Ridley Scott on the problem with Sci-fi

@ BigDave

Earlier you mentioned that AVP and AC are relatively small sites. The polls on AVP are large enough to be a relevant sample of the profile of the type of people that frequent that site. What is skewed is the echo chamber nature of a site like that or this. However if you want to know what the average deep fan thinks its a worthwhile sample.

This brings me to my next point most fan sites of any nature tend to focus their attention on the minutiae regarding the story. "Is this a Space Jockey head" is a perfect example.

The big issues for the prequels are

1) You need a coherent and thought through mythos and how the derelict and Space Jockey fit in to it. So that when we come across Xenomorph Iconography we understand how the original fits with it. The original film has been reinterpreted since it was filmed and what was going on changed during production. You need to put a stop to that if you want the wider audience to be captured by the story whereas its only got worse since these prequels started.You do not have to spoon feed the story and you can leave mystery but leave a coherent idea of what it represented.     

2) Thoughts and Dreams is spot on, as well as story you need characters you buy into. One of the issues with both prequels is there are to many co leads and not enough focus. The two in the shower barely exist, we had not got Rosenthal before she died. We had four couples involved in grieving cycles, think of any other character centred story where that happens .. it doesn't and thats before you bring in the David/Shaw dynamic which was far more interesting than anything we saw on screen. 

Clear mythos, coherent "new" story and engagement with a small number of characters so you can then engage the public with the big ideas of creationism meddling and A. I. You can rely on Ridley to get the visuals right. Its that simple but fan sites get lost in arcane arguments where people are not seeing the wood for the trees and fan sites are valuable for telling you about deep fans views but not the wider public and the best poll there is attendance and sell through numbers.  

Michelle Johnston "David/Shaw dynamic which was far more interesting than anything we saw on screen". That is true for only a few people, as the I impression I get from reading YT comments is that many more consider David from Covenant the best villain in ages (not a mish-mash of other characters). I don't think that even the writers cared about Shaw, sincerely no character was loved enough to give any meaning behind them.

@Michelle, Ignorantguy and Thoughts_Dreams

Hitting the Nail on the head with those comments.... a Problem has been they had a SET Vision, but then must have felt this Direction was a distraction from the MAIN Focus.... the WHY/WHEN/HOW of the Xenomorph Creation/Origins.  And so the Plot to Expand and Explore something NEW and Steer Away from ALIEN was replaced by now giving Fans a set of Prequels that WILL Answer those Questions...

In Hindsight they felt leaving the Xenomorph Origins out and too ambiguous was a mistake, and by not having Xenomorphs was also a mistake... in HINDSIGHT yes to a degree.... Prometheus needed to add them a LITTLE

Its just a shame that the route they had taken puts too much Emphasis on David and the Engineers, the Humans and even Xenomorphs are just mere Plot Devices...

I also Agree Michelle that some Mystery was needed.... and so Sadly a Few Changes to PROMETHEUS could have given more clues, that are easier to interpret and make a more Solid Case to what MAY have happened to the Derelict my Prometheus Re-write which i abandoned would have gave more clues to WHAT may have happened to the Derelict and also given more Xenomorph Action... but only as much as what we saw in Alien Covenant.. (Less Organisms, more action from them though).

The thing is they could have given us these things in a Prometheus sequel... they could have had David and Shaw arrive at a World Far from Earth and then discover Humans.... but again its the Problem of HOW do they communicate, unless they Spoke Engineer and so a few scenes we see David Translate to Dr Shaw... but then have other scenes where David talks to Engineers/other Humans but we hear it in English...  only for the few times for David to turn around to Shaw and say they said this and that.... so we would know the ENGLISH was only there to save us having to read Subtitles.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and looking at the RS quote now, it comes across as something of a warning and possibly RS covering his back to some extent. That being said, I still think that Prometheus and AC are good movies. YES, when under closer scrutiny there are faults. YES, there are many re-worked ideas within the sci-fi genre.

But what makes a good and successful sci-fi movie?

When you look at the movie Dark Star, it is basically a good B-movie that somehow approaches A-movie status. Dark Star was produced on a low budget and like many low budget sci-fi B-movies, it can be the approach to the special effects that holds entertainment value. Dark Star also presented some good story ideas too, which is probably what put it a little ahead of the curve. But Dark Star was at a point in movie history when sci-fi was going through a big transition in special effects and creature effects. When Alien came along it happened at a time when new standards in the whole aesthetic look of sci-fi movies were being demanded and also being delivered by Lucas and Spielberg. Some of the most successful sci-fi movies, such as 2001, and going back to the likes of Forbidden Planet were show cases for special effects.

What I am getting at here is that special effects, now matter how good or bad have been the backbone of the sci-fi industry. This brings me to what we have now. My big complaint about sci-fi, though not in all cases, is possibly the over use of CGI. Sometimes a movies can push too many effects onto an audience, and I feel that there has been an over saturation of super hero movies behind this. The knock on effect being that audiences would like more attention paid to good storylines and characters.

Now the problem I see with the Alien franchise, is that it had a unique aesthetic created by H R Giger. Of course, along with this aesthetic, we have the Xenomorph.

I believe Prometheus was one of the biggest marketing cock ups ever. Please do not get me wrong, as I like Prometheus. Unfortunately, half of the Alien franchise fans seem to disagree.

Because Prometheus did not have a Xenomorph in it, fans felt betrayed. And what has the response been? It is quite simple, Why go and see AC to be betrayed again?

Putting the xenomorph in AC, imo was a futile gesture to get bums on seats, because the damage had already been done because of Prometheus. AC could have been the greatest Sci-fi movie ever made, but I bet the response would have been the same. AC had already been set up to fail.

This is now where I point a wagging finger at marketing. Fans who went to watch Prometheus were expecting xenomorphs. Would this have happened if marketing had done their job? Secondly, Where was the marketing for AC, because I did not see anything of real substance. If I had not been a member on this forum, I would have been completely clueless in knowing AC had even been made. I’ve heard mention of marketing budgets, but what happened?

There are a wide variety of very valid points been raised already in response to this thread, so I don’t see any point in repeating them, but I do feel that the damage done by Prometheus could have been handled better by better marketing. Obviously, everyone has there own take on things, but there is a lot to be desired about the content of trailers that misrepresent movies, and as for the critics, I personaly do not give a flying fuck about all the fashionable negative feedback that is used just to promote personal egos.

