I would like to Start a Topic to Discuss the Juggernaught (Chariot of the Gods) or "Chariot of Krishna" as David says in Alien Engineers.
For most it is considered that these Engineer Ships are War-machines, Bringers of Death. A Angry Gods Tool of Retribution!
It has also been implied as a Instrument in Restoration of Worlds (to Cleanse, Restart). As David put it "Sometimes to Create one must First Destroy"
The more Common Theme that Ridley Scott mentions about the Engineers are Gardeners of Space, they go around and Seed Worlds (Seeding Pebble Ships) and that this is what the Engineers mainly do but "Sometimes to Create one must First Destroy" and so the Juggernauts are implied to be used to HIT the RESET switch.
But are the Juggernauts Weapons of War?
For a Advanced Civilization these Ships Certainly have the Ability to Unleash Hell on Worlds with a Payload that could Eradicate Life. But what else do they offer as a Military Vessel?
*In Prometheus we saw that it appeared these Ships lack any Weapon Systems apart from deploying its Cargo Payload which we saw this in Action in Alien Covenant. Apart from that it appeared to LACK any other Defense/Weapons.
*For a Ship that Carries Deadly Biological Warfare the Engineers on Planet 4 did-not seem Afraid of the incoming Ship.
*The Engineers Only City had ONE Hanger which Stores these Weapons of War, well the Ships that Carry such a Weapon. Is this WISE?
*WHY would the Engineers leave Indications of the whereabouts of a Place that Holds Many of these Weapons of War, and had left such Indications for at least 35'000 Years?
*For a Race of Genetic Space Gardeners their so called Home-world (assume) Planet 4 appeared to only have a Border Control Ship (Giant Scorpion Docking Ship) and a Hanger for Juggernauts. We dont see the Seeding Ships (this does-not mean they are there).
If these are Space Gardeners and Planet 4 is important and holds Genetic Stock, then its rather odd to be Parking Biological Warfare on Planet 4 and Especially so Close to what appears to be their Only City on this World!
The World was Regarded as Paradise... which maybe we have to Consider it more in context to the Cradle of Civilization a Walled City where the Garden of Eden is.
Prometheus implied the Engineers Seed World by traveling there in their Ships (Pebble Ship) and dropping off a Engineer who then Consumes the Sacrificial Goo which then implies this Substance Results in the Engineers DNA to be used to either EVOLVE Basic Life (Catalyst) or begin the Building Blocks of Life.
Ridley Scott indicates they come back and Further Evolve their Creations, do they Further Seed DNA to Evolve Life on Worlds Over and Over until they reach a Certain Point that the Engineers make more Personal Interaction/Contact.
Is the Pebble Ship the most ideal Method of Seeding Worlds.
If we look at the Juggernauts it was indicated they would Drop the Cargo of Urns/Canisters onto a World and this would likely Genetically Alter/Infect Life on a World (Alien Covenant shows us slightly different effects to Prometheus).
If we look at the Sacrificial Scene where the Engineer Donates his Body to be Consumed by the Sacrificial Goo, resulting in a Event that either Provides Life (World already had Life) or Evolves Life to either become Complicated Cells or Evolves Life.
Then Consider this.... WHAT if this Process was made in some kind of Container where the Broken Down Engineer could be Collected and then Siphoned into JARS.... would Pouring the Contents of these Jars into the Waterfall/River produce the same EFFECT?
If so (and Alien Engineers appears to imply this) then would it not be more Efficient and Easier to Sacrifice Engineers and Collect the Resulting Substance/Reaction and Store them into Canisters and then Drop these onto Worlds from the Air?
If you Consider for a Moment this Proposal... then look at the Points i made Earlier then maybe if this is the Purpose of the Juggernauts (Evolution of the Seeding Procedure). Then it would make more sense WHY the Engineers would Park these ships on Planet 4, if this is where they Take Sacrifices From.
The Sacrificial Ritual could bee deemed a Honor for the Chosen, Hence the Engineers welcoming the Ship. It would also show WHY they was not Concerned/Afraid and also would not make it so ODD to live indications of where a Bio-Weapon Facility is to Mankind for over 35'000 years.. If this Place instead is a Outpost to Evolve Specimens on Earth (plus other Worlds) Once the Seeding and Re-visits have Evolved Life to a Certain Point.
Also explain WHY the Ships lack any other Weapons.
If this Proposal is Correct then DROPPING down Urns of Engineer DNA would still Destroy Life, as it would be Infected and become something NEW..
"Sometimes to Create one must First Destroy"
This would RESET Life, but still Maintain a lot of the Hard Work, it would just PUT their Work Back a Little!
