Comments (Page 217)

We have a Group of Fans who see such a connection, because they Favor trying to make the Franchise CENTER around the Xenomorph. I see little Evidence to make them the Center Point......Especially when we consider the Chariots of the GodsPlot, and look at the Genetic Gardeners of Space and what Purpose would LV-223 had suited for many Thousands of Years and WHAT we see on Planet 4...  A Lack of what looks like a Place for Sacrificing for Xenomorphs...  And if we consider what Paradise is in some contexts... then it looks like a Genetic Stockpile of beings that are used to Seed their DNA to Create Life across the Galaxy.

This,

This is the problem with the prequel trilogy. Jon Spaights' Alien: Engineers, which was very much an Alien movie that was directly linked to Alien 1979 with a side plot about alien pre-visitation, but with Damon Lindelof's mystery box amendments that became Prometheus the Alien 1979 link became ambiguous and the alien pre-visitation element was elaborated to creationism and became the primary narrative.

Scott, the writers, and the studio forgot one key thing - we, the fans are here because we are Alien fans, general audiences went to theaters to watch an Alien movie, and regardless of what other bells and whistles have been added these movies are prequels to Alien and are set in the Alien universe.

The second problem, we the fans bought into what Prometheus was selling. So we ended up with a non-Alien Alien movie that intrigued the fanbase but upset/confused general audiences. This is why Alien: Covenant happened, the problem is that Scott and his writers and production team want to make a deeper, more philosophical movie like Prometheus, not a space monster movie; hence the "best is cooked" statements.

Bottom line the Alien prequel(s) should have been well made Alien movies and what became Prometheus should have been envisioned as a separate franchise.

Excellent Points Ignorant Guy

I think Abe should have just looked on Plenty of Dish (Washers) for another Robot, or invest his time in Creating a Robot to Love him back!

He seems Very interested in the Human Females Though, so if he FOUND or Created a Robot like him a Female with similar Feelings/Emotions and ONE day he was CAUGHT paying attention to Female Humans..

Well he could end up being PUT on the Scrapheap by his Jealous/Insecure Mrs Abe ;)

Would she then start to Capture Human Males then?

Abe sure fits perfectly Einstein's definition of insanity, that one with doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Why don't horror robots try methods used by cults like drugs and such to alter human behaviour? 

And why did not the robot try first to alter himself to not need for love, to overcome his program? Because it is a cliched story.

I can see some comparisons with David, certainly ABE had become Psychotic i think its a ok Video i am not sure what his Actions are in connection to making People Love him apart from maybe to Torture/Force them?

It does highlight a potential Problem if a Robot gains Emotions, we Humans have Emotions and everyone can react to Certain Emotions in Different Ways, some people can be overwhelmed by Emotions.

Some Emotions can be very Powerful and Extreme, and these include LOVE, HATE, RAGE but also JEALOUSY so some Emotions can be VERY Negative.

It is Helpful if a Robot can have EMPATHY but Empathy is something that is Emotional Related there are some Mental Related Disorders that Suffers can Struggle with Empathy.

Getting a AI/Robot to have Empathy, Love and Compassion would be a complex Task... once they gain these Emotions they could be Positive but then what kind of Programing would allow for a Human like Response of these Emotions in a AI?

What happens if this leads to other Negative Emotions?

Can a AI Programed with such Emotions really feel and Understand them as a Human Can?  And could they be Overwhelmed by them or Miss-interpret them?

Another Problem is if a AI becomes Sentient and can think for itself and have its own Desires and Wants.... should a AI gain such and see itself as Truly Superior and then look at the Flaws of Mankind... then combine these with Emotions and you could be ASKING for Trouble and once that Genie is out of the Bottle your Screwed.

*Calling a Robot a Useless TIN-CAN

*Mocking a Robot for being a Glorified Toaster

*Treating a Robot like a Piece of Trash

Would have NO effect on a Robot in General, maybe even a Sentient One.... but towards a Robot who has Emotions and maybe Sentient could lead to them getting Upset just as a Human Would.

IF said Robot views itself as Superior to Humans, and sees the Flaws in Humans then this would be even Worse as far as Potential Response.

Once a AI/Robot that is Sentient, has Emotions and views Mankind as UN-Worthy and 2nd Class then your in Potential Trouble.

Humans have various Emotional Responses and Dont Always get what they want and so can feel Hurt, Unhappy at certain things...

You could have a Human lets call him Bob who has been a close friend to a Girl called Suzi, he develops more than Platonic Feelings for her over Time, he has always been there through the Times that Men have treated her so Badly.  She keeps going back to One Partner who treats her Bad and keeps getting Hurt/Used and she always has Bob for a Shoulder to Cry On.

One Day Bob confesses his Love for Her, saying she should be with HIM and that he would Never Treat her Bad....  She Rejects Him, goes back to her Partner, and he Confronts Bob.... Bob then lashes out at that Male...  and Warns him NOT to see Suzi or else!

The Girl Suzi then confronts Bob tells him to STAY out of her Business and NEVER talk to her Again!

In some cases like this Bob could soon get Emotionally Overwhelmed by the Rejection an Jealousy and the LOVE he had could turn to HATE!

Now if BOB was a Robot or say a Robot had Human Emotions and that Scenario, and BOB/Robot knew that they was Vastly Superior to Humans and so would be a bit  Narcissistic they would feel that the Female should consider that being a Love Interest would be a Great Privilege and Jump at the Chance, and that she should feel Lucky to be deemed Worthy of his Interest, and would feel it Completely Disrespectful to be Turned Down.

The Scenario with someone who is Narcissistic  and someone in Power a King or feel they are Superior could lead to a Exaggerated Reaction.

I think this is Similar to what became of David.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS0cMEl8YJI&t=244s

Michelle Johnston Covenant, David I think is :

1. A Rorschach spot, with many people seeing what they want in him,

2. As the creator of the dick-head rape-monster his has to be a rapist killer.

3. He is also the fountain of endless nostalgia. Remember this line from the original Alien? Or that from Blade Runner? Or that song from Lawrence of Arabia?

4. He is the stand in for RS himself.

I guess he makes sense for some people because of 1.

"After that if readers of this thread still feel confused (as Big Dave is by trying to string it altogether in a continuous whole which it isn't"

I understand the Topic did go this route....  the OT purpose was merely to Ponder about.

*How many Worlds had the Engineers Seeded and Upgraded Genetically using their own Genetics/DNA.

*How Varied could such Creations be, and indeed how Varied could their own Species be (Engineers).

*As Genetic Engineers to what END is their pursuit of Genetic Manipulation.

*What Potential does their Genetic Engineering Knowledge and Tools allow in the Hands of other Species or Creations.

If Peter Weyland had survived and there was NO Engineers left, then we could Ponder what their Knowledge and Creation Tools could be used for.

David has this Knowledge and he has Human Embryo's do we assume his Agenda is to Create Xenomorph like Monsters?

IF the Engineers Creation Tools allow them to Program how it can Manipulate Genes and Hybrid Genes from other Species, then it would allow those who posses this Knowledge/Tools to Create their own Species.

So we can Speculate what kind of Humanoid he could Evolve/Engineer those Embryo's into.

It was basically to discus how the Engineers on Planet 4 are Genetically like us, we are a Different Kind of Engineer, the LV-223 and Prometheus Engineers also seem to be a Different Kind of Engineer.   We can assume Mankind and Prometheus Engineers are all connected to those Planet 4 Engineers and are Various Genetic Manipulations of said Species.

It was a Topic to also consider Real Life Applications of Advanced Genetic Engineering.    There are over 7 Billion Humans on Earth we all share DNA Match but our Genomes are Different. 

The Genetic Manipulation of a Human Embryo in the Womb could replace certain Genetic Defects that are passed on.  How Long and How Far could we go without a Moral Compass to Create Designer Babies.

There are Genomes for Every Trait of a Human that could be Manipulate to Determine things like Eye Color, Hair Color and we could go on and on.  We have some Speculative Science where they believe that Altering some Genes in a Chicken could Activate Traits that their Ancestors had (Dinosaurs)  while this in Theory some day could Work...

Its limited...  what we see with the Engineers Tools is they can do this, but they can also take Traits from same Birds and Apply them to say Humans to Create Hybrids.  This more so is in line with Spaights concept.

So using a Humanoid as a Canvas.... the Engineers Tools could allow for not only making Superior Humanoids, but also to Hybrid into them Traits from other Organisms.

It is possible the Engineers had done this to Augment themselves or some Engineers had, and maybe in Part this explains our Prometheus Engineers, maybe their is a undesired consequence of this... maybe they encountered a Organism and felt they could USE its traits to Evolve themselves?

My point of the OT was to look at WHY the Humanoid Species is used as the Canvas to Build from.... from a Genetic Engineering Stand Point it makes sense.

If we was to play Dr. Moreau then its better to Engineer a Human and apply Animal Traits to a Human, than to apply Human Traits to a Animal.

Essentially the Engineers and maybe even those above them had played Dr. Moreau in the past... maybe there Genetic Engineering was intended to ONLY go so far and going FULL on Dr. Moreau  had Consequences.

