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What we know about Engineers so far

What we know about Engineers so far

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Dark Nebula

Sep-22-2018 8:55 AM

Infos gathered from the commentary, many interviews.

-LV-223 was a military outpost. Confirmed by Ridley Scott on the commentary of AC.

-Engineers are not gods, just superior beings. Confirmed by RS on the commentary of AC and many interviews.

-Engineers (in the context of those from Planet 4) have a lifespan of around 150 years. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.

-The giant stone heads inside the citadel represent 6-7 elders of the entire civilization; Intellects, artists, wise men. Confirmed by RS on the commentary of AC.

-The artbook also described the giant stone heads as a way Engineers celebrate themselves. Like a depiction of false gods watching over everything.

-Beings on Planet 4 are Engineers. This was confirmed by the filmmakers in the interviews, commentary of the film, artbook, and the people who played them.

-There are female Engineers. Females are seen in the flashback and in some of David's illustrations. Also, people who got to play these Engineers said
there were females on the set.

"Now this is a good question! We worked with a second unit that day and the second unit director wasn’t giving much away to what we really were but they did confirm we
are Engineers! And the costume designer called us all “her Engineers” so we do know we are 100% Engineers but I do believe our origins is something
M.r Scott is holding close to his chest… what I will say there was speculation that the Prometheus Engineers where more like a military type rather than our more
civilian look I think all will be revealed if Sir Ridley gets his way and films the next one."- Billy Mansell on AVP Galaxy interview.

-The Engineer's role is evolution. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.

-Ridley Scott also said that he sees Engineers as gardeners of space.

-During a podcast with empire magazine, Scott explained that the Engineers visit planets they seeded with life to check on them, and to update them. If their creations proved
to be a disappointment, the Engineers would wipe out the whole planet and start all over again.

"If the planet went wrong, they would want to wipe it clean. But that could take 500 years. When they revisit –
because different visitors would come back and see we’re not doing so well – they would look at these human beings that are jerks,
that are killing the planet, killing themselves, can’t settle down, they’re like a bunch of children. We should wipe it clean."

-Ridley also mentioned on the commentary of AC that the Engineers let their children, human beings, get out of control. So humans are both no longer valid
or useful.

-Despite being more powerful than humans, Engineers were defeated by their own invention. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.

-Engineers send their ships on different intervals. When Shaw and David's juggernaut arrived, there was a welcoming ceremony occuring as 2 million Engineers
gathered at the plaza, welcoming the juggernaut's arrival. When David unleashed the ampules, they were shocked by the act. Explained by RS in the commentary of AC.

-Scott James, the guy who played the Engineer in AC, in AVP Galaxy interview also indicated that Engineers send their ships on various missions.

"The Engineers send the crescent-ships out on a various mission and they return infrequently. It’s a very big event and those at home make the effort to show their respect and welcome the ships and their honored crew home. This seems consistent with the ritualistic and important ceremony afforded to the sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus. No-one was expecting David’s ship back, but they’re obviously a trusting race…a bit too trusting maybe! They realize something’s wrong when the cylinders drop but don’t know what’s happening then yeah…it becomes pretty apparent after it’s too late."

-Ridley Scott and Damon Lindelof mentioned this many times before, but they speculated that The Engineers didn't originally create the black goo.

 

86 Responses to What we know about Engineers so far

Dark Nebula

Oct-04-2018 7:45 AM

"I think a lot of Fans were disappointed the Planet 4 Engineers just seemed to not look as Inspiring as the Prometheus ones, was this only in PART due to the Technological Level and thus a LACK of HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic to their City and Clothing?"

 

I think when scientifically speaking since planet 4 is a pretty much Earth-like planet, it makes sense why these Engineers look more like humans because they evolved on that planet. I understand a lot of people were expecting Gigeresque buildings but there were some disagreements between the studio and Giger's estate.

This also got me into thinking that the Engineers weren't only going around seeding planets with life, but maybe we're also trying to create other planets habitable like their own.

If you look at David's lab, a lot of preserved specimens and anatomical illustrations are pretty much Earth-like organisms.

Also, if they (The engineers) would have been over 10'+, they wouldn't look like a scaled up version of themselves, they would have a completely different biology, such as thicker, pillar-like legs so they wouldn't be crushed under the pressure.

Human bodies are specifically evolved for certain height limit. Our organs are best suited for average human height.

A lot of giant humans riddled with health issues and sadly died very young.

I'm not a GOT fan, but the giants from GOT are scientifically accurate.

Info credit: TREY the Explainer- Biology of giants.

I suggest watching the video.

 

BigDave

Oct-07-2018 5:18 PM

Certainly and in HINDSIGHT those kinds of GOT Special Effects, and the LOTR/HOBBIT to could have been used to make 10ft Engineers...

Certainly was the concept for the Engineers... as far as being more Bulky, thats a Good Point but as a Sci-Fi many things dont have to be Scientifically Accurate.. so we could have had more Taller, yet Slender beings...

HOWEVER....

If we look at the SPACE JOCKEY and i mean even considering it a Space Suit...  It appears to be more Bulky in the Body and Shoulders, than the ones in Prometheus.. a Suit more suited to a more SQUARE like Shaped body just like the Giant in Game of Thrones ;)

When i look at the Space Jockey Proportions it reminds me more of the Morphed Image to the Right Below.

 

So a Shape that maybe fits your POINT you made DarkNebula ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-07-2018 7:03 PM

Ive Revised the Proportions a little more...

 

And some of the earlier concept work for the Engineers showed a being that was broad at the shoulders and chest compared to the rest of the Body.

These concepts show a different Body Proportion than our Prometheus Engineers and Space Suits had, these had more Barrel Chested, Larger Shoulders, Longer Arms and Proportions a bit more similar to the Space Jockey.

So there is scope to reveal the Space Jockey as a related Race with different Body Proportions, or even also have them appear less Engineer looking like those Concepts above.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

Oct-08-2018 6:02 AM

IMO,

 

The Planet 4 Engineers are humans that have been "genetically optimized" but intellectually stunted to remain at the level of which they were when they were taken from Earth, as in pre - 0 A.D.

The LV-223 Engineers are a chosen few of the above that are augmented to use the technology granted to them from "a higher power", namely the Juggernauts.

The Juggernauts are not Engineer tech, and I strongly believe they aren't Space Jockey tech either. IMO, the Engineers, once former humans echo the Space Jockeys - a community of natives taken from their home and granted sanctuary while being used by said " higher power" to terminate life on their former homeworlds (for Engineers this would be Earth), replacing it with that of the Xenomorph.

BigDave

Oct-09-2018 5:06 AM

You raise a GOOD point Gavin...

Wayne Haag had mentioned that he felt the Technology was not the Engineers, so he was alluding to it being borrowed or stolen..  so we have to Ponder WHAT he meant by those remarks he made in a Interview....  Certainly you have to think the Juggernaught and Bio-Mechanical Aesthetics.... but could he also be thinking the Black-Goo too?

Was he referring to the Planet 4 Engineers? or implying ALL the Engineers as a Race who had not Created that Technology?  And we have to ask HOW did Wayne Haag come to such conclusions?  Was it his own personnel interpretation, or has he had some insight behind the scenes that gave him CLUES that showed him our Engineers are not where this Technology Originates from?

