Our thoughts on Advent ?

Do it! :)

The sacrifice part is intriguing because it could mean that despite being a highly advanced civilization are still very religious. Or maybe the sacrifices are of scientific nature?

"Beings that understood you must give life to both the Wolf and the Lamb. But then they tried to banish the Wolves and undo their creation. So i took their secrets for myself."

So possibly, early thought is who is the Wolf ? So in this context is it the Xeno/Morph they tried to banish. And undo their creation could be to destroy the Pathogen strain responsible.

OR The Engineers 223, are they the wolves and "undo their creation" would be to destroy this faction of Engineers who IMO are enhanced beings, genetically engineered superior Engineers OR Creations of The Engineers who have gone too far ???? Then "undo their creation" would be to wipe out this advanced creation they have made.

I personally think that the sacrifices are religion based. Not scientific. David is following that path. I think the Engineers are extremely religious.

It is hinted that they may of sacrificed many possibly they thought the offerings would justify the worlds they have wiped clean???? 

For some reason, the short films "The Last Supper", "The Crossing" and now "Advent" are better, more interesting, more touching, than the movie itself . . .

Honestly after the lack of reveals in A:C i had about given up hope so i am well happy with this. It as an amazing bit of content. I do wonder if this was always the plan or was it put together afterwards as a call back. it doesnt matter we have it now ;)

Perfect set up for the next sequel and I have a feeling it's going to be the best one in the prequel series. I want someone to save Daniels though

Amazing to think that despite the sceptics, The Queen IS a part of this franchise. Should be an amazing journey towards the next instalment.

Did anyone notice a Facehugger type creature when David is refering to the Animals on Planet 4 ? I thought that was a great touch !!

 EDIT: During the transmission when David says: "I finally had my wolf" we get to see the eggs that get Oram facehugged.

Now Oram said to the crew, something like:"I have to go round up my stray flock" before he falls into Davids trap. I thought that was a nice touch while we are talking about lambs and wolves.

"an ancient ceremony involves sacrifice, such cruelty"

Reminds me of when Steve Messing, the guy who did the mural in Prometheus, was describing how the Engineers would sacrifice themselves to create the Deacons to cleanse worlds. :)

"Interesting that David uses the word "God" and saying that they feared their own might. Perhaps this points to an event which changed The Engineers outlook on things regarding the Pathogen. Reluctant to use its power."

Could explain the outbreak on LV-223 and why the ampules and such were there undisturbed for 2000 years.

Lawrence of Arabia - Wow !!

I did not know about this and it fits in really nicely i reckon ;)

We will have to explore all the Sacrificial evidence again now that we know a little more about it and the reasoning behind it. It was obvious they were very religious and now we have some information regarding the sacrifices and beliefs.

sherris Right? When I heard that in the video I was like "I knew it!" XD My citation btw is "Furious Gods: The Making of Prometheus" when they are talking about the Deacon/Ultramorph.

Lawrence of Arabia - Thanks !!

I will go back and check it again i never caught that bit !!  Maybe something else will click now we have a little more evidence and info to go on.

This is how i imagined we would be looking at A:C but not to worry we have something of more substance now. A great addition ;)

My opinion? UTTER CRAP.

The lambs are the sacrificial engineers who ingest the catalyser to seed new worlds? The wolves are the deacons or purely the pathogen used to cleanse the unwanted worlds? The wolves were abandoned on LV223?

I wonder if Shaw was meant to seed the second Eden. But she refused.

Thank you for starting this thread and providing an atmosphere of enquiry. Together with the Crossing we now have the story of David from his repair to the end page of Covenant. 

We now know what David found out, how he reacted, his interaction with Shaw and his determination to pick up the reigns of the LV 223 Engineers. 

The key themes are beautifully restated and the narrative hardens.

1) The creation myth is centred on sacrifice and therefore its evolution and corruption is evolved through sacrifice. 

2) The Engineers found the mechanism through knowledge based on artificial intelligence to corrupt the evolutionary path, regretted the decision and turned away from the "Wolves". This explains the simplistic "true" nature of the Engineers on Paradise and the evolved enhanced mechanical nature of the LV 223 Engineers who had set out an evolutionary path of species cleansing and start again. David found out that the Engineers rejected the pursuit of Wolves.

