Comments (Page 218)

“The thing about perfection is that it is unknowable, it's impossible, but its also right in front of us, all the time”

Kevin Flynn from Tron sure agrees with you dk, as do I.

I do like the trial and error notes David took during his development of the "perfect organism", above.  

The organism may not be perfect but his approach is "something to see" when choosing growth over nutrition needs...good stuff!  This sure matches up with what we saw with the Trilobite so David must be on the right track.

Raised by Wolves

I think we're getting snuckered on the details because it ties into something Alien but that is just me.  

Great comparison hox.  The xenomorph represents an upright lethal fast-acting flu.

"I would NOT consider Fire and Stone as Canon..."

It's OK BigDave...my feelings are intact.  

I think we might be on the same page though regarding Prometheus: Fire and Stone included as canon. At the exact moment that Ahab shows up in the comic, I default to the previous comic as the canon-cut-off point.  Ha.  

So...yes, not sure how to make a canon argument for the series but I sure like certain details in Prometheus: Fire and Stone.

"However this does-not mean concepts and ideas from the Comic could not be used in Future Movies..  There are other Aspects of Walter that indicate some kind of Biology in his Construction and so  as SPECULATED a number of Times on HERE we could be introduced to that Walter Models are IN-FACT a Synthetic Construct"

That is a great way to put it...concepts from the comic series boiled up into the Alien: Covenant story and I'm sure we will see more of the concepts seen in Prometheus: Fire and Stone comics in the films or other areas...or at least I hope so.

LV-223 a century after the Prometheus mission in the comic would be great to see some how in film, below, in my opinion.

I missed the collagen reference to Walter on the first passes through the Alien: Covenant novelization so I had to have missed something else...one thing below...

The "We are Walter" response from Meet Walter is echoed on page 12 of the novel with "We are David."  

Gavin And how would RS cave in to the "fans"? Many cry that the characters are stupid, but that started with Kane. Some claim that David did not kill the Engineers but another species. The same goes for the Xenomorph. And the highly likely reveal that David is the space jockey did not seem to generate much enthusiasms whenever it pops up. All bets were put on Fassbender, and he was in flops pretty much since 2016. And let's not forget that Shaw's ghost still haunts the whole endeavor (with quite some people say the were willing to put up with other things if they included her). And there also is cancel Alien 5.

What if RS's vision is already known to lead to more anger? He sure needs to do some heavy convincing, but I don't know if this series can generate more than 250 mil at the box office.

PS. Let Ripley and everything related to her to comic books and comics.

Although this is mentioned in the OP, the problem with Krofts' video (and most of his videos TBH) is that it is a mixture of all news and rumors together with his own speculations and theories.

Which in all honesty I find perplexing that certain other Alien: Awakening commentators are not attacking Kroft's videos of which could be misleading to some fans, but yet our community here is repeatedly attacked with spreading "fake news" for posting clearly titled rumors or speculative articles.

When it comes to Alien: Awakening the truth is we know very little. We know Ridley wants to and is positioning himself to bring the final movie in his prequel trilogy, but beyond that, we know nothing. Previous mentions of the movie's narrative (David vs Engineers) were shot down by Fox CEO Stacey Snider, and the TV serial was shot down by Emma Watts.

Meanwhile, whether Scott sticks to his guns like he should have done after Prometheus or whether he, again, buckles to the opinions of the producers, studios and social media remains to be seen.

@BigDave, i'm a problem solver and i have the solution to immortality:

Consciousness Transferring procedure 

a)to an android

b) to a clone

There's a movie  from this year, where we can watch This ideas brought back to life: 

'Replicas'

Here's the trailers,

https://youtu.be/JAHKQPBKSZ8

https://youtu.be/MpJEOpsVWtA

 Ps: Blade Runner is about creation of life from the scratch, but Replicants, model Nexus 6, are not perfect. For instance, they are not able/aloud to reproduce. What Tyrell does is to destroy Them, continuing to pursue perfection, achieved When he makes Rachel, a new Replicant, able to reproduce.

Creator-creates life-new life able to reproduce, therefore, it also creates life.

Full circle of creation

In 'alien awakening', i need to watch David to close his circle of creation.

That's it. It's my ONLY demand to Disney :)

@BigDave, you can read a very interesting article in This link:

https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/07/alien-evolution-theory-predicts-that-extraterrestrials-will-resemble-homo-sapiens-holiday-feature/

'Prometheus' is One of the most important films to scientists, because it gives to Them a vision about a possibility of how life was created on earth. Yes, we could have been created by aliens, according to some scientists. Even earth, like we know it, could have been created by An Alien Specie. Here's a small text from the article:

"The images above are from Ridley Scott’s movie Prometheus stunning opening  when the Engineer, the blue muscle-bound alien creature standing by the waterfall has opted to drink the black goo to break down his own structure and spread life on Earth through his own DNA. What we see is the beginning in the creation of Earth. The giant ship has landed on Earth to drop off the Engineer so that he can terraform the planet and make it sustainable for life."

Yeah I prefer the queenburster from ALIEN 3, simply because she is very distinct from the common chestbursters.

BigDave

More likely David-morph, but it was pretty obvious.

Regarding Übermensch i think indeed this is something that RS was going to explore on Various Levels.

When he made the Revelation that the Planet 4 (Space Hippies) where the ORIGINAL Engineers this points us to maybe consider the Prometheus Engineers are a Übermensch variation.