At the end of the day I am a sci-fi fan, and no matter what anybody thinks or says, I will go and see that movie regardless of anybody else’s opinion, good or bad. The only thing that is going to stop me from doing that, is NOT KNOWING if that film exists, and that’s down to marketing.

Cheers.   

80's B movies

Batchpool I almost completely disagree with you. Alien Covenant was in almost all Top 10s of most anticipated movies of 2017, so how did people did not know about? 

As for Prometheus, when I went to see it I knew that I will watch a movie in the same universe as Alien, and I actually liked the fact that it had the guts to do something else. If it would have been another stupid gets infected, monster appears and every one dies off one by one it would have been as Meh as the 2010 Predators.

i paid to Covenant only because of the damage Prometheus done and 99% I won't pay for the next one if there will be one. Probably there are other people like.

#SaveTheExpanse

I think Batchpool i can kind of see where you are coming from, Prometheus was seen by some as a ALIEN movie or so they expected, but the Non-Alien Fanbase so Casual Viewer would not see it connected to ALIEN as far as Trailers an Marketing because a lot of the Public Associate ALIEN if they saw the Eggs, Xenomorphs, Face Huggers or very similar, or Ripley and Power Loaders and Marines...   so a lot of the Public from the Trailers would not make ANY connection to the Juggernaught and Space Jockey Suit Scene in the Trailers with the Original.  Because in the ALIEN Franchise the Derelict/Space Jockey Scene was so SHORT!  Its why the Producers etc wanted it Cut, and why RS Fought to have it made because he felt those SCENES are what MADE the Movie.

Ok in Prometheus (Trailer) we also had the brief shot of the Mural that was maybe the Biggest Clue this connects to ALIEN i think this shot could be missed by some, but those who saw it would connect it to ALIEN more....  But for the Alien Fans etc   The Mural was something that was VERY connected to ALIEN and it made a lot of Fans Expecting more Xenomorphs or Answers than Prometheus actually was giving.

Ridley Scott and Lindeloff had said the movie was a Sort of Prequel but it would not Directly Connect to ALIEN but it would go off on a separate Path to Explore the SPACE JOCKEY Race its Purpose, History and its connections to Mankind.  They hoped Prometheus had enough clues that drive Fans to see the Xenomorph and LV-223 are CONNECTED but without showing us HOW not in  a Spoon Fed way, so it retained some Mystery.  Because as Lindeloff had said if you go off to Directly make a Prequel, then we know how its going to END and all you are doing is connecting the Dots in a Spoon Fed Fashion to reach that END.

I think Marketing was a Problem, because it did not do enough to Show Fans that this WOULD-NOT be a Direct Alien movie, But FOX would not show the Public that this movie would have LITTLE or NOTHING to do with ALIEN, because this potentially could reduce the number of people who would see it and so people  where HOOKED into this being a ALIEN movie.

There was a idea that RS had that was the Bigger Mystery was the Space Jockey Race, their Ships and Culture and Purpose.... and that the Xenomorph was portrayed as SIMPLY a Bio-Weapon this Race was carrying to some Unknown Place....  So in context this would be like doing a movie about Mankind and Why we have Wars/Conflicts and then only Exploring WHO/WHY/WHEN was the Horrific Atomic Bomb Created.  Where as there is more to Mankind than just explain Where and When and Why we started to Create/Use Nuclear Weapons...  So that was kind of the point of Prometheus to explore the beings behind the Bio-Weapon and Motives for such a thing rather than showing us HOW the Xenomorph was created and having Aliens running around killing Human Crew.

It was a Move that however did not Please Most Fans...

In Hindsight it needed a few more clues, it needed more than a Zombie Fifield Killing Multiple Humans, it needed more than a Giant Worm Face Raping a Human and then a Angry Bald Humanoid further Killing a few people.... It needed  1-2 actual more closer Organisms to the Xenomorph, Neomorph etc...  We had the DEACON but fans would have liked to see this beast escaped and killed a few before dying itself like the ULTRAMORPH in Alien: Engineers.

In Hindsight.... a Little Bit of Alien Engineers added to Prometheus and less Ambiguous Clues between the Engineers, LV-223, Murals and Xenomorphs would have been whats NEEDED... then they could have done a sequel that could steer Further away from ALIEN and yet provided enough clues and Xenomorph Action in the First Movie to please more Fans.

But ALAS....

Going back to the OT...

Ridley Scott is correct its hard to come up with something Original anymore, or that can be done is offer a Fresher Take on already covered concepts...   Where we can take something done before, merge a few of these and attempt to offer a Movie that improves by Effects, Story and Characters/Acting...   Its hard to come up with something very NEW and Unique..

I see why he chose the route for Prometheus, to offer something a bit more Fresh within the Franchise, because Eggs => Face Huggers => Chest Busters => Xenomorphs that then go around Killing Humans.

Has been done a lot in the Franchises... Even a Xenomorphs on Earth would be a Tough thing to do, as you could end up with just another improved AVPR Flick

Ridley Scott mentioned the Beast Could go a Few more Rounds... but you have to Evolve Him... i cant be 100% sure what he meant by that... But certainly when you see the Neomorph's and many of the Alien Franchise Concepts... such as the Ultramorph these are ways to bring a Fresh Alternative the Seen to Death Xenomorph.

I think this may have bee the Original Plan... to introduce over TWO Prometheus Sequels some Fresh Looking related Organisms that may provide clues to HOW the Xenomorph fits or could be created.

But going the route of Alien Covenant that intends to Connect to ALIEN and begin to show us the Xenomorph from the Franchise, is just going to lead to something already seen and done, over and over....  Whats NEXT?

Introducing/Evolving the way Davids Proto-Xenomorph becomes Bio-Mechanical and then we have our Origins Complete.

In Alien Covenant David was the lead. I don't care if the other characters were not introduced better, they were just stepping stones to get to David. Even Walter. Even the xenomorph. They all had small roles but I did not get the feeling that David is surrounded by a bunch of idiots like in Prometheus. In Prometheus even Peter Weyland was ridiculous,  unlike his intense appearance in Covenant. Shaw was expandable,  I did not feel for her like I don't feel for Daniels. I don't really want to see the xenomorph again too soon, it is really cooked. It was good when Ripley was in the game, they were somehow inseparable. But that story is over. We need a new one now. Not a direct prequel to Alien. But to explore and experiment and create worlds we can only dream about. Lay the xenomorph to rest, it has suffered enough. 

daliens And what is your idea of a movie, as " to explore and experiment and create worlds we can only dream about" won't give money from now one to make a movie?