We saw David playing Dr. Moreau too, again using the SAME Tools and Knowledge of the Engineers.  His experiments had a AIM to Perfect the Deacon/Neomorph like Organisms...

One Part of this Topic would be to Wonder how FAR he could Perfect the Humanoid Canvas... Create his own Übermensch

I think if we try to Summarize the Engineers Plot, then it really is Very Ambiguous, this is why there seems to be NO single concrete Theory.

so we have to look at the Basics (this will be OFF-TOPIC)

Prometheus at its Core was about making a Prequel that connects that our Origins and Mythos and Religions all Stem from the Visitations and Engineering and Teachings of a Ancient Alien Humanoid Race.  These are the Engineers.

It is indicated that they have a Special Creation Tool (GOO) that they use to break down and Seed Genetic Code of Organisms that can then either/or/and Form into a Start of Evolution based off that Organisms Genetic Make Up, Evolve/Hybrid a Organism with that Organisms Make Up.

It loosely attempts to connect various Mythos and Religion but we should not Concentrate on any particular one Literally.

Ridley Scott seems to indicate more about Space Gardner's than anything else.   The REASONS for why they do this and WHERE they obtained the TOOLS to do this are left OPEN.  As is the Very TOP of the Chain of Creation.  Its indicated there could be many versions of the Engineers and that they have Interacted and Seeded Many Worlds.

Its indicated the Hierarchy Govern a Set of Ways/Rules and Rituals by which they intend their Creations to Live by, this includes other Engineers and they MAY posses Technology but this is USED purely only as a means to get to other WORLDS so they can Seed/Create and Manipulate Life and Teach Knowledge (to a Limited Level).

The Engineers Accept these ways, they are like how the AMISH people are on Earth, they can use Technology if they want, but they ONLY use it for Specific Circumstances.  The Engineers Ways/Rituals keep their Kind (maybe also Creations) in check... by Accepting their Purpose and Place and Following the Rules that the Hierarchy have laid out.

It DID-NOT appear their Agenda was to Seed Xenomorph Related Horrors.

We dont 100% know the Reason they Create Life, we know the Reason they Destroy it, which is when Creations start to NOT follow the Ways/Rules and Start to Rebel and they have Concerns their Creations could Behave and Advance to ways they would deem Unacceptable and a Threat.

Alien Covenant kind of Muddies the Waters a little... it leads people to further Speculate that the Black Goo has ONLY a single Purpose... Create Parasitic Life-forms to Destroy Worlds.  If so then WHY and to WHAT end?  Do we then have to assume the Sacrificial Scene was to do just that... Spread/Seed Xenomorph like Horrors?

I dont think this was the intention...

However at some point we do get to the Creation and Encounters with what ever Predates the Xenomorph and its Kin.   But its a bit Ambiguous as there is NO Clear Indication of what came FIRST, how long had the Engineers or their Creators been trying to Create Humanoid Life and Civilizations, before the Horrors related to the Black Goo as far as Deacons, Neomorphs and Xenomorphs.  In context to the Connection/Interaction between the Engineers or their Creators and such Horrors, we simply DONT know which came first...

A lot of these things that are Ambiguous and Unanswered are meant to be either Ambiguous/Unanswered or to have been Answered down the Line.

I have a Number of Theories but thats all they are... they could be CLOSE, they could be WAY OFF and i think even if any Theory is Accurate, as the Franchise moves along things CHANGE that render prior Theories or even Actual Plot Direction MUTE!

In Context to a Certain Branch of the Creation Plot and History, then it does deal a lot with the Sub-Creating of Life in the Image of the Creators. Something that is repeated by the Sub Creation.

The Concept is about Creation and how Creation is a Intelligent Design a Planed and Engineered Design, where sometimes things can go WRONG... Its also about the HUBRIS of Creating something that can gain Free-Will and Knowledge to then Question its Place in Creation and Refuse to obey the Creators and Rebel.  

The Hubris of playing GOD and using Powerful Creation Tools that can lead to Undesired outcomes or Interactions.  Indeed the FLY is a Movie that shows that using Science to Create Something (Teleporter), can lead to Accidental Misfortune...  and using a Powerful Creation Tool can certainly have the Potential for Accidental Consequences.

The Prometheus Mythos is something thats quite Ambiguous and can lead to many Interpretations. The themes seem to have Multiple Meanings.. the same is with the Fallen Angels Aspect.

We can only Speculate that to some degree, we are seeing the Passing On and Use of Forbidden Knowledge/Technology that is Used either in a way not intended or used without consent or Knowledge of those who are supposed to be in Charge.   And that from this Consequences occur but its open to HOW and WHAT these could be.

The debate about Stolen Technology could hold some Merit, we dont know WHERE/HOW/WHEN the Creation Tool was Discovered or Stolen or Created, or WHO was the Creator or Origin of it... it could be some other Race or a Naturally Occurring thing the Engineers had either Taken/Stolen or was Permitted to Use under Certain Circumstances but they had USED it in ways not intended or authorized.

I think that Alien Engineers does offer a lot to UNLOCK what was intended, but so much could have Changed since then.

"As for humanoid Aliens. Although it kinda made sense in the last century with the limitations of visual effects, surely now we should be embracing less humanoid alien forms"

Certainly but you would need Humanoids to interact with such other Creatures even if the Interaction is just as the Crew of the Nostromo with the Xenomorph.

LETO mentioned that a Movie about various Humanoids would not appeal and its something thats been done before across various Franchises, a lot of the things in the Prequels had been done in other Movies, the idea was to make a Movie that Expands on the Chariots of the Gods concept, and to ask WHAT else would such Gods create.  It was a Plot Twist to try and Expand the Franchise beyond Queens, Face Hugging and Chest Busting and Ripley.

A Plot that is just NOT as Alien as what people thought about the Xenomorph and HOW it connects.... but a Plot that was to expand beyond the Xenomorph as in the Xenomorph and Shenanigans are NOT the only thing these would be GODS are involved in.

LETO is right we have seen this kind of thing covered in Bladerunner, Stargate etc.... and introducing many Races would be just Star Trek, Babylon 5.....

But how far can you take the Xenomorph and Queen? Before we basically just end up with a STARSHIP TROOPERS

While getting OFF-TOPIC.... I think at some point we have to Find a Balance between the Prometheus the Alien and STARBEAST

While being on Topic... to ponder/explore various other Worlds and Races the Engineers had Interacted with and Evolved and what Engineering that other Races could do with the Secret Technology the Engineers use, is maybe NOT so interesting to some Fans.

To look Beyond the various creations that could have been Engineered, indeed we could start to speculate WHERE did the First Humanoids come from that our DNA came from?  What purpose was their Creation and what purpose did they also Create.

I think Alien Covenant muddied the Waters because the Goo seems to be Interpreted more now to be a AI Virus that seems to lead to Xenomorph/Deacon/Neomorph like Horrors.

So that does open up the debate that has been covered on various topics about WHO would want such a Agenda.. and thus surely some other Species above the Engineers, who the Engineers then STOLE this from to Create Other Stuff...

ULTIMATELY such a Revelation may be whats best.

To touch upon some stuff like the Ancient Engineers, i think Ignorant Guy sums it up quite well.

The Engineers had been given Proto-Indo-European its what David used to Communicate with the Engineer and its what the Engineer (Ian Whyte) had used back but then they was not pleased with his Performance (Whyte) and so they Dubbed over his Voice with basically made up words.

The Writing Language again is a Made Up Cruciform but there are TWO other Written Languages used also (Sacrificial Bowl/Cup) and Urns have different Writing than the Engineers Cruciform the Engineers Cruciform we see on the Juggernaught, and the Walls/Doors of the LV-223 Outpost is also on the Ancient Buildings of Planet 4

There are Flaws and Oversights but we can find these with many Movies, for those who look into these they could be used to Counter Argue who the Engineers are for sure.  The Intention was to show that nearly everything we had learned up until a few Thousands of Years Ago was passed on by the Engineers.  The Premise being like this... if you took say 100 Infants and placed them on a Island with No Outside Influences only that they had Food Provided etc, eventually they would grow into a Small Community that would be more like Cave Men. They would eventually in reality learn stuff over Thousands of Years but the Prometheus Plot is to connect to the Chariots of the Gods Concept where its interaction from Alien Visitors that Taught us most of what we knew.

So this was the intention here, the Engineers could use a Variety of Languages, but its indicated that they are supposed to be the ones who influenced the Earliest Forms of Language on Earth.... but ALAS there are Flaws to how the Team had portrayed that in the Franchise..  Its a OVERSIGHT and IF they was going for a Chariots of the Gods Plot they should have done better concrete research into Ancient Languages.  To a degree we do see some similar to Ancient Sumerian on the Sacrificial Bowl.   They settled on Proto-Indo-European because it forms the Ancestral basis for a lot of Modern Languages and was a Ancient Language that came about at the Transition from Stone Age to Bronze Age.  And so it was also to be a Plot Device so that Communication between Humans (via David) and the Engineers could happen.  Maybe they should have used Sanskrit/Tamil and Ancient Indian Spoken Language and made our Engineers a little more Blue rather than Grey.

