. That's good and bad at the same time. Good because they understand Ridley's desire to explore new things and unanswered questions. But it's kind of bad because they want to reuse things and even more unused ideas. We'll continue to see some familiar imagery that is forced into the series, as well as themes from the other alien movies Ridley weaved in. Luckily Ridley has hybridized everything and it'll be a story about the alien genetics and the genetic engineers all the way through... Ridley is obviously recycling some of the unused ideas from Alien, but if you really look at Prometheus it bares some similarities to an unused alien 3 script as well. Only this time it was the Engineers who tried to weaponize the aliens in the past and failed. Some of the idea of Fifield morphing into a xeno like creature came out of the unused alien 3 script that involves morphing. They're going back to the morphing cycle and focusing on another side of the genetics. the male/king side..

Uh....sorry but I hope that is not the case....I really do. Lets get rid of this xeno thing....the ideas are more than that...or so I hope.