We have seen some theories and conclusions regarding this before Alien Covenant, a lot maybe stem from people who just cant accept or are not pleased with the Bio-Mechanical Tech and Space Jockey being merely the Technology of a Ancient Humanoid Race.   Some Fans are not pleased with WHO the Space Jockey had been hinted at, and while it still looks some kind of Space Suit... and NOT a Skeleton... i think many Fans would hope for it to be some LESS-HUMAN looking Species who are MUCH Taller than us.

This leaves Potential for us to Explore another Race.

But thats not to say this will be the case, or indeed that Wayne Haag's interpretation is VERY wrong.  We seem to be on course that David is the Creator of the Xenomorph or at very least its Progenitor and so the 1979 Xenomorph would not have Existed if it was not for the Prometheus Mission and David.

I think a lot comes down to the changes they have made from the Inception of ideas that lead to Jon Spaights works.  Before we had the Prequels, there was a Connection Aesthetically between the Derelict and the Xenomorph.

Maybe in HINDSIGHT they should have looked at HR Gigers Mural and Concept works for ALIEN and taken on-board his comments.

Especially the Alteration he made to his Original Mural that left us with this Final Product.

It seems to imply the SHIP shares a Genetic/Aesthetic with the Xenomorph, and the Ship seems to Supply something that Grows into Eggs, that we see a Space Suited ALIEN yet Humanoid Race appear to be Sacrificing their own to Procreate the Xenomorph.

This Mural was supposed to be positioned over the Bays that Hold the Eggs, numerous Bays, that had a Apparatus/Device on the Walls.. Which HR Giger had said was like Pregnant Bellies that would Produce the Eggs.

He also had said that he FELT the Derelict Ships were GROWN!

Could such things be explored to the Origins of the Technology?  And apply the Prometheus Themes by having it that the Engineers Ancestors where a Slave Race who had Broken Free and then used the Technology of their Captors/Creators?

Or have we gone down a PATH that would make going back to any kind of idea of what HR Gigers Mural was showing OBSOLETE?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Dark Nebula

Oct-09-2018 5:23 AM

Here's my attempt, hope you don't mind BigDave.

I always wondered by Godzilla has chubby legs, but then I found out why.

https://youtu.be/MnDsGd7c6Y4

BigDave

Oct-09-2018 5:30 AM

"The Planet 4 Engineers are humans that have been "genetically optimized" but intellectually stunted to remain at the level of which they were when they were taken from Earth, as in pre - 0 A.D."

This is a observation that a number of people had made... it depends on Interpretation, a interesting NOTE is the Original Prometheus Plot that came from Alien Engineers, where a Race of Humanoids had Evolved themselves beyond Procreation... in this kind of Plot the Sacrificial Rituals could have been a way of OBTAINING a Humanoid Organism to Procreate with... ONCE they had obtained a Humanoid to allow for their Species to ONCE again Procreate (hence the Hybrid Human/Engineer appearance) then maybe MANKIND would No-Longer be required.

But RS has said those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals and so the Prometheus Ones are not (Sacrificial/LV-223) which seems to suggest those beings are Creations of the Planet 4 Engineers or by their own Creators, or are a Genetically Evolved Sub Species of the Engineers.

But as this is not shown On-Screen then those comments by RS can be removed as Canon...  I think we need to also Consider what is meant by PARADISE?

If we look at Paradise as in the Place where the Garden of Eden was located, and then ACCEPT that the Biblical Account was taken from a Actual Event in the Franchise, but that Paradise is not a Location on Earth but Planet 4, then in context to the Garden of Eden/Cradle of Creation... then that City on Planet 4 and HOW those Engineers are kept how they appear and their Culture/Civilization does fit with how Adam/Eve were intended to had Lived out their Lives before the FALL.

I am drawn to these beings being used and collected as Sacrificial Stock to perform the Seeding of Worlds and that the Breaking Down and Storing of the Seeding Mutagen into Urns as opposed to just allowing the Engineer to Fall into a Waterfall, is actually a Evolution of the Seeding Ritual.  But thats just what i am drawn too.

I guess WAYNE HAAG is a Brain we would like to PICK!

Not only for HOW/WHY he is drawn to conclude the Technology does not belong/originate with the Engineers... but also WHY did he produce this Early Concept work, which was based off Steve Messings similar Concept too.

When i look at these and remember the Sources information about Mankind playing a Bigger Role... then it does get me Pondering what may have been?

While none of this apart from the Cathedral Itself made it into ALIEN COVENANT i do wonder WHY it Originally had such Murals on the Outside..... could this had been a Enigma for AC just as the Frescos in Prometheus was for that movie?  But like those.. they may have no baring/connection to the END PRODUCT.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Oct-09-2018 5:47 AM

Dark Nebula that is awesome! Chubby legs are of putting to say the least!

 

 

"he was alluding to it being borrowed or stolen"

 

Yes. I'd love to see the planet of the bio-mecanoids!

A planet where a trillion Engineers perished in the battle....They say the corpses are 100 meters deep in spots.

Weapons were useless against the biomechs they had to use brute force...just like an ant colony....Billions of Engineers in giant swarms ..rolling waves of them pulling and subduing the biomechs......It was glorious! 

BigDave

Oct-09-2018 7:31 AM

@Dark Nebula

I certainly think its possible... we DONT see the Space Jockey Legs...

Ive had a look at the Space Jockey and i have come up with what i feel is quite accurate to the Proportions... the Legs are a UNKNOWN maybe they could be more Bulky? But i also considered where would these Legs Fit in the Chair and taking into account SPACE for them to fit inside, so i am not sure the Legs would be much more Bulky.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Oct-09-2018 8:21 AM

This still doesn't look like a guy in a space suit to me. Maybe the engineers mimicked that shape with their suit, maybe that is a part of the engineers mythology, their Prometheus stealing the fire from the gods and failing to deliver, but I don't see the suit in that picture, no matter how hard I try. 

I know what Ridley Scott said and on this one he did not convince me. He didn't try very hard either.

I still believa the Space Jockey is a different,  possibly higher race to the engineers. 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Oct-10-2018 8:32 AM

I think its a case of personnel Opinion and indeed the comments by Dallas (Fossilized, Bones Bent Outwards) with the Skeletal Look of some of the Space Jockey had led many to Speculate it was a SKELETON even inspiring the earlier Comics from the late 80's and early 90's t depict the Space Jockey as the Fossilized Remains of a Alien Race.

The Inception of the idea came from STARBEAST where the Skeletal Remains was found of Giant Alien beings.

When we got to ALIEN and HR Giger came along to design the Space Jockey (as RS was really into his Bio-Mechanical Art) so he came up with a Creation that Blurred the Lines between what is Organic and what is Mechanical.

He ended up submitting the Concept which i have put above, and it looks like some kind of Space Suit, but it could be the remains of a Truly Bio-Mechanical being.. that connects to the Ship/Chair because this being is Part Organic/Part Machine and in this context the remains are more of a Exo-skeleton of some Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph.

So i think IF it was not a Space Suit then it more likely is a Bio-Mechanical Organism like the Xenomorph (see Concept below) rather than a Elephantine Organic Creature (See Image Below).

But i can see WHY people think it is a Skeleton... i think IF we reveal the Space Jockey to be different, then it would be more fitting if it is a Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph is rather than a Skeleton of some Organism that Once had Flesh Covering its Bones.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-10-2018 8:57 AM

"I still believa the Space Jockey is a different,  possibly higher race to the engineers. "

I think the route they was taking was the Space Jockey is just a Suit and inside is a Engineer.... this was prior to Alien Covenant as at this time the Space Jockey was a Ancient Event..

The Space Jockey Suits in Prometheus look more closer to the Space Jockey Concept Works, than a Skeleton...

