Alien: Exodus

BigDave Did you consider that Shaw just lost Holloway just very recently and know that David was responsible, and thus not wanting sex with him? Isn't that a stronger reason to reject him than he is a robot? She was on her quest to find answers and that was more important than making sex or having children. What I think that you are doing is justifying the actions of a rapist, which are not justifiable.

Certainly i was not trying to suggest David has to be attached by a tether to the Main-Frame or what ever would Store his AI Soul and you would think he would try and come up with some Safeguards because he may be aware of the Error of his Forebarers Ways.   And so a ideal situation for him is to NOT have his AI Uploaded to something LIVE by that he only has his Soul Backed up to some kind or Removable or Inactive Storage Medium, that is only activated when required so the Main-Frame or whatever is used to Upload and Download his AI Soul.  I think if we look at this route and what you propose about if we consider that David only Uploads to ONE David at a time and when his Body Suffers Damage, or he acquires a more Advanced Body then he can Upload his Soul to this.

There are a few Problems to maybe look into however.

1) Is David the only one with Access and Control over the Process (so no one else or the Main Frame cant just Upload Multiple David Souls to Bodies).  This would be a Good Protocol to have but it has flaws.

*What happens if David is Badly Damaged so that he can-not give any commands to activate the Process to Upload his Last Known Soul to a New Body?  By that i mean he is involved in a Event that would render his body in a instant into tiny pieces or even less.

*A fix could be that David has to keep in contact with the Main Frame or whatever and if there is a Period of Time where he has not Contact.  The Machine/Process Automatically assumes the Worse has happened and Proceeds to Create/Download a New David.

This may not sound so bad... but its how FAR can David Communicate and Stray away from where he Stores his AI Soul Back Ups and the Device/Process that Uploads/Downloads it?  We could face a Scenario were he is assumed Missing in Action/Dead but then he is captured someplace where he cant communicate with the Main Frame so to speak... So when he does escape he discovers that the Process to Recreate him has taken place and we now have TWO Davids.... which David gets Terminated and would this David be willing to do so?

2) Does the Main-Frame or Network or what ever had the ability to do this Process without any authorization by David and if this is the case, then does this AI Main-Frame simply Follow Orders to David?    WHAT if it gets HACKED... (the same could apply to even if David is the only one who can control the System that Uploads/Downloads his Soul).

3) Does he have servants, followers be they Humans, or Synthetics who when News of Davids Destruction of if he is Seriously Damaged, what if these can Activate the Process, this is not a problem if they recover Davids Body and his Head is still Functional... But if he uses 3rd Party Persons/Machines to be able to go to the Main-Frame/Processing place and Activate the Process when they Discover David is Dead/Missing (Destroyed best word to use instead of Dead).   What Prevents these from Activating the Process and Creating/Downloading New Davids while David is still out there?

I like to think NO Matter what Protocols are in Place that Hubris will come into play, and there is the Potential for Things to go wrong...  this fits so well with the Themes the Prequels were attempted to cover..

Regarding that Picture... YEP! One of Davids Earlier Face Huggers, you dont get to see it as clear in the Movie, but the Face Hugger Scene with his Later Design is still just as Gross, but it happens fast so many wont notice the details lol

@ignorantGuy

Certainly, i think even regardless if she knew/did not about it was David who was responsible for Holloway (likely she did) but it appeared Forgotten a bit in the Crossing. 

  There are a number of reasons she could reject him, for One its not like she is going to want to jump into bed with the next Humanoid that offers, be it David, a Well Endowed Engineer or another Human.... it would take a while before she is ready to even consider any sexual relationship, never-mind with David.  She had much more on her mind and things to attend to than just to find a Sexual Partner.

I think next to look at is in life for various reasons which does not have to be because someone is a Robot, but you have a Friendship where One Friend starts to feel more than Platonic Love for their Friend, but the other Friend is simply not interesting under No Circumstance... and sometimes when this happens the rejected person can take it bad and that Love Turns to Hate and Bitterness (i have seen this happen to people i know).

I can understand why she would not just be like Ok David lets have a Relationship...  But this was something that one of Logans Early Drafts and his Draft for The Crossing had covered.   This shows Dr Shaw was not as Kind to David and left his Head Floating out in Space, but then Changed her Mind, had many Intimate Encounters with him (how that works out) and SHE was the one who was Smitten with David.

I am sure as HELL Glad they never went with this plan.

"What I think that you are doing is justifying the actions of a rapist, which are not justifiable"

Certainly not at all....  i on one hand can understand how it just seems so odd how someone who loves someone so much could then just Mutilate her Body.  But sometimes people can just Twist and go Bonkers Mad...

I am not sure their is Proof he 100% Raped Her as per-say... I do suspect he tried to KISS her once, and this shocked her and scared her and well freaked her out, then he maybe confesses his LOVE and she rejects him.

There is no evidence to clearly say if he had gone up to her decided he wanted SEX and Raped and Killed her then Butchered her Body.  This Scenario cant be ruled out either.

What is for Certain is She Died at some point, and we simply have no idea how and when she died, David could have killed her in a struggle, he could have killed her in a bout of rage and maybe he regretted it after? or he simply had no care at all... and could be completely Psychopathic

Could she had been dying anyway and he offered her a way to get away from dying, maybe he had a idea to Evolve her to Save her but she rejected it?

Once she died, he then saw that maybe in Death he could Create Life, and decided to use her to Produce his Children...   maybe he did this for his own wicked Agenda.. or he genuinely thought it was a tribute to her... to not let her Body go to Waste, and to use it to Create Life because its something she could never naturally had done.

He may have thought he had somewhat good intentions, to himself, but for those outside of his thought process he clearly was not ALL-THERE in the head and a bit Mad.

Its kind of a bit ambiguous as we really dont see what actually transpired, (dont think the Novel gives any more clues as well).

But some could just think David merely wanted to have Planet 4 to himself so that he could then just Rape, Murder and then Violate Dr Shaw because he is a Sicko and Mad.  

Thats down to each persons personal interpretation and opinion.  And a number of people have concluded similar, and i can see how they can come to this conclusion, which is perfectly understandable.

I think his AI could not handle the Emotions, and he went a bit Crazy, and he may have Loved Her, and thought he was doing the best for her... but in reality what he was doing is not the actions of a Perfectly Sane Person or Robot.

David: When you close your eyes... Do you dream of me?

Shaw: I don't dream at all.

David: No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism.

Shaw: You know I can't let you leave this place.

David: No one will ever love you like I do.

[kisses her, then suddenly strikes her fatally]

David: You're such a disappointment to me.

Is it that hard to imagine such a scene between David and Shaw?

For me it seems perfectly plausible and this does not make David a nazi or a rapist. He just eliminates all those standing in his way. As much as a xenomorph does. Like father, like son.

A few worthy points to note.