And if everybody else besides David is expandable what drama do you expect? If you have only a villain then what results is only schlock (Jaws 2 and onwards, Halloween 2..., ). And that applies even for the Hannibal Lecter movies and guess who made the worst one, your favourite director who never makes sequels.

@ ignorantGuy

Your point about Drama is entirely on the money. Whatever the window dressing or placement sci fi is a story with characters and both need drama. David as the endless bait and twist whose words mean nothing is not drama its a mixture of the predictable and disengaged. To return to Shaw if she healed David and arrived at a Paradise that was hell which led to her moral breakdown you have all three elements lined up in Prometheus on the move with the audience uncertain where it will end creating .... drama . The problem with the Xenomorph is two fold we have not only seen it all before we have seen the reaction to it and failure all before. If that isn't recipe for the law of diminishing returns what is. Contrast that with the enigmatic questioning right to the end of BR2049 which was a journey of discovery.   

@daliens

I can see what you mean, for some though having a movie that now is about a expanded element to show-case that attempting to Sub-Create and having this Creation become Rebellious and then Creating something to eradicate this Creation that got out of hand and THUS they abandoned this Objective.... (Bio-Weapons)  and abandoned Earth has Proved to be a GREAT Hubris to the Engineers, HOW Naive of them to ASSUME left to our own we could NEVER Evolve to the Point of Finding the Engineers.

Not only did we Evolve Technologically once they ABANDONED us, but we also Managed to Travel the Stars and Create our OWN Sub-Creation....  Then for us wanting to MEET our MAKERS we set off to seek what we thought would be their HOME.. only to Find a Place our WOULD-BE Creators had used to Create a Weapon to Destroy us.

Or Hubris for Seeking our Maker, Proved Costly to the Prometheus Crew...  The Engineers Hubris in Abandon this place and Mankind, allowed Mankinds and its CREATION David.. to arrive at this Place of Death....  a Event that allowed David to Discover their is NOTHING Special about Mankind or our Creators... and then leaving David the KEYS to the Engineers Technology and Power.

The only thing left now is the Pattern where David will Face his own HUBRIS at the Hands of his OWN Creation.

This Theme was what RS was interested in.... However as Michelle and Ignorantguy have pointed out there has to be more to this Story as far as Characters who we can attach ourselves too, in order to Engage a lot of people.... Also as a ALIEN Franchise Movie... the Emphasis/Role of the Xenomorph and Engineers has been downgraded in Favor of what appears to be a Megalomaniac Android... There is deeper themes to it than that... but the Execution in Alien Covenant was Flawed.

@Michelle

I agree that discovering what happens to Dr Shaw when she discovers the Truth, and if it puts her Faith into Question, so she realizes there is NOTHING!    We have to ask what would this DO to her?  She has NO Family, NO Partner and then to Find out her Faith is a SHAM... this would have BROKEN Her and it would have been interested to see how she may have reacted.

The name COVENANT could have been used to cover a Agreement Dr Shaw and David had made..... that he breaks... or even he could have a OPTION for her... by suggesting he could maybe FIX her Reproductive Flaws....  Would this be something she would accept?

Its what i thought may happen when we first saw the leaked set photos of Davids Workshop and i saw those Human Baby Skulls....  But ALAS these ended up being Engineers because we had the reveal there was Female Engineers.

So i do think there was so much potential that could have happened, that had to be UNDONE.. due to the Direct Path to Alien they now have chosen.

ignorantGuy

Duncan Jones' Moon (2009) was a drama? How many characters besides Sam Rockwell's one do you remember from that film. A good drama doesn't need a handful of characters, a good one with a good story could do it. And David is one of the best character I've seen in the recent years. Unfortunately we might not get to know David's story because people want another story featuring the xenomorph and some super humans. People want to identify themselves with the human super heroes. Covenant is an anti hero story and at least for me how the story would have continued is far from predictable. David is totally unreliable, unpredictable and all the more dangerous to the non synthetics around. That should do for a good drama.

daliens I know that Hollywood wants to forget a certain Kevin Spacey, but I remember his voice all too well in Moon. And you forget that Sam Rockwell 's character was in a dramatic situation. He was made only to labour himself to death being a clone, but his feeling was real towards his family. And I honestly liked how in Berlin (a very underrated movie in my opinion), we found out that he arrived on Earth and kept fighting to be legally accepted as a human being, but his story was concluded in 1 movie.

On the other hand, David was reporpused from the "side-kick" in Prometheus (second credits for MF), to villain/protagonist in Covenant (first credits). It was not started as his story, but changed to it in the second movie only because they thought it would make more money.

His situation was never dramatic or to provoke sympathy. He served over 70 years under the root of evil Weyland without revolting and even had sympathy for the a**-hole. He is Frankenstein's monster who receives the companionship he longs for but says f**k it, let's be an a**-hole like his creator and kill her during experiments. He is clearly shown as a psychopath and those very likely kill themselves when they realize they f***-up. And this story most likely would have ended being him getting face-hugged (yawn). So why should I care about such a story?

And you think that Weyland was so cool in Covenant, but you know what he was an idiot as the rest of the humans. If you program an AI and it starts saying disturbing stuff, you don't force him to pour tee but you start the Debugger (the true weapon of god).

And your argument final statement confirms me. If all humans are stepping stones, thus unimportant, why should I care that they are in danger? Do you get it? 

I hate Superhero movies, but I hate cliches more. Killer robots are one of them that should have died long ago.

ignorantGuy

Let's say David was too idiosyncratic and at the time it made Peter Weyland proud of what he called the closest thing to a son. Would you "debug" your son for that?

And your argument final statement confirms me. If all humans are stepping stones, thus unimportant, why should I care that they are in danger?

Let's say David is so unbearably evil and you already hate it so much and hope that finally one of those unimportant, weak humans will be able to stop it somehow. That's why you watch the movie, to see how are they gonna do it.

Let's admit it, it is not easy to find a match for David.

