More Gigeresque Engineer Torture

Ingeniero, thank you for the screen grab!

Love it Ati.

Ingeniero - Glad you like it.

A female Engineer and a male Engineer. Are they different?

Or something is put on the male Engineer's head...

I think these are brain-storming concept works, a concept artist will make some ideas that maybe wont be intended to make it into the picture or based from it... they are interesting thats for sure and do kind of show the Genetic Technology that went into the LV-223 Engineers Suits can be used to make other kinds of Genetic Clothing/Apparel so to speak.

It would be logical that David found survivors, this had to be one of the Reasons for how David had more pristine bodies to experiment with and those infant/child Engineers/Humanoids.   When we first got leaked set photos from Davids Work Shop i was wondering where the Basis for his Experiments come from if he Bombarded and Killed those Engineers.

*Surviving Engineers?

*Dr Shaw?

*Genetic Experiments (using Dr Shaws Eggs)

As a means to at least obtain those Humanoid/Engineer Infants.

With the release of the movie and extras, its more clear David had found Survivors and they were indeed Engineer infants...  and so when i was looking at explanations for the bodies David used for his experiments, and when discussing this a long while back (prior to the Movie Release) i was pondering if the Cathedral offered some kind of Safe Haven from the Carnage outside.

Then we cant rule out some other places they decided to run and hide..... but in either case, after such a Apocalyptic Event with no Warning, any survivors who managed to find some Shelter that protected them from the Bombardment would surely not have stored sufficient Provisions to survive the Long Term Fall out.

So many could have died from Starvation etc, but their remains are in a state that can be experimented upon, unlike those Charred Bodies outside, and then if there remained a few survivors.. they would be so weak and emaciated to put up with any fight from David.

I will add that Matt Hatton hinted at changing scripts... so we dont know when he was brought into the Project, but there was a number of drafts and changes on Harper's Draft by Logan and the work they had done was around the Summer of 2015, i wonder when Harper came on board?   As i am not sure Hatton would be brought in during the last time Green worked on the Project (Autumn 2014) but it could show that the Evolution and Re-working done by Harper to the point of the Final Changes made by Logan, then maybe during this process our Engineers and their City may have had more of a Giger Aesthetic than we ended up with.

David spent 10 years on the planet 4, I'm pretty sure he had whole engineer city to explore. Maybe there were graveyards/catacombs where engineers buried their deceased. Maybe some engineers died of old age or from some disease the day before his arrival and he got their bodies for his experiments. The engineers in the plaza that were welcoming the juggernaut's arrival were doomed from start. I'm sure not all engineers were at the plaza, maybe some were in their homes. The engineers in front of the citadel on the staircase during the bombardment had more time to get to the safety (if there were any shelters inside the citadel).

Indeed Dark Nebula, there could have been many places they could have escaped, we have to logically look at HOW David could experiment on the Engineers though, because he surely got his ASS KICKED in Prometheus, this could be explained as those LV-223 being Genetically Engineered Super Engineers though, but even so the Engineers appear to be Larger than Human on Planet 4 but there heights seem to vary from 6-7ft tall, with maybe some being a bit bigger.

so if the LV-223 Engineers are Genetically Engineered like say the Replicants in Blade Runner, then a actual Planet 4 Engineer could maybe only be as strong as say a 6.5-7ft Physically Fit Human Male, and smaller for Females.  I think the BIG KICKER has to be these beings had NO IDEA of the impending Doom and simply were no prepared for such a Disaster, thus those who found Shelter maybe had no Provisions to last, and over time with a lack of Food and Drink they would be ripe for the Pickings.

Matt Hatton ponders if they could be reanimated but i think this is him not considering the reason for this in Prometheus was with that Device, so David would have had to have found and taken the Neuro Stabilizer with him.  He also proposed the idea of David cloning so it seems...  maybe this is not so far fetched, but then within 10 years we have to ask how does David accelerate Growth?   I think Hatton has pondered a number of things with ambiguity to that it leaves a OPEN BOOK to if these things get explained by RS/FOX

This is a reply to the Last Image i posted on Matt Hattons Instagram,  a reply to the Engineer Child.

matthatt0n

@r.oppenheimer But here's the zinger. If he's already killed everyone in the metropolis, he might be reviving them (we saw this in the previous film) or cultivating them specifically for his 'work'! Same with the different 'conflicting' drawings of Shaw. They could be different Shaws, or the same Shaw revived and reconstructed to be pulled apart again. Or maybe even worse David really is creative in a very human way and the drawings are his plans of what he might have done or eventually did do. I wanted it so that any way you slice it (bad choice of words), he's a bit of a worry to say the least! But that even though we know for a fact he killed them, at least leaving some ambiguity opens it up again instead of closing things off and being reductive. The rest of Covenant is pretty literal and I didn't want to do that in my own little part at least. Cheers!