We were never shown how David was rejected by Shaw. That is we were not ever shown how Shaw shunned David in any sequence did we? On the other hand, instead, we were constantly shown time and time again how David admired Shaw - he liked her. He studied her dreams with the neuro-link when she was in stasis - ( he was basically reading her mind. Push this idea one stage further and you get your machine to transfer mental state of a human being ). He liked her sense of humor - he was flirting with her and he knew she liked his sense of humor( recall "that is why they call it a thesis, Dr. Holloway" and how Shaw was inadvertently put a smile ). I do not think these small sequences were planned so that to show us that Shaw had affection towards David, although she was not totally against him, unlike say, Charlie who straight disregarded David a possibility of being something noble, in fact he was taking him as nothing more but a glorified type-setting machine. But, unquestionably, what was deliberate by the film-makers is that we where shown explicitly how David was probing Shaw more and more - he was getting infatuated on all levels by Shaw. He got to admire her toughness. Recall his remark - "I thought you didn't have it in you", just after she did the emergency c-section removal of the trilobite, which was actually an admiration of the fact that she managed to get rid of the alien organism and have strength to carry on her quest for her irrelevant answers( and questions - just recall that we were shown by that time that her makers where 100% humans in make up, and mortal - ie, they where nowhere near the biblical gods she believed them to be - she carried a christian cross ). So, he saved Shaw(and Holloway) which was certainly not programmed in him(in fact he couldn't risk his life for her, because his allegiance was to the mission, to the true mission - help Weyland on his journey to immortality). Nevertheless, David(a god) risked his life to save Shaw - when she was returning from the juggernaut head-statue complex. Ie, David did something which completely overruled his programming - this is a sign he had it in him, and by that I mean free will(and emotions. Can you imagine the implications that it is emotions that allowed David escape his rigid programming? Think about Walter and his "Duty" answer. Whereas David thought Walter loved Daniels and hence sacrificed his hand for her. Little David knew at the time that Walter was indeed a glorified electric tea pot - a machine, not allowed to create even a simple tune. But hey, at least he had melodies put in him :).  It has to be said, Shaw returned the favor when she put him back together. Shaw, being this unassuming(perhaps you could say she was naive) and innocent never expected David to be so smart and machiavellian. Therefore she never registered that her unintentional, fair and non-discriminative treatment of David could lead to David to build up such an affection towards her. The question then rises - is she complicit? You can say to the point yes - she should have known better. She was not a farmer's daughter, she was some sort of researcher, which means that she was definitely not stupid - and therefore she should have been prepared for the worst, ie she should be skeptcial enough to be a scientist. It is the essence of the scientific process - to rule out all the skeptical theories you have. But that is the pickle, the conflict of her character - she is unassuming, naive and a pure, which conflicts with being this skeptical, world weary person. Here is the example that perhaps accentuates what I am talking about : it takes to be con to know a con. And this is not in her nature - so she had no choice but to seduce David(unknowingly). Which is crazy, and he did go crazy for her. He was risking his life for a girl of a species he has forsaken as hopeless and worthless in the first minute of his life when he was shown all the human vices by his maker.


All of the above suggests that there was something in the script put deliberately there which would show us how Shaw and David were getting closer and more intimate with each other. And with the revelations(to me at least) from BigDave that they were supposed to be sexual partners tells me that this is not a false reading by me but rather toned down story which still shined through the seams even sans the intimate scenes between David and Shaw cut out from the script.


So, it is no wonder David loved her. Despite her being in the shell of a human body. He knew her like the back of his hand - we were shown that he knew her most intimate dreams. Which is a bizarre situation, because she never gave consent to David to go through such interrogation, but Shaw never took this against David. Which rather shows that Shaw was very, very open minded - this tells me, rather suggests that she wouldn't object David at some point in future, especially if circumstances are stacked just right. Just recall that when push came to shove, when everyone from the Prometheus team was dead on LV-223 except her and decapitated David, she still put him back together - she knew full well at that moment that David is not innocent robot. That he had something to do with death of Charlie, with her getting pregnant with that awful starfish. But she still trusted him. And we know that David appreciated such trust, especially coming from Shaw, obviously, the single person in the universe he had feelings to. So, I can certainly imagine how she could have agreed to be his partner in future if circumstances again presented themselves. Just think about : David knows her. It would only take for David allow her to inspect him and his thoughts - if he comes clean through this, shall we call it "interrogation" ( the better phrase would be if she gets to known him better ), Shaw would just give in. And why not?

Cool

"Is it that hard to imagine such a scene between David and Shaw?"

Not beyond the realms of possibility, like i had said some-point in this Topic sometimes Rejection can turn Love to Hate, i have seen this happen a few times in Real Life.  Where it becomes more Bitterness and Jealousy, which can result in extreme cases to a "if i cant have her then No One Shall" kind of a Reaction.  Which i think may have been what happened with David.

Trying to get a bit back to Topic i will mention that it maybe CANT be ruled out that David could be able to Modify those Human Embryos, it depends on what Technology is on the Covenant... we have to ask what was the Original Plan for those Embryos?

This was to have them develop into Humans at some point and so they have to have a Process to be able to Grow those Embryos, would they have been Grown in some Artificial Womb/incubator?

We also have to wonder what Genetic Engineering Knowledge David had gained over the years on Planet 4 and remember the limited tools he had, yet he accomplished so much and its likely the Black Goo provided to be a Good Tool for Genetic Modification, if it is a Form of Radical AI then if David can unlock its secrets then he could maybe use it to Splice Traits/Genomes of any Organism he wishes and Evolve any Traits/Genomes he wishes.

Another thing to consider with his Experiments are that maybe the use of the Black Goo allowed for Accelerated Growth of Organisms and Fetus, this fits with how Rabid we saw the Hammerpedes and Trilobite in Prometheus.

If we look at examples of Genetic Engineering in a number of Sci-Fi movies, we do see that Genetically Modified Humans and/or Clones do appear to be Grown to a Certain/Required age within a Short Space of Time, this includes the Replicants from Blade Runner and also the Clones in The 6th Day Movies.

So if David can unlock a way to alter the Growth Rate of a Human Embryo then he could in effect Grow those Embryos at a faster rate than a Natural Gestation and Growth would require.   IF we consider this with maybe Genetic Manipulating to Evolve those Embryos into Superior Humanoids then i think MAYBE this could indeed be part of the Plot for the Sequel to Alien Awakening.  If say David could Evolve those Humans and Grow them to the age of Children then by the time he incoming Parties arrive he would have a Colony of Superior Humanoid Children that are FED what ever History, Origin and Religion that David wishes...   i pondered this as a Option a while back....  But since RS announced his Raised by Wolves TV Series... i could not help but think is he taking over Plot Elements from the Canned Alien Prequel and using them in his Sci-Fi Series?

Hence the Reason for this Topic.

I can expand upon that last post and bring back the Dr Shaw Equation....

When talking about some of the works that David had done and those that featured Dr Shaw (Dane Hallet and Matt Hatton) had pondered if these were either just Wild Imagination of David (My take on it) , or if he Resurrected Her over and over (not a fan) or if he Cloned her.

We maybe cant 100% Rule-out the Cloning of her, but here is something interesting to Ponder, if David has some of her DNA, this could be strands of Hair, then it would open up a Plot where its not beyond the Realms of Possibility for David to CLONE Dr Shaw maybe on the Covenant Ship.

He could MOLD Dr Shaw anyway he wishes... HOWEVER, this may be a loss on him, if he only Fell for Dr Shaw because of her Personality/Soul and a Clone would not have her Memories, Emotions and Upbringing that Molded her into the Person she was....  I also think it would be a bit Sketchy to introduce a way that he had obtained her Soul.  Maybe this could be accomplished to a small degree, if he has stored in his AI all the Dreams he had been watching of Dr Shaw, during the 2 years she was in Cryo-sleep on the Prometheus.  

When i was working on my Prometheus 2 i was to cover how it was such Technologies like that Dream Visor that played a part in Weylands Ambition to be able to Capture our Memories, Dreams and Emotions... and then come up with a way to Transfer these into a AI Program... this was Project Rook.

When Ridley Scott said the next movie was to be about AI, people would automatically think its a Movie about David and he alone (he is the AI)  But exploring AI could also include.

*Genetic Modification of Humanoids (especially Human Embryos or even Egg Cells).

*Transferring of a AI Soul into another AI Body or Computer.

*Transferring of a AI Soul into a Organic Body

*Transferring a Humanoids Soul into a AI and then into another Body.

OR.....

*Activation, Building of Multiple Synthetic Androids

*Infiltration/Hacking and Control of other Synthetics and Computer Systems.

But when combined with how RS had implied that Replicants are AI, this to me means he would be exploring something similar and not going to give us a Terminator/I-Robot Multiple Army of Robots Plot.

Wow, Huge scope BigDave! Great ideas.

Just to add:

David is an android(duh!) I don't think he 'sees' like humans.

His is a digital world...bits/bytes/quantum qbits stuff...infra red/electromagnetic radiation...This is how I imagine his optics work.

Probably sees Shaw as electromagnetic data.

Also, Is he recording what he 'sees'? Does he have access to his past? 

Would be nice to view the world from his eyes.     I think this would snap the viewers out of this Pinocchio David view.

David is android. BUT! He synthetic, not cybernetic. He was grown, not construct. David is a life form, but on synthetic base instead organic. Yes, he has chip with data base, but his senses like humans.

Androids from Alien Universe =/= androids/robots from another movies, books, ect.

So you are saying he has eyesight like humans? 32k resolution maybe...zoom lens? You would think they are trying to improve on human eyesight.

It would still be interesting to see how he interprets visual data. Like the Xenomorph POV from Alien:Covenant

It would be cool to have a manual on synthetics! Like some Star Trek tech book.