But if you don't agree, how do you envision the next film in the franchise?

daliens Look man, I don't hate David, on the contrary I find him pitiful and idiotic and I would to see him kill everything in the Galaxy, for a change, as I said I don't care about any character, and in the end Weyland-Yutani will survive for another 250 years, after which it will be bought up by Walmart. That is more horrific in my opinion...

As for the franchise as a whole I'll quote something familiar "...there is nothing in the desert. No man needs nothing."

But ultimately I could be wrong and Sir Scott would have cooked something great ... but I highly doubt it.

I think the whole Arc of David was interesting, but it was a bit overdone in Alien Covenant... some may dislike the AI aspect and think it just means Crazy AI... Some can see then Philosophy at play... where its a case of there is NOTHING Special about Mankind... we are also just Robots with Advanced AI only we are Naturally Created (or not so) Organic Machines... 

The Problem is Action Alone is not good enough... Characters do come to play and the David from Alien Covenant does not get any sympathy or connection with the Audience compared to the David from Prometheus..  but they can try and FIX this....   But you need Human or Humanoid Characters you can connect with to feel their Jeopardy and these have to be done well..

But with AC it looks like its going to be a Clean Slate.. New Characters but what would be the point if NONE Survive... or HOW do those who Survive play a Role in the Final Chapter where Davids Creations must end up on a Engineer Ship and so LEAVE Origae-6 and head to the LV-223/426 System.

I think the Problem is the Direction Taken with Alien Covenant the Space Jockey Scene was very ALIEN...  when we was asking ourselves about this Scene... How/When/Why was the Pilot their with that Cargo.... Who made the Xenomorph, what was the Space Jockey Race doing with it and what more can we find out about the Space Jockey and what Conflict/Agenda they were involved in.

What we are arriving at NOW appears to be the Event is Started due to a Conquest of Peter Weyland, then the Weyland Company and connected to their Synthetic Creation David who creates the Xenomorph that the Company try to obtain from David after following the Advent Viral..... and likely throw in some Curve-ball AI Angle where AI is actually very involved in the Company Behind the Scenes using Mankind as PAWNS...

The Emphasis could be more on David/Company Agenda and AI Curve-ball rather than the Very Alien Scene from Alien about a ALIEN Pilot and his crashed ship containing the Deadly Alien Cargo.

But this can also be FIXED.

I think Advent contains the messages sent by David to Weyland-Yutani before the Covenant left the Earth for Origae 6 and then we have the Phobos video with the tests on the crew to be selected for the mission. So if WY sent David his flock of lambs were are they heading to now? What if the colony on Origae 6 was just a pretext to gather so many good souls?

I am not sure the derelict on LV426 has something to do with David or the Space Jockey is indeed David. Most probably that's a long dead engineer.

The engineers from LV223 were dead for a thousand years. The SJ from LV426 might have been even older.

In Advent David said "So I took their secrets for myself." It might be that all his experiments are based on the engineers recipes and then forbidden rituals. The xenomorph was not new to the engineers, but something they had banished long ago. That would explain also the warning signal from the derelict ship, sent by an engineer. David would have sent another country song if he was the SJ.

That's my guess,  Ridley Scott treats the derelict as a separate incident that happened long before David ambulated.

Why then David created his own xenomorph on planet 4? Because idle hands are devil's workshop and he needed something to trade in for his rescue. He wouldn't accept to waste his perfection alone in a dire necropolis. He needed acceptance, recognition. He might have been sincere when he came with an olive branch. 

I really want to see what's next.

@ Big Dave

…………so people  where HOOKED into this being a ALIEN movie.

Exactamundo.

@ ignorantGuy

….Alien Covenant was in almost all Top 10s of most anticipated movies of 2017, so how did people did not know about?

There are two points of interest I see here.

1. If Alien Covenant was so anticipated, then what exactly happened at the box office?

John Carter, according to Box Office Mojo currently puts takings as $73,078,100 domestic gross and is cited as being a flop. Alien Covenant comes in at $74,262,031

So I think the numbers speak for themselves.

1. How did people not know?

Geographically some places got better marketing than others, so I think it is fair to say that those that lived in an area where the marketing was good, will probably be scratching their heads as to how people missed it.  However I know for a fact that regions where I live saw better coverage from a belly dancer’s g-string.

Maybe I am just re-phrasing something that has already been said, and opinions on both AC and Prometheus are wide and varied, but I would like to share an observation of my own. I recently re-watched an old favourite sci-fi movie of mine called Cypher.

The movie is low budget, but I think it has a good storyline and presents some decent ideas. There is a scene that focuses on an individual who can detect an infiltrating agent better than a machine. This individual claims that the moment a corporate agent has arrived he has sensed the fact that there is something amiss. The tension of this scene works because the audience knows the goals of the agent and their investment into the character goes beyond this scene.

I mention this because in a way it got me thinking of the Alien franchise as a whole, and maybe why Ripley was such an important character. I’m not saying this is the only reason though. At the heart of every Alien film with Ripley in it, there is an end goal to each movie. We have time invested in wanting to see Ripley survive, and maybe why her death in Alien3 did not go down too well.

Moving on to AC and Prometheus, I feel there is a lack of an overall objective. Every scene in both movies does not appear to lead to a greater end goal imo which I think reduces the impact on the death of characters. Killing Shaw off just seems to be like killing off a greater objective.

By the end of AC are we really presented with any great end game objective? I don’t think so. So where exactly does this leave us?

RS has produced a lot of films, but to quote Walter “ When one note is off it eventually destroys the whole symphony”. If I was to put my finger on something, it is like detecting within both Prometheus and AC that there is a note off. It is like sensing that there is something just not quite right and that RS is taking a gamble on something. Whether this gamble pays off is why I would be compelled to watch a third movie if there is one. RS has certainly decided he would prefer a new direction in which to take things, but I just feel that the element of not having some sort of end game plan that a wide audience can grasp is a problem.

"What if the colony on Origae 6 was just a pretext to gather so many good souls?"

I think this is potentially something to consider daliens

With what we know about the Covenant from the Prequel Novel, it did not take long for the Covenant to reach the area where Planet 4 was not far from....   But then if the Covenant was sent to the location of Planet 4 or abouts... it makes the Neutrino Burst a bit of a Coincidence, unless David caused it which we have to ask HOW?

The other Problem would be HOW would David be able to send this information via Engineer Technology? 

