It certainly seems like there is some Cover Up and Conspiracy within the Franchise, i think this is a Intriguing Subject. And so covering such Cover Ups could be Interesting but at the Moment we are also in the DARK on such a Subject!
I think there is always the Possibility that A.I could be behind the Scenes, it seems Ridley Scott was interested in A.I and that the Sequel to Alien Covenant would be more about A.I and we have seen RS indicate about the Hubris of A.I and what THREAT that could pose to Mankind something that Steven Hawking had suggested could be our Down Fall!
In Context to A.I we saw RS also suggest that the Replicants are A.I and so we are NOT just confining this to Computers and Software... but the Hubris of Engineering, Tampering, Evolving and Experimenting with things and NOT leaving things to NATURE... and so Playing God can be a Hubris.
RS also had suggested the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and so we can Speculate if the LV-223 Engineers are Genetically Engineered Super Engineers, either Created/Engineered as a Slave Race/Combat Troops or if some Engineers had decided to Genetically Alter themselves.
So we have a Rebellion and Fall on our hands!
Looking at the Paradise Lost and those Images, they are Similar, and before we GOT our Sequel to Prometheus i had Speculated on here in 2012-2013 about the Fresco Image and Paradise Lost, in wondering was there a Rebellion and then ONE Faction had attempted to Punish/Destroy the other with something Horrific... which DID-NOT do the Job and lead those Fallen Engineers to then take this Punishment and Re-Engineer it to Create the Horrors on LV-223 that these Engineers then intend to use on Mankind and their own Creators/Brothers?
These were some of the Things i was going to indicate in my Prometheus Sequels i was working on in 2013-2014.
Regarding the PULLING UP of the Mountains!
Ridley Scott did indicate in 2015 about if the Engineers were the Forerunners of Mankind, then WHO was it that made Worlds become Habitable to Support Life in the First Place... were was the BIG GUY.
The Hierarchy/Creators of the Engineers could indeed possess some Technology that can MOLD and Terra-Form Worlds... and so Create Natural Disasters... of Various Kinds.
The Source i had from November 2014 had Claimed the Engineers Creators possessed Technology that could do this and this Technology is used to Terra-Form but also to Eradicate Life and that the Great Flood and Ice Age are but some USES of this Technology to Destroy!
So the Pulling Up Mountains could be some kind of World Manipulating Technology when we think about that, then Volcanic Activity can be seen as a kind of Pulling Up Mountains and Volcanic Activity is the MOST Destructive Natural Disaster we have on Earth.
If something could EFFECT and cause all the Active/Semi-Active Volcanoes in the World to GO OFF within a 24-48 Hour Period we would be in for a DISASTER of Biblical Proportions that would make the Suggested Asteroid Impact that KILLED off the Dinosaurs look like a Small Disaster in Comparison.
LV-426 has a lot of evidence of Volcanic and Seismic Activity, we could WONDER are these Influenced by some kind of Technology/Event long ago and if we Speculate that then WHY?
Again such things are something i had Pondered when trying to Expand the History of the Engineers and their Creators ;) It all came down to Cosmic Eggs ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I don't think Zeta II Reticuli is any near the shipping lanes between Earth and Thedus. Remember, the Nostromo was rerouted by MU-TH-UR to the Zeta II Reticuli system when it was on its return journey to Earth. If the derelict Juggernauts signal (and therefore Shaws signal and Davids Advent signal) was able to reach the Earth-Thedus shipping lane then surely the Nostromo would have picked up the signal before arriving at Thedus. It evidently did not."
According to the Weyland-Yutani Report, that's exactly what it did. The signal was originally believed to have come from a lost mapping satellite.
Z2R is not on any shipping lanes, but it is near the main route for Earth-Thedus. Cosmically speaking.
I don't believe Mother did any re-routing. Whoever put Ash on board did that.
