Juggernaut vs. Derelict

Honestly i get a bit confused myself with this

I think one is the Hyper sleep pods. There are 4 in Prometheus craft and in a similar position in Alien they arent to be seen. That is what i was told on here. There are probably many others but i always think that we have to realise how far apart they were made and how RS may want things to look now as per 40 years ago. 

Similar to the SJ maybe ? Where Prometheus suit and SJ suit are clearly different. 

This has been debated and evolved a debate over the years with each extra clue...

There are a number of reasons for the differences, Originally they was intended to be the SAME but some creative control had decided to Tone down the HR Giger Aesthetic a Touch

Another Change was the Shape as RS wanted to show the Ship Rolling and the Shape of the Derelict which was more like a U logically would not roll, and so they made the Shape more of a C

Externally apart from differences in dimensions (Juggernaught is Larger than the Derelict) and shape a bit, the appearance of both Derelict and Juggernaught are very similar.

Internally however they are different, the Derelict looking more Organic, and also a different looking Control Room which looked much larger than that on the Juggernaught, the Derelicts also only had the Pilot Chair and no Cryo-sleep Pods in the Control/Pilot Room.

But originally those Cryo-Pods where to be located in another area, but this was changed to have them go into the Control Room by the time they began Production and Lindeloff began Script Re-writes.

Ridley Scott had first said the differences are because the Derelict is just that, its old and worn and a Derelict while the Juggernauts are Pristine and as New.

RS had then mentioned years after, that the Derelict and Juggernaught designs are separated by a few hundred years. So the Juggernauts are likely Newer Models.

And so a analogy i used years ago, applies today too.

"Similar to the SJ maybe ? Where Prometheus suit and SJ suit are clearly different"

Indeed Sherris over time each movie the visual atheistic changed, the 1979 Xenomorph is quite different to the more Organic Alien 3, Alien R and AVP movie ones.  And so it could have been artistic direction and changes that we was meant to assume to look more similar and so was a kind of oversight.

Yet for a number of Fans these Differences just dont add up and cant be accepted,  and so Ultimately we need to see a more Organic Derelict and a more Organic and Larger Space Jockey.

The Space Jockey and the Suits in Prometheus/Alien Covenant are actually not that different, only the Head looks more different.  The size is different though as the Space Jockey was Twice the size of the Engineers and nearly twice the size of the Space Jockey suits in Prometheus well a good 170% larger

All these things and RS comments could have been passed off and explained due to Age and Different Models, but since Alien Covenant we are now being led to the Path that the Derelict was not on LV-223 until at least 17-18 years before Alien... due to the movies Time Line... but actually if they are going the Direct Route that LV-426 has no Derelict at the time of Alien Covenant and David is off to Origae-6 and arrives there before we even get to the Derelict having Davids Eggs on it.

Then NOW the Derelict would be on LV-426 for up to 10 years Maximum and likely 5-9 years prior to Alien.

Nice one BigDave !!

I spoke about this in a few comments and it is how on Earth after the revelations of A:C (David Xeno,faster growth rate in A:C but not in Alien which is Davids Xeno) and the positions in space and the strict timeline add up to A:A needing a master ideas,answers and themes in one film.

I even tried to suggest Planet 4 and LV 426 are somehow the same or at least in the same system but it had so many discrepancies it can not be possible. So this is just mounting up to be one big headache for Fox.

It will take a lot of inspiration and hard work for them to get this next thing right.

Can not understand A:C tearing up so many things that Prometheus set up. We running out of time and 2hrs screen time is all we have left. 123 mins max.

I think a lot depends on the writers and RS and FOX and how much thought they put into things as far as continuity and well looking at History sadly this sometimes goes out the Window.

If the Derelict is not on LV-426 from prior to the sequels to Alien Covenant,  so for example the Derelict could have been there for a long time but David just eventually gets his Eggs onto the Derelict.

If they go for this ^^^^ and if David does not just use the Covenant Crew while on the Ship to make all of his Eggs, and so he arrives at Origae-6 then they would arrive there about 10 years before Alien and if David then leaves on a Company Ship that is only as Fast as the Covenant then its likely it would take another 7 or so years to LV-426

If they go the route that as of the year December 2104 which is now when David has control of the Covenant... that there is no Derelict on LV-426....  Then at some point between the end of Alien Covenant and the start of Alien... 17 years,  David has to Multiply his Experiments and these manage to get on a Engineer Ship.

I think it would be to much of a Coincidence and Lazy if they have it that Origae-6 happens to be by pure Luck a Engineer World, even if its one that is now in Ruin.

so it would be more likely as RS had hinted at, that some Engineers return to Paradise/Planet 4 find out what has happened and then they will be on their way to deal with the Culprit (David)

I would assume the Engineers do-not discover what happened until David is either well on his way to Origae-6 or even arrives there.   And so the Engineers will most likely come back into it and Davids Experiments end up on one of their Ships.. But i would assume it would likely be way past the year 2112 by the time the Engineers interact with David and his Creation.