"Also, Is he recording what he 'sees'? Does he have access to his past?"

Who knows how much Data Storage David has, i will assume that he has acquired about 80 Years of Date/Memories and Experiences by the time Alien Covenants Events end.   When we had Prometheus and the Viral Marketing for that Movie, with the David 1-8 Models i had always assumed that Each Prototype would see the Memories/Experiences from Each Prototype passed onto the Latest Prototype, so David 1 has his memories transferred to David 2 Prototype and so forth. Alien Covenant changed things a little (Hence removal of the Weyland Industries Viral Site)  But i would like to assume that Each Upgrade would seen Weyland want Davids Soul uploaded to the next Model.

As far as how he sees, i think we can assume he can see pretty similar to how we can, BUT i also think and it was hinted at and indeed covered in the drafts.  That Davids Eyes had other abilities, he had a Macro-Vission which meant he could Zoom In on objects, and he also could see in different Spectrum's and See thing things the Naked Human Eye could not.

I certainly would like to eventually see a In-Depth Manual/Tech Book, they could have ONE for the Various Ships, ONE for the Synthetics and Weyland-Yutani Technology and a updated One about the Xenomorph and other Morphs/Black Goo and maybe detailing Davids Experiments.  And Finally the Engineers.

Eventually that is... i know we had the Weyland-Yutani Report but i hope for a more improved comprehensive one some day, not saying those who made that have not done well, but at that time we had not COMPLETED our Prequel Series and so Once this (IF it ever) gets done, then we can get some FINISHED Project Books...  I would also think S.D. Perry should maybe be given the task to do this, as Once we have everything Told in the Prequels... they would be able to give more than they could while the Prequels were a very much ever changing work in Progress.

I also know we got the David Art-work book but this was more a Art Reference book, than a detailed Journal of what David had been up to.

MonsterZero

I know what I say from AC: Origins book. It's a great fantastic. Yeah, about his eyes no words, but we know what androids is a life form and they can eat and have hair growth and other organic senses. We can conclude that he sees like humans. Maybe better (humans eyes not perfect eyes on earth, btw even not close). In any case, not 1 and 0.

"The Empire Magazine Special has Reignited theories into what the Sequel had in mind... which has lead to Speculation that it will be set on LV-426.  I believe this is INCORRECT.

If we look at some of the Comments that Ridley Scott has made regarding the Sequel and Artificial Intelligence and Xenomorph we see that he seems to think the Xenomorph has nearly run its course and you have to come up with something NEW, he also had said the Next Movie would be about Artificial Intelligence and he had asked us "what kind of a World would David build?""

I agree. A lot of what was collected together in the past week was old news and assumptions as far as what I read. 

David told Oram he was frustrated due to a lack of a key ingredient, Mother. Once Mother arrived, David had both the gained knowledge of the pathogen and those to use it on.

I assume, based on the end of Alien: Covenant and Scott's previous comments, that we would see the connection in-between the xenomorph encountered on Planet 4 and the patient/lurking biomechanical xenomorph from LV-426.

I think the Comment to Oram is once again one of those Ambiguous things we have in the Prequels where it could be interpreted as other things and could even mean multiple things.

1) Mother as in MUTHUR the ships computer? i think this depends on WHEN the Company had such a thing as MUTHUR computers, i have to check if it was referred to as such in Prometheus.   If we go for this route, then it would indicated the Company Knows where David was and sent the Covenant to near Planet 4 and set up the Neutrino Burst or that David had set this Trap.

I think eventually we could be led to Davids AI being in Control of the Companies Computers, but i am not sure he had any such Control until the END of Alien Covenant.. but then we can ask WHY the Computer Recognized Davids own Log In and Command.

2) Mother as in INCUBATION (Gestation) for his Xenomorph...  this one i think is for certain, because we can take from that Scene that David has those Eggs there for who knows how long, but can assume Planet 4 has NO more Hosts.... so those Eggs were waiting for a Mother to Incubate and Give Birth to his Xenomorph.

I think eventually indeed we would have see a Evolution of the Xenomorph, RS had said we are NOT QUITE there yet.   I have a feeling either towards the END of the Sequel or in Alien Covenant Part 3 is where we would see the Xenomorphs Evolution to get to what we had in ALIEN

From his comments it seemed like those who are expecting more about the Xenomorph in the NEXT installment will FEEL as Short Changed as those who after Prometheus were expecting to see more about Dr Shaw and the Engineers.

BD

I answer some ideas from your response to BioDegradable too if that is OK, I think that it is interesting. Apologies if what I did here was wrong.

Agreed that human bodies rot so to speak and the AI does not do the same thing, that is kind of interesting but they should put that in another franchise. You ask where the Engineers got their technology from, maybe they stole it from those that created them? One alternative is that they were handed it and misused it like the humans run pout of control.

“I do think we can see that David may feel he is more Worthy of this Knowledge and Technology and it would be interesting to see to what END he could use it.”

This is something that I agree with 50%, he might agree that he is more worthy of it (he is a narcissist) but I do not care to see more about what he would do with it. There are already two David movies although less so in Prometheus.

“I think RS is trying to show us Creation and to ask what determines Creation, what makes a Life-Form”

I agree but that is not why I watch the alien movies. It could work but then we need more focus on the humans and the monsters. Right now it does not work so the movies suffer from that.

“what is a SOUL?”

That is interesting, I have read philosophy about it, maybe a lot is to exaggerate but I have read some. It is a question that is interesting but it is not something that I look for in an alien movie. When we look at Weyland and David I can see that is a question that Scott is interested in and I am too, I just don’t think that it is very alien.

“.... but with a AI who has such Memories and Emotions that can be Stored in a AI Program and Computer, and thus this SOUL can be uploaded then in effect the AI has a Eternal Soul so to speak."

I understand that but I do not think that it will go that far. Again this is not what I am looking fir in an alien movie but give me something else about it and I might be interested.

All these questions are interesting but it takes away a lot of what I am looking for in an alien movie, namely well-done human characters that are facing situations that they are not prepared for. In this case they are fighting both the creatures(s) and the company that is just in it for profit (which I think is more interesting in this universe).

“which most would consider to be about Xenomorphs, but i feel the Xenomorph is more cooked than the AI aspect.”

I think that both the Xeno (at least the classic one) and the robot thing is over-done. I would prefer to see more about the Engineers and the SJ and more about the human journey or what ever to call it.

“I think they need to use the AI and Xenomorph as not the Main Focus but allow them to be used to draw some connection and context to Creation and Humans and Engineers and other layers of Creation.”

At least that sounds better than Scott’s obsession with David which to me is messing things up. To me both the humans and the Engineers are far more interesting than the David story. It is just to bad that Alien Covenant abandoned the Engineers.

“One VERY Valid Point you raise often Thoughts_Dreams is Human Characters and IF we explore a route like in OT, then its a case of could Fans Connect to a New Version of Humans that are Engineered or would they be seen only as Robots?”

Hmm, that is interesting. To me it would depend on how they are written and if we can sympathize with them. Human characters can be interesting but still be assholes but you need sympathetic human characters at least some when the main thing is a fascist android. This is not something that is impossible (a new kind of humans, we have had the Cro-magnons, and so on). Who knows what the next stage in human evolution will be? Hopefully something smarter, rational, and compassionate.

In science they use mice in tests so maybe the Engineers or who ever with the technology and knowledge does this with humans too? You can imagine a lot of interesting stories that they could have about this but it should be clear that it is attached to the alien universe otherwise it will be like Prometheus where people go “huh?”.  

Maybe you could show that the Engineers are heavily involved with this and to show how they are connected to the Xeno to show their role as genetic gardeners or how ever they are described. When we look at them like that we could see that they are both involved in evolving (word-play obviously) both the Xeno and humanity. So they are in it to erase the old humanity with a version that they think will be better so hopefully they have learned their lesson that time but we will see about that. To me the Alien franchise has always been about the human journey so that could be a continuation of that. There should be some dangers facing those also (possibly made by the Engineers) otherwise there would be no tension.

“it all depends on the story and how characters are developed.”  - Biodegradable

I agree, Prometheus and Alien Covenant should be an example of this because of how they failed with that. The stories might be alright but the characters lack

“I agree i think the Engineers Plot could have potentially ran very deep, and interesting and if its not ALIEN enough then you can simply introduce another Run on the Ladder, and explore something different that is above the Engineers.”