3) Based on the drawings of David the life cycle is a hybrid created out of the curious life forms (one of which is likened to  an Egg which grows into the ground) and of course includes the addition of elements of mankinds genetic material.

4) He responded to his love of Elizabeth and knowledge of the Engineers he gained on board the Juggernaut by deciding to start again and cleanse the world in which they would be the new Adam and Eve. She rejected this vision and probably tried to escape and lead to his using her essence to evolve his experiments, so Oram is a surrogate for Shaw as the mother. This has a nice symbolism as both were faith based spiritual questers.

5) He has clearly decided to draw Weyland Yutani in and the seeders will return to find the Engineers destroyed and he has designs for Daniels. What has he overlooked possibly Walter.

For me the Crossing (to the promised land) and Advent (awaiting the coming of the Messiah and anticipated in "The Nativity" by Piero della Francesca in the prologue of A:C) is the real story. The Covenant has come into it and is now anchored to David's journey to the constellation of Origa from which Origae is derived the constellation of the helmsman, ostler, driver, charioteer or perchance the Jockey.   

With the acquisition of the Covenant the story is repositioned and fused and perhaps we can return to the audacious and fresh within the actually movie rather than around it by way of directors reveals and shorts. 

Michelle Johnston - Always great reading your input Thank You ;)

I was wondering about the Christ element. The Covenant suffered the burst on Dec.6th. It took about 2 weeks to get to Planet 4 which gets us to 20/21 December. Then we have some time on the Planet and then David ends up on The Covenant which probably lands very nicely around 25th ? You also found the relevance of "The Nativity" which i was wondering about;)

Interesting too as Prometheus happened to arrive about that time of year.

i wondered if perhaps the original idea was David and Shaw were to arrive at Planet 4 / Paradise and the damage had already been done. Possibly by the enhanced Engineers on 223 ? It does now seem as though there was a possibility that could of happened going by the information in Advent. 

The Origa information is also very welcome i would not of got that either. Many Thanks again.

I sure do have hope again and perhaps as you suggest we can get those elements in the actual film instead of searching for it in bonus material. 

David cannot be Adam, he is only the serpent.

I have no hope left after seeing the Advent. David is a sick monster who did not care about Shaw, he would not stop at anything.

He did not love Shaw, for him she was only the most beautiful subject for his experiments, the human DNA needed to improve his studies.

I do not want to imagine the carnage he will do on Covenant, all the colonists' pods hanging like carcasses in an abattoir.

And I do not want to see an army of aliens or thousands of eggs, or worse, a queen.

There is no return to the Prometheus quests, but a mass slaughter.

I wonder who directed the Advent, for he may be the director of Awakening.

Even Blomkamp can take over from here.

Is anyone more optimistic about the next episode? What are the reasons?

sherris

I think the way the back story is played out will give all sorts of hints to the palimpsest of script ideas that were worked through between 13/15. Underlying David's words are the notion of Paradise Lost a title which may or not belong to that point before David was responsible for Armageddon.

It also has to be remembered that David as the narrator may not only be unreliable toward the Covenant Crew but also is offering his vain glorious deluded view of himself. Note he describes himself as Weyland's Son. His intel maybe accurate but his perception is that of a psychopath. The idea that David could caste himself as Adam and Elizabeth as Eve makes sense of why he behaved the way he did but was delusional and Elizabeth rejected such a notion. Noomi said in one interview that she liked the idea of Elizabeth exploring a much darker side of herself that could have taken their strange co dependent relationship to another level.

Listening to David's narration put me in mind of how they could have used it as a framing device.

Imagine the prequels beginning with Walter being interrogated by the science division one of course would be the "real" Ash and they torture to him to extract Davids story, Walter having gained  access to David's memories before he sets off with his cargo of Eggs. I would have preferred a tangential Prometheus story but if they had decided on this backing into from the beginning it would have been a neat way of giving connectivity and Michael is very good at narration.         