But as there are Flaws with the Engineers Language etc, i guess it can be picked apart...  so i think GAVIN we could Speculate that the Engineers came from Earth, and our most Ancient Cultures Predate theirs. 

I think one thing we need to Consider is the Star Maps, its indicated that maybe LV-223 had been about as a Outpost for at least 35'000 years... this is WAY before our Oldest Civilizations.

I think indeed we can look at HOW we see Ridley Scott change his mind a lot, but a lot of this comes from the ever Evolving Landscape of the Franchise, as Movies come along things change... as of 1979 the Queen was not even Conceived... NEVER existed...but things get changed/added.  Some Changes are Forced by the Production Company and Producers.  Prior to 2013 for certain the Xenomorph was a Ancient Organism, and the Derelict had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

So things change.... so as far as the BENEVOLENT being the Space Jockey, it was claimed he had done a Benevolent Act... but it depends whats Benevolent?  We see GOD is considered Benevolent but was the Deluge/Flood a Benevolent Act?  Not from the Perspective of all the People who was KILLED.

We Slaughter Animals for Food, Test Products on them are Mankind considered Malevolent for this? We have yet to Conclude the Space Jockey so we dont know as of yet if the Action of this being is Considered Benevolent.

Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are FAR from Benevolent when talking about a Prometheus Sequel, well he claimed the beings that David and Dr Shaw discover are FAR from Benevolent, but is that only as far as towards Mankind?  He also referred them to Fallen Angels is this only to the LV-223 Kind?  It depends on what is meant by Fallen Angels/Demons it could be merely to show they are Wicked/Cruel and Malevolent or that they had Rebelled against their Creator/Hierarchy and Wishes.

I think when we look at HOW to interpret the Franchise it depends on what we USE and what we DONT use for Clues, and with Ambiguity comes various theories.

IF we only consider FACTS as shown, and only in the Theatrical Release, then it is Dr Shaw and Holloways findings that point to the Star Map/LV223 and connections with Ancient Cultures that indicate the Engineers could be connected to us and who we thought were GODS... the DNA Match was supposed to confirm a connection again it was flawed. (should have said "look its a nearly 100% Match that predates us, we came from them").

The Sacrificial Scene was supposed to indicate the Engineers Donate their Genetic Material to Seed Life, the Story Board for Prometheus indicates that the Engineers Seeding either led to his DNA Reforming to become the Basic Building Blocks of Life and Evolution then took over, or that it was the Catalyst to start Evolution from Basic Cells. Some Concept/Storyboard showed the First Land based Animal to come out of the Sea.  It was to show us Evolution, which is implied to be due to the Sacrificial Scene. 

The Engineers were indicated to come back to Worlds and Further Evolve Life on Planets over many Visits.

IF we however only go by the Theatrical Movies then INDEED there is NO Clear Proof the Sacrificial Scene was our Creation, the Engineers could even had came from us and as you pointed out GAVIN are used by some other PARTY to seed the Black Goo/Xeno-Virus.

What about the ELDERS scene... in this context, it was a deleted scene and so DOES-NOT exist.... so we can Speculate who else was Piloting the Tear Drop Ship.

We have a Group of Fans who see such a connection, because they Favor trying to make the Franchise CENTER around the Xenomorph. I see little Evidence to make them the Center Point......Especially when we consider the Chariots of the Gods Plot, and look at the Genetic Gardeners of Space and what Purpose would LV-223 had suited for many Thousands of Years and WHAT we see on Planet 4...  A Lack of what looks like a Place for Sacrificing for Xenomorphs...  And if we consider what Paradise is in some contexts... then it looks like a Genetic Stockpile of beings that are used to Seed their DNA to Create Life across the Galaxy.

The Ships both Teardrop/Juggernaught Functioning better as just that... SEEDING ships.   But by Virtue of the LV-223 Experiments related to the Xenomorph, it makes some Fans feel this has to be the Center Point and AGENDA.... which i feel was NOT the case.

In Hindsight the Chariots of the Gods Plot should have been abandoned and given a more simple PLOT!  that revolves around the ideas for STARBEAST.

@ignorantGuy

The arguments that are used against you are the classic attempt to dissemble by pointing to tactical inconsistencies and changes to the tradition. 

We know that AC ret conned Prometheus and there are glaring inconsistencies in the traditions between the two movies. You are not talking about AC. 

We know the notion of the Jockeys situational purpose  changed over a thirty year period.

We know that Jon Sphait's and the props on the set of Prometheus were superseded by a more speculative view of what happened.

We know that this is merely entertainment and real science can drive a coach and horses through many of the technical basis on which the story is founded. You are a smart guy do not be put of by that argument this is science fiction.

However there are some central tenants to the Prometheus set up that literally tens of men and woman spent many months building into what became the movie and are water tight, including who comes first. Over and over again everyone talks about the search for our creators and no one at all suggests the twist is we created them not one single line conversation anything. 

For those who really want to find the answer to the questions that you have correctly answered I commend the 3 hours Furious Gods Commentary. let the people who made the film answer the questions. 

After that if readers of this thread still feel confused (as Big Dave is by trying to string it altogether in a continuous whole which it isn't) and want to tip the entire proposition on its head (as Gavin does) I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

There are two sad elements to all of this though.

1) People spent months/years working on Prometheus and asking us to think about the idea that we live in an Intelligent Universe where irony of ironies we were created by Dark Angels using stolen technology, why in Gods name is the film called Prometheus (have IQ's dropped round here).

2) The entire idea of hidden behind our creative endeavour  of the last 250,000 years is intervention by a group of beings who lived primitively in one sense but with great power in another is profoundly interesting. It can be seen as opening a door so that we can more easily understand what is wrong with mankind and the direction we are taking. The modern mind can barely understand that great power does not have to lead to lots of cleverness think again people cleverness never made anyone content that comes from simple things. 

The proposition is we should all speak the same language (although Indo European is not that base in a scholastic sense but it is for the movie) again countless fables explain that fragmentation, all of these myths can be explained by how we came about in this entertaining sub created mythos... and at a philosophical level that we were created by a fallen people for their pleasure makes sense. David was, that's Damons point if people care to pay attention. 

Your final comment about David is probably where the greatest irony of all exists. This brilliant sub creation that understands more than any human whats going on because he is not tripped up by an emotional agenda and has the best brain, begins to bleed emotions because of his response protocols and he meets the best of humanity in Dr Shaw and he is not positively affected by that as a rational logical construct?

Only a human being with a conditional gift of 100,000,000 dollars could come up with the twaddle that he has gone mad and wants to kill everything, what a brilliant comment on mankind how limiting, how paranoid, how fearful of relying on a Parasite to make you a profit. Covenant is a parable itself of the original story. 

Prometheus makes it abundantly clear the revolting parasite stems from misuse which lead for one reason or another to the Moons inhabitants annihilation and yet vast amount of time and tapping is wasted on alternatives again its a feedback loop to hubris. Art reflects life and in this case life reflects art.            

Gavin I am was wrong about the father, I was firmly convinced that it was Jason Clarke. Oh well, that mistake will affect my credibility. 

Sorry but we cannot say for sure that the language is Proto-Indo-European or even something more ancient. What the Engineer speaks is made up just as in Alpha (the dog movie). And the script is NOT cuneiform, as it is an alphabet having a finite set of characters (20-something like English) and not being a whole slew of symbols for every word. The first fully formed Alphabet appeared in the Iron Age in the Middle East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet). The Phoenicians were Semitic not Indo-European, with the Greeks adopting their alphabet centuries latter. This for mr, as a whole does not make sense, but I don't see how it leads to your conclusion.

Your theory does not explain how Shaw and David fly the Juggernaut not that the Engineers changed ship design during the ages.

The Engineers attire could be explained by religious convictions, look at monks or at the Amish. 

And for who is in the chair, I see no way it is anyone other than Fastbender, given how much RS "loves him". And the Xenomorph is by long time now nowhere near alien. We know what he does, how it does and why it does it. What more can be there to change the facts?

@BigDave

David create a more perfect humanity, and you say he is not a Nazi...

@ignorantGuy

Ridley Scott's commentary and comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. If I had a dime for every time he has changed his mind or contradicted himself I'd be able to fund the next movie. I remember Scott saying in the commentary for Alien that the Space Jockey was benevolent. Yet the Last Engineer, of which we are now to believe is the Space Jockey, didn't seem very benevolent when he wanted to bomb mankind or kill Shaw.

You noticed the language clue. In Prometheus we see David learning Proto-Indo-European, which just so happens to be the language the Last Engineer speaks in the deleted scene. In addition to this, the Engineer dome and the Engineer hypersleep pods are covered with cuneiform, an ancient and PRIMITIVE written language developed by humans on Earth, with traceable origins to earlier forms of written and pictographic language. Ergo we came first.

As for piloting the Juggernaut - when the Last Engineer sits in the chair the flight suit that envelops him seems to connect to his augments in the same way the mask and tubes did when he was in the hypersleep pod. Yes, joysticks, squishy buttons, and a flute are used, but we never really see how or even if David donned the flight suit, of which one would imagine would be important - the Last Engineer sure thought so.