I think that is dependent on how clear that they are about that the Engineers made the original or found something and evolved it. If you write them as interesting and intimidating (dangerous) then I think that it could be alright, it is just too bad that they did not make sense of them in Prometheus.

“What Conflicts have they been involved with in the Universe, are all the Engineers on the Same Page?”

It depends, it could be different factions that are at war with each-other.

I do not mind philosophical scenes, hell Matrix is a sort of philosophy class and I liked the discussion at least partially between Walter and David although it was too long or at least to slow.

“Does he eventually Kill Off the Adults and maybe some of the 2000 Colonist are Children, and he then settles them down on the Surface.  His Subjects.”

Maybe he tries to see that there are different kinds and those that he dislike he kills off. It depends on how black and white his kind of thinking is.

“maybe we could have some kind of Wooden Theme World with Ritual/Religious way of life like Monks... “

This could be interesting, like the wooden planet by Vincent Ward, at least a bit.

Daniels, either develop her personality (a lot!) as a character or kill her off. Right now she has no personality so I am not really interested in what happens to her. Perhaps she could have a cameo but that is bigger than how Shaw ended up otherwise it would feel like they would repeat themselves.

“I think we will explore a lot of Philosophy about Religion, Creation, Punishment etc etc”

Maybe it could work, it worked in Alien 3 (religion and philosophy).

“.... does he warn those Colonist these Humans are Evil and get them to side with him?”

He mostly cares about himself and the androids so he would do what ever to survive, not sure what that would be. Nah, kill that fucker

“David Controlling the AI of the Weyland-Yutani Systems including any incoming Synthetics... but i cant rule this out as being a part of it.”

That is to give him too much of a role, I do not like it. Sure he can indeed play a certain part of it, I am not against that but I do not want it to be all about or mostly focused on David.

I would really like to see more of the Engineers.

Leto:

Wouldn’t that depend on what we call superior? What kind of traits that are desirable? Like he could be superior when it comes to X but not to Y?

Yes he made mistakes, and that was interesting. He has a big ego but big egos can lead to downfalls. This could possibly be how David ends up.

“Maybe Enginners come to Origae-6, but all of them are destroyed by xenomorphs...”

Possibly, but I would like the Engineers to take down David before that is done. Give him what he deserves

Maybe there are already eggs there that David did not create so that hints that he just developed his own version. I really dislike David as the original creator of the Xeno so hopefully something can be done about that.

“will be piloting this ship on Earth or/with stop at LV-223 for restocking black goo and modification of xenomorphs, but pilot be infested and ship crash on LV-426.”

This is a part that I am not sure if I understand, will that mean that David is the pilot in the chair (1979) or not? I do not mind if the Engineers might take David’s things and try to develop it so either a Engineer or a life-form above the Engineers is the SJ but I refuse to have David as it.

@BigDave

"1) Mother as in MUTHUR the ships computer?"

That's my favorite version. Yes, at first sight we think about incubator. But Ridley never spoke explicitly, and there was always a second bottom in the prequels. I think what the Covenant was go so close to Planet 4 not by chance. And "Covenant" could mean a contract between David and WY. I don't think what WY controlled David.

And this give me interesting thoughts. What if the Derelict from Alien flies to Earth not for destruction the human race. But as "order" for WY from David. This explains why WY wants to get Alien. But not explain why Derelict sends a "danger" signal.

"You ask where the Engineers got their technology from, maybe they stole it from those that created them? One alternative is that they were handed it and misused it like the humans run pout of control."

I have pondered such a thing a number of times, Certainly that could FIT with our Engineers, as in either Stole the Technology/Black Goo, or they were allowed to use it as instructed by their Hierarchy/Creators but they chose to use it as NOT intended.

"I agree but that is not why I watch the alien movies. It could work but then we need more focus on the humans and the monsters. Right now it does not work so the movies suffer from that."

Well i can fully agree with this and other things you had said in your post Thoughts_Dreams

Myself i find the Plot Interesting, but it indeed seems to loop back more to Mankind/David where the Engineers should be the bigger Focus,  the Themes and Ideas RS has are interesting but as you have RIGHTFULLY stated!

YOU dont watch a ALIEN Movie for this... and i have to assume a Larger % will side with the same kind of outlook, and what i mean is HOWEVER interesting some things are, they are not quite so Fitting to ALIEN, they seem to be getting sidetracked to what MOST would see about ALIEN and how a Prequel should be which would be about the Xenomorph a little.... but mainly about that Technology that belonged to the Space Jockey and his Race. And then look into WHY they do what they do and against WHO.

And to be honest, the Themes at Play are things that have been done before....   Especially when we look at Battlestar Galactica be it the Original 70's/80s or the Re-Imagination Series... the Original has those Prometheus Themes (Reptilian Alien Race, Create Robots who Rebel) were you can replace Reptilian Cylons with Engineers or Humans, and Replace the Centurion Warriors with Humans or David. 

The Newer Series, we see a combination of similar things to what Bladerunner was about, and also Prometheus, and indeed similar to what some of the things in this Topic Discus...  Upload Human Soul into a AI, and then AI Rebelling and AI then Creating Organic AI.

So these things have been done before.....

While they could be interesting in context to the Franchise, i feel for MOST it appears to be a Distraction and Sidetrack from what SHOULD be covered more and more so.. WHAT would get more Fans to be interested.

Lucifer, The Light Bearer

"Knowledge and Freewill play Key Roles, for the Bible it shows us that the Fall of Lucifer was because he was created Perfect and had been given more Free-will and Knowledge and he is just like David, where as other Angels were more like Walter"

I think you nailed that component BigDave.

I believe the David character was modeled after Lucifer in many ways. He is a liar when considering his fake plastic mouth. David is also an attempt at perfection by a mortal, Peter Weyland. So, every synthetic cell showcased as perfect is a lie. Then add in the synthetic psychopathic butcher aspects David displayed and I believe I make a point.

Pandemonium

In support of this point, I believe that Planet 4 was a great representation of Pandemonium from Paradise Lost. 

I think its interesting to ponder how it connects to Paradise Lost as it appeared this was referenced quite a bit in regards to the sequel to Prometheus, but HOW Literal, and how much had carried over to Alien Covenant is unknown.

If Planet 4 was Paradise then maybe we could look at it in Context to the Biblical Account and Paradise Lost, where Paradise is where the Garden of Eden is located and is a Place where the Creation of Mankind occurred and place that is Secluded/Walled Compound, watched over by Guardian Cherubim Angels. 

I think Planet 4 and its City do fit that BILL, a Secluded Place on the Whole Planet, Protected, and those Engineers look more Human, we come from them and this means maybe this place is the Origin of our Kind.

Satan/Lucifer and his Fallen Angels were Forbidden from Paradise and Heaven and Banished to HELL and to dwell the Earth. 

Pandemonium is the City that Lucifer/Satan has created so that they can Reign in Hell, because they refused to Serve in Heaven. 

Maybe what was ONCE Paradise (Planet 4) had become Pandemonium (this was alleged to have been Prometheus 2 Title as far as a Source i had from Feb 2015 claimed).

Maybe LV-223 could be looked at as Pandemonium too?

I think it is something interesting to PONDER....

I am drawn to seeing David Set-Up a Colony on Origae-6 and Preside Over, where he may even have set up his own kind of Rules/Religion and have Monuments to himself upon it.  These were certainly things i was covering in my Alien: Ascension idea (Alien: Covenant sequel)

Fangirl Side

"Ridley Scott is simply the best there is in the sci-fi genre," said Sarah Aubrey, executive vp original programming for TNT. "Besides directing some of the most important sci-fi films of all-time, Ridley has created iconic characters from Alien’s Ripley to Prometheus’ Elizabeth Shaw. We're thrilled to have Ridley do the same for us. It's incredibly rare to be able to make television that both challenges one's intellect and also thrills the excited fangirl side — Raised by Wolves is that rare show that does both." (source)

Are the androids in Raised by Wolves women in appearance?

I will post the PM i sent you Ingeniero as a kind of Summary to the OT

I dont think we will see any W-Y connection as it wont be a Licensed Series based on ALIEN.

But as my Topic was looking at, the next movie was to NOT be about Xenomorphs but to be about AI, and RS had indicated in a related Interview that Replicants were AI which means that RS is thinking of AI as more than Robots... and that a AI can be Flesh and Blood.