Heck, I'd be happy if David, being immortal, is still around to plant the egg aboard the Sulaco! Killing Newt, Hicks, Ripley would look pretty good on his resume'!

daliens

Apparently Ridley directed the Advent. It has his "knowing" advertising style all over it. 

This is what I said when the film was released. 

"You cannot have the main character who is now driving the franchise being left off the hook constantly as the "mad robot". Put simply we need to make sense of his developing humanity.  The story needs underpin not just endless nihilistic bait and switch otherwise this human being loss's interest".

You can see this sentiment is essentially the same as your reaction to Advent, this guy is so irredeemably evil who cares ?

I am pleased with Advent it makes sense of the story whether its the story I wanted is a quite separate matter. 

I think to hang the next instalment on a robot whom we all want disconnected at the earliest juncture is high risk and only the promise of the big question and other players makes it remotely interesting. I also think Awakening has the potential because of all the competing issues to be thoroughly dreadful. Using the word Queen in an Alien short which has a particular application is not encouraging. If Covenant was channeling ALIEN Awakening may channel ALIENS and as Awakening was Blomkamps title not as daft as it sounds even to me.  

Really nice discussion here, folks. Advent is certainly worth the time to "dissect" (see what I did there?) in detail...

Michelle Johnston thank you for the key to Covenant from your previous post. 

Advent answered some questions, even too detailed for my taste. I saw it as a homage to the arstists who created David's lab as well.

But imo it narrows the path for the next movie to a sickening mayhem. 

And it also gives way to another director.

But if Ridley Scott will do the next one I still have some faith left.

We'll see.

I must admit when i first watched "Advent" the thought that they may of put this together post-production crossed my mind. I hope i am wrong. It would of been tough to attach that inside of A:C for sure.

However i decided i would be positive with this and enjoy it for what it is. We needed some answers because as i have said before, the stuff in Prometheus that was answered got undone in A:C and it left far too many separate pieces that A:A could never hope to answer.

We dont want to get to the end of the 3RD prequel and still be no wiser.

Speeding up growth rates in A:C

But the Xeno in 1979 Doesnt have that - yet David created the 1979 Alien.

SJ - Engineer landed on LV426 due to LV223 outbreak.

NOT NOW!! The Xeno comes from the eggs. Engineers eggs have a different end product to the Xeno. Thanks A:C

Just so many holes to fall down. The writers and Fox need proper guidance to pull this off in A:A.

So i am glad of Advent at least this gives Fox a fighting chance of getting through A:A with minimal mess.

In the AVP podcast not too long ago, artists Matt Hatton and Dane Hallet talked about 3AM shooting a viral piece of additional footage and storyline material that had yet to be released. They said there was a whole script for it and it showed David doing his drawings and experiments in his lab using real meat. It is Matt Hatton's hand you see in the video actually doing the drawings. Dane could not do it because he was left handed and David is right handed.

Advent is what they were talking about. It was one of the last things shot for Covenant.

Did anyone notice that the hand touching the window of Daniel's sleep pod is a left hand. That is the one David is missing, so me must have found a spare on the Covenant :) It is actually a clip of Walter's hand from the beginning of Covenant.

Kethol - YES it is a left hand !! Also i cant believe you mentioned it was Matt Hattons hands we see. I typed out during that comment about post-production i made, i originally added it may not even be Davids hand but i deleted it because i thought it sounded a bit of a stretch. turns out i was right to think that !!

Thanks

@Kethol

"It is Matt Hatton's hand you see in the video actually doing the drawings. Dane could not do it because he was left handed and David is right handed."

Hrm...but why should an android have a dominant hand? Seems pretty inefficient...I don't think ambidexterity falls into the uncanny valley or disturbs people.

An android would not, but the actor does, so they wanted to match that. Seems kind of silly, but there it is.

@Sherris - When you see closeups of actors hands doing things on screen it is actually very common for hand doubles to be doing those shots, not the actual lead actors. Second units usually do stuff like that so they don't waste production time with the leads. It's cool that they let Matt do it.

Nice summary and analysis of “Advent”, Michelle. RS is fond of allusions to Christian theology: “Advent”, “Paradise”, “Covenant”, “Eden”, “Hell”, “Sacrifice” etc.

