Creators and The Created

I think it is interesting that pigs can have human DNA. To me, it begs an ethical question(s). Is it ethical to harvest them as food? If so, should it only be pigs without our DNA? If not, does it make us cannibals in a twisted way? About rights- biologically these creatures share DNA with us but appear much different- so how do we define what is human? Certainly, pigs have been well documented to be sentient and intelligent creatures WITHOUT human DNA. And WHO decides and HOW? This could have economic ramifications as well from those bringing pigs to market. So do they have rights? What would those rights be?

Lots of questions with no answers but a lot to consider! 

And I am an unapologetic omnivore.

dk

BINGO, exactly the murky waters of ethics and morality I have been delving into with ALIEN: Manticore.Thank-you posting on this topic of mine!!

Things get worse in the story as the 1st Generation of these beings were made 'too good', meaning full intelligence and procreative ability...BUT the 2nd and 3rd Gen were created in a more Limited manner, so as to be more 'useful'.

There you have some NASTY ethical questions, moral ambiguities and it sets the question of exactly how much weight does Humanity as a civilization place on the Rights of Sentient but not Human beings?

I must say that there was never a 'revolt' by these beings, well, they got Lawyers and solved it that way. However, 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gen are all BANNED on Earth, and most colonies will not allow 1st Gens to exit the docks/flight terminals after ship-landings, but those same colonies do possess small numbers of the 'more useful' 2nd and 3rd Gens to handle local wildlife problems and such as well as labour in areas dangerous for Humans. There is an apartheid element involved.

I am a very content Omnivore, unabashed, unapologetic. As for the pigs, the ones used in transgenic hybridization are not food-animals, and I doubt there'll ever be Food-market animals with Human DNA in them, as there's no need and the cost is not justified. BUT the ethics of harvesting them for organs, yes, that IS a sticky one, but is really no more than a side-extension of "is it right to kill and eat them?"

this little tidbit is very powerful for me and ties into my works so splendidly it's almost like a Gift!! If some company is producing something, there'll be others, and there'll be different models and such...Vehicles, as example, here in the real-world...compare Land Rover to Rolls Royce and those to GM who builds Humvees.

Interesting...

Indeed this kind of touches upon the whole Blade Runner Replicants to a large degree.

We could in future Genetically alter our DNA and create beings who are Human clones but have altered Genetics to make them Faster, Stronger, Smarter and indeed the use of these as Super Soldiers is possible.

Maybe indeed limitations could be put into their programing so they can not Act/Think as independent as Humans do but more in line to say what a Walter Android can.

Regardless of how much Science evolves to control or try to control a New Race of Genetically Superior Humans if these beings are created for certain purposes and especially Military Agendas,  then indeed it would be highly likely these beings would see themselves as more Superior to Humans (which indeed they would be) and they would then see themselves as the Next Evolution of our Species and view our current Genetically Flawed Generation as not being worthy of being the Ruling Cast.

And so indeed its logical that they could wish to overthrow us.

BigDave

Ty for posting on my Topic! Glad you're back and I hope you're recuperating/doing well! I understand you were ill, and hope that it's no longer troubling you. I haven't been around here long, but I did miss you, as did others. :)

In building my Chimerans I considered that in this universe they'd be rivals to the Synthetics, as W-Y pursued robotics, another company pursued Biologics. This post of mine above, just added a whole new dimension to the story of Chimerans in the ALIENverse. Tyrell's existence adds solidity to the Chimerans plausibility of existence, and the science/technology in creating them.

Chimerans were made for the Military and Elite Security market sectors and still are. However, Chimerans, unlike Replicants, are quite 'Un-Human', their psychology is substantially different from Human Norm owing to influences from the various Genes that compose their DNA, some of which is derived from Arachnids. I had them step well away from the usual perspective too often seen in sci-fi as their seeing themselves as the next stage of Humanity/superior or have a plan to replace/annihilate Humanity.

They sought Liberation, and fled Earth, being welcomed by only one world. They fought their 'revolution' in the Courts, with Lawyers, and sued Humanity for their freedom. They expertly used Social Media, the Press and public opinion/pressure during election times to fight the 'war'.