And if David transmitted Advent only once then the Nostromo isn't going to pick it up (unlike the repeating Derelict signal). Shaw's LV-223 signal could've easily ceased by the time other ships were going past - transmitter power ran out or got wrecked by the weather. And the Network wasn't as established at that time. And it assumes Shaw set the message on repeat.
While I appreciate that you worked on the Weyland-Yutani report, in terms of canonicity it holds about as much weight as any of the speculation we have here or on any other fan-site. For me, and for us all (IMO) the movies are the only canon, and even then the information related towards us should be treated in contextual terms - for example the Space Jockey is not fossilized because Dallas said so, and David cannot create something that was recorded to have existed (Facehuggers on the mural on LV-223) at least 2000 years beforehand.
What we know happened pre-movie, from the movie and deleted scenes (are they canon too?) is this - Nostromo traveled from Earth to Thedus, at Thedus their science officer was replaced with Ash, the Nostromo tugged the ore refinery back toward Earth, the Nostromo was rerouted to Z2R.
This and the events of the movie dictate that the Nostromo was SENT (by whom, we can only speculate) to Z2R with the intent of obtaining a Xenomorph specimen, this was not an accident or a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"the Weyland-Yutani report, in terms of canonicity it holds about as much weight as any of the speculation we have here or on any other fan-site."
No it's not. And that is why we have a WY Report - that would abstract from fan theories.
"for example the Space Jockey is not fossilized because Dallas said so"
Yes it is! Dallas was a narrator is SJ scene. There are no his assumptions. Dallas conveys the author’s intention directly to the viewer. The Space Jockey is fossilised.
"and David cannot create something that was recorded to have existed (Facehuggers on the mural on LV-223) at least 2000 years beforehand"
I like this argument, but, tbh - facehuggers on the mural doesn't look like the classic. The maximum that we can assume is all the results of experiments with Black Slime give rise to many different forms of facehuggers and aliens. David created an Alien, but only his own version.
Yeah, there are no facehuggers on the mural on LV-223. There's an early Giger concept, that isn't the same as the one David created.
As for the Jockey - Dallas though it looked fossilised, and while he's not an expert, it was fossilised right up to the point that Ridley changed it so it wasn't.
Odd that only films apparently count, when this whole thread is based on something that never happened in a film...?
No Space Jockey in the Alien Novelization, Core to Prometheus
One thing I'd like to note about what is or not canon...isn't the Space Jockey missing from the Alien novelization?
"The discovery of the derelict alien vessel and the eggs within it differ between book and film - the finding of the huge, long-dead space jockey, which would later inspire Prometheus, is notable for its absence - but the sense of the unknown is masterfully handled."
It is hard to argue that the Alien novelization isn't canon but also hard to reconcile with the story now focusing on the Space Jockey (article on the subject).
The Weyland-Yutani Report
To me, The Weyland-Yutani Report is like any other corporate report you may read and then find some details do not reconcile and need further explanation, maybe correction.
The report itself goes some way towards how the Xenomorph eggs ended up on the Sulaco by filling in the blanks in regards to eggs found in places other than near the Queen on LV-426. And by giving insight into Bishop and Burke's relationship.
I noticed a date of 2089 that was off (by a decade) in the opening for Project Genesis.
That gets on my nerves because I hold Dr. Elizabeth Shaw's notes and memos on her so dear but I'll live...I can make it. So, I consider the report official.
Canon...until Ridley changes the details.
This message below was also in Phobos and another reason why I believe that the signal might be from the surface of Planet 4, potentially the secret destination all along.
I think there is some Good Points Raised here and i agree that the ULTIMATE Canon is the Movies, but that does-not mean that other things cant be Canon.
The Biggest Problem with any Canon/Material is they are always subject to CHANGE... which is WHY i never Purchased the W-Y Report as i considered it INCOMPLETE due to us NOT-YET having a Origins Conclusion and so it was just a case of things in the REPORT could be Subject to Change. But i applaud the Work and Effort that went into it, and a Majority of the Information would have been deemed Accurate at the Time or Close to the Time of Print. Should we ever Conclude the Prequels/Origins then i guess a Revision of the Report is Warranted and would make a MUST HAVE Purchase.