The stage is now set for Lucifer (The Fallen Angel), that is David, to unleash his horde of serpents (xenomorphs) to cleanse the galaxy of the weak non-believers (in his vision).

Origa means “origin” or “beginning” and with a stretch of imagination the number 6 (apart from sexual undertones in the likeness of Giger) could lead to 666 (the number of the beast). In Alien: Awakening, we will probably have the apocalypse, the end of the world, where God will send out the four horsemen to battle antichrist?

Perhaps David has an internal struggle about good and bad and sacrifices himself at the end, leaving with a juggernaut filled with the eggs of his own making, lands on LV-426 and sends out the warning beacon . . .

In reverse order

chl

If we are going to see three or four elements then the application of the Four Horsemen maybe spot on. 

I have to believe that to bring David to a dramatic conclusion and elevate the story there is a redemption arc in there and that is how I interpret how they will overlay the clues on LV 426 into Davids narrative path.  

sherris

Your general point that this gives you hope is a good one. After all if we think this is all beyond the pale why stay with it.

It is easy to say after the event, but the ALIEN prefix has not expanded the audience but what we have is an entertaining movie with some nice touches and in the round hints of the narrative  gifts from Prometheus. We have an excellent novelisation and a prequel to it to come so its to use Sir Ridleys words "Pretty Good".

But Awakening needs to deal with the David narrative in an imaginative way and avoid troping A L I E N S that reference to the Queen is disquieting.   

Your point about when was Advent made and Kethol reminding us of its source is interesting and lets us in to the mindset of Ridders. 

On the one hand he needs a two hour cut for the cinema (its to do with nightly showings for a an R rated movie) but he knows out there on the Alien Net are a lot of fans who love to parse the stories and out of that emerged the shorts. I am entirely unsurprised that several of us have quite independently said we enjoy and gain more from this than the movie itself. 

Finally I do think there is some element of it being testimony to people like Matt and Dane. One other thought Pietro has said there was twelve minutes of Prometheus linking material part of which was the Crossing, count me as unsurprised if some of the narration belongs to that element.

I am looking forward to seeing this in its full perspective on the Blu ray my huge life concerning dilemma is what order Crossing, Covenant, Advent or.... such a difficult life !

Michelle Johnston - 

I wondered why there was such a strict time limit and assumed it was all to do with pacing and flow. You look at the bigger picture and informed that it is down to run time for R/18 films getting enough showings per night. I realise it is not just down to editing as i really struggled with that. I will let Fox off on that one (just that one tho;)

A.A: It is going to take a master class in writing to pull this off. I am unsure if Fox will do 2 more regardless of how RS feels about it. Then the prequel story may take over a decade. 1 more is all RS has i reckon. Still that will be probably over 8 years to tell this story. With the shift in direction and all the other concerns i just hope we still care by that time.

So we have 2 hours to end this prequel trilogy and get to Alien. Given the vastness of space and the obvious distances between LV 426/LV 223, Planet 4 and Origae 6 just how you could tell a story which needs to take place in at least 2 of these locations?(obviously one is LV426) The only alternative would be to ignore Origae 6 and head to LV 223 for the remaining Pathogen and crash on LV426. Otherwise you get to Origae 6, tell the story and then you need a reason to go to LV426 (or LV223)

Do you have any idea of how that could be covered in 2hrs ??

Even if we jump a few years after A:C the timeline is very tight.

@sherris I agree, I just don't see how they can possible make a good link in a 2 hour film. here's hoping they do it "right" and give it a just treatment with an epic 2:30-2:45 film WITH THE RIGHT STORY/SCRIPT...of course, no one wants 3 hours of junk.

Kethol and i mentioned that in Advent David uses his left hand to check Daniels sleep pod. 

At first i thought it was an oversight. Now i am thinking that David did NOT cut his hand off. Perhaps in the time after the fight with Walter and before he meets up with Daniels he just covered it up to make it look like he was missing a hand.

In fact, if you look closely you may notice that his left (injured) hand is almost the same length as the other and looks like it could be a clenched fist which is covered over  and not a missing hand ????

sherris

There are two way thats you could achieve this in one movie.

