For starters: 1. In the alternate opening scene, we are shown multiple engineers, all of whom are robed, some wrinkly- implying age and wisdom and others have amulets implying status. 2. The opening scene engineer is shown to be naked under his robe, but the LV223 engineers seems to have biomechanical skin- suits or infused skin. 3. The Engineer in the opening scene appears to have arrived on a disc shaped craft, but the engineers on LV223 have derelict-U shaped crafts 4. The opening scene engineers seem scientific and the LV223 engineers militaristic. The opening scene engineers seed life with the black goo and the LV223 engineers weaponize the black goo.
The Engineers in the beginning actually seem more religious than scientific to me. Robes, amulets, etc. reeks of religious dogma. ps Not the same goo. The making of clearly shows both "goo's" and how they are made to look that way. It was a completely different substance with completely different effects. (But that's been covered extensively here-so has all of this, really-just google 2 factions of Engineer)
The black goo at the start reacted when it was exposed to air. Where as the goo in the cylinders seemed inactive. I still say the goo in the cylinders is old stock that has simply gone off.....thats what it is all about, bad stock rotation
Nope.. Black Goo in LV-223 was simply sealed in head chamber room for over 2,000 years, the environment was perfect and stable. Once David opened the room and the air from the outside entered, it basically became like curdled milk. David was quick enough to freeze one vase which is why he could experiment with it. The black goo at the start and the one on LV-223 are the same substance, programmed (DNA wise) for different purposes.
Back to the topic.. Certainly different factions of engineers, I agree with Flesh that they had a very religious tone.
in avp the archeologist said only the chosen may enter,the chosen are the ones that drink the black goo in prometheus,they drink the goo by the water fall couse water is a key element,so drink,over falls,dna mutation,200 yards down stream out walks a predator,did you find the predator relief in the head room yet,that says to me that all three species was on lv223 at the same time,engineers,predators,aliens,now humans
cmon people can you really see a predator in a lab coat making all those bad ass gadgets,engineers are huge in stature muscular agile aggressive,predators huge in stature muscular agile aggressive,firfield mutation huge in stature agile aggressive.engineers give gadgets to predators to kill aliens
okey how bout this one,ship at start of movie was for evacuating the whats left of the engineer race from an alien outbreak on their home world,engineer at 'altar'top of waterfall drinks goo,plumets,dna rearranges,200yards down stream out walks a a hard charging alien killer aka predator'yes engineers mutate into predators'in an attemot to save homeworld,meanwhile a u shaped infected cargo ship leaves homeworld for lv223 ship lands thats the outbreak origin,inturn a ship feverishly departs lv223,ooops to late pilot is infected then crash lands on lv426,enter nostromo,crew wakes up by mandate to explore beacon mandate put into place by wayland cor.ran by yes you guessed it vickers
oh no vickers isnt dead,why do you think thru out the movie they kept saying 'theres 2 years of sustainability on that life boat'2 years is how long it takes for the rescue ship to show up,in that time vickers will learn how to speak engineer just like david did,vickers will visit the escape pod the engineer used to escape his crashing ship,thats how he got burns on his face'if you look close at scene where shaw and vickers are running youll see a square burning thing hit the ground thats the escape pod'in the pod she will learn about engineer tech stuff help out rescue party return to earth head wayland cor,and vow vengance on engineers for killing her father.
Flesh - sure all these topics have been covered regarding the Prometheus film but please provide this thread with some of your personal speculation on how 2 factions of engineers is significant to the story of the Paradise script PeterWeyland- You refer to the head room chamber- is this part of the derelict ship. Im a bit confused on the head room chamber versus the ship atmosphere. There is a scene where it appears the "cave is an engineered atmosphere" but later we learn this is no cave but a ship. This leads me to discuss the biosuits which Nuetrino quickly asserted to be for space flight which in my opinion is an assumption and not a fact of the story. This is completely speculative but I think the suits enslave these engineers and automate there every action and they infact have nothing to do with atmosphere, this is further refereneced by the engineers use of helmets, which also seem to be out of place in regards to atmosphere or space flight. Nuetrino- awesome speculations regarding predators, engineers and humans. Vickers is interesting she seems to be a hub of Assumption VS Fact, I believe your speculation is correct Vickers will be part of the sequel just based on star power and the fact that her alive gives the script more life than her dead. What do you think about the suits and the robot-like responses of the awakened Engineer
Neutrino- Im in your camp regarding Vickers, and your observation about a Juggernaut escape pod is really interesting. Im gonna have to give that a look. We part ways on the Predator connection though! For some time I've felt the Juggernaut was near weightless when it came down, given the specifics of that scene. In which case, it may not have pulverized Vickers. Shaw surviving is another clue.