Regarding other stuff on here i think a lot comes down to Personal Interpretation and Opinion again.
1) Space Jockey, we have to remember it began as a Skeleton (Starbeast) it evolved to some Skeletal looking being HR Giger Necronom V which then HR Giger had to design a Concept Based of that which looked to NOT be a Skeleton, but due to the Color Scheme on the Prop and the Head it appeared to be Skeletal.
But we have to take what Dallas had said as his ASSUMPTION and that the Space Jockey is a Space Suit and i cant see that Changing.
2) Mural in Prometheus to me simply indicates that the Engineers had came into Contact with or Engineered different kinds of Face Huger but this does-not prove that the ALIEN 1979 Face Huger had existed Thousands of Years ago.
Essentially the Mural was a Easter Egg of Sorts a NOD to HR Giger, but those working on it had indicated it was showing the Deacon (this does-not mean the Dr Shaw Sourced Version).
3) The Rerouting of the Nostromo seems to be that the Powers to Be who had Autherised Special Order 937 where looking for a Expendable Ship/Crew that they could use to Obtain a Specimen, and the Nostromo must have been a Convenient Ship that fitted those Parameters that would have been on a Route that would NOT be Vastly off the Path to LV-426. They had it routed to Thedus to Place a Agent (Ash) on board to make sure the Objective is Reached (Special Order 937).
We cant be sure when the Company was aware of the LV-426 Signal but it seemed they had only Recently Decided to take Action on it Not Long Prior (weeks, months) before they Placed Ash on the Nostromo. Looking at Alien Covenant i think the Sequels would have given us Information that would have lead to Special Order 937
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"No Space Jockey in the Alien Novelization, Core to Prometheus"
No it's not! There is only one reason: ADF wrote a book on a script in which there was no Space Jockey. If you are familiar with the creation of the film, then you know that the studio did not want to make an expensive SJ layout for the sake of one scene. And only at the end, when the book was already written, the jockey was added to the film.
The same situation with AC, where David bombards Engineers. This scene is not in the book because it was also added to the film after writing the book.
And of course - David create ovomorphs in film/David stayed on the Covenant in the end. But not in the novel! Why? The same reason - the film was changed after writing the book. I know that some people say that the ADF doesn't like Ridley Scott's ideas or he write some or that he writes a kind of fan fiction, or that he had to constantly consult with Ridley Scott so as not to miss any of the director’s ever-changing ideas. No, just film was changed after the novel was writing.
Maybe there is something to write about the time between Prometheus and Covenant. Hopefully it will be about more than crazy David. Maybe ADF is about to write a story like that. He seems like a good writer judging from an interview at AVP-galaxy podcast. Eventually his novel version about Covenant is better than the movie since it can not be much worse.
The more he adds that goes against David as the creator of the Xeno the better. The idea that David started it sucks and should never have been in the movie at all. If ADF is trying to go against that then good.
It would be nice if they would have something about the Engineers in the book. What did not get a lot about it in AC so hopefully there will be more information about them there. An idea is that if we will get a third movie they should not have too much in the book but then if there will not be a third one they can have as much as possible in it. There could be a third option that they are trying to release a book about the Engineers or with them in it and judging from how well that book does depends on if they will release a movie that features more of the Engineers. Hopefully the book will have them as creators of the Xeno rather than David.
Essentially the Mural was a Easter Egg
No. Easter eggs are in the background and do not play a role in the plot. In Prometheus, Charlie directly studies the mural.
I understand - it’s convenient to consider the mural to be an Easter egg, because it destroys David as the creator. The link to LV-426 from Prometheus additional materials may be canceled because it is not in the film, it is not on the screen. But the mural in the story, it's a part of the film.