Also looking at "what kind of a world would David build" this seems interesting to me, we see David did appear to have respect for Dr Shaw compared to other humans who he felt has not treated him well, which makes me come to the comments about how he said "your very kind of heart" to Dr Shaw.  Then maybe we can look at Davids reply to Daniels when she asked "what kind of a world can we build"  he replies "if we are kind to it, then it can be a kind world"

Next we look at the AURORA - Nature Boy Song

This Fits David very well....

Then we spoke of many things
Fools and kings  (Weyland and Engineers)

Then he said to me:
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is to love and be loved in return"

We see how he felt about Dr Shaw due to how she treated him, compared to his dislike for those who Mistreat him.

Then when we look at the Themes of Prometheus, which is Creation, Knowledge, Free Will and Hubris.  We see from the Weyland Prologue inc Ted Talk, and the Ozymandias Poem that what makes someone God-like is Creation, when we DIE we are remembered by our Deeds, or Creation be that Offspring, or Art or Monuments and Achievements... but eventually all of these Disappear.

If we look at the overall Bigger Picture then we ask... WHAT makes Mankind Wicked Beings, what makes us a Race that GOD would want to Destroy....

Knowledge and Free-will.... Potentially David could become very Dangerous to Mankind.... a Walter lacks the Free-will and Knowledge and he would not Rebel and become Sentient to his own WHIM.

If Adam and Eve never ate from the Forbidden Fruit, they would have been more like a Walter instead of David.   It was the Free-will Perfection that Lucifer had, that lead him to NOT see why his kind should serve GOD.

Noah was Saved from the Flood as GOD deemed him a Good Honest, Clean and Sinless Man... who would Follow Gods Ways....   Moses was given the 10 Commandments as he was deemed the same.

Every Child is Born Sin Free... its their Knowledge Given and Upbringing that Shapes what they become..

The Prequels touch on Perfection Evolution and Pursuit of such things...

If we look at those Colonist, they have their own Free-will, they are Sentient, we dont know if they are Religious or Not.... or if they are KIND or potentially could be Selfish and Wicked..  You could TRY and change the way a Person Can think and behave, but people can be Corrupted, or some are already so and cant change.

A New-Born, or Young Child or anyone who has there Memory Wiped, could be Brought Up with what every Knowledge is passed on and Influenced and Shaped by those who Teach/Raise Them.

For David  such persons could be Manipulated to Behave and See him for however he wishes, even have them see him as their Creator/God.   For the Engineers, if they Deem Mankind cant be Saved.... IF they had taken say a few Hundred Infants they can Raise them to Follow the Engineers Ways/Rules as a Fresh Start... not Corrupted by how Mankind had become.  The same would apply for  a GOD who has seen his Creation become Unruly...... to Save some Children a GOD could MOLD them to follow his ways... this is similar to Noah's Story as GOD deemed him as Pure and Obedient.

If we then go back to the Creation and Perfection Themes..... then for David.... if he raised those Embryos he could have them Follow what ever Rules/Religion and become the KIND of People that David would deem Worthy.   But if we look at the Pursuit of Perfection and Creation, and seeing that David has taken part in Genetic Engineering, then he could Manipulate/Evolve those Embryos to create more Perfect Humans.

Raising them he can Manipulate his Creations to behave and follow what ever Rules/Behavior that David expects.

By Virtue of David Engineering/Perfecting those Embryos which include a increased Growth Rate (which we see often in movies/TV shows that deal with Clones and Genetically Modified Humans) what David would be doing is NOT too far off what TYRELL had in Blade Runner.... thus Davids Engineered Human Embryos would be  ARTIFICIALLY CREATED LIFE-FORM.... a AI.

I do wonder if these kinds of things are CLOSE to what RS may have planned for Alien Covenants Sequel?  They certainly are things i was planning for my sequel (Alien Ascension)

But NO SOON as we have AC2 on Hold and not looking like anything is happening and THEN we have RS Reveal his Raised by Wolves TV Show and that Synopsis... i see in it elements of the above AC2 Plot i pondered.... and i do wonder if this was quite close to what we would have seen?

"I'm always searching for new frontiers in the sci-fi genre and have found a true original in Raised by Wolves — a wholly distinct and imaginative world, full of characters struggling with existential questions: What makes us human? What constitutes a family? And what if we could start over again and erase the mess we’ve made of our planet? Would we survive? Would we do better? Given TNT's impressive run of bold, quality programming, this feels like exactly the right home for this kind of ambitious television,"

Looking into RS comment above.... the Synopsis in Part is similar to the Covenants Mission.  Only the Covenant never Managed to complete its Mission... but the Sequel would have maybe shown what may happen WHEN David is NOW in control of that Mission.

Regarding the Females... i certainly think we could see a Female Android... in Raised by Wolves... i wonder if the other would be Male?

My Alien Ascension introduced a Female Walter (slightly newer  Synthetic Construct) a Female who David like how Lucifer had done with EVE... a Female he could Manipulate to see his Vision, and Join him..... something he tried with Walter but could not TEMPT him.

She becomes a Love Interest for David... but Ultimately this does-not end well (had few ways to explore it, that i was not quite sure how) but it Ultimately ends with his Love Interest.... becoming the Queen to his Wolves.. and HOW the Xenomorph gains its Bio-Mechanical Appearance.

I do WONDER.... if the AC Sequel could have introduced a Female Synthetic that arrives as part of one of the incoming parties...  or would the Covenant Ship have other Synthetics?

Regarding Raised by Wolves, i would be inclined to assume the Androids would be a Male and Female... but its a case of wait and see i guess.

David already had a bit of experience of human missions when the Covenant got to planet 4 - in the end he lost his wrist.(granted, he gained something as well from the Covenant)

David got his xenomorph children, the wolves. He might go ahead and make "sheep" ones - human based children, whom he gifts immortality. He will do as he pleases.

And just to recap, at this point he has an effective bio-weapon, but also, an unpredictable and potentially non-cooperative violent species with chips on both of their shoulders digging for resurrection.

So, would it not make sense for David to somehow deal/diffuse the danger factor coming from the mortal species? Can he make use of his children? Can they rebel? What would engineers think of David's creations anyway if they see them? What would humans think of their cousins? Imagine if he uses Daniels to mother his first evolved bio-child. Won't she have a conflict wrt to the organism she gives birth to?

Those are interesting Questions...

I think that Genetic Engineering is plausible, if we look at it from Davids Perspective, IF he could create a Human that is Superior to Humans and Engineers, then he would have achieved Greater than his Creator and his Creators Creator too.  IF David can Engineer those Embryos so that they become more Immortal then he would have Unlocked the Secrets that Weyland had came to seek out his Makers for (LV-223).  

This fits very well with the Themes/Philosophy that we saw in Prometheus/Alien Covenant and so when i ASSUME the potential is there for some kind of Plot like this in the Sequel, i am not sure it could be ruled out... 

How would Humanity View such Evolved Humans. They could maybe see them as a THREAT, how would these Super Humans View Humanity?  This depends on what they know and are shown by David.

If you could take some Infants and Raise them on another World or Island you can teach them anything... you could say the MOON is made of Cheese and WHO are they to Question it?   So what ever David wishes to Teach them he can, i think this is a Theme that runs with the Prequels and Paradise Lost...  Knowledge is EVERYTHING

If we look at that Synopsis for Raised by Wolves we can see what a difficult task it is to raise different people who have different views and Religions, as INDEED... if you could Start Again on a NEW World and have ONE Religion, then it would be a ideal way to Control, and Maintain Peace.  (Differences in Culture and Religion/Belief does/can lead to Conflicts).

A interesting thing is when you take some Children and Manipulate what ever Knowledge and Truth to them.... the BIG QUESTION.. is what happens when they DISCOVER the Truth?  So in Davids Example.... they discover that all that DAVID has taught is Lies?  This surely would lead to a Rebellion....  Regarding Raised by Wolves, what happens when the Children who may then have different views on Religion to each other Discover their Faiths are False?

How would the Engineers view David's Enhanced Humans, they could be interested and intrigued in what David has accomplished and interested in David himself... but they could also see them as a THREAT

If the Engineers are the Planet 4 ones, then they could maybe see what David is doing as Echoing what they had done years ago (maybe Genetically Engineer/Evolve those Prometheus Engineers).  And at what COST that may have been, so they could see History Repeat itself with what David is doing (assuming he will try and Engineer his own Humans).

