Aliens First

I disagree with the video. I think the prevailing idea was the Engineers used the Xenos as a bio weapon and not that they created Engineers to spread eggs. I could be wrong though. I would have a tough time seeing things going that way.

I cant get the video to work, but we cant discredit every theory, it is still plausible, but i think the Xenomorph could well not be a Creators of the Engineers, but vice versa, well i feel we have to accept David Created the Xenomorph, but this does not mean the Ancestor to the Xenomorph that we see in the Mural is actually a form of God the Engineers Worship.

I dont agree with this, but thats just my opinion based purely well mainly on my different interpretations of the Mural etc, with which Alien Engineers gives us the Key to Unlock Prometheus.

As i had said in a previous post the Franchise Evolved from Star Beast, which was a story about a Ancient Alien Species who Procreated with the need of a Host, and had a Unique Life-Style.  They are Born as a Face Hugger from  Eggs/Spores, the Face Hugger infects its host so that a Embryo is placed inside which gestates into a Chest Buster Infant Stage, which then Grows and Evolves into the Juvenile Stage, where it then becomes Sexually Mature, well is then able to continue its Procreation by Infected a Host to Turn into a Egg/Spore and the Cycle Begins again..  

These Star Beasts are usually raised by older versions of their kind and they become domesticated and civilized and have their own unique culture, where they require Sacrificial Hosts to Procreate their kind.  With no Hosts, they can not Procreate and over time WHEN the adults die out or disappear for other reasons all that remains are the Eggs/Spores which can stay dormant for a long time.

Star Beast was showing us a Race that had some degree of intelligence and civilization, that had a very fast growth rate, we can only image if a Human Baby could Evolve to a 15-17 year old Teenager within a short span of time and imagine what a Human Teenager who has grown to that age within a matter of 24 hours or less would actually Act Like?  With no one to look over it and teach it, the Human would potentially be very Feral and Hostile.

The equivalent of the Space Jockey in Star Beast, were but just a Giant Race of Explorers who happened to come to this World and discover the ruins of a Pyramid, which was a left over relic and kind of Maternity Ward of this Ancient long gone Star Beast Civilization, and thus the Giant Space Explores had fell victim to the Star Beast due to their own Curiosity and attempts to take the discovered Eggs/Spores (which came in like Leather Vases) to their Ship for Study....  The Giant Race thus fell to the same kind of Hubris that befell the Prometheus Crew to a degree, only in Prometheus they believed Mankind was invited to the place that lead to their Doom.

ALIEN Evolved this, by having the Giant skeletal remains of this Giant Race, become connected to the what was Star Beast, the Pyramid Tomb that had those Eggs/Spores was now a Cargo Hold of Eggs stored on this Giant Races Ship, and shown that these were Bio-Weapons.   There was a relationship between the Ship, the Xenomorph and the Space Jockey, they was connected but it was left a Mystery how..  (even though RS confirmed the Ship was a Bio-Weapons Cargo ship, and the Space Jockey the Pilot and the Eggs the Bio-Weapon that had got out of control).

HR Gigers Mural did seem to show us a connection, between the Derelict the Eggs and the Xenomorph as to that they share the same DNA/Aesthetic, HR Gigers Mural showing a Humanoid Space Suited Race who was Self Sacrificing themselves to Procreate these Eggs, which the Mural seemed to show was being created from tiny like Worms.  HR Giger intended these Murals to be placed in the Eggs Silo/Cargo Hold above Giant Bio-Mechanical Devices that Giger said were like Pregnant Bellies and these would create the Eggs.

He also suggested he felt the Derelict Ships were Grown and not created/manufactured.

So looking at HR Gigers Mural and ideas, and looking at Star Beast as far as the Original ideas, then we could see that it could be that there is some Symbiotic Relationship between the Derelict Ship that Created the Eggs, and those Humanoids who Sacrificed themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph..   But is this showing us that the Xenomorph related Organism/Ship is the Creators, or the Race that is higher in the Hierarchy than those Humanoid Sacrifices...  or did the Humanoids Create the Ships/Eggs and used their own kind to Procreate this Creation?

This is something open for Debate...

HOWEVER... Prometheus sent us down a different path, Alien Covenant further deviating from perhaps the ideas of Star Beast and HR Gigers Mural and ideas.

But alas until we have all our Answers Spoon Fed to us, and until and if the Mural and Black Goo in Prometheus are explained, then its all pretty much open to various theories and debates.