There are a FEW anomalies that are left from Prometheus and its reveal about the Engineers and their Bio-Technology.

1) The Size Difference... the Space Jockey would be about 12-13ft Tall if we assume same Proportions of the Suit Upper Half in comparison to our Prometheus ones. We have to remember the Space Jockey Prop is about 16ft Across and we have to take into account the Chair is within that too, the angle of the CHAIR and where the Legs/Feet would go does leave it open for the Space Jockey to be Taller than what would fit in the remaining 14 Ft of the Prop though.  Which leaves us to Estimate the Space Jockey as between 12-15ft.    When working on Jon Spaights Alien Engineers it was revealed the Engineers/Space Jockey as 15ft Tall... when working on Prometheus Draft (Damien Lindeloff's Paradise) this was revised to 12 FT. 

The Problem arose by not using any Special Effects to Portray our Engineers as 10ft+  beings.. this leaves it OPEN for people to debate the Space Jockey/Engineers are not the Same Race.

2) The Color of the Space Jockey compared to the Engineers Suits... this is potentially the bigger FLAW because we are shown those Dead Engineers are 2000 years old yet they look similar to the Pristine Space Jockey suits in the Dark Grey Color.  So the Space Jockey suit would have to have been there for MUCH MUCH longer to Discolor/Bleach to the Bone-Like Color we got in ALIEN.

This leaves it open to Ponder if the Suit is not only Larger, but also a different Color.... unless the Space Jockey has been there for Tens/Hundreds of Thousands of Years, which RS had revealed it HAD-NOT but now with the path of Alien Covenant are we being led to the FACT the Space Jockey is NOT on LV-426 by the events of Alien Covenant in the year 2105?

This again leaves it open to consider could the Space Jockey be revealed as different to the Engineers.

3) Aesthetic Differences there are a few differences in the Space Jockey Suit compared to Engineers suits, which are not related to Size or Color... these are Proportions, the Space Jockey Suit looks a bit more Skeletal, but its Proportions are different.   

The ARMS are longer in comparison, the HEAD is smaller and more sunk in comparison, the SHOULDERS are more Broader, and the RIBCAGE (upper Body) is Wider and Longer/Taller in comparison.

But ALL of these could be put down to a Oversight that is IRRELEVANT they can be explained away to some degree.

Dallas is NO Expert on Biology and what he had Discovered is TRULY ALIEN he  made TWO Assumptions with the Space Jockey.

1) It looks Fossilized, Bones Bent Outwards indicating he thought it was a Fossil/Skeletal Remains.

2) Its looks like its Grown out of the Chair.

He may have been WRONG with the First One, but could he be RIGHT with the Second?  A reveal of the Suits Growing and Mutating could explain the differences in Size/Proportion and Color of the Space Jockey Suits compared to our Engineers.   So his 2ND Assumption could be used as a way to explain away the inconsistencies.

I HOWEVER do hope we get a reveal of another Race, i hope they either Stick with the Space Suit but make the occupant Taller and Less Human, or Reveal a Bio-Mechanical being as what the Space Jockey is.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

Oct-10-2018 11:07 AM

With Prometheus the "last engineer" was revealed to wear a bio-mechanical suit virtually identical to the appearance of the Space Jockey in Alien to pilot the Juggernaut, a biomechanical spacecraft virtually identical to the derelict craft the Space Jockey "landed" on LV-426.

This simple comparison alone infers that the technology of the Juggernaut is neither Engineer nor Space Jockey and that the biomechanical "flight suit" that comes from the pilot's chair is able to adapt any size of pilot.

If we view the Juggernauts as living biomechanical organisms, the purpose of the chair and its flight suit would be symbiotic in nature (think Farscape's Moya), whereas the aesthetic appearance of the Juggernauts, their apparent purpose (to carry Xenomorph cargo), and Gigers mural (mentioned by BigDave) heavily suggests the Juggernauts are of the Xenomorph race.

In addition to this, if we look at the makeup of the Black Pathogen - a nano-AI-virus, and its apparent effects in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, which seems to mutate anything it contaminates with Xenomorph traits (Fifield's original mutation, the Hammerpedes acidic blood, the neomorph spore sacs, the Deacon etc.). This seems to suggest that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are being coerced into spreading the Xenomorph onto viable worlds.

All of this heavily suggests, to me at least that the Xenomorph is not a weapon, nor a creation but the prime antagonist of the franchise, the dark gods at the top of the hierarchy, as the mural in Prometheus would seem to suggest. 

We have also assumed that if unleashed on a viable world the Xenomorph would eventually exhaust its supply of hosts and die off, leaving only their eggs. Considering how adaptive the Xenomorph appears to be and the makeup of the Black Pathogen, maybe or assumption was misconceived. What if, when the supply of external hosts run low the Xenomorph is able to propagate by other means (a King Alien maybe) and as the length of their occupation grows unimpeded the newly born Xenomorphs become less feral and aggressive (much like the idea not implemented in Alien), becoming intelligent, sentient - the aforementioned dark gods, and the original, true Xenomorphs.

BigDave

Oct-11-2018 6:47 AM

"All of this heavily suggests, to me at least that the Xenomorph is not a weapon,"

If we go by your theory in you last post Gavin, then indeed it would make the Original Juggernauts (Derelict) basically just the same Covenant Ship.   Where we simply Swap   Walter/Space Jockey and Embryo's/Eggs

This does not appear to be the case due to the continuing nature of the Franchise as far as how it changes things as it goes along.... The Status Quo  since ALIEN until the Prequels was these are BIO-WEAPONS where the Question was WHAT relationship are they to the Space Jockey?  is he on a Military Mission and they are his Bio-Weapon Cargo? If so WHY and who are his Race in Conflict with.

There was enough ambiguity to look at the Xenomorph as the Weyland-Yutani Company did in that it could be used as a BIO-WEAPON and so it means we could ponder if the Space Jockey had actually discovered it and saw its potential as a Weapon rather than to actually had Purposely Created it as such. 

The Prequels began to answer this... which i will make a Topic Soon about, in that it had given us this Creators/Gods Plot, but then how these Creators then wanted to Destroy is and the Xenomorph was ONE of the Weapons they would use... it was indicated in Alien Engineers, these Engineers maybe discovered something (they did not Create) and used this as Experiments to Create various Xenomorph Organisms.

Prometheus changed this a little, only as far as to make it a bit more ambiguous and then we continued with Alien Covenant with a somewhat U-TURN in the Space Jockey Event and Creation of the the Eggs.  Which i think has NOT settled well with the MAJORITY of Fans..

Which now brings me back to your post GAVIN...

So we arrive at a point now where the whole reveals and story behind the Xenomorph and Engineers, is JUST NOT anywhere near as Surreal of Alien as most would have been thinking about before the Prequels got made.

A Plot Similar to what you have mentioned, is also something that matches what potentially HR Gigers Concept work for Alien had.... and also links to the Original Idea about our STARBEAST from the Original idea by Dan O'Bannon that lead to ALIEN

The Concept works for Prometheus/Alien Engineers are NOT Canon as we have not been directly shown these Engineers discovering some Alien Organism that Does-not resemble the HR Giger works or anything from ALIEN but does resemble a few things shown in the Concept work for STARBEAST

This leaves it open to EXPLORE a Plot more related to STARBEAST and indeed one of the ideas i had for how i was going to handle Prometheus 2/3 which would be similar to what you have put GAVIN ;)

Introduction of a ALIEN Race that is Intelligent but FAR more ALIEN than we can comprehend as far as Appearance and Technology.   That have Created the Original Bio-Mechanical Ships, where they USE Humanoid beings in a Symbiotic Relationship but then we can wonder WHAT does these Pilots gain from this?