So this kind of does show the deliberate ambiguity like i mentioned in my previous post, these images and comments do seem to show that potentially David had done some pretty Sadistic things to the Specimens he acquired. 

Certainly if some of this is the case, if it was done as a Movie or a Short its something that surely would not be no PG-13 and even push  R Boundaries for sure...  Be a Cert 18 in UK.

BigDave - Thx for the screen grabs!

'They could be different Shaws, or the same Shaw revived and reconstructed to be pulled apart again. Or maybe even worse...'

Thank you for revisiting these lines by Matt Hatton. I started a topic dealing with his opinion in question last October: http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/46751

'In one of the comments by concept artist Matt Hatton I have found something more bizarre regarding Elizabeth Shaw's fate.

Hatton: 'It wasn't just adults that David 'explored'. Here's a study of an Engineer child. The inference is, what did he do to get the musculature and then skeleton study? Yeesh!...'

--------: '...it's clear, and these are that much more unsettling when we see renderings of the Engineer children... diabolical.'

Hatton: 'But here's the zinger. If he's already killed everyone in the metropolis, he might be reviving them (we saw this in the previous film) or cultivating them specifically for his 'work'! Same with the different 'conflicting' drawings of Shaw. They could be different Shaws, or the same Shaw revived and reconstructed to be pulled apart again. Or maybe even worse...'

--------: "...reconstructed to be pulled apart again"... would mean her fate was even worse than we've seen or imagined... treading into some unspeakable places, where even my imagination was afraid to go!'

If Hatton confirms that it is possible that we see a Shaw clone in Alien Covenant, it can't be stated that Elizabeth is dead. In other words, the character can be brought back, Shaw might return in the next Alien movie.'

For the full comment section, visit Hatton's instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/p/BZXJL5Llrk8/?taken-by=matthatt0n

I really would hate for that to happen.... no resurrecting anyone we had that with Ripley lol

Edit: i would not object to a flash back of David and Dr Shaw though, i think a few of them would not be too bad.

I think the ambiguity is there in his comments so it leaves it open to how they explain or explored what David had done,  we see so many different pieces of work with Dr Shaws fate, and on one hand do we assume David had mutilated her, then put her back together and repeated?  But then some of the work she is evolved into something different so that does not add up, so maybe he cloned her but then if he did this he could Technically never had lost her.

I think a lot of those works where what he had in store for her, and others are just some weird stuff thats going on his his head.  Showing us that this is on Mentally Unstable Android.

Regarding the Engineers though.... indeed i can just picture David recovering a few Females and a Male and finding some way to incapacitate them and then basically impregnating the females against their wishes for the purpose of providing David with Engineer Fetus to Experiment on.  Prior to the Movie i was wondering if David had used Dr Shaw in the same way....

Having David offer Shaw a Covenant, so while she has NOTHING David can offer her a deal, he can allow her to have the ONE thing she thought she could not.... Children.... by suggesting with Engineer Sperm and a few tweaks he could allow Dr Shaw to bare Child.... how would she react to such a offer?

IF we take some of Hattons comments as what David could actually had been up to it does then GIVE us a different outlook to what his Plans for those Thousands of Colonist could be..  Ridley Scott had asked the Question... What Kind of a World would David Create/Build?

If the engineers are sterile which is why they needed the xenomorph dna in the first place, how could David use the females' reproductive organs? 

Well we dont know what the deal was with the Engineers, from Jon Spaights ideas the Engineers had been hinted to have evolved themselves to the point of losing the ability to Procreate.

Ridley Scott at the time of Prometheus had said the Engineers could create in other ways, its just the Sacrificial Scene was how they choose to do it...

Alien Covenant showed us Female Engineers, Ridley Scott claimed these Engineers are Ancient yet only live for about 150 years and so i think we can safely assume with these comments and clues in the movie and the writings David made on his drawings, that the Engineers on Planet 4 could indeed Procreate.