major noob,its always good to have friendly cortex round the camp fire,since shaw is off planet,my second reaction to bio suit was that it lookes pilot to me like a gsuit fighter pilots wear,have you looked for predator face in head room,that face places all 3 species in one place
my first reaction to suit is that it looked aquatic like a scuba divers suit,around neck looks like gills,in life boat scene when jurassic face hugger gets ol blue when his feet are on the wall kinda looks like webed feet?just tossing that one in there,
ellen ,i like your on the fence stance very diplomatic.have you seen the predator face in the head room ?like i said to major noob,the face puts all three species in the same place at the same time?i read an interview with giger he said he got his ideas for his out worldly art about aliens etc...from the insect and microscopic world,to comment on fleshes idea,the queen in ant and bee colonies calls the shots on who will be a worker or a soldiers yadda yadda yadda so if the blues have a monarchy system then its kinda like a faction,when you are chosen to be a soldier or a worker or fly a cargo ship and you have no choice,so now you have a way to turn any individual into what you want by giving them black goo,again if you read my past posts i cling to the notion that water is the key to a good mutation,good water and the rite amount of black goo,you get a good mutation,bad water and to much black goo you get a firfield,again i say that with a queen society dictating you drink your goo and shut up about it thats your function till you die like ant and bee societies,predators are the special forces or seal team of the blue society,and oddly they look aquatic also,there is no way in hell predators are making those bad ass gadgets one of those in a lab is like putting a bull in a china shop,
ellen,the response of blues(i call the engineers blues couse they look blue to me so in future if i say blues its the engineers im talking about)when waking up didnt look outta ordinary since hes been asleep for 2thousand years robotish ,ill take another look,he did seem to be an over achiever got rite to work rite when he got up didnt even hit the sink for a splash to the face or some listerine,bad hygiene,the suit looks aquatic to me that was my first reaction around neck lookds like gills
Lets talk about the Predator face in the head room, I have read multiple articles about Ridley Scott and the AVP film. Most of the articles seem to imply he has never seen it or doesn't consider the events of AVP to be part of the Alien franchise or Prometheus here is an example below, [i]"In a 2002 interview, Scott's concept for a story was "to go back to where the alien creatures were first found and explain how they were created"; this project eventually became Scott's 2012 film Prometheus. On learning that Fox intended to pursue Alien vs. Predator, Cameron believed the film would "kill the validity of the franchise" and ceased work on his story, "To me, that was Frankenstein Meets Werewolf. It was Universal just taking their assets and starting to play them off against each other...Milking it." After viewing Alien vs. Predator, however, Cameron remarked that "it was actually pretty good. Cameron remarked that "it was actually pretty good. I think of the five Alien films, I'd rate it third. I actually liked it. I actually liked it a lot." Conversely, Ridley Scott had no interest in the Alien vs. Predator films. When asked in May 2012 if he had watched them, Scott laughed, "No. I couldn't do that. I couldn't quite take that step.Its clear that Ridley Scott never in a favor of Alien vs. Predator Franchise and that's the reason that his film Prometheus only connected to Aline Franchise only , it doesn't have any connection to Alien vs. Predator films."[/i] With that being said I believe Ridley Scott is full of it!!! Even if the studio forced the Predator head into the film (which could have happened) that isnt the only evidence that the events of the AVP film ties to Prometheus- I'm not even sure the head being there is proof that the events of AVP are tied to Prometheus. What makes me sure you ask? A conversation David has with Shaw after the incineration of Halloway. David tells Shaw "that must have been hard to accept after all what happened to your father, Charles Bishop Weyland who was incinerated in AVP. Neutrino- Food for thought, the blues = engineers on LV223 & the whites = the engineers in the opening scene. The Suits on the blues remind me of the Borg. There is still an inner white with a soul and "free will" somewhere inside the blues. This is referenced in the scene where the blue enters Vicker's chamber and views the video message created by us to make contact, upon viewing the inspiring video the inner white is shown to us by the blue reaching towards the wind chime with curiosity, a momentary lapse of infernal machine automation, which immediately kicks back in an takes over. The intention of this discussion to discuss how will all that we know unfold in the sequel. So how do you think all of this will play out in Paradise??