I cant 100% Speak for ADF and the ALIEN Novel as its been like 30+ Years since i read it. To my knowledge some of the Drafts did have the Dead Pilot (Space Jockey) but i am not 100% sure we know what Draft that ADF had based his Novel Off and Often we NEVER see the Drafts that those who Write the Novels look at.
I will have to look at the Alien Novel again, but as FAR as i am aware when working on ALIEN there was the idea of having a Space Jockey the Only Changes coming from making the Cargo/Egg Hold become something that was UNDER the Pilot Chamber that was NOT in the Drafts, and so as FAR as i am aware the Drafts had the Space Jockey.
I will say that those who work on the Official Novelizations would see a number of Scripts/Drafts but would be given a Specific One to work off.... and the Combining of the Egg Cargo and Derelict was kind of a Last Minute Change, and so its likely that ADF had already completed so much of the Novel by then, and maybe when he heard about a Scene being Scrapped he maybe thought it was the Space Jockey one and Omitted it, when in reality it was the Pyramid Scene that was Dropped.
Again i cant be 100% certain on that, i guess we have to see if ADF had ever said anything about there being NO such Space Jockey Scene in the Draft he worked of.
I do get the Impression that ADF does ADD stuff to his Novels that are NOT in the Movies or Drafts.... but then his Books Get the Green Light without him having to OMIT any additional content he adds.
Regarding Alien Covenant i think it depends on what Draft he had to base his Work Off.... who knows how many Drafts there was and WHICH of those he used..... the TWO that were Released, we NEVER had the Found as Was Egg Scene that ADF had in his Novel and so this is LIKELY something he added to the Novel that was maybe not Supported by the Drafts but again it was given the Green Light (his Novel) and so someone at FOX would surely had read it before allowing it to go to Print.
When it comes down to the Bombardment Scene this was in ONE of the TWO released Drafts, but Certainly it was NOT Scheduled to be in the Movie until Very Late and so its likely that ADF was made aware that the Movie would have NO SUCH Scene by the Time he had Nearly or Fully Finished his Novel.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Regarding the MURAL in Prometheus it seems it maybe never had any Purpose, it was NEVER in any of the Drafts.
There has been some Conflicting Reports on it... One Suggesting there was NEVER any intended Connection, and it was purely a TRIBUTE to HR Giger. The other which was made by someone who worked on the MURAL had suggested again it had no real Purpose but that it was showing the Deacon.
So it seems there was NEVER any real reason or purpose to those Face Huggers, there was NO reason they was there to show any kind of Connection or to play a CLUE to what was going on. By that those who Ordered the Mural to be Designed and those who Worked on it, NEVER had any Explanation or Story for WHY those Face Huggers would be there, they were Simply a NOD to HR Giger and so a Easter Egg of Sorts.
But we get things added to the Movie that done have a real baring to the PLOT, some of Davids Drawings are a Example. Sometimes things are thrown in because they look COOL or they are Concept Works/Props that they just add in for the sake of using them with NO real Connection to the Plot or mention in any drafts.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
You're correct Leto.
My point in regards to the Space Jockey's absence in the book is that many consider the book canon with this major missing item. If memory serves, Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization for Alien in a few weeks...applause for that by itself.
In regards to how "canon" is labeled. Alex White cites "canon" books that Titan is putting out (here).
While I might be more quick to label a written piece "canon" Mr. White goes on to cover the official classification from the publisher in the article, below.
"So when it comes to presenting this idea to Titan Books – who has a lot of these extended universe “Alien” books going back to the nineties – how much do you need to line up with what’s come before? Is there a story bible, do you need to connect to the cannon films?
Yes, I had to pitch to Titan and the idea needed to fit into the canon books they’re currently putting out. So I couldn’t just pitch any old thing, I had to really workshop the idea with the editor, Steve Saffel, before sending the pitch to FOX who have to give final approval."
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