If the Returning Engineers are the Prometheus Ones, and indeed they were a Engineered/Evolved Experiment/Creation by the Planet 4 Engineers or a Faction of those Engineers who had Engineered themselves this way, they could maybe see History Repeat and know what THREAT that could be... because they was that Threat to the Planet 4 Engineers themselves.

These i feel are all the kinds of Interesting Ideas that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, but INDEED these are proving to be a Side-track and Distraction from ALIEN but we have to remember, the Intention at the time of PROMETHEUS was to make a New Franchise that Steers Away from ALIEN. So i dont think RS was 100% happy with the direction Alien Covenant had taken.

Regarding Daniels... maybe she could be used for Davids Genetic Experiments he could use her Reproductive Cells to Engineer Humanoids, he could also use them to Produce Xenomorph Eggs.

Katherine Waterston did say that a while back she had heard some interesting Rumors as far as where they could take her Character.... now i think for her to hear Rumors is more likely she had heard some of the ideas they was pondering with her Character.... but she then said of she could END UP in a Body Bag... i feel that comment is a Acknowledgement that during Period Between Movies that Plans can Change.   Such as the Fate of Dr Shaw... i would have said at the Time of Prometheus and say the 6-12 months after Release, that Dr Shaws Plans would not have been to merely appear as a Corpse.

"i feel that comment is a Acknowledgement that during Period Between Movies that Plans can Change.   Such as the Fate of Dr Shaw... i would have said at the Time of Prometheus and say the 6-12 months after Release, that Dr Shaws Plans would not have been to merely appear as a Corpse."

That is most likely spot on BigDave. I'm still clinging to hope to see when Dr. Shaw says no to David but I know that's not likely.

It is nice to see Ridley Scott able to explore the concepts he spoke about before...even if it isn't in film nor based in Alien. Ridley Scott said he had around 37 hours of film from shooting Alien: Covenant...so who knows what that includes.

it is interesting BigDave, to talk about imposing a faith on your children in the context of the movie.

It, religion, makes sense if you are mortal though. If you are eternal, the question of who made you and (who made that maker) makes little sense - you have infinite time to figure out how to make living things on your own. However, you might be supplemented by a legend that there is life after death so that you are perhaps pacified this way and lead on a wrong path if you are mortal. In both cases though the goal is the same : eternal life. One reaches it by virtue of not dying, the other way is a eternal life after death. So it makes sense to question which way is better. Of two ways only one has benefit of serializing them, that is trying out both ways : suppose you are immortal - you can always decide for yourself the other way - life after death.

So, if David grants his children some sort of immortality(by regen, or just making them that much durable in the first place) then he doesn't need to give them a "legend"(in time, inescapably, they will figure out for themselves if what they were told is true or not). On the other hand, he will have to indoctrinate his children one way or the other if he doesn't make them immortal - otherwise he will not be able to contain the quest for immortality, unless he bans technology(Promethean fire).

I think this movie has numerous intriguing possibilities, if one rejects the "march towards inevitable". The question is how will the money paying individuals decide.

"unless he bans technology(Promethean fire)."

This is a interesting point to raise, one i pondered about including in my ideas for a AC Sequel....  So its not beyond the realms of possibility if David does say raise Engineered Human Embryo's that he could have this Colony/Culture set up on a Part of the Planet were they Build their World with Simple Means, so that they would be living with Technology that was not available say a 1000 years ago.

A LITERAL Building of Cabins on a Lake and with some Religious/Cultist Element brought in then it could be like using some of the WOODEN World but instead of a Like Wooden Death Star....  have this to literally show a Colony that has Shunned Technology in favor of more simple Life.

We kind of get the idea the Planet 4 Engineers may have taken this route themselves...  

I wonder where David would have PARKED the Covenant, and surely at times he would go back and forth to where it was, it would be a Question of HOW and WHAT happens if those Colonist he Raised Discovered it?

I guess it would depend on WHAT David had told about the Covenant, its Mission and HOW those Colonist got there.. Off Course this means regarding Raising of Children or Engineered Embryos.... and not the Covenants Adult Occupants as they would be aware of all of this.

Could David had used the Technology to a Certain Point to Build his  Colony/Outpost and then SHUNNED and Abandoned the Technology?  There is so many ways to have explored what David does and what kind of a World would be Built.

Well, those engineers that visited earth way back when certainly had the technology. But they never shared it with humans - humans are not shown roaring the galaxy in alien tech ships.

So will David share some of his knowledge(even better if goes on building an advanced civilization) or he will make it stone-age, celibacy style society.

It would be funny though if engineers arrive at the planet to find out David replicate planet 4, except for humans instead of engineers in those robes.

I think thats the Interesting Question...

From the Engineers Perspective, they obviously kept us at only CERTAIN Level of Technological Advancement, not even to the LEVEL of the Planet 4 Engineers. (Not including the Juggernauts and Hanger).  It would be interesting to see WHY those Planet 4 Engineers do-not use the Technology, apart from Catering for Returning Engineer Ships.  Is this a Technology they are only Permitted to use for limited reasons as deemed by the HIERARCHY above the Engineers?  Or did they Shun Technology apart from where required (to visit other Worlds).   

So that would be like a Amish Community having a Few Wagons (Automobiles)  they only use AS/WHEN they venture away from their Community to bring in Supplies they Need that they dont GROW/HARVEST themselves?

I think the Engineers had a concern and Fear of what happens if Mankind was to be granted a Equal Footing to them Technologically and its SAFE to assume once they abandoned us, they thought we would never ADVANCE without their help....  They was WRONG.

I think David would have learned such things during his years spent after the Doomed Prometheus Mission, and so its a interesting Question of HOW MUCH Technology he would allow his Colonist to Possess.

What kind of a Culture David Builds could be Interesting, especially if he Creates a Civilization that go about as the Engineers intended for Mankind.

How would a Race of Would Be Gods... view David Creating Perfection compared to their Efforts (Deacon, Mankind) and what would the FACT that David can maintain Order and Worship when the Engineers so dearly Failed!

Do they gain a Respect for David?  Or do they become Bitter and Jealous of his PARADISE?

Abandonment.

Just so we do not misrepresent the 2012 Vision of the Engineers relationship with Mankind.

The Engineers continued to visit Earth right up until they were destroyed. Indeed one tablet suggests they came after but that may have been the result of embedded transmitted lore given they would not have offered their location after they were destroyed.

When Charlie speculated that they abandoned us on the night before his death he was unaware that they were intent on destroying us 2,000 years ago. That revelation would come mid afternoon the next day.

In philosophical terms they abandoned mankind because they decided for reasons, which Damon thinks are made in clear in the movie, to replace us with their own sub created species.

They never left us be they came taught implanted memories and then decided we needed to be replaced 2,000 years ago.

Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us, they simply wanted to replace us and the specific reason for having that view and their relationship to mankind is in the movie.     

Michelle J:

Nah, I don’t think that it is clear why they decided to abandon us. Lindelof (if that is his opinion on it) is wrong, there is no clear explanation to why they wanted to abandon us. One problem is that the movie is too vague about some things and that is one of them. My guess is that it could be because we started wars and treated the planet in a bad way even though that is not what the writers had as an explanation but I take it as bad writing and/or execution of it.

@Thoughts_Dreams

For the record it is completely clear to Damon Lindelof executive producer and writer and Ridley Scott director and Michelle Johnston viewer but not you and you are not alone. No worries.

What is left unclear is why they had that kind of relationship with their creations. Elizabeth understood the nature of the relationship but did not understand why they would have that view and whereas David believed it did not matter Elizabeth did primarily because it contradicted her faith view of creation. Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie.

In a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. They mean something, a tent pole audience is very bad at picking up those cues wanting "tell us what your going to tell us, tell us and tell us what you told us." a standard technique employed in presentational learning.

I will not provide the answer because it is something which I may or not have concluded applies to Prometheus Regained which several more people will shortly read. 

The movie(P & A:C) is very vague and is rather open ended which is why we still have talking points about the movie in 2018.