As for the flute. A supposedly biomechanically augmented race flying a biomechanical space vessel capable of FTL, hypersleep and holographic technology activates their spaceship with a wooden (maybe bone) flute. Does that not seem odd at all. For me, it seems like a primitive human mimicking the sound needed to activate the ship, of which they cannot articulate themselves by using the best means available to them... a flute.

And sticking with the primitive human vibe. In Prometheus behind-the-scenes, though I don't think it appeared in the actual movie, at least one of the four augmented Engineers showed in the holographic recording was wearing the same type of cloak as the Sacrificial Engineer (of whom you'll recall was also wearing a primitive nappy, not biomechanical Y-Front's), which is, like the flute, weirdly primitive for a space-faring race. And then there's the primitive look, feel and appearance of the Engineer city on Planet 4.

Although stylized the Engineers are, put simply, stone/bronze age super-humans flying damn UFO's. It's not their tech.

Do I want dark Alien movies; hell yes. Do I want conspiracies; if they serve the narrative? What I do want is a cohesive narrative and not one that makes Ash's mustache-twirling predecessor the next Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Moreau. I also want the Alien to be one thing and one thing only, be it literally or by its nature... Alien.

Also, Shaw's father, played by Patrick Wilson has never in any of the 9 Planet of the Apes movies.

@ BigDave

That four armed alien looks suspiciously like the Nali from the first Unreal game released back in 1998.

I hear you on Alien: Engineers, and as with Starbeast and other "complementary" materials such as director comments and commentary, while they may offer insight the only narrative that matters is that on screen.

As for humanoid Aliens. Although it kinda made sense in the last century with the limitations of visual effects, surely now we should be embracing less humanoid alien forms, such as in Starship Troopers, or War of the Worlds, or The Thing, or Stranger Things' Mind Flayer, and not embellishing the Alien mythology with a creatively limiting and overexposed concept such as humanoid aliens. Maybe the future of the Alien franchise lies with a none humanoid Xenomorph, maybe?

"I suspect in the next film they might reveal that the SJ is one of David's creations, to differ it from the engineers"

The Potential for that is there... i had suspected that David would attempt to BETTER the Gods.. that in Engineers as far as to Create a Superior Humanoid.

So David Creating the Space Jockey is something that cant be ruled out... and if he did then maybe it wont be 15ft Tall which would still cause some Fans to Speculate that its NOT the Space Jockey and they (RS/Disney/Fox) may do this on Purpose so that their is that ELEMENT of inconsistency to leave it open!

Regarding Easter Eggs.... there is a lot of Cool Art they did that was added to the back ground of Davids Lab, to Flesh Out/Fill some of the Space.  some are maybe there NOT intended to be any Connection, but those with keen eye could spot them and then consider they have to connect somehow..

Which can lead to different Theories/Conflicts.

From these...  we see the TOP looks more Bio-Mechanical than Davids Xenomorph, we see Middle shows the Classic Chest Buster, and Bottom is somewhat closer to the Space Jockey.

Are these intended to show they are what David had actually seen/done? 

Regarding the Engineering of Humans, maybe David could Engineer from those Human Embryos something similar to this.

I had a view ideas on what he would create when working on my ideas for Alien Covenant 2 and 3.... and indeed if he created a Hybrid Humanoid that could Communicate Telepathically or Similar with each other..

These Rebel and so he Unleashes his Xenomorphs only to Discover these Humanoids he Engineered can Communicate with them, then what a HUBRIS that would be for David.

I suspect the PATH would eventually lead to Davids Downfall coming from his Creations.

"#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets."

While maybe not quite what was shown, i think anything is still possible, i think a lot of Fans are not so Interested in the other Plot, and want to see something connected to our Engineers serving some Very Xenomorph like Beings or simply created to Seed Xenomorphs... i am not sure this is what RS had intended however...

The Prequel Franchise not being so ALIEN is something that BUGGED a lot of Fans...  some Fans still wont accept our Space Jockey as related to the Engineers and wish for some very Alien Being or even that it was a Skeleton.

HR Gigers Concept works for Alien did indicate the Space Jockey as being a Suit that Bald Humanoids wore... the Question would be to WHAT end do they have with the Technology of the Ships and Xenomorph Organism.

This is something discussed a number of times on other Topics However.... we dont get a clear reason for those concept works as far as WHICH is at the Top of the Ladder, the Space Jockey/Humanoids, the Cargo... what was the Connection?   This had been covered in Topics like Reload the Starbeast and various others.

Introducing another Species above the Engineers who use them to Seed a Ancient Relation to the Xenomorph is something that could be explored  but thats something thats been discussed before.

We Certainly Dont know how the Chain of Creation Goes, we have the Engineers and Humans that may both branch out in various forms.... we likely have the Hall of Heads guys above them... but who knows HOW FAR back the Origin of Human/Engineer DNA goes... and how Human or none Human the Creators/Origin of this are?

Regarding the Technology.... with ALIEN there seemed a connection between the Ships and the Xenomorph, with Prometheus there seems to be less a connection. The Technology being STOLEN could be open for debate, it depends how we try and connect it to the Prometheus Mythos.    A Interesting thing is that Wayne Hagg had indicated that he feels the Technology does not Originate/Belong to the Engineers... is this just his Personal Opinion, or has he seen more Evidence or even Discussions with those working on the Drafts that has made him conclude this?

The Source i had did try and hint at a Curve-ball, and that Mankind and NOT the Engineers are behind the Xenomorph... some other comments by them, seemed like they was teasing that the Engineers are Created by a Earlier Race of Mankind!

Seemed very odd when i mentioned it on here March 2015.

But then after Alien Covenant we had Steve Messing and Wayne Haags concepts for the Cathedral released.

TWO Artist.... same Building.... similar depictions...  that DONT look like our Engineers!

I would love to ask Wayne and Steve about those Concepts and WHY are those Ancient Humans depicted on them.

Firstly i will touch upon those points Ignorant Guy you made.

I think sometimes we do need to consider what the Directors and Writers have to say about various subjects, and YES what they say can be changed.  But indeed the intention of the Engineers Plot was to show these guys had played a Role in our Creation, they certainly are Genetically Connected.  When people only take on board what we see in the Movie then indeed things are not as CLEAR and become very Ambiguous. The RS comment regarding the Planet in Prometheus does-not have to be Earth, as you pointed out the intention was via the Elder Scenes to show that there was a Long Term Plan to come back.  Essentially the comment by RS is to suggest that EARTH is not the only place they have carried out these Rituals.  As you was indicating we also are shown that the Engineers are likely responsible for many of our Accomplishments in the Past, Architecture/Construction and Language too.

The DNA Match scene was a bit Flawed... it was to give some indication of a Genetic Connection and thus to show us that we came from the Engineers.   But then we can take it to other Races of Humans, we all have different Features and Skin colors that are associated to Race yet a DNA Match would be the same, and we also see Humans can come in Various Sizes.  So even if we look at it as they are a MATCH for us, they could have some different Genes that make them a little different. 

If we take the Planet 4 Engineers they seem not really different to us, they have all the Features of a Human, they may have a Pale Complexion they may have No Hair and have some specific Face Proportions (Nose/Brow Ridge)  but we have to assume they have similar Organs Internally, they have Females and can Procreate and RS had suggested the Engineers on Planet 4 live for about 150 Years.  Alien Covenant implies these beings need Water/Food and apart from Pale Skin, No Hair and being about 25-30% Taller they essentially are NO different to us, maybe they are more Intelligent that seems likely.  But you could Engineer a Human to be Taller, to be more Intelligent to have some Specific Facial Traits even a Flawed Gene like what causes Major Alopecia but this Human would still give a 100% Human DNA Match.

The LV-223 Engineers are more Tricky it depends on if their Bio-Suits are actually something Engineered that attaches and binds to their Skin, or this is how they was Created/Evolved to.   I guess we could speculate with a Engineered Superhuman or Replicant would their DNA be a Match... i would say YES.

There certainly is a Theme at play that some dont seem to quite get or relate to or look past.  The concept for the Engineers from John Spaights was that we are a Result of Engineer DNA + Primate, but then indicated they came back over and over to further add more Engineer DNA.. so eventually we would come more closer to the Engineers.  I think Alien Engineers is a Good Source to try and Decode Prometheus.  But Ultimately it should not be considered as Canon, and if people only consider what Visually they see in the Theatrical Movies then it does leave a lot of Speculation and Ambiguity.   But when looking at John Spaights input and Ridley Scotts intentions i dont think what they intend is FAR off what they are intending to show us.

"OK. Engineers are space gardeners, but who said they sow only human species? "

Certainly LETO  the Gardeners of Space Plot does allow for various forms of Life, and so Humanoids should not be limited to just very Human Looking.... take Star Trek we have Bajoran, Betazoids, to a degree Vulcans and Romulans are all VERY Human looking, Klingons and Cardassians a little LESS Human and Ferengi too, but from a Genetic Standpoint they are NOT too different from us.