BUT..... the Juggernauts could just be Solely to Drop a Horrific Bio-Weapon that would RENDER Worlds Useless for a Long Time as Life is Destroyed/Replaced by Hostile Parasitic and Invasive Organisms..
NOT exactly the Best way to RESET and reuse a World, more like a Method to Eradicate a World.
So maybe the Juggernauts are Seeding Ships... only at some Period of Time the Engineers discovered and decided that a Parasitic Organisms Traits are the way to Go Forwards and Evolve Life?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Is there a way to prove or disprove the Juggernaut destroyed life on the planet prior to the Engineer drinking black goo and "seeding" it?
I think thats one of the things that cant be Proved or Disproved either way, well certainly as far as the USE of the Juggernauts.
A few things to remember with the Sacrificial Scene is that Ridley Scott said it did-not have to be Earth, which with his other comments about the Space Gardeners implies that the Engineers have used the same Ritual on other Worlds, likely Prior and After this had been done on Earth.
Ridley Scott has a few times over the years said the Engineers Return to Check on their Creation and IF they deem that their Creation has not turned out to Plan or are behaving in a way that goes against what the Engineers deem Appropriate.... then they would ERADICATE Life and Restart again...... Bit of a Flawed Approach Especially Considering the Black Goo and Effort that had gone into Creation of Life, not just Humanoids on a World.
But in Context to your Question, we had RS say before in 2012 about the Engineers Destroying Civilizations and he even thew ATLANTIS into the Equation... which was a indication that the Engineers could have been Responsible for the Disappearance of Atlantis and its Civilization... to make room for OTHER replacements.
This seems a Indication that there had been Prior Civilizations on Earth that were Eradicated.
Regarding the Juggernaut in this Context this is UNKNOWN! However RS had mentioned in 2012 that the Engineers Technology is MILLIONS of Years Old, but this was never clear as far as Juggernauts? or the Seeding Pebble Ship either.
I guess something to Consider would be IF they had used the Pebble Ships to Seed Life on Earth, and the Earth was as that Planet Appeared in the Prologue, then its a case of WHAT does this Scene Show?
The Planet had Plant Life so we are talking IF it was Earth or Regardless that it Certainly was NOT Billions of Years prior. It could be that the Engineers Sacrifice was the Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion and so could be when more Complex Life began... but it could also be the Engineers Sacrifice would have been at other Periods of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterozoic and so IF we assume this happened on Earth (Sacrifice) then the Pebble Ships would have been around for over 500 Millions Years and maybe even over 2 Billion Years ago.
So all this could maybe Prove is the Pebble Ship/Sacrifice (if applied to Earth) had happened over 500 Million years ago and thus that Technology and Engineer Race are over Half a Billion Years Old... it is NO indication to WHEN they had Obtained/Created the Juggernauts however.. But we could Speculate they are Millions of Years old too.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think when looking at that Question again... The Destruction of Life so they may Re-start again, then it is a Flawed way to go about it.. Especially if you are Genetic Space Gardeners and this is a IMPORTANT part of your Culture/Agenda.
It really depends on what we look at regarding the Black Goo and in Prometheus it appeared everything that came into contact with the Substance just got Evolved/Mutated into something that Carried Some Traits of the Deacon (well similar Traits it shared). However the Engineers could also have shown signs of Breaking Down like the Sacrificial Engineer but at a Slower Rate. a lot about the Black Goo was Ambiguous.
The Earlier Concept with Alien Engineers and the Scarabs was more Clearer...
I used think/remember this was a Female Primate (Mandella Effect?) but having checked out TWO drafts online (Quicker than on my Hard Drive) it mention's a Primitive Woman and a thing to NOTE is before the Sacrificial Scene the World has NO signs of Civilization so this Female is either a Earlier Primate Part of the Puzzle or a Cave Woman...
Either way its to indicate the Engineers Sacrifice is what Evolved this Primitive to more Modern Human.
Our Next Encounter with the Scarabs..
We then see Fifield again latter...
Which when we consider BOTH together it implies the Scarabs Pass On/Inject the DNA of a Organism they had Consumed and this Evolves the Organism that is Injected with the DNA/Traits to become a Hybrid.
Primitive Woman + Scarab (Consumed Engineer) = Primitive Woman/Engineer Hybrid which is our Ancestor.
The Fifield Event seems to be another Injection/Evolution but this time with Xenomorph like Traits... only these Scarabs came from a Vase/Urn.
I know Prometheus is a bit Different, with the Black Goo, but we Certainly see the Sacrificial Goo breaks down the Engineers DNA but then this is either Reformed into Building Blocks of Life, or Infects Basic Life to Evolve it.