Smarter than your average Genetically Engineered lifeform, boo-boo. :) The 2nd and 3rd Gen models are much less intelligent/Independent-thinking-capable than the notorious 1st Gens (who fought and won a Legal War vs Humanity). The 2nd and 3rd Gens are much more limited, you tell them to do something, they say 'Yes, Sir' and they go do it, end of story, very much like a 'Walter'.

Their capabilities are such that they are BANNED on most worlds, meaning they can come in on a ship (as crew or passengers) and so long as they remain within the Port/Docks areas that's fine, but they'll be killed on sight if they try leaving those areas without explicit Government permission or authorization. They are very literally walking-weapons, with built-in weapons as well. They do have body features that make them pretty easy to identify as well, so Humanity is less paranoid about them sneaking onto their planets than they are about Replicants.

The Liberated 1st Gen Chimerans have no desire to overthrow Humanity, and indeed are busy trying to build a culture of their own and build their population so as to be able to properly claim their place in the universe and make a place for themselves in the interstellar economy. The crux of them in the story is that Humanity made something 'too well', cannot kill it off, it's now a fact of life in the universe and Humanity has no choice but to accept their ongoing existence.

You cannot play 'god' and wash your hands of your works.

When you look at it, Humanity has always wanted to play 'god'. Examples in no particular order are:

The Golem of Hebrew/Jewish myth and legend
Alchemy and attempted creation of Homonculus
Frankenstein's Monster
Species
Splice
The Cylons in the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica
The Alienverse and it's infamous Synthetics
Bladerunner and it's Replicants

The big question isn't 'what if they rebel?
The biggest questions is; What about after they rebel?

In my ALIENverse works, the 1st Generation Chimerans did indeed rebel, however the only fatalities were during riots, where Humans killed Humans.
Chimerans didn't fight a war vs Humanity with guns, blades, bombs and such.
They proved to be far smarter, cunning, and capable than their creators envisioned or expected: They fought the war in the Courts.
They used social media, the press, political pressure groups, social-justice organizations. They set off a firestorm across Earth and the colonies throughout those communication and activism organs. They made it impossible for the highest Courts of Humanity not to unanimously affirm and recognize their Liberation and Rights as sentient beings.
The situation regarding Chimerans post-Liberation is one where Humanity has absolutely NO choice but to accept their existence.
They are a fact of life and not about to conveniently vanish. They have settled on a world within the Human sphere of colonization and are engaging in becoming more and more active within the planetary, system and interstellar economies.

Still, many worlds do not accept them, there have been court challenges vs their rights as sentient beings, citing they were manufactured, and calling into question ownership of biological Patents and property rights of biological technologies.

It seems the root of it all is fear of loss of control on humans' part. Interestingly, they give up bits of individual liberties with little issue when convinced it is for their safety. Just a thought.

dk

That IS part of it, yes.
Humanity entrusts more and more aspects and control of it's life to machinery and computers, and in the future possibly to things like the Chimerans...yet expect to always have the Final Say and Control.
BUT, what if the weapons you made say 'No'? And instead of a nice, black-and-white-simple war, they fight it out in the Courts, and win?
Suddenly, Humanity has no Absolute Control over it's creation, which now has equal rights under the law, and thus enforces serious limits on one's/society's liberties with what was once one's/society's property.
Suddenly the Illusion of Control falls apart in a very spectacular way.

Which Humans find VERY irritating. :D

Blackwinter-witch An answer would be to write in safeguards to laws for the future except we cannot foresee every little contingency- so it won't happen. In a way humanity doesn't like the notion of playing god but that is what it has been doing all along. The irony.

FWIW, the Tyrell thing from the Prometheus blu-ray was a joke. Also the Alien universe has a thing called the Alethea Collective which successfully sued for civil rights for AIs in 2306 (though this was overturned in the late 24th century).

dk

The irony you mention, yes exactly! And laws only go so far, they can be challenged, or ignored depending upon various political and financial, security exigencies.
In the real world, many things are going on out of the public eye that are outside the laws, but are done for reasons of national security, enormous financial benefit, or something to do with the snakepit of politics.