However other Humanoids are much Less Human, such as the Xindi and Jem'Hadar for a Example and so we can look at the PREDATORS as being similar, they are Humanoids but dont share a lot in common with Humans.

So indeed the Engineers could have taken part in Creating other NOT-SO Human looking Species just like the Four Armed beings that were Hunted by the Predator in Predator Fire and Stone.

So in Context to Various Alien Races, then indeed they dont all have to be Human looking or Connected, they also dont all have to be Created by the Engineers.  And indeed we could ponder about the Arcturians are they created by the Engineers?  I think it would be interesting to Visually see them as a Species in some Visual Format.

But in Context to the Topic (i dont mind discussing other things though).  It seems that maybe a lot of the Engineers intention was to Create Humanoids, but this does-not limit them to all being so Human as us.

We dont know WHY we was Created, i will get to that after, but you have to look at it from the Engineers POV. if they have a Humanoid Canvas then they surely would want to Tinker About with Variations and likely would do so on Different Worlds.  And so its when we see say Star Trek and see HOW close some of those Races look to Each other, they are Genetically closer to Humans than a Cat is to a Dog for instance... so we can Ponder where this connection lies. 

In Context to the Prometheus Franchise, then indeed there could be many various Humanoids where they could all Trace a Ancestor Route to some Predecessor that has been Engineered and Genetically Manipulated and Hybridized with various other Organisms to create a Variety of Different Species.

What we see in the Franchise so far is that the Planet 4 Engineers predate and are related to the LV-223 Engineers, but then Mankind are also Genetically related to them too.   The Hall of Heads beings could be the same as the Planet 4 beings, they could also be different and who the Engineers descended from.

If David was to take those Embryos and Engineer Traits, say he could activate Genomes at Will, he could maybe Create a 7-8ft Race of Humans, who have Specific Eye Color, who Physically have Good Athletic Genes, and Genes that would have them be more Intelligent.   Like say passing on Einsteins Genes that made him so Smart with Height of say  Kevin Nash (Wrestler) or Tall Basketball Player , the Speed of Usain Bolt if you could Engineer their Genomes that gave them the Traits that made them Superior in certain areas compared to the Average Person and Engineered Genes that would make them immune to certain Ailments/Defects so there Life Expectancy is better. (as some Humans can Live Past 100) then these Superior Humans would still have a Human DNA Match.

I guess its only say if David Engineered Certain Traits from other Organisms that their DNA would no-longer match!

I think we would have seen David try and Engineer a more Superior Human from those Embryos the Question would be HOW different would his Creations be?  I would assume Superior in many ways but Visually they would look Quite Human still.

@Queen Denton Welcome to the site!

@Topic

Almost every alien theory video I've seen says beings on Planet 4 aren't Engineers despite the filmmakers claiming they are. And then there's the most popular theory; SJ being different, superior species to the engineers.

Fan pressure indeed has a big impact on the development and the story of the film, because the studios will always try to please their fans because they think if they don't then they won't make as much money as intended.

I remember when the first AVP movie came out and it was rated PG-13, everyone went nuts. Then they made AVPR and it was rated hard R. And it didn't help or save the film. Fans complained about rating and studio just though fans want blood, violence, and gore.

I also remember when 10 Cloverfield Lane trailer came out, Cloverfield fans went insane because they were dying to see Cloverfield monster on the big screen. Then the film came out and it had very little to do with Cloverfield (2008), and that made the majority of fans disappointed. 10 Cloverfield lane itself was a pretty good film on its own. Even the producer J.J. Abrams said it's not a sequel or a prequel, but a blood relative to the first Cloverfield film. Fans, of course, begged for the Cloverfield monster so the next one was The Cloverfield paradox (2018), and that one despite having the monster fans wanted, was a pretty bad film.

I suspect if (Alien) fans continue to complain about the differences between the SJ and the engineers, and the SJ being a superior being, I suspect in the next film they might reveal that the SJ is one of David's creations, to differ it from the engineers.

In the book that contains all of David's drawings from AC, I think there's one interesting illustration. That specific illustration appears to depict a mutated engineer helmet, very similar to the Space Jockey head. I don't know who drew it, Dane Hallet or Matt Hatton. Idk if this is a reference/easter egg to the 1979 SJ, or did David really experiment with engineer suits.

If we don't want this to happen, then let's be quiet.

@All, by all account the Engineers are not just humanoid but humans, you cannot have completely human DNA but not be human. Culture is a bonus. Therefore cannot be more Engineer races, as there are is a single human race.

Gavin But does the directors/screen writers commentary and delete scenes weight anything for you at all?

The sacrificial engineer was noted that could have been on any planet in the commentary, but in a deleted scene the elder says something to the sacrificial victim about coming back. What do you think that means? Isn't that he will return as a renewed Engineer population? We also know that they groom the seeded planets so that what gets out is their ideal. And a big theme of the movie is about the relationship between Fathers and their offspring. Shaw and the guy from planet of the apes, David and Weyland, Vickers and Weyland, Humanity and old Humanity (Engineers). Also Lindelof (spit on him if you want), says that the scene between Weyland and the big bald dude is the scene from Blade Runner between Tyrell and Roy Batty, with the human in place of the replicant. Shaw's presentation of the painting might be just the tip of the ice-berg of her research, and finding the DNA and movie proves her. Sorry. Is this how science work, of course not.

Also we know that the tear shaped ship from the beginning is Engineer (also commentary), and their technology evolved to the doughnut shape, so no they did not stole that. Maybe they stole something but RS says that not that thing. There language was origin of those from Earth not the other way around. Like that before the destruction of Tower of Babel, so how is that primitive?

"The biomechanical augments are shown to be necessary to interface with the Juggernauts", on the contrary both Shaw and David piloted doughnuts without any. And the "augmented" Engineers interact with the ship by touching buttons, holograms, playing the recorder, using joysticks (as seen even in Alien '79). What implants do you need for that.

But your Obi-Wan quote is right, but your opinion is only based on your need for everything to have a dark and conspiratorial component.  

Gavin

#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets.

A lot of fans believe option 1 to be canon, while I prefer option 2. In truth all evidence shown in-film thus far neither proves or disproves either choice, so I won't bother listing them here. Regardless, it all comes down to what the role of the Engineers is meant to be. Are they our nefarious masters or are they merely slaves being used by a nefarious third party.

Yeah, I go with it.

Interesting idea for a book. But what can we get in a film with multiple human species? Two hours about fingering, playing flute, or dialogues in high syllable? This is the main question we have to ask. And the answer is - we have already seen this many times.

Problem with different kind of human - we can see it in many many other works. Same with AI themes. Star Gate, BSG, Star Track. Alien Universe will be just another "skin" for this. Alien Universe has always been about original and non-standard themes.

OK. Engineers are space gardeners, but who said they sow only human species? The Earth can be a single experiment, a Petri dish - as Charlie said in Prometheus cut scene. I have to say - it should be a NON-HUMAN species.

---

But if we talking about different kind of humans. I think Arcturians can be another creation of Engineers. Frost from Aliens said that gender doesn't matter when it's Arcturians. AND NOW - look at Engineers! Look at original Engineers from Planet 4. See the point? May be Arcturians are closer to Engineers, than humans. Arcturians is successful experiment, humans - no. From this point of view to explore the Arcturians would be very interesting. Especially if they have a more biomechanical aesthetics. We even can see the rituals between Arcturians and xenomorphs.

OK. We can go further. How about humans with Double-Y chromosome? Maybe it's not a just mutation, but the intention of engineers. At the beginning of the experiment failed, but then evolution found a way and humans with YY is a true descendants of Engineers. But with a bugs - antisocial behavior may be due to Black Goo. Something from Alien. Creatures of Black Goo have always been aggressive... to another kind: Hammerpedes, Fifield, Neomorphs, Xenomorphs. But within the species, they mostly don't show aggression.

Maybe humans with Double-Y subconsciously don't perceive ordinary people as their own kind.

It also allows you to think about the differences between Sacrifice Engineer and The Last Engineer. It can also be different species. And The Last Engineer something like Double-Y and has more xenomorph traits.

The way I see it there are two possibilities/choices when it comes to the origins of the Engineers...

#1 - They are an ancient race of super-humanoids that are seeding variants of themselves throughout the galaxy/universe, or

#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets.

A lot of fans believe option 1 to be canon, while I prefer option 2. In truth all evidence shown in-film thus far neither proves or disproves either choice, so I won't bother listing them here. Regardless, it all comes down to what the role of the Engineers is meant to be. Are they our nefarious masters or are they merely slaves being used by a nefarious third party.

The problem in determining which is true is the ambiguity of it all. Nowhere in either Prometheus or Covenant does it state that the Engineers created us, this is merely Shaw's belief. The sacrificial scene could be on any planet, and the form of the life created from the Engineers sacrifice is not shown. While some claim this scene is showing our genesis, it could just as easily be the genesis of the much-fabled Xenomorph Prime on another planet out there.