This also makes it rather silly for one to lay claim to know how it will all go down canonically in future with any certainty(should it ever even have one). Just raise hands how many of you predicted the faith of Shaw in A:C after having watched the P(and the salivating add-on sequence of A:C, the "crossing")? It sure took me by surprise, to say the least.

I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge(and is supposedly implied by/and including seemingly implicit events in the movie) especially when one is interpreting subtleties and over analyzing some of the sequences or dialogs in the movies : while the dialogs themselves are explicit, their interpretations are not as definitive and plain. For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that? People might figure as follows: it can't be a coincidence that those picturesque views are mere chance events - they must be views of the same place in the movie. Indeed, they might be, but only for cost saving reasons - doing a CGI is actually costly (more so than shooting real things btw), so they might have reused some of the footage of P in AC, but without trying to make it seem as if Weyland had knowledge of what happened thousands of years ago and for that reason chose that view to have in his white room. So some might surmise that it was deliberately put so into the story, others might think otherwise. Another example : remember that deacon mural/carving at the back of the head in P? A lot of people surmised lots of things from that thing. But then it was told that the prop guys decided just to stick it there because they thought it was cool with no purpose as far as story telling goes.

So it is not all that quite plain when you are taking some things for certain. And it is even more questionable when you lay your own foundation for your story upon those already shaky assumptions.

Also, remember, that Ridley can change his mind, sometimes right in the middle of the movie. Or rather he can be swayed : just recall his annoyance at the suggestion that ALIEN fans wanted more of the beast on screen and his subsequent apparent frustration at this change when he said - "you wanted the alien, I will give you the f*cking alien". I love Ridley :) This bit rather suggested that he hadn't planned to have that alien in the movie but he caved. So it was changed, if not at the stage of principal photography but certainly somewhere between the pick-ups and the editing - ie, in the midst of producing the movie.

Phew...all this just to say that is not as linear and simple and definitive as it might look initially.

However, having the benefit of hindsight, this should be easy : lets take a rather coarse look and point out the underlying motives of the movie and its characters.

From the original P in the AC we only have one character continuing his own inquiry(if you can call it that) - David. All others are dead, because their major themes have been explored, done and dusted as far as movie makers are concerned.

*Weyland - dead, ultimate quest of Peter was immortality.

*Vickers - she is second rate, supporting character to Peter Weyland, which was only used to show us how ruthless and determined Peter was wrt to his quest of immortality. In fact he considered David to be closer to being his child(who is immortal) than his own biological daughter(who is mortal) - this again reinforces what Weyland wanted. Her role was to show us how Peter didn't want to die and become history. In fact her role was to cement precisely that : Peter wanted immortality above all else, so much so that she never got her head around what her father actually wanted - it was a surprise to her when her father rejected her plea( King has his reign and then he ... ).

*Shaw - is a jolly character that we were supposed to get behind. After all she was this plain Jane, with the traditional religious upbringing going on about her innocent research(the target audience people are targeted right here by her character) quest for discovery of her "noble" engineers and test if there is intelligent conception and what are they like. She had her mother and then father taken by quite unfortunate set of events. Plus she can't conceive and her friend is forsaken in a disturbing way. All this made her our main anchor point.

We soon learned that she was expecting more nobility from her makers than what she got. She died along with Charlie, who was another anchor(the non-religious, skeptical scientist) who was also rather secondary, a stepping stone. Charlie was all for adventure and ultimately he got what he wanted - he would give everything and anything(he didn't value his life like Weyland did - recall how easily he took off his helmet without any regard for his own safety) - so the dealer gave him a fair trial by science! - the goo was going to either evolve him (it did!) or kill him.

Btw, just a concurrent thought: what do you think would Weyland choose given a chance : either die of old age like he was going to anyway, or take the goo having the benefit of knowledge of what it did to Holloway?

Now, David, Shaw and Charlie had a sort of a love triangle going on which was supposed to give us more info on how David operated, on human level - it was supposed to show his affection, if he had any towards humans. He emphatically did - that is, for him humanity is not all bad - some(one) of them he even loved(in his own way).

With a shock, Shaw's story was ended abruptly. I suppose it is so because her story ended and movie makers were on a tight budget - her quest was to find out if there was an intelligent conception behind it all. But the inevitable and intriguing iterative question of Shaw(and us) of who created the makers of the makers is proven to be pointless to pursue by the movie makers(of course, this quest would completely derail all the ALIEN/Prometheus themes - nobody would care about the beast, Weyland, David and any of that any more) we get rather unpalatable resolution on one of the main characters.

Of course, instead we get Daniels and Tee as substitutes. I don't want to bother with other characters in A:C - they were there solely as canon fodder. Except for one point : again the movie makers take the piss out of the traditional religious followers in the sense that if you believe in providence, boy, you don't know where you are getting into. This is a second character of faith in P and AC that we are shown to be harrowed by the events in the movie and this can't be a coincidence now, can it? And the message is this : your traditional faith is not a good guide for galaxy exploration, you can have it if you like it but don't rely on it too much to bring you a happy outcome. If anything you better think that reality is much more cruel than what your dogmatic book tells you.

So in the end the algebra/balance is as follows : we only got David left from the original movie. Other characters are dead and expended and it is safe to say their quests are also explored.

But the quest of David is very very open. He was shown to appreciate some humans and not very fond of human vices.

He has potent technology at his disposal. He might instill a dogmatic view on his followers(religion!). Supposedly we also have other parties coming on : engineers with apparently revenge theme to explore(war is always a shrewd choice for money making it seems). We have a ship full of technology, humans and embryos in hibernation. It makes sense to consider and explore the topics of evolution of organic life and synthetic life, in different directions of singularity, ie: transhuman life: human soul in the body of bio/synthetic shell, AI having organic body and bio-chemical experiences - love, fathering an offspring(creation), genetic engineering and evolving humans.

These are hardly novel topics on their own, but do not be quick to discard the idea of exploration of these topics in the world of ALIEN universe. Hollywood already showed us that these artificial+organic characters in the past that have a lasting, passionate(money paying) following. Think of certain Anakin Skywalker - Darth Vader, he was half robotic at some point wasn't he? Think Alex Murphy the Robocop. Recall the Robocop vs ED209 action. One is half human the other is completely metal. Think (Cain) - ugh, what a nightmare was that. The point is this : people can get behind a good character, no matter if he was a human or not originally. I hope FOX are reading this: David still can turn out to be a good guy(read he can still make money) - he can redeem himself, if that is your thing: imagine if he is the fellow who stops engineers trying to carry out their original plan(wipe out earthlings) at the cost of his life. The story can progress in many unpredictable ways - in fact it is safe to assume that we again have a blank sheet of paper only with a certain and fixed beginning and uncertain, unfixed end. Btw, the end only needs to leave a clue as to who ends up as the big guy - that is to say, the fact that there is this notion of march towards to inevitable doesn't mean we can't get quite an intriguing, *open ended* movie.

In any case, the very fact that we are still having all these topics here shows that there is potential there. Alas, Ridley doesn't have a metal body.

@BioDegradable

I will not be responding to your post. I would appreciate it if you would not make any further remarks about my work. By offering Damon and Ridley's clearly stated view on why the Engineers wished to redact mankind in AD Zero might imply that is the view I have taken, I may or may not. My view is very simple its my view nothing more nothing less.

Many Thanks.

My original point was a simple one there was no period of abandonment merely abandonment by wanting to rescind.

Michelle Johnston

"if you would not make any further remarks about my work."

Are you not taking all this a bit too seriously - one, and two - please, remind us(me) since when does this board has some rules regarding "your work"? What is it that you claim to be your work anyway? In the context of this very thread(or board)? Quote the thing that upset you, where I supposedly made remarks about your work or even discussed your work. I hereby state that I am not interested in your works whatsoever. Never read it before and therefore never cared. Btw, do you consider your posts here as your work?

Your view is your view and nothing more, as is the view of Thoughts_Dreams just above or my own, indeed.

I just can't see how your passive aggressive call out is justified really.

PS: In fact, I would appreciate it whole lot more if you posted a critique, a logical argument, relevant and poignant enough wrt to the topic discussed.