Interesting theory, so the Xeno's would be the "Alpha's" then?! Would be an intriguing twist that's for sure. I think in order for this to work there would need to be some type of mutual symbiotic relationship between Xeno's and Engineers.

The Xeno's use the Engineers as their artificial propagation agent/vector, but what do the Engineer's get from it? And please don't say Royal Jelly aka Xeno-zip lol ;-p

But IMHO it gives the Xeno species too much of an agenda, rather than being a true neutral survivor. They are terrifying because they are without conscious, without morale or remorse. They just survive. How do you combat that?

If the species is dependant on the Engineer race to help them propagate, they have a weakness that can be combatted. That makes them less formidable. Like the quote in Predator suggests....

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

IRaptus Good points. It is an interesting theory and has some decent points but I honestly don't see RS going that route since he wanted to explore the Engineers more and didn't care much about the Xenos anymore. It should also be considered what is going to work at the all mighty box office- it's just a reality.

Ridley's first idea for the xeno was that it became an intelligent sentient being. during its early stage it is a highly aggressive species but after some time, it evolves and becomes a species capable of communication, living in social structures and using technology. whether we see this come true or not is another thing but that's not to say the original (the one in the mural) wasn't an intelligent and highly evolved species.

This is actually somewhat similar to an old theory of mine which I created to answer a flaw in the Xenomorphs allocated form of propagation, to answer the question of what happens when the Xenomorph runs out of viable hosts. Presumably, they would wither and die, leaving behind their eggs. My theory was as such...

If we look at the Drone (Alien, Alien 3) as an infertile male of the species, and look at the Warrior (Aliens) as an infertile female, and the Queen as a fertile female, could there be a fertile male of the Xenomorph species, AKA the King. I postulated that once indigenous hosts became scarce the Queen of each hive created up to that point would sire a lone fertile male in the usual fashion. The adolescent/juvenile version of this new breed AKA Prince Alien would then meet and fight other Princes in the vicinity, to the death, until only one remained. Upon victory, the Prince would then be set upon en-masse by the Drones and Warriors from the nearby hives, which by vibrating their bodies would generate insane amounts of body heat forcing the Prince to molt into its adult form, the King.

With a King born the Queens from each of the neighboring hives would then surround the King, taking turns to copulate with the beast before returning back to their nurseries within the hives. Inseminated with the Kings seed the Queens would then be able to produce a new strain of egg in addition to the traditional Facehugger eggs, within which would have been a sub-species that was the opposite of the Xenomorph (soft skinned, intelligent) that the Xenomorphs would then use as hosts, allowing the hive to continue.

Originally I imagined this sub-species would be the Predators, who would use the Xenomorph to hunt as a rite of passage into adulthood. And to further the symbiotic relationship between the two I imagined that the Predators would be sterile, needing the Alien to produce more 'Predator eggs' to sustain their numbers and continue as a species. But with the AvP movies having performed so poorly, and with the birth of the prequel series and the Engineers I could easily imagine the Engineers in their place.

that prince alien would be one lucky SOB. all that tail on a plate lol

Hi!

A visionary opinion, according to me. I thinm that we will never know who made engeneers (probably). As for now I'd like to see why do they want to destroy humans and who's their leader.

I am seriously interested in having this answer also because seems like R. Scott got insipred by the Bible, which is pratically the same story of Prometheus (but without Aliens)

BigDave, I absoloutely love the idea of Starbeast so much more than Alien. Is there a book of Starbeast? 

@Critters5

I cant find the original Star Beast but the first incarnations of ALIEN are pretty much the same, i will post a link below... this Alien is different to the latter versions that became the movie and it is near enough the same as the earlier Star Beast, well i am pretty sure its almost the same.

Alien Star Beast

@Cristian

I do think if RS is able to complete his ideas and if we do get to see more movies than the TWO more prequels to ALIEN, that we will find out about the Creators of the Engineers i think we will see a Hierarchy above them or at least have this mentioned in the next two movies, but these may be very related to the Engineers.  I feel RS has a idea of some Race/Thing/Being/Power or Machine more at the Top of the Hierarchy it will be interesting if they are still on the same idea with this and if we ever will see it.  I feel at very least their is one Element above the Engineers which we will be introduced to or have it mentioned, but again i am not sure how much more Alien these will be and i would assume they would look Engineer/Human still.