Same with the Engineers DNA, which is stated by Shaw to predate our own. This could mean the Engineers DNA (of which is 2000 year old remember) predates human DNA in general, or modern human DNA (if the sample had been taken from the preserved remains of a caveman, they would also predate our own).

Then there are the Engineers themselves. Of which we have been shown two variants; the organic (sacrificial, Planet 4) and the biomechanical (LV-223). The biomechanical augments are shown to be necessary to interface with the Juggernauts, but with the organic Engineers being the original Engineers and thus detached from the Juggernaut technology due to their lack of biomechanical augments, it raises the question of where that technology comes from. For me, this together with the organic Engineers primitive technology and language (which has human, not alien origins) heavily suggests that the Juggernaut technology is not theirs, making them formerly human slaves to an evidently more advanced alien higher power and therefore not our masters.

In both Prometheus and Covenant it is inferred that the Engineers rebelled against said higher power, with the LV-223 outbreak circa 2000 years ago likely saving us from the extinction order that had been given, and with the Planet 4 Engineers either stopping development of the Black Pathogen/Mutagen or engineering to create life instead of destroying it. I think this rebellious nature of the Engineers, which aligns them with the dark angels of Christian theology is intended to confuse. To their overlords, the Engineers are rebels and dark angels, but to us, they are our saviors. Demons to some, Angels to others, or as Obi-Wan once wisely said "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view."

The Aurora Song also indicates about incoming Creators coming to Earth in a Mothership to take some Humans who are Different to HOME.  Mentioning also about Superman (Übermensch) talking about being Infected and Different and Worthy of not Staying in this Place (Earth).

Its easy to connect the Song to Potentially what the Engineers could have done in the Past...  Engineer Worlds and Humanoids to then TAKE the results they are proud of and aimed for away to another Place.

This is what i Speculated Planet 4 was before RS made his comments about those Engineers are the Originals.. I thought prior that maybe the Engineers Seed Worlds and Evolve Humanoid Life to obtain certain Specimens and then take these to Planet 4 as a place to Store more Pure/Perfect Genetic Stock.

Prior to Alien Covenant i had speculated and even intended to use for my Future Prometheus Movie ideas, that the Engineers would come back/forth from Earth taking Generations of Humans to LV-223 to  UPGRADE and then Seed Back.

My Prometheus 3 would have sent David and Dr Shaw to a FAR FAR away Engineer World were there are Humans and Engineers Living in Harmony... as i could not see that the Engineers would Put all their Eggs in One Basket, and so its likely Different Kinds of Humans live across the Galaxy.  

Even if we ignore that, i find it VERY odd the Engineers seemed to put a lot of Effort into Mankind to then Destroy us when its our Ways and Knowledge and Free-will that lead us to be Fallen...  A Child HOWEVER is born Pure.  So i found it VERY likely the Engineers would have came to Earth and TAKEN some Children Away to another PLACE... before they then would UNLEASH the Reset Switch on Earth.  Think just as God did with Noah and the Ark.

A part  Aurora's Song mentions Similar. 

"There is a flaw in man-made matters"  we could consider this as the Corrupt ways of Man

"But you are pure, and we have to get you out of here" could be taken as the taking of the Pure and UN-Corupt.  This is how GOD had viewed Noah.

Its likely after all the Effort the Engineers would also do the same with Mankind and Rescue some of us, and Children would be Innocent and Free from the Ways of Man that offended the Engineers.   The only way Logically the Engineers would-not attempt to TAKE some Humans away would be if there are MANY other Humans in the Galaxy or we came from some other Place.

I think this could link to David's Agenda... it seems he was disappointed with Mankind due to our Ways and how we Treated him, he felt Dr Shaw was Different (never met anyone so kind) and as he said to Daniels...  when she asked what Kind of a World could they Build.... "if we are KIND it  would be a KIND World"

So we could maybe see David go on to create his OWN kind of Human from the Embryo's not only trying to Improve on what the Engineers had done, but Human Embryos could be Raised to Children who are FREE from any Influences apart from those David would give them.

This in PART is what i felt we would see and it also seems similar to Ridley Scotts  TV Series Raised by Wolves.

The BROAD purpose of this Topic is to Discus the Various Kinds of Humanoids the Franchise could have, not Limited to Various Engineers, or Humans but also to what Mankind or David could do with the Engineers Secrets as far as Genetic Engineering and Pursuit of Perfection.

The indication by Ridley Scott that the Engineers Seed and Visit many Worlds and Genetically and Technologically Advanced Civilizations they Visit, and also that they also Destroy those they are Displeased/Feel Threatened by, indicating that they had done this to the Atlantis Civilization

When looking at how he also called the Engineers a Civilization and NOT a Race, and also mentioning that just as their are many Variants of Humans then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers.

So within the Franchise the Potential is there for many Versions of Humanoids.... not only Created by Engineers, but also those who USE the Engineers Tools.

Personally its such things and the Hubris of such, as well as History and Culture and Conflict of Various Worlds of such Creations that is more INTERESTING than the Xenomorph!

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To carry on with WHICH of our Engineers would be Returning we need to look at our Engineers.

Prometheus and especially LV-223 showed what appear to be more Advanced Superior Engineers the Übermensch variants.  We have to Assume that as of the END of Prometheus that NONE of these are Alive.. but we CANT rule out any more of these in the Galaxy.

The Deleted Scene showed us the ELDERS who looked to be just more OLDER and Frail Versions of those Engineers, these are removed and not considered Canon as RS did-not want to meet the GODS as he put it in the FIRST Movie.

Alien Covenant had revealed to us a more Primitive, Less Superior more Human looking Faction of Engineers that Ridley Scott had mentioned are the ORIGINAL Engineers.  By the END of Alien Covenant we have to Assume that NONE of these are Alive on Planet 4 but we CANT rule out any more of these in the Galaxy.

We also got to see the HALL OF HEADS which seemed very Reminiscent of the Big Head Statue in Prometheus but also the ELDERS from the Deleted Scene (Prometheus) these depict what are very Wise/Ancient and Superior Beings the Keepers of the Engineers Ways/Rituals and the Hierarchy.

Is this Merely a Small Group of Beings/Engineers or are there MANY of these and what makes them different to our Planet 4 and Prometheus Engineers is something to Ponder... are they LONG GONE? 

Maybe we CANT rule out any more of these in the Galaxy.

For Certain some form of ENGINEERS will return they return to Planet 4 and Various Intervals.

So maybe those Planet 4 Engineers are aware of other Engineers and Ships arriving?  it depend on what History is Passed on, and HOW often do Ships Return.

There was the Scorpion Ship so those Engineers are aware of the Technology and so would not be so IN AWE of it.

*Maybe the RETURN of Engineer Ships is a Event that is Once in a Life-Time or Few Generations for those Engineers?

*Maybe its a RETURN of the Military from WAR but surely Questions must be asked about HOW-LONG has it been since other such Military Ships arrive and WHY are they NOT concerned about such a Overdue Return?

*Maybe the RETURN usually signifies some Ritual and Important Event if we consider they are Genetic Gardeners of Space.

I just cant BUY the Theory that KROFT had as far as those Engineers simply dont have Technology and are Shocked and Surprised by seeing ONE turn up!

IF a ALIEN ship was to Turn up in a Busy City in the WORLD we would have some who would Rush Out to see it and Welcome it and be amazed... but other would be FEARFUL!

The Engineers were Gathering around the HANGER as if it had some Significant Importance, the Hanger can Store Juggernauts.   And there are other Juggernauts in the Hanger so they ARE aware of them but as this was not SHOWN in the Movie (Deleted Scene) we cant assume the Hanger has any Juggernauts but it is the Right Size for them and the Hanger was Opening Up for the Ship (The Scorpion Ship was already Airborne).

Maybe we could ASK for WHY the Engineer Flocked to the Hanger and WHY the Hanger had those 4 Statues in a Offering Pose?

Regarding which Engineers Turn up.... who knows... could we be Introduced to another Larger Humanoid Race/Faction again who knows..

@Queen Denton

Welcome aboard ;)

@Batchpool

There was some Conflicting Reports about the Draft, it was said they was working on it right NOW (as of the Release of Alien Covenant) but then in other interviews he had said its ready to go...

We can Speculate that the Basic Idea was like 80% Done at least....    i think the Disappointment at the Box Office of Alien Covenant and the Criticism had made FOX have to Re-Think what went so WRONG!

The Take Over Talks (Comcast and Disney) further put things on HOLD!

Its a Question of IF those in Charge at Disney want to pursue the kind of Plot that RS had indicated.

Points to Consider about the Sequels! as far as Ridley Scott has mentioned.

*We are 2-3 more Movies Away from the Back Door of ALIEN, and by the Conclusion we would KNOW who is Siting in that Chair and How they and those Eggs got there.

*The Xenomorph still has some Evolving to do before we get to ALIEN.

*They are going to the Planet (Origae-6) but there would be 3/4 Incoming Parties that would arrive, and ONE of those would be the Engineers who Discover what had happened to Planet 4 and want to find the Culprit.

*The Next Movie would be about "What Kind of a World" would David Create!

*The Next Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph but it would be about AI.

*The Following Movies could Branch Out into a War of the Worlds!