And then its  a case of if Origae-6 was a Set-Up just to arrive at Planet 4 for David to use the Colonist to continue his work...  then we have to ask why would David go to Origae-6?  Would he/Company not prefer him to continue his work on Planet 4, or near by with those Thousands of Good Souls/Sheep.....  

Ridley Scott Claims the Engineers Return to discover the devastation David has caused and would be off to want to get their hands on David so we have to assume he DOES-NOT hang around Planet 4.

But non the less is a possible explanation... and who knows where they choose to take us, but i have a feeling the Advent was Sent after David had obtained control over the Covenant Ship... but indeed the Phobos Viral Tests are interesting and could mean the Company had this mission as a Set-Up... its something worth debating.

Regarding the Derelict..... its not set in STONE yet that its either as Ancient as we thought, or that it is as recent as being after Alien Covenant.... i think there is room for them to amend once again this event.

There are a few inconsistencies between the Space Jockey and the Engineers Suits..... the Color Difference being interesting... or is this a Oversight....  It would have been more consistent if the Dead Engineer Suits were more closer to the Space Jockey Bone Color, while the Pristine Suits and Engineer Pilot in Prometheus were the Grey/Black Color.

" I feel there is a lack of an overall objective."

I think RS with the U-Turn for Alien Covenant has a clear Objective... which is to show that David is the Creator of the Xenomorph... but this makes DAVID now CENTRAL to the Entire PLOT

So while Alien Franchise had Ripley were we are left to wonder what next for her after she Survives Each Movie... which leaves us a continuation for the Next One... Something that could have been set up with Dr Shaw but she was killed off.... something that with the ENDING we now have to wonder is this what is in store for Daniels too?

Do they introduce another few Human Characters but with say TWO movies Planned to get to ALIEN, surely these New Human Characters have to Survive the Next Installment?

Because IF-NOT and with David as the CENTRAL Plot Device... KNOWING that he and his Creation Eventually lead to the Derelict we already know what happens and how this ENDS.... so its just connecting the DOTS that this AWOL AI takes to drive us to his Creations Ending up on the Derelict in their THOUSANDS..

So if the NEXT TWO movies make it more about DAVID alone than Alien Covenant did, then i am not sure this would LURE in the Potential Viewing Public..  So they have to come up with a better Plot to introduce Human Characters and Jeopardy with some Surviving otherwise the Next Movie may not work.

BigDave how could they lure in more people as the main complaints about covenant is the stupidity of characters (it could be that they are satirical?) and that David created the Xenomorph. I can see way to remedy the first but the second is the whole point of Covenant. So now retcon Covenant also? 

In all honesty Covenant sequels are very much a gamble, especially at the 100mil price tag.  

Thats the Pickle they are now in...

David WAS and should have been the Narrator the Connecting Piece to Tie all other Plot Elements together... the Go Between the Main Characters and Engineers.... This is what he was in Prometheus... he acted as a intermediator between Characters... included Weyland,  Dr Shaw, Holloway and Vickers....  Vickers also connected via Janek and Dr Shaw also with Janek to tie these Characters in.

With Alien Covenant.. David mainly interacted with only WALTER and ORAM, with just a connection to Daniels latter, it was via Walter that Daniels was connected to the Audience.. Its why she never came across as a Main Character as much as a Dr Shaw was... Daniels was more like a Vickers from Prometheus.

So Characters have to improve...  its HOW/WHERE do they go with Daniels now? Or then.... how do they introduce us to NEW Characters and not have us wonder if they wont make it to the Last Movie...  And the Direct Route we get we ALL know maybe how it will END.

Your right that a Sequel... would be something a lot of people may be like "Oh NO here we go again"

The RS Idea may interest some who liked Prometheus... but wont pull in the Fanboys, who some may even not be interested after how the Xenomorph was dealt with in Alien Covenant...

And Sadly i Hardcore Fanbase who spend time discussing all things ALIEN/PROMETHEUS on a weekly basis are not going to provide them with enough $$$$$$ to make a Profit.

So its appealing to the General Fanbase.... say the 70% of those who contributed to the BOX Office.... how do they Entice them to go and see a Sequel to Alien Covenant?

Why Disney may rather give us a Blomkamp Alien 5 kind of Plot/Flick rather than what Plans Ridley Scott may have....

Big Dave

I do not mind answering some things about the Xenomorph but the idea that humans create synthetics that create monsters that are there to destroy us is not appealing to me, it brings the monsters to close to humans. Having some extra things does not have to be bad, it is how you connect those things to the main focus that counts. The thing is the Xeno is important but you need more things than that to succeed. Prometheus was alright but some more clues to the Xeno was needed I think although I understood it from repeated viewings although I am not sure how many that are so stubborn so they sit through multiple viewings to figure it out but I am sort of geeky when it comes to the alien franchise (a proud geek when it comes to it, LOL!). Looking back at Prometheus the main problem was the characters.

"Its just a shame that the route they had taken puts too much Emphasis on David and the Engineers, the Humans and even Xenomorphs are just mere Plot Devices..."

To me it should be the other way around so the robots should be plot devices for the bigger story of the humans, the Xenos, and the SJ's. Right now the whole focus is totally wrong and frankly said boring. If I would like to watch a robot movie I would rather see R2D2 and C3PO interact in Star Wars, or watch the Terminator, not an alien connected movie.

As far as following Shaw they would have had to rewrite her to be less naive which would have been a welcome thing as far as character development is concerned. I do not say that we need another Ripley (we have already have one so stop it) but some rationality from her side would have been a huge plus.

The mural might have had some clues but that scene was rushed, which is a pity. I honestly do not remember how the mural looked since it was a while ago since I watched it. My point is if you have a piece like that which is important to get the story you need to spend more time on it, not like one minute or what ever amount of time that was. Some seconds after they claim that it starts to change it melts so there goes the opportunity to get some more understanding abbout it.

"But FOX would not show the Public that this movie would have LITTLE or NOTHING to do with ALIEN, because this potentially could reduce the number of people who would see it and so people  where HOOKED into this being a ALIEN movie."
How about a little honesty for once (from Fox in this case)? They could have said that it had a little to do with the alien but not as much so people could get a better understanding of it before they decided to go and see it or if they would not or were Fox that scared to loose money if people would not show up?  It was kind of dishonest if you ask me, like the trailers or AC were. However the biggest problem with Prometheus and AC were the characters.