With the Chimerans, I wanted to step away from the tropes and cliche` associated with Human-created Life, and examine the deeper involvement after a rebellion as Humanity adjusts to having to accept a new reality that it inflicted upon itself.

S.M

TY for mentioning that, it can be hard for me to determine Canon from Non-Canon at times as I don't have a comprehensive selection of materials to consult, which leads to big gaps in my knowledge.
Well, for right now, the ALIEN: Manticore storyline is entirely within the realm of Fan-Fiction, so there's no problem in it mentioning the Weyland-Tyrell document. :)
And while it might not be Canon, it has the right 'flavour' of the ALIENverse, at least to me, and fits Weyland's personality and character quite well.

Blackwinter-witch That is a great tone- not only a prison of their own making, but they realize too late that it was self made.

dk

Thank-you for the compliment!! :)

Pretty much as now Humanity cannot just do anything that it pleases now. EG; The planet of Shadowfall. It's a gorgeous planet that is at least as rich as Earth was in resources. Prior to the Chimerans being accepted there, plans were afoot for some duplicitous works that would see 'peacekeeping' forces deployed there and eventually the Corporations would be able to stake claims and such.

NOW, there's a population of 20 thousand and some Chimerans on that planet alongside the Human colonists and descendants. The planet's Council wants NO outside corporations doing to Shadowfall as what has happened to Earth.
The Chimeran population, well Shadowfall is the ONLY world that opened it's door to them and welcomed them when they fled Earth Post-Liberation, and they're more than willing to fight to protect their home.

So, Humanity sees a world it covets, droolingly-so, but must keep hands-off, as NOW Humanity has someone to Answer To.
Humanity no longer has Carte`-Blanche among the stars.

Blackwinter-witch Humanity has to answer to its self made god? That concept would almost warrant its own forum let alone thread. Sorry- I can only up vote once.

dk

Thank-you for the up-vote!! :)

Well, the Chimerans aren't 'god' or 'gods', but they are tougher than almost anything Humanity has ever faced before in all of History, and are capable of meeting any threat Humanity issues head-on and not blink.

Basically, Humanity created something in it's own image, and it's every bit as dangerous (and more-so) than Humanity can be, so Humanity created (accidentally) a self-made Rival species.

“We raise some very interesting questions about the position and possibility of AI against human condition, and it crosses into the zone of apartheid — kind of like how Roy Batty was treated like a second-class citizen [in ‘Blade Runner’],” Scott said.

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/alien-awakening-next-alien-movie-ridley-scott-1202011249/

Just throwing this out there as I have to admit that what's going on with the ALIEN franchise hurts.

Please bear with me as my brain rebels.

Humans evolve on Kobol, the gods and men lived together. Man on kobol stole fire from the gods, that fire was the knowledge of life, how to create life, they created their own life (cylons). That creation and the destruction of their paradise was the end of kobol.

So the surviving Humans head to the next place they could, a small star cluster with many habitable worlds and founded the 12 colonies, while the surviving Cylons go off to find Earth.

Then, well... and at some point, the people on Earth, the cylons on Earth, repeated the pattern and destroyed themseleves as well. This feeds into the overall “all this has happened before and will happen again” mythology of the show.

Then, yeah, the 12 Colonies Humans develop Cylons, and we all know how THAT goes.

Humans and cylons run away across the stars...the gods are seriouslt absent since Kobol, possibly scared I think.
Find 'New' Earth, settle down, interbreed amongst themselves and the indigenous Humans of New Earth.

150 Millenia later...

Peter Weyland creates David...

SO..JUST saying, there's an Interesting linkage here that while it cannot be explored As-Per due to licensing and such, there's thw Core Idea that could be explored in relation to the 'gods' as well, which would act as a nice doorway into opening the knowledge-windows about the 'gods' (Engineers) and that maybe Humanity is far older than it thinks...

*watches old Adama facepalming* XD

Well, whether we like it or not, there's some parallels there, and I did warn y'all my brain was kinda rebelling vs what the ALIEN franchise is doing... :D