There are a number of theories and Mythos that suggest Mankind was created by the Gods purely to Serve, to be used for Labor and in Return we get some limited Knowledge passed on and allowed to live somewhat Civilized Lives.....  other Sci-Fi related plots that show the Egyptian Gods created/used Mankind for the same Purpose. (Inc Star Gate Series).  THIS could fit with the Prometheus Plot and Philosophy  and we see David/Walter are created to Serve...   and so this THEME/PLOT could extend all the way to the Ancestors of the Engineers, being used as Symbiotic beings to help the STARBEAST Procreate its Species.  At some point these Slave Race Rebel and Overthrow their would be STARBEAST Gods... and then pursue their own Creation Agenda leading to the Engineers.

so with this REVEAL we could go back to giving a more ALIEN twist to the Franchise while still keeping with the Prometheus Theme/Ethos

I think the Xenomorph has to be accepted as a Creation, and the Deacon also as another Creation from the Black Goo and what ever.....   But i think it leaves it open to INTRODUCE that there was a Related Organism that shares a lot of Aesthetic with the Xenomorph and that this Organism is Ancient/Advanced and somewhat Civilized, but their Agenda/Purpose would seem Sinister to Mankind...   But maybe their Purpose is NOT Sinister just Natural... 

When we Fish the Millions and Millions of Fish we consume, when we keep Chickens and kill them to consume are we consider CRUEL because we are killing another Life-Form?

So indeed i feel going this route would be a WAY FORWARD it then opens up the avenue to see HOW the ancestors to the Engineers came to be.

*A Race Created by these STARBEAST Gods?

*A Organism Discovered but then Engineered/Evolved to become the more Intelligent Ancestors of the Engineers by these STARBEAST Gods?

*A Organism Discovered that were very Primitive like Cave-men that had the Potential become the more Intelligent Ancestors of the Engineers by the teachings of these STARBEAST Gods?

*A Race who were Dying on a Dying World, that were SAVED by these  STARBEAST Gods?

Which ever of the ABOVE the Ancestors of the Engineers, could have then OWED the STARBEAST Gods a LIFE-DEBT and this would be the requirement of them to Serve them to AID with the STARBEASTS Procreation.

This revealed as the Ancient Past and Origins would bring back that little something VERY ALIEN that we had in ALIEN that has been Lost during the Prequels.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-11-2018 6:59 AM

There is a potential Problem with what i have put though, which also applies to your idea Gavin...

If we look at the GOO as having a Purpose to Pass on Xenomorph-like Traits, then we have a Conflict with the SACRIFICIAL GOO i have viewed the GOO just as its indicated in Jon Spaights work (Scarabs) i am also drawn to some Engineers coming into contact with something related to the Xenomorph and they witnessed something similar to the Xenomorph Born from a Engineer who came into contact with a related Organism (they did not create) they became obsessed with this Organism (makes more sense in context to Alien Engineers where our Engineers lost the ability to Procreate/Give Birth to Life) and thus the MURAL was them Worshiping something they Sacrificed to Create the Black Goo...

HOWEVER.... if we Ignore the above and run with a idea like you Propose GAVIN, then we have to explain the Sacrificial Goo..   which then Logically i think we could consider the Engineers Ancestors ONCE they broke away from the Bondage of their STARBEAST Masters... began to then Re-Engineer their Technology (Derelicts) and Managed to Unlock the Secrets of the Black Goo and CREATE a alternative Version that would obtain/use Engineer DNA instead of Xenomorph/Starbeast DNA

for the Purpose of Created Life in their image.... maybe eventually Humans, and we could Ponder then.... Was we being created as Bio-Weapons/Army that could be used by the Engineers against their STARBEAST Masters should they Return?

This certainly could unfold into a Multiple WAR OF THE WORLDS Scenario..  would make Humans the WOLF of the Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-12-2018 9:08 AM

The STARBEAST Plot would be kind of interesting to explore if we introduce a History where there was some Ancient Organism based of the STARBEAST that are Civilized but require a HOST to Procreate.

The STARBEAST has a very FLAWED method of Procreation (if we go only by the Starbeast Draft) for it requires a Host to Procreate.... ONCE all Hosts are used up, then it is only a matter of TIME before this Species becomes Extinct... If we assume they are NOT Immortal.

This ties to Davids Comments in the ADVENT Viral... that sometimes you need to Give Life to the WOLF and the LAMB.  If we look at this in context to the STARBEAST

A Civilized Organism like the Starbeast that has a Life-Cycle where it REQUIRES a other Organism as a Vessel to Gestate and Procreate from within... a HOST would require to GIVE LIFE to these Hosts... because ONCE they run out then its only a matter of time before the Starbeast becomes EXTINCT... well Dormant... until a unsuspecting Organism stumbles upon their Eggs/Spores.

This is what happens in STARBEAST but without any of its own Adult Kind to raise and nurture the Starbeast, it relies on Natural Instincts which is to SURVIVE and Feed and Procreate.

If we INTRODUCE a Ancient Race that would resemble the Starbeast, then it leaves it open to have the Engineers Ancestors to be a Organism these Starbeasts deemed Suitable for the use of a HOST

We then need to look at these STARBEASTS  and ask Are they a Race who have Mastered Space Travel ?

Because if they HAVE NOT then then are confined to their Homeworld, where they would have to use suitable Organisms Native to this World as Hosts!  For this Race to had become Civilized and able to build Temples/Pyramids they would have to have been around for a considerable time and this means their Homeworld would have had a ample supply of Host Organisms to allow them to Procreate and Survive for Thousands or Millions or years.

For a Race such as this, they would have had to have had access to plenty of Hosts at some point... ONCE these Hosts start to be used up, then for this Race you would ASSUME they would GIVE LIFE to some Hosts... because they would NEED their Hosts to also Procreate and Survive or else the STARBEAST race would become Extinct (well Dormant).

HOWEVER.... if these STARBEASTS had been able to Travel the Stars then they would be able to seek out Worlds to find more Hosts for the Procreation of their Species.

We now come to the QUESTION... does the type of HOST make a difference?  In Alien we see the Xenomorph can take Traits of its HOST.  But in regards to introducing a Ancient Star Beast like Race... then we have to ask does the HOST make a massive difference?

This Race can go on to develop and become Civilized, they would likely have a Ritualistic Approach to their Birthing Rituals (if we base them off the Star Beast) and so would a Starbeast Born from a COW grown to be as intelligent as that from a HUMANOID?

If the Intelligence and type of HOST has a massive impact on how Intelligent the Star Beast would become, then it would be ideal for them to seek out a PERFECT Host, or maybe even Engineer a PERFECT Host.

So If this Species, seeks out and either Discover a Humanoid or Create One, or a combination of both (Discover a Species and Engineer/Evolve it) so they end up USING a Race Related to the Engineers for their Procreation Rituals..  Then we arrive at this Scenario..

Such a ideal Intelligent (or potentially) Species would have the Potential of becoming Sentient and wishing to live by its own means and NOT be willing to be used as Sacrifices. Maybe unless their is some BENEFIT to this species to be used as HOSTS..