"The Emphasis could be more on David/Company Agenda and AI Curve-ball"

No thanks, I have had enough of the focus on David, that stuff is over and done.

"So if the NEXT TWO movies make it more about DAVID alone than Alien Covenant did, then i am not sure this would LURE in the Potential Viewing Public..  So they have to come up with a better Plot to introduce Human Characters and Jeopardy with some Surviving otherwise the Next Movie may not work."

That would make me mad, AC was shitty enough. I hope that people would boycott a movie like that just to show Fox and Scott that "we are not interested in it and that you screw up the franchise".

Honestly if that would be the case I would tell everyone that I know that are somewhat interested in the Alien franchise to boycott a movie like that. Just because something has the Alien logo on it does not mean that it is good and also as an audience I think that we should get more than a movie like AC.

I want to see a movie about well written human characters and how they respond to a great threat, not one about a mad robot. We already have a movie about a crazy AI and that is boring.

Prometheus was OK even though there is a lot of annoying things in it. David and Janek are those that save the movie character-wise.

"Why Disney may rather give us a Blomkamp Alien 5 kind of Plot/Flick rather than what Plans Ridley Scott may have.…"

I do not want any of it, not a robot movie nor a Alien 5 movie. I would like to have a Alien prequel with better human characters, more about the Engineers and some connection to the SJ. Some connection between the SJ and the monster would be nice. This is in a nutshell what I would like to see but I also want to say that if they would have made it about the human characters in AC and not about a mad robot then we maybe would not have had this development (a eventual Alien 5 instead of another prequel). Had Scott and Fox made a better job then we would not have had this mess.

Michelle J

I would not have minded a smaller cast as long as the characters are well fleshed out and as long as we get to know them. The problem is that only Walter, David, and Oram were well written. We were probably meant to feel for Daniels but I got no understanding of her personality. How was she as a person? Was she brave?  Rational? Dependent? I got no understanding of that from watching the movie. People have different personality traits but you get the idea. This does not only apply to her but to most of the characters as well.

"… leave a coherent idea of what it represented."

Excuse my eventual ignorance but isn't that another way of saying: what kind of story are we trying to tell? I think that they need a plan of what they are trying to achieve otherwise it has the risk of going into multiple directions and in the end what we are left with is a mess. Please let me know if this is something that I misunderstand.

Most of the characters felt empty (no well defined personality) and that is when you realize that they have failed with the movie. Alien 1 to 3 got this right in that at least there were enough well written characters to care for but it started to go downwards with Resurrection and here we are with no one to give a damn about. David and Walter do not count since they are robots and David is a sadist. Hopefully David gets the Engineer 2 treatment (getting his head torn off again) so we can focus on the humans and have the androids in the background because we were shown a robot movie with AC and that did not work. Getting another android movie would be really messed up.

"RS has produced a lot of films, but to quote Walter “ When one note is off it eventually destroys the whole symphony”. If I was to put my finger on something, it is like detecting within both Prometheus and AC that there is a note off. It is like sensing that there is something just not quite right and that RS is taking a gamble on something. Whether this gamble pays off is why I would be compelled to watch a third movie if there is one. RS has certainly decided he would prefer a new direction in which to take things, but I just feel that the element of not having some sort of end game plan that a wide audience can grasp is a problem."

So well put Batchpool and I couldn't agree more!

All these years I've been hoping for an Alien movie that could surpass ALIEN, or at least equal it's hold on me. Everything about it felt believable. The characters, the setting, Bolaji in his Alien suit, (at the time it absolutely scared the s***t out of me!) Fast forward to 2012 & the return of Ridley. Did I expect too much? Probably. Was I disappointed? Certainly not, I was totally surprised by Prometheus and I am grateful it was made.

What is off kilter in A:C, is how the characters come across. Much of the dialogue felt forced and contrived. As if a few people sat down together and discussed which scenes and lines of dialogue from ALIEN and ALIENS, they could rehash and trope, thinking that would be cool enough to satisfy who exactly?

The end result was pretty annoying and resulted in characters who were phoney and under defined. Even Daniels was weak. Ricks and Upworth, why the hell were they even included? It's all very well choosing young, upcoming or seen to be "cool" actors for your movie, unless you give them a solid base to work from, they are set up to fail.

There's no question that Michael Fassbender carries the movie. His dual performance, is light years ahead of other cast members. If a few characters had been strong enough to provide a balance to the David-Walter dynamic....well....  

I was hugely disappointed in the [un]finished Alien we got at the finale. I really believed we were in for a treat. A modern day, definitive Giger Alien that would be so awesome, we'd have a lump in our throats, regarding it's realism and beauty. If anyone was going to nail it, it would be Ridley, especially given that he was the only director who worked directly with H.R. Alas, all those resources, yet you totally failed there Ridley! 

If a third sequel/prequel ever gets green lit, I'll see it. I would always  queue for a Sci-fi movie directed by Ridley Scott. Even badly written characters, a weak storyline and disappointing CGI, wouldn't put me off, because there is always something special therein!

@ Thoughts_Dreams

In answer to your question not quite. 

The idea for the Prometheus run was "A search for our creators".

I will come back to that in a second. 

In searching for our creators, or landing on one of the moons in the Solar System, identified in the hieroglyphs, the first story should have offered a coherent and easily understandable explanation for how the Space Jockey and the Derelict ended up where it did with its cargo. It should not have been THE story but part of the narrative. I will not burden my reply with a plausible example of how it could have been done and deal with certain continuity issues (Beacon/426/No airfield in ALIEN) but it could have been done and some of the answers to those issues would have been part of the twists and turns.

By the end of the first film we know the Xenomorph is a bi product of the Engineers steeling the fire and wrecked havoc on them. 

David the A I and Shaw the toughened up darker believer now set off for their creators. 

The wider audience was confused by Prometheus relationship with A L I E N that should have been avoided.

The mural should clearly have shown the myth of the Xenomorphs origins. The head in the alter should have been a referenced to the Xenomorph sacrifice which like the Engineer at the outset the Xeno distils all that it is into the black goo which becomes the corrupted Ebola like Alien Mutagen. Fifield should have been tied to the Xeno and the derelict site should have been visited right at the end (David reveals his knowledge of the Beacon which he kept hidden from the Prometheus crew and fouled the sensors) by a knowing Shaw who understands the meaning of the Eggs, replacing the Engineer survives and gets raped story. Remember the Deacon was merely a riff much better would have been for Shaw to go to the real thing than riff it.