The Snapshot Approach

You pick up the story at the precise moment everything is about to change dramatically namely:-

1) The set up (Act 1)

In this act we find out the colonists and Weyland Yutani's jeopardy and through this it explains what has happened since Davids last transmission. (They landed established a rudimentary colony, David began his experiments. W-Y turn up as the colonists seeming helpers in league with David but intend to neutralise David). 

2) The Xenomorphs rebel against their creator made more complicated by W -Y behaviour (Act 2)

3) The arrival of the Juggernaut. (Act 3) 

The Engineers agenda and possibly Walter. The War of the Worlds scenario.

Out of which David escapes, after infecting the Engineers  determined to continue with his plan, is overcome and sets down the Juggernaut en route to LV223 for the larger payload. Recognises the folly of his creation redemption. 

That feels way to obvious but gives you more Xeno's, the Engineers the knowledge that W -Y know something and David's completion. This could be made much more sophisticated by making Walter and David adversaries during this period to focus the drama. David remember took three embryos with him to the ship according to ADF but only regurgitated two in the film. The Pathogen is capable of astonishing re targeting. 

The tear drop ship would have to be a deus ex machina and if used sparingly to cleanse Origae 6 as the final pages eradicating the story so to speak. 

The Framing Device 

In this we see the science division of Weyland Yutani considering all the recordings of David and Walter (akin to the Crossing and Advent but much longer and more in the moment) and the story is told in segments, the crucial segments, until the decision to place Ash on board the Nostromo.  

This latter one is often used by script writers when they are completing episodic television. You know the final outcome (we do any way) but the drama is all in the precisely what happens with the colonists, W-Y, Walter, Engineers and most significantly David. 

I couldn’t resist giving a somewhat different (but similar in some aspects) 3 act structure, Michelle. :)

ACT 1

Setting: Origae 6. Colony established after 7,5 years in cryosleep on The Covenant and 1 year on the planet (We don’t get to know what David’s been up to during this time, but Daniels and Tennessee are gone).

Main Characters: A couple among the colonists. The woman is the protagonist (Scott can’t deviate from that :) ). There are conflicts between different factions in their newly established society on how to rule things and what to do. Engineers (not in the best of moods) later arrive (Act 3) after visiting Planet 4.

Antagonist: David (and his xenomorph experiments).

Call to Adventure: Xenomorph attack. The colony’s future is at risk

ACT 2

Battle between the main characters, David and the xenomorphs. They are defeated by David, the main characters captured, and the colony’s future seems over (many are dead and they are outnumbered by the xenomorphs).

ACT 3

Enter the engineers in a juggernaut. New battle. The heroine manages to escape from David and saves what’s left of the colony, but her husband dies heroically. David is defeated but the last surviving engineer sets off with the juggernaut, David’s eggs and crash lands on LV-426. There is no high-tech left but the colony survives and lives happily ever after.

I would rather see an epilogue, though, where we go back in time to the outbreak on LV-223. An engineer escapes in a juggernaut filled with eggs and crash lands on LV-426 (This way, we keep the connection between the Derelict (and the Space Jockey) and the outbreak on LV-223 about two millennia before the incident on Planet 4).

P.S. They should have kept the atmosphere of this in ACT 3 of AC :)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcFsdVLs9Y D.S.

I am trying to keep my hopes alive for the next movie after watching again Covenant and Prometheus. It cannot be an Aliens 2, not from Ridley Scott.

If anyone has any answers regarding the questions asked below, I would be grateful to listen to them.

1. David brought on board two face hugger embryos, can he continue his experiments without the pathogen? He will use the face huggers on Daniels hoping to get a queen and subsequently more eggs. Are there any other options?

2. I don't know if a synthetic is authorized to pilot the Covenant, except monitoring its systems and evolution on the set track, assisting Mother. For landing on any planet he will need a pilot and he has Tennessee. So Tennessee has to live for the moment? He does not know the syntethic is David, not Walter.

3. On the other hand why would David continue the journey to Origae-6 and not return to Earth or another known planet within a much shorter distance, there is nothing worthy for him on Origae-6. Now that he has his flock of lambs, soon to be the rulers of the Galaxy, why would he strand himself on a distant desert island?