"I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge"

@BioDegradable

Certainly that is a big point, the Movies are a bit vague and open to interpretations and NO matter what Plan/Objective they had, things can CHANGE as they go along...   The Portrayal of the Engineers after we had Alien Covenant is different to a degree to what those Engineers were at the time of Alien Engineers, which changed somewhat by the Time Lindeloff came and re-worked the Plot.    We need only WONDER how many changes are made by the time Paglen, Green, Harper and Logan had made, certainly the Starting Point A (Paglen) to End Point Z (Logan) would have had a number of Plot Changes. 

I find it unlikely that at Point A which would have been somewhat a continuation of ideas Lindeloff and Ridley Scott had discussed.. would have led us to a Dr Shaw with so little Screen Time and a Xenomorph Created by David.. but this just shows how much things change.

We can all try and are entitled to our own oppinions and trying to figure out this and that, and have our own ideas of where it could or should have gone... but they are all a bit MOOT as far as what we eventually get which always comes down to what those who PAY $$$$ to Produce the Movies think is BEST.... hence the RS comment "they want $^$&%* Aliens i will give them £!$"%^£^ Aliens"

"For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that?"

Another fine example of how people can read into something thats not intended to mean anything too deep.. I believe the Scene, is just as with the Nativity Painting  its to connect to us that the Scene is about Davids Creation, the Nativity Painting is to show us that David just as Jesus is not a Traditional Human, he is different, Enhanced and Special.  The Backdrop that matches the Prometheus Sacrificial Scene is there to make a Connection, that this is about a CREATION Event.  Its Symbolic nothing more, nothing less... well IMO.... but it had lead some to speculate that Weyland must have been to Planet 4 or know exactly were we was Created From....

The Mural is another one.. in Prometheus.. it was not there to merely be COOL... it was there to in part be a Tribute to Giger, a Easter Egg and in part to contain some link so we can make a connection that the Xenomorph, and Engineers Experiments are connected.   It was vague, and many elements where never meant to have any deep connection, the Face Huggers/Engineers merely a Easter Egg, the Mural itself to bring some vague Xenomorph/Deacon connection that adds some Visual WOW to a Set... so yes to LOOK COOL.

Yet it has been a Topic of Hot Debate over the years... yet it merely could be a Red Herring... Ultimately it allows for many interpretations on how the Engineers, Xenomorph, Black Goo and Deacon are connected.   But regardless of how we all interpret these connections and the Mural, the Question has to be was there any real DEEP Reason for it and that seems to be NOT REALLY.

" Indeed one tablet suggests they came after"

Certainly Michelle, we never really get any explanation  to WHY we had later Star Maps after the Engineers Mission 2000 years ago went to POT.... it does allow us to think they must have came back... but WHY... this really is something maybe those working on the Project had any real explanation for..   So its open for Interpretation, and when i consider it i wonder if they ACTUALLY never Left?  I consider the Jesus Emissary Angle  IF this is a misinterpretation by Mankind... much as maybe Dr Shaws Faith is, and in Reality Jesus was a Emissary then could it be possible the Engineers sent Emissaries to other Continents, and maybe this is where the later Star Maps came from after the Engineers Abandoned us.

"They never left us be"

Indeed in a continuation of the previous reply... i think the Engineers had not abandoned us, as you said, they had intended to use the Black Goo on us... well those on LV-223 at very least...    The Interesting Question becomes after this FAILED... WHY had they not come back to Finish the Job?

We have to look at the Engineers on Planet 4 for that and ASK... did they know about our Creation and intended Destruction?  was those LV-223 Engineers creating us without the knowledge of those on Planet 4 (who are the Original Engineers). its all pretty open to debate.  We can maybe assume all the Engineers on LV-223 Died apart from that SURVIVOR...  So they did-not abandon us, they wanted to WIPE the Slate Clean... likely..

But the Big Question is where are the other Engineers and did they all share the same Idea/Intention for Mankind?  IF so then its likely after the Failed Attempt... those other Engineers Abandoned us and decided to leave us to ROT.. we are only ONE of maybe Many Worlds they seed Life and so they could leave us to Destroy ourselves and in their HUBRIS they would think we could NEVER advance to be a Threat without their HELP.

"Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us"

Certainly we can see there is NO reason to fear us at this stage, the Question is did some of them maybe Fear as we had become Sentient and Unruly and are close to the Engineers, that its the Knowledge/Technology we dont have that makes us NO threat... could they be concerned of what would happen if we GAINED this?  But its maybe likely the Engineers are so Naive and Arrogant that they feel without their Help, we would have just remained as Cave Men and so if they abandon us we cant ever evolve more than were we was at 2000 years ago... to a Great Hubris.

I feel this is one of the MAIN themes at play... Knowledge for if David was like Walter, then there would be no Threat or Xenomorph, if Lucifer was like the Angels there would be no Fall/Rebellion etc.   Ridley Scott said they created the Bio-Weapons (Engineers) as a means to Protect against Unruly Creations  and to Wipe Worlds Clean.

The Revelation about the Planet 4 Engineers being Originals, and RS comments about AI and how he sees the Replicants as a AI, has led me to ponder are those LV-223 Engineers similar to the Replicants... had they rebelled against the Planet 4 Engineers?  so could they have same concerns about their own Creations? 

Its down to what connection are the Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers and which are connected to our Creation that could Answer this... its a case of is this something that would ever get explored or answered? 

"Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie."

That certainly is something i am drawn to, and maybe the revelation of our Creation, is not far from the revelation to come about the LV-223 Engineers and the Original Planet 4 ones, and who created them... and maybe we will see a Constant Pattern, and so the Answers to our Creation could be staring us in the face with David.

"in a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. "

Absolutely i think that the Dialog and what we hear or are told gives more clues to what Visually we are shown.  And some may pay more attention to the Visuals, yet these could be a Red Herring... and certainly a lot has changed Visually by what changes are made and cuts and alternative scenes.

It all comes down to personal Interpretation and the Beauty of Prometheus was it leaves it very open, were we can all have our own interpretations... indeed there was some kind of PLAN to how things may have gone, but we see things are constantly evolving.   The Plot Change to David creates the Xenomorph is a Prime Example.  Something that could be changed in response again to Fans not being HAPPY..

You brought excellent points, BigDave, about it all being a bit haphazard, mish-mash hodge-podge throw it to the wall kind of approach.

On reflection, having watched most of the behind scenes, documentaries, interviews you get to realize that these movies are made by numerous people, in non-linear fashion(with many revisions, sometimes radical) with lots of incompatible ideas thrown in, and it all has to meet lots of hard constraints - after all, it is an exercise in making profits. All of that manifests in a product that has lots of ambiguity(at best) and kinks in unexpected places.

Ultimately, it is the frustration of the viewer's expectation when the movie tells a disconcerted story, where a naive viewer expects a highly coherent, watertight story, something as worked out as a mathematical theory over decades, that rewards inquisitive and diligent mind for his attention ... but in the end gets something full of unpleasing holes. The Q is : "Who is to blame?". I figured out, admittedly a bit late, over time, that it was me filled with unreasonable expectations: it is actually highly naive to expect a sci-fi movie tell an accurate story of human conception(origin story of the universe itself). And knowing at this point the recipe how most movies are made, I can't really blame movie makers either for their choices going for ambiguity. Because it is far cheaper to leave things underspecified, rather than building overly detailed micro-world. This approach is also risk averse : what if your effort doesn't get noticed(rewarded) and yet you put too much in effort & budget and in time into details? You hardly will get a second chance as a director. On a plus side, if you tell a concise story, perhaps underspecified(vague) you can't really run into inconsistencies - the story is too short to contradict itself at some point. With ambiguity(and some silliness), all you risk is causing a bit of confusion for your viewers (and apparently some ramblings about the "work" they can come up with. I was almost literally told "look at my works ye mighty and despair").

All this is supposed to be common knowledge. But it is hard to decide beforehand as to how much you should be raising your expectations with these movies. Ridley is generally excellent director - he picks his movies wisely. And his ALIEN movies have generally been very very good in that respect. Certainly, well done.

Now I should go back and try and figure out why those engineers did what they did :)

I won't - their mystique is as intriguing as nature of Jerry's disrespect of a famous cat Tom. Engineers are intriguing because they are the embodiment of the unknown, our mental projections of what unknown stands for and as such attracts and intrigues us. It is a brilliant trick by movie makers. They exploited the notion of bewilderment that phrase "if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you" induces on a thoughtful person. Bravo. I should perhaps say at this point : don't do it, unless you have unlimited life span :)