The Problem with say using Humans as Hosts would be unless a VERY Ritualistic/Religious Agenda can be imposed on these Humanoids where they see the Starbeast as the Gods and the Occasional Sacrifice is in Honor of their Gods or Benefit to their own kind.... (Giving Life to the Lamb and Wolf)  Would be the Potential to REBEL against being Forced to be used as HOSTS..  Lets look at how these Starbeast could use Humanoid Hosts and Procreate them..

1) Keep them imprisoned in Pens/Cages like we would with say Battery Kept Chickens but these Humanoids would be Unhappy and Suffering with these Conditions and their is the Potential they would TRY to escape  and be FREE.... now for Chickens this is NO worry, but for a Intelligent Species that can Procreate this could be a Problem for those keeping these Humanoids as HOSTS

2) Keep these Hosts in some kind of City, Land and give them Freedom, Buildings, Food and allow them to Live their Lives in some kind of Freedom... BUT then have them subjected to a Ritual/Religion where they see you as their Creators/Gods and that the Sacrificial Requirement is required now and again and is of Great Benefit to them, be brainwashing them with a Religious/Ritualistic Doctrine.   The Problem is that again Rebellion could set in if some of the Humanoid Hosts object, or DISCOVER the Truth.

3) As above, but Do-Not reveal the Nature of the Sacrifice, have these Humanoid Hosts believe that Now and Again the Chosen Few are taken away for some Great Purpose and Unaware of what this is... but certainly they have NO IDEA they are needed as Hosts for their Masters... This is kind of similar PLOT to the Movie  The Island and this kind of Method keeps your Hosts in a State of Contempt, and Excitement and Bliss of being Chosen and reduces this Host Species from Rebelling or getting Out of Control.... 

Until some of them Discover the TRUTH!

Scenario 2/3 would be more Ideal if these Starbeasts keep their Hosts on another World... so IF they become AWARE of their Purpose and Rebel, then you can take care of them.  If they are kept on the same WORLD as the Starbeasts then there is the Risk of them Discovering the Truth, Rebelling, Escaping and Overthrowing their Masters.

A PLOT like this could be applied to a STARBEAST Race and the Ancestors of the Engineers, where the Ancestors gain Freedom from their Starbeast Masters... and with NO Hosts their Masters will eventually DIE off and leave the Engineers Ancestors as those who Inherent all the Knowledge and Technology of their Would-Be False Gods and Imprisoners.

This PLOT could also related to between Engineers and Humans instead.

The other OPTION is..

4) The Humanoid Hosts are Grown/Kept in some kind of Pods, like the MATRIX which we then have to ask does the STARBEAST only need our Psychical Body or would the HOSTS need to not be BRAIN-DEAD and so they would need to be kept in some Stasis where their Brains are Active, in some state of SLEEP or maybe some kind of MATRIX REALITY?

So indeed IF we explored a Ancient Race as the Origins of the Xenomorph DNA and Bio-Mechanical Technology/Biology then they would ideally NEED to have the Ideal Hosts and a means to allow their Hosts to Procreate but also be subdued in some way so they cant be a Threat to Rebellion.

The introduction of SUCH a PLOT would allow us to bring in something more ALIEN something more Bio-Mechanical, and also use the Plot of STARBEAST while also keeping with the Themes and Philosophy of PROMETHEUS.

This PLOT is what i was aiming at with my Eventual Conclusion to how i was to tackle Prometheus Sequels.. well it would have been revealed at the end of my Prometheus 3 and left it open to Explore in a 4th Movie.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Oct-12-2018 10:30 AM

BigDave where do we see the xenomorph takes traits of its host?

The runner from Alien 3 can be expelled from the cannon, no matter how interesting it is.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

Oct-12-2018 11:28 AM

@ daliens,

Why would we expel the runner Alien from Alien 3 from canon, Alien 3, as with Aliens (and sadly Alien Resurrection) are all canon installments of the franchise.

@ BigDave,

I fear you are overthinking everything and trying to imprint all of the lore into one cohesive narrative. While I commend your efforts, such an endeavor will only ever result in madness.

My own, somewhat simplistically explained assertions come from what is canon, which is what we see in the movies.

To help bring this thread back on track, what the films show us is that the Engineers are human, frequently use primitive technology, have visited earth during our history and have access to Juggernauts.

Their genetic links to us are undeniable. The question is whether they are our creators or merely a community of our ancestors that were granted sanctuary elsewhere (Planet 4). Prometheus' opening scene would seem to suggest the former, but beyond their access to the Juggernauts there is no evidence that they are an advanced race, yet there is overwhelming evidence that they are primitive (tech, language, lifestyle). As for the aforementioned scene, remember that it does not state that the planet is Earth, or that the life formed from the Engineers sacrifice is anything other than what the rest of the movie dictates - It is highly possible, and likely that said Engineer was sacrificing himself to seed a planet full of Xenomorph life.

 

Despite their primitive nature and human heritage as likely Neolithic humans, the remaining question about the Engineers is their evidently different (to us) appearance.

I believe this was likely achieved by having neolithic humans used as hosts for a world occupied by the Xenomorphs, which using my King Alien theory (lack of hosts sees a sexually active male that can inseminate Queens enabling the production of eggs incubating a sub-species of hosts) results into genetically optimized humans AKA the Engineers as said hosts.

As for the different appearances in the Engineers, I believe the Last Engineer and his brethren on LV-223 were augmented by the Juggernauts to be able to pilot them through a symbiotic connection though passive role in the chair, whereas the Engineers on Planet 4 are those granted sanctuary and paradise in return for their services to the Juggernauts - destroy your homeworld and others in return for a small patch in paradise.

As for the Juggernauts, it appears their goal is to spread the Xenomorph far and wide, with the Sacrificial Engineer likely sacrificing themselves amidst some delusions of misguided religious grandeur.

As for the Xenomorphs themselves, I believe what we have seen is merely the front line of the species, the first wave. I believe that somewhere amidst the many worlds and many galaxies (possibly even universes) they have subjugated the true dark gods watch and wait.

I believe eons ago an ancient race achieved immortality through biomechanics and transformed themselves into the Xenomorphs - a seemingly feral and deadly parasitoid species that when left unchecked propagates beyond its seemingly restrictive life cycle and is able to birth advanced biomechanical technology (Juggernauts) and through the coding embedded in their AI-Nano-Virus makeup, able to resurrect their sentient and intelligent former selves.

The weapon is not a tool created by the enemy; it IS the enemy.

daliens

Oct-12-2018 1:23 PM

" There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

Thinking again about Prometheus,  Covenant,  Advent. Honestly speaking, I don't see any connection between engineers and xenomorph and Space Jockey even with all the display of the refurbished Juggernaut. 

What I understand from Advent :

* The engineers were Creators, like Gods.

They created the black goo, that was the secret of their godliness (So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI).

* That black goo had both the attributes: to destroy (the wolf) and give life (the ooze ingested by the sacrificial lamb while seeding other planets).

* Their belief implied the supreme sacrifice as a form of repentance  (They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. )

* At some moment in time (at least 2,000 years ago) they renounced this belief and decided to abandon space travels and live a simple, ascetic life within the confines of their home world.

* The black goo was now regarded as evil and its use forbidden (they tried to banish the wolf). David despises them for this decision (There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might.)

* Following a decision of the Great Council of the Elders, the engineers from LV223 were sent to cleanse the worlds that were seeded (undo their creation). Their return home would be welcome by all as a guaranty that any trace of the now infamous past was erased and the new age of peace and harmony could go on undisturbed. 

* Unfortunately an accident prevented the LV223 engineers to fulfill their sacred mission and the long awaited return of their ship was in fact bringing a derailed android and the wolf.