Nope, I don't think that Ridley Scott wants to tie Prometheus with AVP...however, FOX may have a different view...but then we have Predators and Prometheus, as an attempt to forget AVP and separate these two franchises with different canons. Also I want to mention that the Easter eggs are not sufficient to establish a canon. Only in the movie Predator 2 there is an easter egg dedicated to the xenomorphs, but not enough to form a canon (the merchandising less). Plus, if you think carefully; there is a mismatch between the franchises, because there are no Easter Eggs in the Alien films dedicated to the predator franchise...at most there are a few dedicated to Blade Runner.
[quote]So how do you think all of this will play out in Paradise??[/quote] and the answer is anything and everything, because this could be parallel prequel, spin-off or even a reboot (Star Beast).
Shambhala- The mismatch of Hidden clues/Easter Eggs is because the Predator was created in 1987 and Alien 1979/ Aliens1986 Alien 3 the setting did not allow for a Predator easter egg -Penal Colony Alien 4 aboard a government vessel also was not a suitable setting for a Predator Easter Egg. So my counter point to Easter eggs are not sufficient to establish a canon would be: The lack of Easter eggs(or one-sidedness) is not sufficient to eliminate the possibility of a Predator to connection to Prometheus. I think it is a real possibility that the whites use Predators to fight xenomorph infections, the blues are the result of human beings striving for technology and effeciency........eventually resulting in the infernal machine that is Borg-ing the blues(soul-less like David-Weylands invention). the whites realizing the error of their ways are combating the blues and the xeno's and the black chemical....I also think there is a connection between the Dogmatic practices of the whites and the Ritualistic ways of the Predator.... regardless a Predator twist may be exactly what this franchise needs, much better than some action packed crap where shaw arrives on Paradise and in a nearly impossible script.....
Also there is a long period of time between the Engineers of the beginning and end of the film. You may believe that there are 2 different factions, but that would be like thinking that one person of the 19th century is from a different faction that the person of the 21st century. My point is that we don't know if there are two factions or only is evolution, and if there was a war...Who were the enemies? other Engineers? their creators? simply we don't know...
Only with another director would exist the possibility of see predators in the sequel. I don't know where That notion comes from, but I could bet that Ridley Scott will not include predators in the sequel. I think it's just imagination of fans, nothing more...but like I said, who knows if another director wants.
@Ellen, I'm sorry but I must quote your words :D [quote]regardless a Predator twist may be exactly what this franchise needs, much better than some action packed crap where shaw arrives on Paradise and in a nearly impossible script.....[/quote] For me action packed crap is AVP (especiallyAVPR) and the only thing that this franchise needs is get away from the Queen and the insects cannon fodder for space marines...because much of the essence of Giger was lost. Also, how you can think that predators would be an interesting twist for the sequel? They are hunters and the Engineers are creators and destroyers of life...besides there are many ways to make a deep history...but not necessarily the predators would help, I think it's time for new things. And returning to the easter eggs in Alien 3, well, they could put a magical royal egg in the shuttle and kill Hicks and Newt, so they could do anything. In Alien R, they could have found a way, but most likely is that they were not interested and I guess that something similar happened with Prometheus. At any rate in my humble opinion the predator may be an interesting element...but NOT as in AVP...the issue of versus is just a dog fight...I believe that these Preds can fit in a smart way...I just hate the silly premise of Paul W. S. Anderson, yet I hate even more the idea of the Brothers Strause.