The stuff in the Urns appears to just Imprint Xenomorph/Deacon Traits... (maybe it came from a Sacrificed similar Organism).
Thanks for Baring with us ;)
Why i mention this on Context is that IF the Goo works like the Scarabs, then would surely DROPPING down either Urns of the BASE/SACRIFICIAL GOO or the Results of Sacrificial Goo + Engineer be much better way to RESET a World rather than Dropping a GOO that would Create Horrors like the Deacon, Hammerpede and Neomorph etc?
But then we have Alien Covenant with the McGuffin Radical AI Goo which can be a Lazy or Convenient way to make the Goo do what ever you Program it to do.
Which then leaves us asking WHY the Engineers were Calcified/Petrified and WHY the only other Black Goo Bombardment Result we see is the Spores (However i feel they are a Result of Unused Urns that leaked into the Water Stream on the Mountain over time and infected Fungi!
If thats Correct then it shows the Black Goo could be Programed to Simply Seek out Certain Life, Replicate and Replace all Cells with Calcified/Petrified Cells. Which actually would make it a GOOD TOOL for Eradicating Life and leaving a World then Fresh to Start Again.
Regardless... i still think if we Consider the Sacrificial Scene and a Engineers Broken Down Material was Collected into Containers and these were Dropped onto Worlds, this would make a more Fool Proof and Efficient Seeding Method.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Coming back to an interview RS gave after the release of Prometheus:
"Fandango: Do you worry that you’ve lost the element of surprise that worked to your advantage with the original Alien? By now, we’ve seen numerous movies in the Alienuniverse, and like it or not, audiences are coming in with an expectation that deflates tension and suspense. Did you feel the need to pull the audience in to the story in a different fashion this time?
RS: I was hoping I had with the fact that you have a sequence at the beginning of the film that is fundamentally creation. It’s a donation, in the sense that the weight and the construction of the DNA of those aliens is way beyond what we can possibly imagine …
Fandango: That is our planet, right?
RS: No, it doesn’t have to be. That could be anywhere. That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself.
If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera.
I always think about how often we attribute what has happened to either our invention or memory. A lot of ideas evolve from past histories, but when you look so far back, you wonder, Really? Is there really a connection there?” Then when I jump back, and you put yourself in a situation of a cave painting, you see that someone 32,000 years ago is showing me a little man sitting in the darkness, using a candle light that is fat from a creature he killed and ate. And in the darkness are two or three other family members whose body heat is warming the cave. But he has discovered that from a piece of this black, burnt stick, he has discovered that he can draw pictures on the wall. In essence, you have the first level of emotion and a demonstration of entertainment, right? Because he’s drawing brilliantly on the God damn wall. Now, you put yourself into that context, it’s 100-times bigger than Edison. And people don’t go back to the basics and ask, “Holy shit, what gave him that knowledge, that jolt to not scribble on the wall but draw on it brilliantly?”
...the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself.
We can safely assume the planet 4 Engineers welcomed the Juggernaut as they were waiting that one of them would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera.
Were they the originals in a way of the original genetic material used to seed all the other worlds by gods or beings superior to the Engineers?
Can we exclude the possibilty that a faction of the Engineers visited Earth and had a major influence in the evolution of humans, by genetic manipulation and later by sharing knowledge with the first humans, like Prometheus? If this was done without the approval of the other Engineers it is logical that once they found out a competitive civilization evolved on Earth, that would sooner or later threat the universal order, they would want it destroyed.
Did the Engineers seed other worlds for themselves? If this is the case, they would not want humans on their worlds, unless they needed slaves or subjects for experiments. But they did not seem to need slaves or lab animals. So the humans might have been an accident or most probably a wrong doing by some faction of the Engineers.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
BigDave Why do you even think that they waged wars like us? Firstly against whom? Other species, against themselves? Maybe they wanted to finish humanity because of it's warring habits?
As it was show the Juggernaut would have been a terrible vessel against other vessels. It is full of empty space and does not seem to have weapons to shutdown the Prometheus. A clue might have been how the Scorpion thing and David's ship crash in Covenant but that was not shown.
I cannot not recall exactly who said it, but the Juggernaut is the evolution of the Pebble ship, so the latter was probably out of use.
Well, the problem is that the scene at the beginning of Prometheus depicts what happened perhaps 3 billion years ago. I would also like to believe that it was on Earth and it's about the creation of life. In that way there is a circularity, the beginning and ending of Prometheus show that the Engineers created us (life) but that they can also end it: "Sometimes to create, one must first destroy".
The pebble spacecraft was 3 billion years ago. Something must have happened with their technology since then . . .