* The mural in Prometheus was a splendiferous easter egg

* The Deacon was the cherry for the xenomorph fans that ate all the cake (I felt it like a foreign body, not belonging in that film).

* Nobody could ever reasonably explain (except if they were smuggled for the black market) the thousands of eggs on an engineer ship (the derelict from Alien) - how were they made, how were they loaded, why they were needed as weapons since they had the urns full of black goo that proved capable of killing all flesh on planet 4.

* If the xenomorph was not a species in itself, I don't see how or why anybody except Dan O’Bannon / H.R. Giger could have imagined / created it. 

* In conclusion I think the only chance of this beautiful beast is to return as the Starbeast.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

Oct-12-2018 11:53 PM

Gavin

I would have expelled the runner Alien from Alien 3 from canon because it is the first attempt to show that the xenomorph takes traits from its host, thus creating a threat to its perfection. Whatever host it uses, the xenomorph should maintain its purity. We've seen it downgraded in every film, from the biomechanic looks of the Big Chap to the protomorph in Covenant that was banging its head against anything.

I like your interpretation of the Engineer sacrificing himself to seed a planet full of xenomorph life. It could open a new perspective and establish the connection between engineers and xenomorphs, connection that is missing so far. And it might do to the xenomorph some justice. I remember a deleted scene from Alien when the Big Chap was stalking Brett and moved like performing a strange ritual before it grabbed its victim. And the Big Chap had the egg morphing thing too. Big Chap was not a bug, you see JC?

Coming back to your interpretation of Juggernauts and their goal to spread the Xenomorph far and wide, this would mean the engineers are totally submissive to the xenomorph if they help spreading their seeds across the universe, not only sacrificing themselves for the ones already waiting a host. More xenomorph require more hosts. But why destroy the Earth when they can get a good harvest of hosts from it. In this case would have been more plausible to send the derelict full of eggs to Earth instead of the load of black goo.

I'd like to start it all over from the Starbeast, even with engineers as the link between the humans and the xenomorph. 

I'd like to see as well what Ridley Scott has in store for a sequel to Covenant. Who knows how kind a world would be Origae 6?

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

dk

Oct-13-2018 12:07 AM

There is also the fact that everything appears bigger to pre teen kids in space suits ;)

Gavin

Oct-13-2018 3:48 AM

@daliens,

you are almost there, almost...

Sending either the black goo or eggs to Earth ultimately ends with the same result - a planet overwhelmed and then occupied by the Xenomorphs, which over time using the King theory I mentioned sees Earth become another world claimed and controlled by the Xenomorphs.

In Alien we had an egg morphing (egg silo), in Aliens we had an egg laying Alien (collapsed arm), in Covenant we had alien spore sac's (carpet bombed black goo) - whose to say that their reliance on hosts isn't but a temporary element of their lifecycle. If we view drones and warriors as infertile males and females is it not plausible that when needed a hive of Aliens would produce a fertile male to help prevent the hive from failing, which in turn would secure the Xenomorphs hold on the planet allowing the safe rebirth of the true Xenomorphs, the original intelligent ones (see my last comment).

As for your comments towards the mural, as mentioned in another thread the mural is more than just a Giger inspired Easter egg - it depicts the Xenomorph rising from (or floating in) a pool of black goo, with clear depictions of the Trilobite/Facehugger beneath. In layman's terms, it is saying that the Xenomorph comes from the black goo (hence David cannot have created something that already existed). The Xenomorphs pose in the mural is also no accident - the Engineers worship the Xenomorph, it is their dark god, it is their salvation (planet 4, the Juggernauts), and they are forever bound to it (LV-223, sacrificial Engineer), hence the name Covenant.

However, I do feel that I have to address your comments against James Cameron's sequel. Scott (and O'Bannon too, I believe) state in the making of Alien documentary that the inspiration for the Aliens use of hosts came from a parasitoid wasp, and that the Big Chap was viewed as an insect, a bug. When Cameron made Aliens some fans backlashed, citing he had reduced the Alien to dumb ass bugs. In Alien Big Chaps behavior and actions can be entirely explained using parallels found in animal behavior (establishes a nest, secures its offspring and then eliminates all remaining threats). It does not rape Lambert (those are Brett's feet, lazy editing decision #3) as Parker's body is also ravaged in a similar fashion, and Big Chap shows no signs of intelligence beyond using Jonesy as bait. In Aliens, yes many are killed by the marines weapons (which the Nostromo's crew did not have) but despite this, the Aliens turn off the power and outmaneuver the marines, while later on the Queen operates an elevator - signs of intelligence. Cameron added to the franchise, but beyond the genetic trait idea in Alien 3 Giler (not Fincher, as he left before production finished and has since disowned the movie) reduced the Alien back to its primal, animalistic nature, which as you point out has just been echoed ever since.

As for genetic purity - I refer back to the black pathogen, which took the DNA of whatever it contaminated and reordered it as per the Xenomorph template held within the AI-Nano-Virus. It is my belief that the Facehugger behaves in the same way - implanting an embryo (Chief Medical Officers report - Aliens), which then takes the DNA of its host and reorders it in the same way inside said embryo - thus the Alien could acquire traits from its host. This also means that reordering aside Big Chaps DNA was human -  an analogy for being the tool of our destruction maybe?

 

In a way Scott was right the beast is cooked; as it is, as a primal, animalistic monster. For the beast to survive it has to evolve and adapt, become more threatening, intelligent, sentient - a la Starbeast.

Alien lazy editing decision #1 - see DK's post above

Alien lazy editing decision #2 - see below

This insert was unnecessary, and the scene would have worked better without it. Also, take note that for Big Chap to fit in such a tight space it would have been sat on its tail -, it cannot move freely and thus poses no threat, while the pose held looks like the Alien is asking for help, being stuck et al.

daliens

Oct-13-2018 6:57 AM

We've seen in Alien Resurrection that xenomorphs' reliance on hosts isn't but a temporary element of their lifecycle, when the queen gave birth to that monstrosity, but the queen had its DNA mixed with that of Ripley's. I do not like that outcome that's why I say the xenomorph need not the DNA of its hosts. Didn't they used cows as hosts in Starbeast, without the risk of growing an udder?

I like to keep it as a perfect organism with acid for blood and taking traits from its host does not mean evolution (it is already perfect).

Instead of drones, kings and queens I would have liked it more that they were hermaphrodites, Giger probably had that in mind and I know Ridley Scott wanted it to have some feminine traits.  But i'd also like to keep the need of consensual host as the absolute must of their survival. The birth of the xenomorph should be a stellar event, its first cry be heard and feared by all across the universe.

About the mural: if it is saying that the xenomorph comes from the black goo that was created by engineers, then the xenomorph is merely a weapon not something to be worshipped. They shoud have worshipped the black goo, and I believe they did until they banished it. There was no other reference to the scene from the mural, so I guess it is an easter egg meant to keep us talking about it forever.

I did not hear those comment from Ridley Scott about the parasitoid wasp but he was referring to the fact that the facehugger used the same method as the wasp to implant its own eggs into a living host body. He never said xenomorph is a big  bug.

What JC did instead: he multiplied so much the xenomorphs that each individual has become insignificant. He has come up with a giant ant queen to explain the eggs (this is the part I hate most), reducing the xenomorphs even more, to drones. From a self-sufficient egg morphing Big Chap to an army of canon meat drones, I prefer the former. As for the signs of intelligence you mention (the Aliens turn off the power and outmaneuver the marines, while later on the Queen operates an elevator) to me they are similar to the use of english translating machine by the ultimate predator in the latest hit of Shane Black. That is way below xenomorph potential and fans expectations.