As far as Biblical Connections, RS was also looking at other Mythos too, but the Question now is if we will explore the Hierarchy/Creators in any context we can associate with Religions and Mythos as Prometheus seemed to be more or less LOOSELY touching on this things more in the Ancient Astronaut theory way.

@Gavin

Some interesting ideas, and we cant 100% rule out them going back to something more HR Giger and something related to the Plot of the Starbeast, but only maybe as far as revealing some Race/Species that are Aesthetically related to the Xenomorph but appearing to be different.  But we  dont know how much of a Plan FOX/RS had when they worked on Alien Engineers and how Different the Plan or idea is now.  For example the Mural and Frescos in Prometheus, revealing a relationship between Engineers and very HR Giger/Xenomorph Atheistic beings.

Regarding what happens when a Xenomorph dies, it did make a Cabbage Patch post before showing how a Patch can look like Rows of Xenomorph Eggs, but then mentioned how Cabbages Procreated and how it would be very ALIEN if they explored a similar route with the Xenomorph.   Basically any part of  a Cabbage that falls to a fertile ground will Rot Away and from its remains will spring forth New Cabbages.  So they kind of have a revolving Life-Cycle, and this could incorporate into the Xenomorph...

so when they Die, there Bodies would start to degenerate but from the material would sprout New Eggs.  And so even when they naturally die, there bodies would dissolve and from this New Egg/Eggs would grow.  Making them very much like Cabbages.  This would make them very ideal Bio-Weapons because it would negate the need for a Egg Morph, and Queen but they could still exist, and indeed the Process that the Xenomorph goes through when it dies to Evolve into a Egg, could be used to infect other Organic Life and Evolve them into Eggs..

The End Result would mean if the Xenomorph had a limited Life Span, we could see say 25 Xeno Eggs be able to infect say 25 hosts and then say Egg Morph say 50 other Hosts so we have 50 Eggs, but then if the Xenomorphs when they reach the end of their cycles they too evolve into Eggs... means that after a initial 25 Egg shipment to a area, after a period of time we end up with NO Xenomorphs but 75 Eggs.

I remember making this post a long time ago, way prior to Alien Covenant, but when we see Alien Covenant and the Spores, indeed its something that could fit with the suggestions i made in that CABBAGE PATCH Topic, that a dying Xenomorph decomposes and Spores Grow from the remains that can infect Hosts.

I heard the mural was a props to Giger and nothing more meaningful. 

I heard that too....

The Mural in Prometheus that is, one rumor was that as they had toned down the Xenomorph DNA in Prometheus with the Trilobite/Deacon being the only real links that people may get. It is rumored that the Mural designs was only as a Easter Egg to the Xenomorph and HR Giger works to appease fans.

This (IF TRUE) shows FOX  have completely not got  a clue what they are doing, because in a Movie so Vague and Ambiguous, a movie that many fans wanted to see how it connects to a Alien Prequel.... The MURAL and Frescos were something interesting that many people would be looking at for clues.

If they are just a case of..... "ok well lets put something cool  and Alien Related in as a Easter Egg" purely because it looks Cool and for no other reason, then a lot of theories which include most of mine are then completely NULL

A Easter Egg is using the Aspen Beer  and for a series of Alien Prequels, putting anything in which could Genetically link to the Xenomorph/Giger Aesthetic are just giving Fans Red Herrings.

These EASTER EGGS if you would, actually provided great Topics to Debate for theories and potential ideas how the Franchise can expand... but ALAS if all they are is COOL Easter Eggs and they had no meaning and FOX are intending to not cover them... as they dont exist apart from looking COOL then it Sadly shows FOX and those working on the Movies have not got a CLUE.

Some Easter Eggs are ok to use, like the Chicken Burster HR Giger First Chest Buster Concept, with which David has a Organism he experimented with in his Work Shop that is a Prop made based on HR Gigers Concepts.

Some are just Stupid to use, we see in Davids Workshop the Bio-Mechanical Xeno, Classic Egg and Face Hugger, these for those with KEEN eyes could mean the Classic Xenomorph has already been encountered and studied by David....   but alas it appears they felt lots of the Concept works done by the team would LOOK cool if they was in Davids workshop..   There even is Dane Hallets very Mechanical Looking Xenomorph esque Concept work.

However the one on the right made it into Davids Workshop and so looks less Mechanical.