Why not see the juggernaut as just a means of transportation through space. The cargo hold could as well contain seed, plants, animals as well as the deadly pathogen . . .
@daliens and ignorant guy.
Great Points and this is kind of what i was getting at, you TWO summed up it very well.
So Indeed daliens i remember those comments by RS and i had used them before when pointing out about Planet 4 and Paradise and how it seemed those beings are Chosen to be used as Sacrifices, and so they become Immortalized in that NEW Life is Created from their Body/Soul and maybe those Statues are Erected in Honor and Memory of those Sacrifices so they LIVE on and are Remembered in that way too.
Certainly ignorantguy i made this Topic more so to not suggest they are War-ships but to Question that maybe that is not what they were Intended for.. quite how you had mentioned a few things ;)
I think if we look at the Sacrificial Scene... imagine if the Substance in the Bowl was contained in Hundreds of Urns/Canisters instead?
Drop that on a World and we can assume the Life on that Planet would BREAK DOWN and from this would SPAWN new Life and so would be a kind of RESET switch.
So using the Sacrificial Goo on Earth would make more Sense as far as to DESTROY Life but then from this it would RESET back to the Sacrificial Scene Time... to a degree (would not be as Big a Set Back) and also dropping such a Reset Switch from the Juggernauts would be Efficient.
So i still suspect the Engineers or a Group of them had discovered something THEY had no part in Creating, and Encountering this Organism they saw some Potential with it and they began to Experiment with this Organism using their Genetic Engineering Tools.
Because to me looking at the Engineers and the Goo it makes more sense to Sacrifice more than ONE Engineer in some kind of Room/Container where you can Collect the Result and then place this into URNS and Drop them down onto Worlds to EVOLVE them and pass on Engineer DNA and also offer more Genetic Diversity.
Have a Problem with a Creation/World then it makes more Sense to FILL the Urns with Sacrificial Goo and Bombard them, thus RESET the World..
The using of Black Goo that can Mutate into Parasitic, Invasive and Aggressive Organisms just makes LITTLE sense.
UNLESS those Engineers wishing to use this have deemed that Evolving Life to take on those Traits is Ideal and seen as the Next Best Course of Evolution.
So they saw the Deacon, Neomorph, Xenomorph like DNA/Traits as being Superior and more Ideal to Evolve Worlds than Engineer/Humanoid DNA/Traits.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The opening scene seems to show a Primordial World, a World that is in Change, it has Waters, Evidence of Shaping from Volcanic Activity and other Geology... The World has Greenery though.. this indicates the WORLD is NOT Lifeless...
And so indeed the Scene would be a VERY long time ago
There is NO given Date... but it appears to indicate this Certainly is before the END of the Precambrian Era and so its likely the World had Basic Life, and Basic Plant Matter but that most Life occurred in the Waters at this Time.. The Engineers Sacrifice was likely what provided the Catalyst that Evolved Life so that it would become Complex and Evolve to then Live on Land.
So its likely IF this was Earth that the Seeding Pebble Ship had arrived between 0.5 and 2.5 Billion Years ago. However its does-not mean this is Earth but its likely Similar had happened on Earth and so its also likely Earth may-not have been the First Place this had happened.. and so we can Speculate the Pebble Ship Certainly is a Technology that is more than Many Millions of Years Old, and indeed likely Billions.
Also a Good Point about the Juggernaught, they could have Multiple Uses... that makes Sense..
The Crossing Draft had indicated (which i felt was odd) that the Juggernauts had Rooms that Grew Fruit, and had Rooms with Running Water so that Dr Shaw could Eat, Drink and Shower etc... This shows that John Logan had Thought/Discussed the idea the Ships have these.
My Prometheus 2 i worked on in 2013 (mainly odd Flash Back) had a opening scene like Prometheus only we go across a Land that is more Evolved (Trees, Wildlife) and we see a Shadow of a Ship.... Horseshoe.... we then see its a Juggernaught and we then go inside we see some Engineers walk over to a Cryo-Pod and inside is a Primate they are Transporting... we zoom onto the Primates Eye... then we Zoom Out and its Dr Shaw's Eye, the Engineers replaced by David... so begins the Prologue of David wondering what is she Dreaming!
The purpose of this was to Indicate the Engineers would come and take Life from Worlds (Earth) and take them to LV-223 where they Experiment/Evolve them and then Return them to Earth when pleased with the Result...
So yes i think the Ships can have more than a Single Use!
so the Planet 4 Engineers would maybe have NOT expected this Ship would be Carrying a Bio-Weapon let alone that it would be Dropped on them.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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