I believe this quote, taken from this[url=http://www.craveonline.com/film/interviews/190017-fundamental-mysteries-damon-lindelof-on-prometheus-and-star-trek-2] Interview with with Damon Lindelof[/url], says it all regarding the presence or lack thereof of a Predator in Prometheus and any sequels: [i]"[...] Look, as to what’s canon and what’s not canon, for me as a screenwriter it’s transcended by Ridley as a director. Here’s the thing. Ridley invented this. He created this Alien universe. He birthed it out of his own heart and soul. So he gets to do whatever it is he wants to do and he wanted to use Weyland as a conduit in the story, and was not interested at all when I said to him, “You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,”[b] he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.[/b]"[/i]
That's right, Ridley created this universe and has full authority to decide what is canon and what not. In fact the idea is preposterous, but if there are still doubts the interview posted by Svanya is sufficient evidence to understand, once and for all, that Ridley Scott wanted to show something different because: Engineers + Xenomorphs + ancient astronauts + Pyramids and Weyland = AVP with a bigger budget. SO, DEFINITELY! THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT AVP IN PROMETHEUS...but sure you can find some stuff from Star Beast there. ;)
ellen well now im glad im not he only one thats seen it,seems like no one wants to discuss that ? is it taboo?why is there a predator face in head room?
its apparent to me that the engineers are cowards,running ,yes engineers are creators not warriors,so in that they would have to creat a warrior class to get things done,science fiction leads to science fact,outside the box thinkers,not a narrow scope only on the visible path.
Neutrino- Taboo depends on who you talk to. The Predator debate has gone on here for some time, and for some, me included, it doesn't fit, its a different style of Sci Fi. You'll find some here who don't care for anything but Alien and Prometheus. I'm in that camp, too. I want dark surrealism and chilling outcomes. I love action, don't get me wrong. With the running scene, I think the idea was to show there was something [i]even the Engineers[/i] were afraid of, but not show the thing itself. The possibilities are endless. This could be among the reasons Ridley cut the axe fight near the end, to have the one visible threat to them be the Eitr and its offspring. Remember, he gets shot I think a couple times aboard the Juggernaut and all it does is irritate him on a really epic scale. These guys are not sissies I assure you. I like to think the Engineers were made to do the heavy lifting for some more terrible race, specifically to deal with the Morb and the Eitr from which it comes.
@Neutrino, it's not Taboo (we even have an [url=http://www.aliensversuspredator.net] AVP site)[/url], I am just posting information I find on the subject and everything I have found says it isn't there. None of the creators have said there is a Predator in the movie either. When and if they do I will be happy to post it. Neutrino and Ellen, what would be really cool is if one of you could post a screenshot of the image you are seeing, so that everyone could see it. Oh, btw Neutrino I agree with you it does look like gills on the Engineer suits, and I also believe those are pressure suits like fighter pilots wear. @Shambhala; Yep the story seems to be based on the original script that was to be used for Alien, written by Dan O'Banon, called StarBeast.
Definitely different factions of engineers. I see the ancients as The Base of their society based with a Cosmic Johnny Appleseed philosophy and the biosuit engineers as technocrats using the goo to advance their agenda. There was no "accident" on LV223. The Ancients knew the biosuits were going to destroy their creation on Earth and did a preemptive strike on the LV223 Engineers. One ship escapes and sets down on LV426 after the crew show signs of infection (like the headless holo engineer) and the warning beacon set for his brethren. The eggs are on the derelict are little dicey to figure out... It really comes down to the source of the lore. Is it Alien? Alien+Aliens? The Franchise? The Franchise plus AVP (please no) ? The eggs were present on the derelict ship and the Nostromo as well (deleted scenes), there was no queen revealed... Hmm I seem to remember there was a sort of stasis field over the eggs in Alien as well, perhaps it was put up by the infected engineers before the chestbusted... damn.. now I am gonna have to watch em' both again...
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