The Problem FOX set themselves up with is by adding pieces of Work into the Movie or Marketing that are intended to have no bearing or connection at all but to LOOK COOL when all they do is be taken as clues by some fans or even build up expectations of something Grand... when in reality this is far from the Truth.

I am sure everyone remembers this POSTER?

Which Ultimately had nothing to do with Alien Covenant, but still keeps some fans hopping this kind of Scene happened in the past or could happen in the FUTURE and hopefully either could be referenced in future movies.

But in reality it could just be we will never see this, it is just a COOL Art piece that has Xenomorph type Organisms and Engineer Type Humanoids, and has no bearing at all on the PLOT.

Sadly Bigdave I think the mural is just an easter egg. I think we as fans look much further into all of these topics than even the writers and director do. I think unless a Fanboy gets to direct an Alien movie we will always get material that is missing the mark and shallow. 

@ Critters5,

"I think unless a Fanboy gets to direct an Alien movie we will always get material that is missing the mark and shallow."

This has already happened it was called Aliens, and look at how some of the fans treat that movie. It could have happened again with Neill Blomkamp.

critters, im not sure of a starbeast book but if ur looking for the script got to simplyscripts. theres loads of unproduced alien scripts there

Just rewatched Prometheus again last night first time since watching AC. Man was that a better movie than AC! I really do like Prometheus and would love to see a similar movie for Awakening but I do want to see some alien experiments, evolution and explanations. 

I think Sadly thats going to be hard to do with the direction they taken with AC.

Prometheus set up to show us the Engineers are behind the Space Jockey, and LV-223 was a place they was testing some Bio-Weapon that was linked to the Xenomorph, it was just not as clear to some. But then a lot of the clues for me came from maybe those Easter Eggs...

So Prometheus did enough to show us that the Space Jockey was the Engineer Race, and introduce a whole Story about them playing a part in our creation, and then they decided we was a failed creation and had conducted tests/experiments to create something Horrific to use upon us but this back fired.

Engineers Agenda/Home-world  <==== Prometheus ====> Engineers Bio-Weapon relates to ALIEN

Above is the TWO kinds of Routes they could have taken, it appeared they was gearing for the Engineers Agenda route, before a U-Turn and now we are on a path to have to directly link to ALIEN where the Time-Line would be altered in order to literally shoe-horn in the Space Jockey event.

The only other way around this would have been Time-Travel as i dont think FOX would have considered a event showing us the Engineers and what lead to the Space Jockey as far as prolonged Flash Backs

I still don't understand was Paradise the Engineer home world, a planet seeded by the Engineers with another humanoid race or another Engineer planet where Engineers (who look nothing like Engineers) live? Such piss poor writing. 

Sorry but I don't like it. It gives too much intelligence to the Xenos and it seems like a movie like that would be like AVP in quality. The monsters should not just be bugs that you can kill easily but they should not be extremely intelligent either, there got to be some balance. Perhaps it could be kept like fan-fiction of some sort but not as a movie.

But the guy in the video had a great point, without a social structure in place the Xeno's would regress and act like animals just as humans do if raised in the wild, running on all fours. 

well Critters5 lets hope we get some answers regarding what Planet 4 was in the next few movies, its open to debate what role everything there plays. I have a few theories on the subject.... But they could end up taking this Topic in a different direction, well maybe.

It could be just those Engineers chose to revert back to more Ancient ways due to the Hubris of Sub-creating and maybe trying to Perfect their Species. But there are so many clues that does not quite fit, and so leads me to think these beings are just a Genetic Stock that are used for Sacrifices.

Yea I heard a theory that the statues on Planet 4 are Engineers who gave their lives as sacrifices. 

I see similarities between the Juggernaut with the thousands of eggs in the hold and the Covenant with its cargo of thousands of colonists. I don't believe the Juggernaut left LV223 after the outbreak because it should have been loaded wuth thousands of urns of black goo instead of eggs, there was no trace of eggs on LV223.

The idea that the xenomorph created the engineers is however far fetched, same as the idea that Jesus was an engineer. 

The SJ cannot be an engineer suit, but something that inspired the design of an engineer suit. It's like the engineers painted their cave walls in the dawn of their civilization with SJ creatures. 

Why not the SJ be the creator of both the engineers and the xenomorphs? Or at least someone familiar from their past?