Which does raise Questions to WHY did the Engineers use the Sacrificial Route, and DO they still perform this ritual as of the time line of Alien Covenant?   A lot of stuff now does seem to point to those LV-223 Engineers being either a Outcast Faction who Genetically Engineered themselves, or they was Genetically Engineered by those Planet 4 Engineers for some Purpose.    So the LV-223 Engineers are either to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans...  or they are Group that had done something bad and got kicked out of Paradise and they continued to Engineer themselves...

Either way... those LV-223 Engineers either Lost or could never Procreate, thats just really what i take from all of this i am not 100% sure if thats correct though, but RS comments when he calls those Planet 4 Engineers the Originals does seem to push me to one of THOSE TWO options to explain the LV-223 ones.

Just seems like a jumbled, seat-of the pants mess now. 

Regarding how David could use Females Reproductive Organs, thats quite easy, provided he has the Tools to do so, the Problem with Alien Covenant is everything looked very Iron Age, and Crude.... some concepts simply showing David merely takes out her Reproductive Organs and her Milk Producing Glands....

Doing such a thing would be Scientifically impossible i would assume with say Tools from say hundreds of years ago or longer, but not with Technology and Tools from say hundred years or more in the Future.

Its just a Flaw with how they handled Alien Covenant, because we can see David has managed to vivisect Alien Organisms from results of the Black Goo etc, and also vivisected Engineers and Eggs all with Laser Precision with no Tools that actually should be able to perform this.

If we was to look at it Scientifically and Logically, then all you would need to do is incapacitate a female in some way and have apertures that can extract Egg Cells, that can be experimented on within a Technology more Advanced Laboratory.  Or even Impregnate the Female and Extract the Fetus after a certain point in time to experiment on.

The Black Goo in Prometheus showed us (well hinted) that it can re-write DNA and in doing so can resurrect living cells.  And so if David got a Engineer or Human Female Pregnant and extracted any stage Fetus say from Week 3/4 or latter.

And then expose this to Black Goo, i think we can assume it would mutate/evolve the Fetus and maybe it could survive due to the Xeno-Virus Pathogens effects?

"Just seems like a jumbled, seat-of the pants mess now. "

It really depends what aspects of the Plot laid down by Prometheus we could consider to have now been messed with a bit to much, its something that can be fixed.   I think the WHY would the Engineers Create Life is now even more interesting....  We have to wonder if their Agenda was Mankind, or if the Faction of Engineers on LV-223 had actually taken the ways of the Engineers to Create Mankind, when the intentions was never to do so?

There is so many ways that things can be explored and answered, i hope we get some answers at some point, but certain things have pointed to certain explanations for me...   The Sacrificial/Black Goo, the Reason for LV-223 and Purpose of those Planet 4 Engineers all seems to be not so complicated... its just the Reasons for WHY that is something we basically cant come up with a definite answer for.

I feel like Prometheus had so much potential to be explored and expanded and then the plot was squished by AC and now we will likely just get a rushed dash to the finish line to context with Alien with nothing being explored like why the Engineers created and possibly worshiped the deacon, what happened to the Engineer culture to make them need the xenomorph DNA, why they created us, was Jesus an Engineer, etc.  

I think thats a good point, there was a lot that could be explored, one reason i disliked Alien Covenant because it seemed to take everything the Previous movie had built up, leaving us anticipation for answers to the mysteries and how they could be answered/explored and then just simply swept under the Carpet... i felt The Last Jedi did exactly the same with what Force Awakens had set up.

"Engineers created and possibly worshiped the deacon"

This is a big Question, one that Alien Engineers and Prometheus had hinted at and RS had explained a bit, which was it was simply a Bio-Weapon or Result of a Bio-Weapon they had created to use on Mankind.  (I feel this does not quite add up at all.... and i have a deeper theory)

"Engineer culture to make them need the xenomorph DNA"

As above its quite ambiguous but we clearly see the Sacrificial Goo and Black goo have different effects, i had a theory as Prometheus came out, that months latter when Alien Engineers was leaked, seemed to back this up.   Alien Engineers regarding the Nano-Scarabs, if we look at this as the Goo then it makes perfect sense what was going on..   The Black Goo thus created from Sacrificing something related to the DNA of the Deacon with the Sacrificial Goo.  I think the Engineers Suits, do have some shared Aesthetic  with the Xenomorph, so there has to be a connection...  maybe these Engineers were attempting to Perfect themselves, much like David was with his creations in AC, by trying to obtain certain traits from certain Organisms and apply them to Davids Creation... i think its possible those Engineers were doing the same, but a accident happened where the Fresco Creature was Created.  The Engineers Experimented on this until they got the Mural Deacon which they saw as Perfection.