And Gavin, please tell me if you don't feel insulted by the airlock scene at the end of Aliens, when Ripley opens the airlock without a suit and helmet and holds herself and the heavy weight queen by one arm only, luckily she lost the sneaker, and with it the queen, into deep space.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BioDegradable

Oct-13-2018 8:25 AM

If I may, in order to corroborate certain aspect, can somebody explain the title of the Prometheus. The myth. Whose actions are Promethean? And how?

 

This is not a trick question, I just suspect that this is actually not as trivial and actually needs to be grounded.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Oct-13-2018 5:05 PM

@Gavin

I can see where you are coming from and INDEED the whole Path/Puzzle that we are now likely heading for (Upset/Crazed Android with a God Complex Creates the Xenomorph by using some Bio-Weapon Mutagen our Would-Be CREATORS had intended for us), is certainly not as ALIEN as our Imaginations may have Pondered in the 80's and 90's or indeed even when the NEWS broke that we would be getting a PREQUEL..

My ideas i was proposing may have been a little LONG-WINDED so here is a Short Version ;)

I think the Engineers may-not be everyone's Cup of Tea especially the Planet 4 Engineers  it seems we are steering towards something far less HR Giger i think that we can Question where the Engineers got their Bio-Technology from and Secrets... the reveal of Planet 4 is NOTHING like what the the Surreal Derelict looked like, with Alien Covenant our Engineers look more Questionable as these Would-Be GODS that Prometheus had alluded too.

When we look at HR Gigers Mural

It seems to indicate something related to the Xenomorph via some like Worm-like Organism... Produces the Eggs and the Xenomorph like Depiction appears to resemble the Derelict  and we see some Space Suited Bi-Pedal Beings (not dissimilar to the Space Jockey) Self Sacrificing ONE of themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph

I think going back to some of HR Gigers ideas/concepts and going back to the STARBEAST to introduce a NEW Species that have FORMED some kind of Symbiotic Covenant with the STARBEAST or are being Enslaved to Perform these Rituals or Brainwashed to do this for some Religious/Ritual Purpose is something we should CONSIDER... if we can get back to something more ALIEN

The STARBEAST would require HOSTS and maybe for some reason they have Chosen Humanoids to be these IDEAL Hosts..  So i was thinking about WHY would the STARBEAST seem to form some kind of Relationship with these Humanoids, instead of using any HOST and also ASK what do these Humanoids Gain and for what Reason would they be WILLING to Sacrifice themselves or are they NOT so Willing?

So indeed introducing some that Genetically well that shares the Aesthetic of the Xenomorph as some more like GOD Power/Race that had Enslaved/Used the Engineers or their Elders to Procreate their own STARBEAST Species is something i think would be ideal and more ALIEN

I think this is more fitting with STARBEAST and HR Gigers Surreal Concepts.   The STARBEAST does-not have to be the Xenomorph but it should share some Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic, the STARBEAST should be the ones behind the Original Derelict ships and the Black Goo

The Engineers revealed as Rebelling (or a Faction) and Stealing the Technology could be brought in to fit with the whole PROMETHEUS Mythos.

So your ideas about the Xenomorph Spreading by the Derelict/Juggernauts as some Master Race Plot, is kind of similar and i can picture this kind of thing had been happening throughout the Galaxy or Galaxies...

But i think we have to Wonder where have these STARBEAST or Xenomorphs been? In context to our Planet Earth and the Galaxy Mankind has Explored...  If the Engineers play such a LESSER Role as only being used/ordered by these Xenomorphs... then we have to wonder why the Destruction of Earth/Seeding Xenomorphs was abandoned and our Planet 4 Engineers had not continued with this..

The VASTNESS of Space could be used to explain in part this..  a theory/idea as you have GAVIN is interesting as it would suggest the Galaxy is Infested with Xenomorphs they are busy Procreating on Many Many Worlds, that Mankind has only Delayed the Inevitable Time when those in POWER Return and have Questions for what the HELL has happened to the Plans for Earth, LV-223 and those Engineers on Planet 4.

I think we definitely need something more ALIEN than our very Humanoid Engineers, where the Xenomorph is just a Evolution of a Weapon those Engineers Created to use on Unruly/Disappointing Creations.

I think HOWEVER... there is scope to introduce something ALIEN but a little different than Xenomorphs, because and this is just my Opinion i think the Xenomorphs/Queens have been done to death a bit and been diluted down, that maybe something a it different is required.... but maybe a REVEAL about the Xenomorphs being more Intelligent and creating their own Various Space Ships and other kinds of Bio-Mechanical Technology could work?

It is HOWEVER a Plot that had been STOLEN and covered by the Warhammer 40K Universe TYRANIDS but maybe something like this could work?  I mean those Tyranids did use Bald Humanoids as some kind of Cult (Broodcoven) that Follow and Assist their Bio-Mechanical Masters... even as far as Sacrificing themselves and also becoming Hybrids.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-13-2018 5:41 PM

@Gavin

I will add that indeed despite what ever RS has said, the Movies Dont-Show us that these Engineers are Highly Advanced, well there is nothing to suggest they are GIFTED the use of this Technology by other BEINGS..  and so anything can be explored or Changed...  and so you MAKE a interesting point regarding the Sacrificial Scene.

By virtue of watching the Movies alone... this Scene is not SPOON-FED explained that its how the Engineers Seeded Worlds to create Mankind.    So it COULD be a Engineer Seeding himself to Spread the Black Goo onto a World..

I would ask WHY not use the Juggernauts though?  A explanation was they became a latter more Efficient way to Spread the Xenomorph, and the Sacrificial Scene was set Many Many years before the Juggernaught Technology.

@daliens

Many other works in the Franchise which include Comics have hinted the Xenomorph does take on some of the Traits of the Host, we even see the AVP Franchise use this with the PREDALIEN, be it the Movie, Games or Comics. 

The Runner did Evolve/Grow into something that had more of a Bi-Pedal Stance though, the movie uses a combination of Effects inc Puppets, CGI and the Man in a Suit... at which the Man in a Suit looks much more like our Alien/Aliens Xenomorphs... so maybe as they GROW they revert back to the Bi-Pedal Xenomorph appearance.

"But why destroy the Earth when they can get a good harvest of hosts from it"

Gavin had answered that for you, and indeed we could assume the Black Goo Bombardment would Destroy Life but from this would RISE new life that is connected to the Xeno-Virus just as the Neomorph Spores are.... as David said "sometimes to create one must first destroy"

I will add i have always found the Egg Cargo/Bomber explanation a bit of a Flawed Weapon as far as HOW we assume the Derelict Delivered its Pay-Load....  It is more Logical in LINE with a Theory Gavin has posted a few times, that they Harvest the Eggs from Worlds...  so the Black Goo is the SEED and the Eggs are the Harvest and so those Eggs are NOT being used to Bombard anyplace... they are being collected to be taken to some place.  I mean how would Eggs Survive being Dropped?  And taking them down one by one to a Hostile World does not make much Sense.  But taking them to a place where Sacrificial Hosts are obtained and Stored in some Place to Perform Rituals where Eggs are brought from the Ships and taken to a Sacrificial Chamber makes more sense.

"Nobody could ever reasonably explain (except if they were smuggled for the black market) the thousands of eggs on an engineer ship"

Its one of those things that has Changed over Time...