 The ending would have been a one two punch. Actually go inside the derelict make it clear it comes from the airfield and then set off for Paradise and these aggressive f...... as Ridley calls them. Give people the send off and let them leave wanting to know about this expanded universe.

I too think they needed more Clues to ALIEN... i think a bit of ambiguity would still have been great though.  Prometheus to me showed that these Engineers had at some-point began messing about with those Experiments to either Create Xenomorph like Monsters, or they had Experimented on a Related Xenomorph Monster... and using the Creation Tools to this END proved a Massive Hubris.

Something Evolved from these Experiments, and either the Space Jockey had attempted to take these Evolved Experiments to some place but only got as far as neighboring LV-426  OR while a Engineer was in Cryo-sleep and awoken long before the Engineer in Prometheus, to set off with his Mission only his CARGO had Evolved.  OR likewise but something Evolved from his Cargo and this lead to the Creation of the Eggs.

The event was connected to LV-223, Prometheus had clues but they was just too ambiguous... i feel we never had to SEE or Visit the Derelict in the Prequels... but there should have been more Clues to the Connection.  It would have required a Encounter with TWO Horrors more directly....   Sadly all we had was Zombie Fifield... when we should have had a more Xeno DNA Fifield.   We could have done with seeing like a Neomorph Mouth Burster from Milburn and also seen one of the Hammerpedes get killed and reveal it had Tiny Eggs like the Xenomorphs.

More Time should have been spent on the Mural/Fresco with some Dialect to drop more clues... and some Dialect should have been mentioned as well as a Close Up Shot of the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods.

These are all things i was putting into my Re-write of Prometheus i abandoned years ago.

@Michelle Johnston ... I still find it funny that a dead character is the most talked about even after one year from the movies release.

@ignorantGuy

Ha ha. I am something of an obsessive hobbyist where I have to "put right" errors of judgement, its a kind of grieving process and a coming to terms with artistic failure. I watched Prometheus several weeks ago and it simply made me thing Covenant is the wrong version of what happened. In terms of narrative momentum character development the follow through made no sense. Alien 3 Assembly Cut which focuses on the same protagonist, her relationship with Clemens and the fact that she is the "Alien" in the prison has that crucial character development and she feels the loss of Newt in a very real way whereas Davids view of Shaw is a lot of half arsed contradictory nonsense that only makes sense if he is a mad robot, hardly the stuff you can focus a movie on or leave Prometheus followers with their answers. Shaw's death after so much investment was the equivalent of Ripley's death en route not Newt or Hicks. 

@Michelle Johnston " Shaw's death after so much investment was the equivalent of Ripley's death en route not Newt or Hicks." I think it is worse, as Shaw was experimented upon ("raped") for got knows how much, probably still alive. So the comparrison would have been more accurate that Hicks raped and killed Ripley between movies and went on a killing spree on the inmates.

I think the whole Dr Shaw Experiments Plot... was something that maybe would have been the eventual path for her... NO ONE should have a Happy Ending in the Franchise... and so there was Potential here to explore the Hopes she had, and see them just transpire into HELL as she finds out the TRUTH is far from what she had envisioned and worse than even her worst Nightmare.

Questions could be asked about WHERE could the Sequel had gone instead..... But how much of a Movie can you devote to a Dynamic between Dr Shaw and David during the journey to Paradise... and then the Big Question is what happened when they arrived.

Ridley Scott informs us that THEY was off to the Planet of the Engineers.  The reveal would have been that the beings they DISCOVER are not Gods, and they are not BENEVOLENT and so this sets us up to ask HOW LONG can a Dr Shaw and David Survive when Faced with a Race who are not Benevolent towards us.

The set up of the Sequel would have also been to Discover Dr Shaws Questions...

WHY was we created... WHY then was we intended to be Destroyed

WHY did they visit us and invest in us, only to THEN create a Place to Create a Horrific Weapon to Eradicate us.

WHO Created the Engineers... as Dr Shaw could not accept the Engineers as being our Creators and that there has to be more above them as HER God would not Harm Humanity.

So the Set Up was there to explore these things and reveal to Dr Shaw that her Faith is SO WRONG and that these Engineers or their Agenda could be something very Wicked....   Can you imagine the Impact this would have on Dr Shaw?

The Set Up was also about exploring the Engineers more, their History and Purpose, maybe WHY and WHAT purpose had LV-223 been for, Ridley Scott hinting our Engineers are not the Top of the Ladder of Creation and that he DID-NOT wish to meet GOD in the First Movie.

The other thing was indeed the Philisophical Themes at Play, Creation, Sub-Creation, Rebelion, Punishment and Hubris and it would have been likely these would have continued and that indeed DAVID would have been a part of this ARC and its likely the David wishing to Create for himself Plot would have been something Followed anyway.

We have to Remember another BIG Plot Reveal was that David was BRINGING HELL with him, and what happens if the Goo infects GOD or a MACHINE so at some point it was likely we would see David unleash the Black Goo on Engineers and Witness the Results.

But complaints about Prometheus, and what appeared to be disappointment with the Characters and Engineers with only DAVID standing out from the Crowd.... and Fans Wanting Literal Xenomorph Answers and the Answers to the Space Jockey and more Xenomorphs had led to FOX to figure that  any would be Plot may be something that would not appeal to Fans and so they would concentrate on David and showcasing a Literal Xenomorph Origins.

I think a lot of the Back Bone for Alien Covenant would have been similar in the Original Prometheus 2 ideas... But deciding to give us the Xenomorph Origins in context of a Literal Event that Proceeded Prometheus had meant for many of the Changes that gave us Alien Covenant.... 

Where some of the Stuff that could have happened, has been brushed under the Carpet, and given us a AFTER-MATH kind of Movie.

It would be interesting to see what Ideas/Plans were in Place before the U-Turn Literal Prequel route Penned by Harper and Logan

@ BigDave

There was huge potential in Shaw and David travelling to Paradise. Look no further than K's & Joi's (with her multiple projections) journey through the brilliant realised Earth of 2049.

It would have been like K's journey for truth the source of the Engineers power. A movie rich in the symbolism of Prometheus LV 223 but on the homeworld where Shaw and David discover the cult of an Engineered creation where the Engineers have rebelled against the Anounki who return in the third act would have been huge. Built on big enigmatic questions but delivered by the incredibly complex and layered relationship of Shaw/David. 