"why they created us"

The biggest Question of all maybe?  One we maybe have to look at all creation Mythos to find common ground, as each Mythos has a different reason, some are connected though..  For example with the Bible, you have to ponder if Lucifer never rebelled then would GOD had ever created Man?   The Annunaki tale if the Igigi never Rebelled would Mankind had not needed to be created?

Maybe we could look at WHY David was created? Holloway said it was because we COULD... in reality it was not that, it was that the Creation of AI/David was a Legacy and Greatest Achievement of Weyland, the Creation of David made Weyland feel he had become a Step Closer to being a GOD, but then the other reason for creating a Synthetic would be to have them replace Mankind for certain Tasks/Chores and so to be used as a Tool.  (i also ponder if there was another reason, where Weyland was hoping Davids Creation could provide Weyland a Chance to step closer to being Immortal, if he could transfer his Soul into a AI).

So maybe our Creation was for the same reasons as Davids Creation, or maybe the same reasons that David wishes to Pursue his own Creation?  Its very interesting as far as HOW they can explain WHY we was created or WHY the Engineers Create Life.

"was Jesus an Engineer"

They did loosely toy with the idea, but we need to remember Prometheus was not about showing us the Bible etc is about the Engineers, it was about how ALL Mythos/Religion share a common history to interactions with the Engineers.   Ridley Scott said Jesus was a Emissary which i think gave the writer of that Draft 17 Orange Edition ideas to expand upon this...  So yes Jesus could have been likely either a Hybrid, or a Human that was given Knowledge and Teachings of the Engineers and sent down to put us back on track.

I would say that would fit well within the Franchise, and Propose that they SENT a number of such Emissaries to various corners of the Globe,  and when some Cultures turned their backs on the ways of the Engineers, these were cultures deemed doomed...   but that maybe some Cultures who had no contact with the connected continents of Europe, Asia and Africa...  maybe those other cultures who kept to very Ancient ways and Rituals  (Ancient South American Tribes) still respected and listened to their Emissaries, this would be a good explanation to why some cultures still had STAR MAPS way after the supposed 2000 years ago Outbreak on LV-223.  The Engineers may not have came back after this, but some Cultures who DID-NOT execute the Engineers Emissaries maybe had the ways of the Engineers passed on to them after the Outbreak by the Emissaries who remained on Earth.

When you look at the Corruption of Mankind and Morals, some Ancient Cultures lived in very Ritualistic Ways after say the Boom of the Roman Empire and Modern Man, and some Cultures still live today as they had done Thousands of years ago... so maybe these cultures had not offended the Engineers and had Emissaries living among them...  Mayans etc  This is how i can see Emissaries fitting and explain why there was Star Maps after the Period in History after the Death of Christ...

So much squandered potential. 

Another great topic and ideas.  I would love a book of all the artwork that was done for the film.  Let us hope that these concepts will be used in future films and/or universe. 

Another great topic and ideas.  I would love a book of all the artwork that was done for the film.  Let us hope that these concepts will be used in future films and/or universe. 

I think Matt Hatton and Dane Hallet were hopping for a book to be released at some point and so fingers crossed, but regarding concepts in future movies i think we cant rule that out as a lot of unused concepts in the past have been a good basis for something that actually gets used in future movies.

So fingers crossed again!

Davefried81 - Thank you for the kind words. Matt Hatton's comments on his instagram page contain several interesting pieces of info about the secrets of Covenant.

Hopefully the Engineers will get their revenge on David in the next movie. Maybe they could rip his head off again or something worse? Perhaps they can kill him so we can go on with something more interesting.

That bird picture that Ingeniero posted looks interesting. Why does it look like a bird? Are the female Engineers supposed to look like that?

I would not mind some flashbacks with Shaw and David if she is more like she was in The Crossing (the promo-thing for AC) but not the way she was in Prometheus.