The Starbeast Plot was showing a Giant Alien Race had came across the Egg Pyramid and was taking samples back to their Derelict Ship. IF we took a continuation of that PLOT and said the Space Jockey was that Giant Race, then it would imply the Space Jockey had loaded up the Egg Cargo... before ONE got to him.   The Eggs Originating from a Separate Pyramid Complex and came as the Final Stage of the Starbeast Life Cycle... via a Egg-Morph.

HR Giger had envisioned that the Egg Silo/Cargo Hold actually Produced the Eggs via some Bio-Mechanical Pregnant Belly (indicated by his Mural) which was to be placed above the area these Bio-Mechanical Apparatus were located.

Ridley Scott kept things ambiguous only that the Egg Chamber as a Cargo Hold with NO indication of where those Eggs came from or HOW they got there, but that they was used as a Bio-Weapon by the Space Jockey Race.

After Prometheus he had informed us that the Egg Cargo is related to the Experiments on LV-223 and something had Evolved in the Cargo Hold... indicating they was a Evolution from the Black Goo or got there by something that had Evolved from the Black Goo.

But it now appears the IDEA is that before Davids Experiments on Planet 4, there was NO Eggs on the Derelict and we are on a Journey towards finding out HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict... where we require Davids Creation to EVOLVE a little and end up on a Engineer Ship that ends up in the Vicinity of LV-223. at some point in the next 17 Years after David places his Face Hugger Embryo's with the Human Ones on the Covenant.

And indeed that is maybe not the ideal route most fans would like to have seen.... maybe it can be changed?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-13-2018 6:03 PM

"I like to keep it as a perfect organism with acid for blood and taking traits from its host does not mean evolution (it is already perfect)."

It was ASH who claimed this, we see with Prometheus a theme of the Pursuit of Perfection, this does not mean gaining Perfection though.  In the Bible.. GOD refers to Lucifer as PERFECT and then Adam too... yet they both had Flaws, related to Knowledge and becoming Sentient.

If the Xenomorph was PERFECT it would not need a Host, it would not need a Queen.  I think the taking on Traits of a Host would make sense to allow a Organism to Adapt to what ever Environment it is required.   If we look at the Engineers as Genetic Space Gardeners, we could maybe assume they would be trying to Pursue Perfection, maybe this is what lead to their Fall and the LV-223 Engineers Bio-Technology which produced a undesired result a result maybe they then Worshiped?

It appears David was trying to incorporate whatever traits from various Organisms to Produce his desired Xenomorph.

Evolution is something that maybe NEVER stops, when a situation arrives where a Organism would need additional traits/mutations to Progress then these would occur over time.

So regarding the Xenomorph, i think yes at some-point we could see it Evolve to find another means of Procreation. I think the Imagination and Scope of the Beast allows us to introduce some very Interesting New Methods....  take the Neomorph for example...   WHY-NOT introduce a Xenomorph Evolution that can Directly infect a Host with a form of Procreation like the Neomorph Spores did? This would still not be Perfect as it still requires a Host.

"He never said xenomorph is a big  bug"

Ridley Scott has said and i think he also said this before Camerons Aliens... that the Xenomorph was designed and inspired by traits of Insects and also Reptilian it was a ALIEN Organism that had some traits of those but also very Human traits too.

The Queen makes sense as far as a Evolutionary Step to the Xenomorph, if we go by the DC Cut of ALIEN and Starbeast.  When i looked at the Egg Morph scene in ALIEN DC i felt it would be a more Logical way to Produce/Obtain a Queen.  I think a Queen makes sense, i also think we dont need any other Organisms to Evolve upon that such as a KING as i think a Queen that can Procreate without the need for any Fertilization of her Eggs makes a more PERFECT Procreation.

However... a Evolutionary KING like Organism that can directly infect Hosts with something that results in something like a Chest Buster or say like the Neomorph infection would be a Evolutionary Upgrade to the Egg => Face Hugger => Host => Chest Buster Cycle.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Oct-13-2018 9:20 PM

BigDave I don't see the point of having a queen and mass production of eggs, unless you see the xenomorphs like bugs and you need them by thousands for a shooting spree.

And after seeing The Predator I can associate the alien queen to the ultimate predator. Any movie that features a queen is a dumb movie with lots of xenomorphs as cannon meat, lots of bullets and dumb macho jokes in between shootings.

And if you say queen is evolution for xenomorph, what is that Predalien abomination?

The xenomorph does not need evolution, it is a biomechanical perfect organism. They may be not reproducing like rabbits, but who needs that?

A xenomorph that can insert a fertilized egg into the body of a living host and either immobilize the victim through egg morphing or just make it unaware, like Kane was after being facehugged, will manage without an egg laying queen.

I know David mentions a queen in Advent but I am pretty convinced it's a queen different from what we've seen so far.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

Oct-13-2018 9:46 PM

And BigDave maybe it's time to have a talk with the xenomorph, like David tried to tame the neomorph and imprint on the baby xeno. I think this need to see them as intelligent creatures, able to communicate was the reason to change the shape of the chestburster in Alien  Covenant. 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

Oct-13-2018 11:00 PM

@daliens,

Don't get me wrong. My assertions of Scott's mistakes in Aliens was not an inference that Cameron's film was flawless. The scene you mention in the airlock is, as you pointed out preposterous at best, as is the Queen fitting snuggly in the rear compartment of the drop-ship, or that some fans contest that these Marines were purposefully selected to fail, or Newts consistent ear-piercing screams.

I sense a deep detraction towards Aliens, and a great love towards Alien, which is, of course, your prerogative. But the adoption of genetic traits, a theme you seem to be against is evident in Alien. Big Chaps humanoid form is not only clearly acquired from its host, Kane, but the creature also features a human skull within its carapace. The adoption of genetic traits has been used questionably since (flying Aliens, gorilla Aliens etc.), but it was Ash who described it best when referring to the Facehuggers skin adapting to the environment. Additions to the base Xenomorph form such as the ability to breathe the native atmosphere, run faster, swim better etc. allow the Xenomorph to adapt and evolve. This has since been elaborated in Prometheus and Covenant, showing that the Xenomorph adaptive skills allow for other forms of propagation, of which the Queen route, though the most explored in mainstream media, is but one method - we have egg morphing, we have host born trilobites, we have contaminated fungal spores. The adoption of a host's or an ecosystems genetic traits allows for endless adaptive possibilities, exemplifying the creatures perfection.

It is my belief that the Jordens in Aliens did not find the Egg Silo Kane discovered, but instead found another cache of eggs within the derelict Juggernaut and that as such the Aliens were of a different "breed" than those within the Egg Silo.


@BigDave,

Following on from that point is where I feel the future of the franchise lies. The beast as we know it is cooked. A repeat of Alien and/or Aliens would be derivative, what audiences need is uncertainty, fear of the unknown. To achieve this within the Alien franchise the Beast need to adapt and evolve, cinematically at least.

One possibility could be that the host becomes the Xenomorph removing all need for chestbursters, as was originally Fifield's fate and was hinted at in some concept art (see above and below).

As for the larger picture, the overarching mythology maybe Scott should make a film about David, linking the Alien and Blade Runner franchises together, while a more capable director such as David Fincher (unlikely, I know), Guillermo del Toro or Denis Villeneuve should take on Paradise as a prequel to Covenant, and sequel to Prometheus - showing that before arriving at Planet 4 Shaw and David did indeed find their answers and that maybe Shaws demise was of her own design, not David's (loss of faith from learning the truth).

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