4. Weyland-Yutani also wants to get the xenos for their advanced weapons research, however they cannot trust David anymore. They cannot let him return to Earth, but will they send in the lovely colonial marines and set the meeting on a neutral planet?

5. What was the meaning of "Walter" reporting to W-Y that Covenant is on course to Origae-6 and all colonists remained intact and undisturbed and all the crew apart from Daniels and Tennessee perished in the solar flare incident?

6. Was the David report from Advent much later and Covenant closer to Earth? It did not seem that he had to wait at least 1.36 years to get a reply from the Company.

7. I wonder what in the message exchange with Weyland-Yutani triggered David's reply from the end of Advent: "... if you do this, there will be no turning back. My creatures shall be set loose to rule this Galaxy."

8. Did David ever mention that there are any other living Engineers anywhere else? He must have gained in depth knowledge about their existence. Apparently there were none of them left on LV_223. I don't see why Engineers would return apart for pleasing the fans, they seem rather extinct after Covenant. 

9. Any clues for how or where the announced "war of the worlds" can take place, how the eggs got on board the derelict or how the Space Jockey was face hugged? I have however an absurd theory that the Deacon was a queen who laid all the eggs from the derelict Juggernaut and we can see this at the end of Awakening, something out of context, like the birth of the Deacon in Prometheus. David or the last of the Engineers tried to escape by the loaded ship but ended as the Space Jockey.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Michelle Johnston - 

Thanks yet again i also got some knowledge from it (deus ex machina , snapshot and Framing ;)

Love the insight from your content. Mentioning the Tear Drop ship got me smiling cos that is something i long for;)

The Tear Drop ship  i thought was a wonderful essential idea. My dream was to end as we begun.

By an Acolyte birthing a Planet. Only we this time we see inside Tear Drop on approach. The Elders/Gods/Next level remain on the Planet for the ritual. Maybe it is a longer version with an act prior to the ingesting? Another custom. That would be a great ending for me. Once the film is done we go back to that enthralling intro and expand so much on it. How can we as a audience be reluctant to thay ?????????????

Anyway that was my dream ending. know i asked you about what u think they could do.

Do you have a farouvite Michelle. I know i am cheeky but could you tell me some time i would love to hear your input

daliens

1) The covert operation to bring on board the huggers is the link for the next film. That it was changed from three in the trays (ADF) to two regurgitated both of which achieve the same narrative benefit seems odd.. unless it is significant that David has forgotten (the whole symphony is off) he ingested three.

2) Equally keeping Tennessee alive will have a deliberate intent and give the early part of the movie a source which counters Davids dissembling including Daniels condition.

3) Why did he not divert to Earth rather than the Engineers it is about story and of course in the timeline David must stay out the way known in the end to only a handful.

4) The message to W-Y was "OK everything is back to normal' with Walters re assurance but the Advent tells us David wants to draw them in and they will go to O-6 fair seeming, but with their own agenda. I actually like this idea it links the narrative back to Sir Peter and forward to the acquisitive immoral nature of the company.

5&6) Is the message and advent slightly at odds yes but it could be explained by the Walter message buying David time with the Advent messages coming latter as you suggest. Clearly the W-Y response was we are coming they took the bait, which fits perfectly with all their future action. To them David is "just a robot" who can be switched off, they have no idea how dangerous he has become.

7) There is potentially good drama there. David sets his children on W-Y when he determines their real intensions. Indeed that might be enough is for him to use the Xeno's to occupy the W-Y factions whilst he leaves with his "Queen". Ridley has said the Xeno's will get away from Davids control a perfect metaphor would be her child hugging David and spawning the pure bio mechanical eggs. Ridley once said something got out of the hold and caused the pilot issues perfectly possible. However there is the Engineers.         

8) The Engineers, for them just to get involved in a big scrap does not feel very Ridley. One option is they come with a general intent to put mankind right and this is where the Juggernauts appear War of the Worlds like W-Y take it upon themselves to pursue war, David manages to infect them and in the closing pages escapes not realising he is infected. It does make some sort of sense for David to be heading for LV 223 for more pathogen but does not make it having been compromised.