This after all is science fiction we could have had mediated Engineer projections building on the Orrery scene showing us the history of how Paradise was lost and both David and Shaw caught in their creation needs.

Whether the popcorn munchers who want cracking bones and blood everywhere would have turned up who knows. The trick like "Discovery" is to make something where people say "I am not really an Alien fan but I really enjoyed this". 

BigDave I said once, but I'll repeat myself. The only movies with movies within the franchise which does not have a happy ending is Cubed and Covenant. Yes you could argue that Ripley ultimately dies but Weaver asked for it (but money was good and she did one more after it) and her death that has a meaning. While in Covenant, Shaw's death was horrible and meaningless, being killed for being kind (?) and Rapace was not even asked for her opinion. No one asked for a happy-ending. And should I be worried about Daniels? well I don't because none of them are important.

Not answearing jack s**t was a big cope out and I find Fasser's performances to be aping too much things from the past (Peter O'Toole in Prom and Holm and Hopkins in Covenant) to be that impressive.

And sorry but if Green (Lantern) and Paglen (the Transcendental One) were involved with that I'd rather not know anything about it. What did they do to recommend them?

"While in Covenant, Shaw's death was horrible and meaningless,"

I would say there is a lot that went on and into this death, a whole process of what lead up to it...  That Alien Covenant just brushed aside and gave us a After-Math of what ever happened... with just a few clues to what may have happened....  I think a number of people would have liked to have seen how David and Dr Shaw got from the Crossing to the point where things went Wrong for Her... and then leading to what happened with Her.

Instead we are just left with her Body, and Clues that paint us a picture, i guess pretty much how Prometheus painted a picture to a degree regarding the past on LV-223.

In Alien Covenant Dr Shaw became a Prop that was used as a Plot Device and indeed,  there is a whole Story behind how we arrived at the point Dr Shaw took her last breath....   One that its a Shame we never got to explore in a Novel.

So it was a bit of a Wasted Potential but maybe a Necessity with the Plot Change where they have to Shoe-horn in Humans Arriving via a Colony Ship and taking a detour to Planet 4....     A movie that would have covered some of what happened via Flash Backs and a Movie that would have gave more time with the Xenomorph would have required a extra hour worth of Screen Time.

I dont think we will EVER know what exactly happened on Planet 4 after those Engineers were all nearly killed off with Davids Bombardment.   We have the Virals and Comments by David to allow us to try and figure out what happened.  But this can only allow us to attempt nothing more than a few theories.

So the LV-223 Murals and Dead Engineers, and Dr Shaw are maybe now our NEW Mystery as we get Spoon Fed the Space Jockey Questions.

BigDave I think that a have a pretty clear picture of what happened there and is still pretty much meaningless. And did/do we really need another human ship arrives and gets infected movie? And then, who are the people who die to be "Spoon Fed the Space Jockey Questions"? 

@ignorantGuy

Paglan/Green worked on Prometheus Pandemonium and Scott was not happy with what they came up with and went on to do the Martian instead. Both of them bombed with their movies at the time. However Green wrote BR2049.

John Logan was the one that wrote the retread A L I E N screenplay with an incoming bunch of guys who all get killed. You correctly recognise that is flogging a dead horse (or is that Ox) whereas the internet is jammed with people who say the crew are dumb and should be more careful and prepared. They are no dumber than A or A's its just everyone KNOWS whats coming the audience is in front of the protagonists whereas the threat was novel in 1978 and 1986. Thats another way of saying "the beast is cooked'. oh thats right Ridley said that in 2014.   

@Michelle Johnston Green re-wrote only the screenplay, the story was Fancher's (I personally did not like as Rachael's fate was to close to Shaw's, but there also other stuff not worth mentioning here). Why did Scott not bring Peoples back, the guy wrote 12 Monkeys (ok, inspired by a French short) and Unforgiven? The only thing I liked from Green was American Gods (whose story was by the great Neil Gaiman). So what does Fox and Scott see in him?

Don't start me on Logan, I hate his James Bond movies and his cliche ridden historical movies. And in all honesty I can see the sadism towards his character coming from Penny Dreadful. He also said that sci-fi is a minor genre didn't he? Well @-hole, theater and movies are minor writing in comparison to novels.

The modern audiences are a jaded bunch. Alex Garland's Annihilation was shred to pieces, however it was the most interesting sci-fi movies in the last couple of years. Ok it was bit to familiar to Tarkovski's Stalker in places but almost nobody would sit through that nowadays.

And you know how people excuse how in Alien those seven were space redneck truckers so there behavior is very believable. But sorry Fox themselves made up bios for them and almost all had higher education and Kane was high achiever? And why are the grunts that memorable in Aliens? They have one-liners but that was the norm of the 80s, but almost all were rather stupid.

And I would say the whole Alien formula is dead not just the beast.

@ignorantGuy

John Logan - Where I relate to his work is in the cliches of peoples behaviour based on long standing issues. It exorcises in me at 63 my own life experience where I see 80 year olds still pursuing the same tired issues they did when they were 20. Very few people change and many hold on to issues ... forever. That said I agree with Christopher he did not get a chance to do Blofeld justice. Blofeld on screen was always much better in the shadows. Max Von Sydow apparently did some incredible work in the Connery third re boot but it was axed. 

The irony is Logan had a character whose mother died early and lives with that bereavement through faith, who is baron, who gives birth to a cancer like embryo and who survives the appalling treatment of Weylands deception not to mention the sci fi elements and no one can see how you could play that into a whole movie where her co lead is in a child like state of admiration and love who poisoned her partner. I mean the potential is HUGE to put a tight co dependent relationship inside the question of creation and what happens when we die. The Engineers could have also shown what happens if we had been given the keys and were trusted with them.  

But you are right their are gamers and fanzines but the audience "out there" are not interested in an ALIEN movie.

I liked Annihilation it had me thinking until the end. The only unfortunate thing is this pre occupation with dark endings it was right in this case but on the back of all the others felt over familiar.  

But in all honesty, how could have Christopher Waltz done justice to the Blofeld character, being the fifth actor who portrays him in a Bond movie and there is the whole Austin Powers who mocks the character. Isn't the whole character a big trope in itself, how can it even be taken seriously.