Not sure if we'll ever find out, but we can create our own myths so which way is better? I prefer the mystery to some fanboy version that has all the premises to kill the beauty of the alien universe. 

I don't need another Aliens.

Thats the logical set up daliens.

If David is the Creator of the Xenomorph so that without his Bombardment and Experiments on Planet 4 there would be NO Xenomorph in Alien, then the Fact David has Thousands of Colonist does appear to be a Shoe-horned Plot that THESE Colonist end up being the Eggs, unless David Creates a Queen.

Then those EGGS must get to and on-board a Engineer Ship, Finally this ship must END up in the LV-223/426 System which i can assume is no where near Origae-6.   It appears David is going to ORIGAE-6 so this takes 7.5 years off the 18 years until Alien, which means those EGGS and the SPACE JOCKEY will have been on LV-426 for no more than 10 years.

The SJ Ultimately will not be nothing more than a Space Suit, they can FIX issues of Size though by revealing a Race above the Engineers who are 12-15ft tall and are Humanoid but maybe not so Human looking.  A Problem is if they go the 1979 Xenomorph and Space Jockey Aesthetic it could be a case of coming to a agreement with the HR Giger Estate.

I really think its going to be David in the SJ seat. I don't think they have the time to introduce though I would love it a new more SJ accurate race of Engineers. I think they will shoehorn it home. 

I think there is a chance for just that. (Time for Engineers to come into play).

You see Critters5 if we look at the set up, we have David in charge of the Covenant Space Craft, which will take 7.5 years to Origae-6, now i think having Origae-6 being a World that has Humanoids already there would be a bit of a coincidence, especially if they are Engineers or Humans.

So i can safely assume David has NO access to a Engineer Ship when he arrives at Origae-6... HOWEVER Ridley Scott had said that there would be 3-4 incoming Parties ONE of which are the ENGINEERS who return to Planet 4 and Discover what has happened, and they wont be best pleased and would want to hunt down who ever caused this.

So its Safe to Assume Engineers will arrive at very least, and its via their Actions that is where the Derelict comes from, be it.

1) A Engineer Juggernaught AKA Derelict that Goes to Origae-6 then heads to LV-223.

2) A Engineer Ship/ or David some other way ends on LV-223 and this is where the Derelict is obtained.

Ridley Scott mentioned the Derelict is hundreds of years older/newer than the Juggernaught, if he plans to keep to this to show why they appear a bit different, then this leaves it VERY OPEN for the Derelict Ship to be a incoming Engineer Related Ship.

David said the engineers banished the wolf. What if the derelict was one of the ships that removed the already created eggs from an engineer world (like we do with the dangerous waste)? They realized it might get out of their control so they decided to move it elsewhere.

Maybe they could not destroy it on their own planet due to the acid blood, or they did not want to do any damage to their environment or even were afraid that something might go wrong during the process (it eventually happened to the SJ).

If that is a plausible scenario it would not be difficult to show it in the next film, as a flashback even.

A beast is so called that for a reason, although human beings are proving everyday that "homo sapiens" don't actually apply.

The very first beast is smart, but lacks every sense of preserving life, but its own - which we just can't apply to every single "homo sapiens", let alone real human beings.

So, (if we follow xenomorph=creator & engineers=creation), how come a creator lacks the very same motive for creating? It doesn't make sense.

And, amazing enough, the guys up here who get to even consider the primary issue on this post... Well, they are the ones who don't like AI imersed in the Alien universe at all.

How come?

The Banishing of the Wolf, could relate to the Xenomorph (Black Goo) it could also mean Creation so Mankind could have been the Engineers Wolf, because its a bit ambiguous.

I would assume however it is regarding the Black Goo and what ever Experiments that lead to that Black Goo, and so this is maybe like the COVENANT between GOD and Mankind, when he vowed he would never Flood the World again.

Years ago when discussing why the Engineers never returned i did wonder if it was just as with GOD and the Great Flood, in that the Engineers decided to abandon the Punishment intended and to never attempt this again and turn their backs on Mankind... Simply Abandon us to our own Destruction, thinking without the Engineers we would never Evolve past how we was thousands of years ago.

So they made a Covenant to Abandon the LV-223 Bio-Weapons Objective, but then we cant be 100% sure because we dont yet have any 100% reason for why the Engineers would welcome back a Juggernaught ship if it was linked purely to Destruction their race had turned their backs on.