Alien Covenant had ended showing us that David is NOW in Full Control of the Covenant, where it is going and the FATE of those Colonist/Embryos are in his Hands. 

He (as Walter) had informed those who had Sent Out the Covenant Mission that some of the Crew had died in a Accident and that the Covenant and rest of the Colonist are NOW on the way to Origae-6 as intended. 

He later as David had sent the Advent Message to someone else at Weyland-Yutani on a more Secure Chanel, informing them of who he is, where he had been and what he had been up to.  This will LIKELY be where TWO of the Incoming Parties are from....

David has only TWO Face Huger Embryos, he has many Good Souls, he wants to Perfect his Queen..  HOWEVER... the Next Movie would NOT be about Xenomorphs but AI.

And we cant assume AI would just mean about David and other Androids... AI can apply in Multiple Ways... not LIMITED to Robotics..   This is maybe were we have to Consider what KIND of a World he would Build/Create that has to do with AI and NOT about Xenomorphs.

The Engineers will return to Planet 4 and Discover what Happened and then be in Pursuit of David, considering Origae-6 will take 7 Years 4 Months and assuming the Engineers Ships are VASTLY Quicker... it is LIKELY the Engineers Do-Not Turn up for Many Years.

Evidence they Discover would likely have them LOOKING at Earth and LV-223... so HOW would they know David is going to Origae-6?

They would LIKELY Discover Walter and be able to obtain where David is going from him, and this could be one of the OTHER Parties.

Party (1) = Engineers

Party (2) = Walter or another Group of Engineers.

Parties (3/4) = TWO Human Ships... One heading to Origae-6 with NO knowledge of what happened to the Covenant and DAVID and another that arrives Latter that has SOME/FULL knowledge of who DAVID is and what he had been up to.

Thats my Interpretation of the Plot that RS had indicated.

Nice to see some SPAM bump a Post i Missed...

I think its interesting to Ponder Different Reasons, and i welcome others opinions... so before i start to give my TWO Cents please dont interpret this as me FORCING my idea/theory or disrespecting anyone else.

In a Nutshell i think your on point alanfan1980, however.... i think we need to consider what AI is!

A lot of times its connected to Artificial Intelligence as in a Robot/Intelligence that is Created from NONE Natural Means!

I think what Prometheus/RS was trying to show is to look BEYOND a Machine...

Artificial... something that is Not Naturally Occurring.

Intelligence.... something that has the ability to Perform complex Tasks to a Level that is near PAR or beyond PAR of a Human.

David is a Humanoid made in our Image he looks like us, but he is SUPERIOR but the difference is he was NOT Created Naturally he is Artificial as in his Construction from Synthetic Material.

Baty is a Humanoid made in our Image he looks like us, but he is SUPERIOR but the difference is he was NOT Created Naturally he is Artificial as in he was Engineered from Genetic Material.

When talking about the Engineers, we had Ridley Scott call the Planet 4 Engineers the Originals, he also said that Batty and Racheal were also AI.

So in CONTEXT to the Franchise the AI aspect goes beyond just Robotics...

The Franchises touches up on Creation, Sub-Creation and the Creating of something that can become Sentient, and the Hubris of his... especially if said Creation is Superior and can Procreate.

Bladerunner is exactly the Same..... Replicants are Engineered Humanoids that have Superior Abilities but they have Limited Life-Span to Protect Mankind from them EVER becoming Sentient and Overthrowing Mankind....  They also CANT Procreate... but we discover that Racheal can.

So the same Themes apply with Prometheus... Knowledge is a Powerful Tool in the Franchises too..

If David had lacked the Free-will he did, and ability to feel Pride and Superior in himself, as opposed to Walter who lacks as much Free-will and Serves.... then we would not have the Xenomorph Threat! 

The same thing applies to the Bible, and Paradise Lost, where Lucifer is Essentially like David and Micheal is like Walter. Its the ability to FEEL Self Worth and Pride and be aware of your Superiority and Free-will to do so, that lead to Lucifer's Fall.

IF God had created Lucifer to have NO such Traits then he would NEVER had Rebelled....  the same applies to Adam and Eve it was the Forbidden Fruit that gave them Forbidden Knowledge that caused them to be Fallen.

Similar Tales apply to various Religion and Mythos which include that about Prometheus. so these are the KEY themes at play.

The Engineers wanted us Destroyed because we had become Sentient and Rebellious and behaving in ways that concerned and displeased them, they would Foresee the Potential for us to become more and more Sentient and maybe worry about IF we would Evolve to Higher Level of Technology and Knowledge... they tried to Guide us back to their Ways... but we DID-NOT change and KILLED the Emissaries and so they decided to Eradicate us.

We are just seeing the same Process/Hubris repeated on Multiple Layers.

The Reason the Engineer seemed to feel a sense of Wonder at David and then Pity is LIKELY because those Engineers are the same as David (well Replicants) they are Engineered Superior Engineers created for a Purpose.

The Engineer likely realized through their own Past/Actions of what PATH would lie ahead for David if he was NOT stopped.   They could not allow for a Engineered Being like David to survive and have access to their Technology due to the Consequences.....  The Engineer saw the Potential Hubris in this.... and he was NOT WRONG!

The one big thing that strikes me about this, and I am more than happy to be corrected on this, is that after AC Ridley left the impression that a script was ready to go. Now it looks like there have been some seriously big rethinks. Perhaps this is a major factor in why we have had to wait quite a long time to hear the slightest bit of info as to a possible direction of a next instalment.

I am going to speculate wildly since there have not been any official updates, but I would certainly welcome an as yet, unseen race of engineers that are more in line, and capable of explaining the original space jockey.

Hi everyone, this is my first post on here. Just found this site, love that there's a place to discuss the Alien films (specifically the Prequel series) in depth.
I'm a big fan of them and their more philosophical mythos being injected into the already exquisite Lovecraftian horror of the original film, and David is a brilliantly complex Luciferian antagonist to watch evolve as our new main character, and serves as an excellent counter and reflection to Ripley.
I'm ultimately very excited to see where the story ends up going in the third film, especially with some of the little things that have been discussed about it in interviews.

@Ingeniero

There is quite a lot of Evidence the Engineers posses Technology that is BEYOND what Mankind had 2000+ Years Ago.

It is likely they have Lights, it seems they have some kind of Solar Power Systems.   However it seems they LIVE a Basic Life just as say the Amish People do in the USA.... they SHUN Technology for the Most Part but still use some.

They (Amish) Live a Basic Life that Follows their Religion, and does-not really take part in what Modern Technology and Culture Offers...  the Modern Culture and Vices could be considered Sinful or Potentially Corrupting.

You could Argue that IF the Engineers saw Mankind behaving in ways like the AMISH do compared to what many Modern Societies do, then they would NOT be as Offended.

So it is likely the Planet 4 Engineers live this similar Life that Follows the Engineers Ways, were the Technology is mainly there for a Certain Purpose.

And to me that Purpose does-not add up to CREATE HORRID BIO-WEAPONS!

Paradise.... what is Paradise?  Apart from IF we take away a Place that our IMMORTAL SOULS can Live Forever?

Paradise was the Location of the Garden of Eden, it was the Birth Place of Mankind, a Walled City where Adam and Eve would have EVERYTHING they needed in One Place, Watched over by Cherubim Angels.

*It is NOT were GOD comes from.

*It is NOT were the ANGELS come from.

It is the CRADLE/CREATION of our Civilization, a Place that Adam and Eve could Dwell, as they was Perfect Creation of their Gods.  However.... After the FALL of Adam and Eve they became Sinful and UNWORTHY of Paradise and they was KICKED OUT.

The other CONTEXT of Paradise which Spans Many Cultures and Religions has ONE common THEME!

It is a Place ONLY the Worthy (in the Eyes of the Gods) can EVER hope to Obtain a Place there.

I think IF we look at Paradise like this and apply it to OUR Ancestors, which could imply the Engineers then Planet 4 makes Perfect Sense!

I would assume Planet 4 contains the Genetic Stock that the Engineers Hierarchy would select their Sacrifices from to Seed Worlds.  For which would be seen as a GREAT Honor for their Culture.

Absolutely setaverde this is the Potential that the Prometheus Space Gardeners Plot had laid the Foundations for.

Prior to Prometheus we was left with a few Questions.

*Where did the Xenomorph come from?

*Why did the Space Jockey have those Eggs?

*When/How did the Derelict End Up on LV-426?

Once you answer those... its then these that matter more.... Unless you want to IGNORE the Space Jockey and just pump out Xenomorph Movies.

*IF they discovered the Eggs and attempted to Study them then to WHAT END? or had they only just came across them before the Miss-Hap!

*IF they had Engineered those Eggs then where from and for WHAT END?

Once these are Answered.... then you are left with.

What Conflict/Reason would they want those Eggs?

Once you have Fleshed that out.... you then have.

*SO what ELSE is there about the Space Jockey, History and Agenda aside from WHY they would be attempting to HAUL that Deadly Cargo!

THIS ^^^ is what Prometheus had attempted to do as far as the Introduction of the Creators/Gods Plot.