Then why ask how does the Engineer ship get to LV-426, does it decide to go to Earth to kills Humans with Davids Creation or does David get the Ship and decide to kill Humans... either way...  Its a bit of a Coincidence the Ship ends up passing near LV-223 System on its way to Earth... what are the Chances?

So i think if THEY (RS and Production) really use their brains... then after David gets to Origae-6 (if this is where he is going)  then Logically at some point after  the Engineer Ship (be it David or Engineers) would likely be heading to LV-223 for some purpose.

For Engineers maybe to Eradicate LV-223, or head there to Evolve Davids Experiments. Before they may wish to destroy Earth.

For David its maybe he wants to evolve his Experiments on LV-223 or he wants to obtain some more Black Goo to create more or use this on Earth.

Then either Engineers or David either suffer the Space Jockey Event while they are heading to LV-223 or while they are leaving LV-223 and then end up on LV-426

I think this has to happen, but then with the writers and Plot who knows what they will do, what i have put its the Logical Last Moments prior to Alien but who knows what the Hell FOX/RS have in Store.

"Can not understand A:C tearing up so many things that Prometheus set up. We running out of time and 2hrs screen time is all we have left. 123 mins max."

Indeed to get from Planet 4 to Origae-6 and have David experiment and build his Army then for the company and Engineers to be incoming and then a Engineer Ship with Davids Evolved Creation ending up on LV-426

Needs TWO movies or at least a 3 HOUR one.

If this is not the case, then they now need to cut things down and i feel the Movie would have to start as a AFTERMATH... so we arrive on Origae-6 David has been there for a few years, maybe setting up the Colony before he then uses them for his Army of Xenomorphs.

So the year is 2112-2115 the company arrives at Origae-6 and discover a part set up colony and then uncovers Davids Experiments.... then latter the Engineers Arrive and we see them at the end take Davids Experiments onto their ship... or David manages to see them off and take his Experiments on that ship.

Show the Cargo Hold full of Eggs, and the Pilot reveal who they are... and they set off into Space.....   No Space Jockey event shown but clearly enough to show us that THIS Ship and Cargo end up on LV-426 after the Pilot gets infected.

The Advent Video which i will debate on those threads latter, seems to imply David is sending over information over to the Company....... even as far as some of his works..

This means he had enough time to sneak not only Face Huggers but also some of his concept works and studies?  Really?  Its more less lazy if they then show he returns to Paradise and brings on board some Eggs and some of his Data.

But then the Company would be in the know and what to kind of expect... so when they arrive to meet David then it would be a bit of a silly plot, because the company should be

1) Concerned with David due to the models failings.

2) Have caution to how he admits he is gladly killing and using Humans for his Experiments.

3) Have Caution to the potential Threat these Experiments could have.

So the Advent sets up a flawed Plot now...

It would be better if he acted as Walter to the Company and Lure them to arriving at Origae-6 to discover a Colony and want answers to what happened to delay the Covenant... then they discovers Davids Trap.

But alas this shows how the writers really dont seem to be thinking things though logically.

ninXeno426 - From my relevant topic:

’Ridley had decided that the derelict ship in the first Alien was one of the group that had gone off and his cargo had gotten out of control, and the space jockey died in the process. So that ship happened to be as it were a brother to the Juggernaut that we see coming out of the ground in Prometheus. They were made roughly the same period give or take a hundred years.

Rick Stammers as special effects supervisor was made aware it might have come from the same factory as the one in Alien, and there again they are not the same ship, it had less emphasis on the bones and organic shapes that were present in Giger's work. Beyond that there is no real link between the two, but it shows who may have had these capabilities to have dreadful weapons beyond anything we could possibly conceive, as sort of bacteriological drums of awful substance that you can drop on a planet.

Because the Juggernaut was carefully stored away underground, Conor O'Sullivan talked about how the details on the walls and the ground are much finer and better defined because the environment is meant to be in almost mint condition.’

Richard  Stammers (Special Effects Supervisor): The Juggernaut might look like it has come from the same factory as the derelict in Alien, but it is not the same ship. The exterior shape is similar, but it has way more detail; and inside, it had a little less emphasis on bones and organic shapes  than were present in Giger’s work. We had two practical set pieces representing the juggernaut, with doorways again resembling an orifice of questionable nature. (Cinefex 130, p59)

Great to see this topic ninXeno426. Thank you.

IMO this is a perfect example of how convoluted the franchise has and is becoming...

Until Prometheus we had one of these ships that had 'crashed' on LV-426 (yes, I know, some prefer the term landed). Yet now post Covenant we have been shown two more which have also 'crashed', and despite looking and for all intentions being identical to the one on LV-426 these two newer ships aren't the same, are bigger and have different insides.

Would an advanced race really create two different ships to look like each other at a glance, is there an uber-juggernaut that looks the same but is miles long. And it's a little peculiar that considering the advanced tech these Juggernauts aren't all that good at doing what ships are meant to do - stay in the air.