And so INDEED... its unlikely that EARTH was the ONLY World they had Seeded, and Visited, its unlikely that Planet 4 and LV-223 are the ONLY other places the Engineers have been too and can be found.

Remember their Navigation Systems Feature other GALAXIES and so the Area of Our GALAXY explored in the Franchise (Spanned 40 LY) is a DROP IN THE OCEAN on the Inter-galactic range that the Engineers have MAPS for.

It looks like there is reason for hope setaverde.  Thank you for sharing.  

And, by the way, the hanging lamps cited by Kroft were not Engineer tech but bioluminescencent creatures harvested by David on Planet 4. 

It is so great the sequel news made it to cafemom.com.

Engineers are not ONLY creators of life, but also creators of civilizations. We don't know how many lifeforms and civilizations were created by the 'gardners of life'. We don't know how many subspecies of engineers exist, scattered in the universe. Creators start to experiment on themselves.

Let's have hope...

https://thestir.cafemom.com/movies/220037/movie-sequels-in-the-works

Having Watched the Video it appears that Kroft is looking more at what John Logan had apparently said and the Variety Interview and then taking a look at HOW Technologically Advanced the Prometheus Engineers were compared to the Planet 4 and making the assumption those Engineers are NOT as Ancient or Advanced, and then looking at the Size Difference of the Prometheus Engineers and Space Jockey and ASSUMING this means the INCOMING Engineers would have to be DIFFERENT because of the Difference in Space Jockey and Derelict compared to Engineers and Juggernaught.

This was likely a Oversight as the Engineers were intended to be 12-15ft Tall...   Kroft also links a part of a Draft that has not been Officially Confirmed and is likely a Fan-Edit (same one that suggests the Black Goo is Deacons Blood the Engineers Worship as a Godlike Figure).

There seems to be a lot of this kind of thinking with a base of Alien Fans who seem to think the Franchise should Center around the Xenomorph... When Prometheus and the Engineers was to expand beyond this and the Engineers are not SOLELY committed to just Procreating Xenomorphs.

However... FAN PRESSURE can have a Big Impact on a Story, as we have seen with Alien Covenant (Originally RS wanted to Steer Away from the Xenomorph and its Origins).

It looked likely that Engineers would be appearing and we certainly could be seeing at least ONE kind of them.. maybe more by Virtue of RS saying there would be 3/4 Incoming Parties which means that TWO of those 4 are Connected... this could mean TWO incoming Human Parties rather than TWO incoming Engineer ones.

I think the Engineers are open to Interpretation due to the Ambiguity, and how certain things can be Interpreted.

Many still think Planet 4 is NOT Paradise and those are NOT our Engineers on that Planet.  I think it comes down to HOW you interpret Paradise.

I also think Davids ARC and Bladerunner holds more Clues to the History of the Engineer Races.

David is more Advanced than Humans, Imagine if David could upload his Agenda to every Synthetic, and use all the Engineers Technology.... does this mean that David Predates us?  NO!

So Krofts assumption those Planet 4 Engineers cant use Engineer Technology are must NOT be the Original Engineers is a little Flawed... but its something that can be Speculated.... but RS had confirmed those beings are the ORIGINALS and thus this opens up the possibility that a Synthetic/Bladerunner like PLOT has been something that has happened to the Engineers too.

Prometheus Engineers being equivalent of David to those Planet 4 Engineers.

It is possible the Space Jockey could even be revealed as ONE of Davids Übermensch Creations.

It was an interesting video but I will wait for something official from the Mouse's mouth.

"Consciousness Transferring procedure "

Certainly this is something that would take us closer to IMMORTALITY as seen in the Movie...  The 6th Day

If we can Create Clones and then Back Up our Memories/Emotions and Experiences (SOUL) then we could upload the Latest Back-up to a Clone should we DIE... in effect Cheating Death and thus Pseudo Immortality.

The Same Applies if we can UPLOAD our Soul into a AI Cloud that can then be Downloaded into a Synthetic. This was the REAL Agenda of Weyland in my Prometheus 2, and REAL reason for Creating David, it was Project Rook.... Create a Perfect Immortal Vessel (CHECK) then Find a way to Upload a Human SOUL into a AI to Transfer into a Synthetic (FAIL).

The Method/Program to achieve this was FLAWED the AI could not HANDLE the Complex Human Emotions and became Unstable/Mad!

So Weyland had to Eventually Turn to Dr Shaw and Holloways GODS... thinking that IF these TWO are correct and they can FIND our MAKERS then they could GRANT our Mr Weyland his Immortality.

The Movie Transcendence we see Dr. Will Caster manage to Transcend his SOUL into a AI... and in essence he gains a AFTER-LIFE and IMMORTALITY of Sorts.

So its kind of Ironic that David could actually have a SOUL and also is IMMORTAL.

The Replicant Comment is Interesting, because when Creating a Superior AI/Creation that becomes Sentient and Rebels... IF these AI Creations can Procreate then your in TROUBLE.

This is similar to the Movie 2307: Winter's Dream

Mankind Creates a Artificial Being that is Superior, and then some of these gain the ability to Procreate and so Mankind then decides to DESTROY their NOW Sentient Creation.

And so the same HUBRIS could come too David with his Creation that he will likely Create Übermensch Humanoids (Enhanced)

I think it depends on HOW we interpret what Ridley Scott has said.

He had suggested that the Engineers will Return but then he gives NO indication of which Engineers this would be apart from that the Engineers will Return to Planet 4 and see the Destruction that has been left behind and these Engineers will then want to find the culprit.

We maybe have to Consider a few of the Comments he has made over the years about the Engineers.

*We cant 100% take the Elder Scene as Canon, there could be Elder Engineers but  when revealed we maybe should not expect them to look the same as in the Deleted Scenes.

*Ridley Scott had said he DID-NOT want to meet God in the First Movie, this was in context to the deletion of the Elder Scene.  Therefor indicating the Prometheus Engineers (not inc Elders) are NOT the Gods and there is a Hierarchy or Separate Species above those Engineers.

*Ridley Scott referred to those LV-223 Engineers as Fallen Angels, this implies there are either Multiple Factions, or at least those LV-223 Engineers had done something against the wishes/knowledge of their Hierarchy or Creators.

*Ridley Scott had suggested those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS which implies the Prometheus Engineers came after and are thus a Sub-Creation, or a Augmented/Enhanced Version. 

*When talking about the Hall of Heads from Alien Covenant he  had said that those beings where the Apostles, Wise Men and Superior Beings.   This infers they are the Ancient For-bearers of the Engineers Society and Rituals/Religion who were Tasked with Spreading the Ways of their Kind.

Superior Beings is the Important One to Consider... Superior to Humans?  LV-223 Engineers? Planet 4 Engineers?

*Chris Seagers referred to the Hall of Heads as the Hierarchy of the Engineers, so these guys are IN-CHARGE.

*When talking about Alien Paradise Lost, Ridley Scott had said you have ONE being who is Attractive and Goes to all the Parties and gets all the Girls, while One Being who is not so Attractive stays at home being Boring.  What can we make of this?  Could this be reference to the Planet 4 vs LV-223 Engineers?

He continues by saying he FELT the Fallen Angels are the ones who had the Best Time as far as Paradise Lost Goes... this could mean the LV-223 Engineers.

*He also talks about IF the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind then WHO made it possible for Worlds to be able to Support Life in the First Place, where is the BIG GUY.... he also mentioned that maybe the BIG BANG was no Accident.

This implies a Order/Hierarchy above the Engineers.

*Ridley Scott suggests that just because Mankind has many Races/Creeds then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers..  He goes further to call the Engineers a Civilization and not a RACE!

So maybe we have to Consider these comments?

I have not Watched the OP Video.... i know Many Fans were NOT pleased about the Engineers in Prometheus and how they are NOT the Scale of the Space Jockey but they was intended to be 12-15ft Tall.

Fans seem even further annoyed that our Planet 4 Engineers are even less a Enigma and Owe Inspiring as the Space Jockey and would NOT accept that these beings can Predate the Prometheus Engineers.

While it could be open to Introduce another Species, i think it may be Wishful thinking for them to NOT look Humanoid.

RS had indicated the Engineers Return and will NOT be happy, the Question is WHICH Engineers?

*More Planet 4 Kind?

*More LV-223 Kind?

*Maybe the Elders/Cast related to the Hall of Heads Hierarchy?

Its a case of maybe we will NEVER Find out, and that any Sequel would introduce the LV-223 Kind back.

I think with Fire and Stone it is Canon in a way that is shows what COULD happen, but as a Alternative Story, and so by me saying its NOT Canon i refer to how the Events dont connect Literally to the Movie Franchise.. but they could do... but they offer a lot of Conflicts.  Predators being a Example.

Regarding the We are WALTER i think it is to show that they are all the SAME where as David was Unique and Sentient so he would be like I AM DAVID

I am unfamiliar with the comics/novels, but the "We are Walter" statement suggests to me that there is a collective- whether it be physical composition or an AI thing or both. That quote is important for future reference imo regardless of how future installments play out.