I had interpreted his comments about "what kind of a world" that David would Create, in a Movie that is NOT about Xenomorphs, and would be about AI... and how RS had considered the Replicants to be AI..  Then this draws me to assume that David would be Engineering those Human Embryo's to be his Übermensch Creations..

He could maybe Rule over these and Declare/Teach to them that he is their Creator and GOD!

What happens when another being Turns Up who looks like their GOD (Walter) and other Humans and then David's Creations Discover the Truth of their Origins (Human Embryo's) and that David is Actually only a Creation by their OWN Species (Humans) of which NOW we would see that those Engineered Humans would now consider themselves the Superiors... 

This FITS with the Themes of Prometheus... its what my version/plans of Alien Covenant 2 would have covered based off my Interpretation of RS comments.

And indeed it seems that his Raised by Wolves TV Series could be using some of these ideas!

so indeed a lot of Nietzsche Philosophy seems to be at play and the Übermensch could be Introduced, and also indicated to had been something achieved prior.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/06/27/interview-alan-dean-foster-alien-covenant-novel-discussion-avpgalaxy-podcast-51/

Thats a Interview with Alan Dean Foster.... i get the impression the "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris." Scene was NOT part of the Draft and ADF added it as he felt this is what would improve and flesh out the Story.

However it seems FOX was happy for him to add this to the Novel.

So the Debate Continues....

I think it still boils down to if we take the NOVEL as having more Weight, than the Directors Comments.

without seeing the Draft that Alan Dean Foster had to work with, we cant really be sure.  Maybe i have to dig up a Interview with ADF... i am sure he mentioned that this Scene is something he had ADDED.

If we assume this was correct, then we have to ASK where did David discover the Egg... if he Discovered it on Planet 4, its indicated from the Novel (as far as i am aware) that David encountered a Specimen he had to Euthanize.

We then have to ASK how many had he detected, and HOW Foolish are the Engineers to keep a Specimen on their Homeworld?  Without Safety Precautions.

It depends on HOW we interpret our Engineers, i think RS had plans to show these beings have much more about them than Creating/Sacrificing themselves for the Procreation of the Xenomorph...  RS seems to want to cover the Broader Creation and Gardeners of Space.

If the Engineers Main Agenda is to Procreate Species like the Xenomorph, then Discovering a Egg on Planet 4 would NOT seem too out of Place. 

But i am NOT drawn to these beings using Planet 4 and the Cathedral as a Sacrificial Place to Procreate such Horrors!

For me i am drawn more to the Creation of Worlds and Species for other reasons as the PRIME Agenda of the Engineers.  I am actually more drawn to conclude the Juggernaughts are just more ADVANCED Seeding Ships and NOT any WARSHIP!

And so the Egg on Planet 4 prior to David's Arrival seems out of Place...

I would NOT consider Fire and Stone as Canon...

However this does-not mean concepts and ideas from the Comic could not be used in Future Movies..  There are other Aspects of Walter that indicate some kind of Biology in his Construction and so  as SPECULATED a number of Times on HERE we could be introduced to that Walter Models are IN-FACT a Synthetic Construct much like Eldon from the Fire and Stone Comics.

Maybe just a Coincidence.... or it could be Part of the Plot Convenience to show us HOW the Xenomorph would gain its Bio-Mechanical Traits.

AKA... Walter-Morph!

I still have not read the Official Novel... the 3800 Marks Indicating Days that David has been on Planet 4 is Interesting, i would HOWEVER wonder why he would need to keep a Tally as he is a AI and so he would have a Built In Clock/Calendar and so Marking of Days would not be required for a AI.

But if we are to Assume this is a indication of the Time David had spent on Planet 4 then it would mean that David had Arrived on Planet 4 in what would be Earth Date of Early July 2094

Something to take NOTE is the Crossing which shows Dr Shaw's Hair Growth is something that would take 5-10 Months Depending on Person (Each Persons Hair Grows at Different Rates).   I had discussed this before and Average Growth that she had for a Average Female of her Age would have been 6-8 Months.

So we can assume this indicates that from when Dr Shaw had recovered David's Body/Head to when she had Re-Attached him would have been 6-8 Month Period.

It seems that Planet 4 is in/near the Zeta 2 System, which surely means that the Juggernaught would NOT had taken long to arrive at Planet 4.

So when looking at the 3800 Days that David had been there by the Time the Covenant Crew Arrive, then this would FIT with the expected Hair Growth of Dr Shaw while she was contemplating putting David back together which then would also leave us to Speculate the Journey from LV-223 to Planet 4 could have taken Merely Days... Certainly no more than a Few Weeks.

So it Certainly seems that 7 Months had Transpired from when Dr Shaw had recovered David to when the Covenant Ship had arrived of which we can Assume 5-6 of these was Dr Shaw alone with just David's Head.

I dont think we really have any Exact Dates though... just that about 10 Years 11 Months had past from when Dr Shaw and David had Set Off from LV-223 to when the Covenant Arrived on Planet 4 (End of Prometheus to Events of Covenant).

Speculating what Happened between Both Movies would be Interesting i am drawn to a Certain Period of Events which i could give, but it could be distracting from the OP.  The only Context to the OP would be to Indicate that David had spent a Period of Time between a Good 10 Years, 5 Months in Creating the Xenomorph.

It seems possible that the concept of perfection is/was a nod to Nietzsche? Basically All human life would be given meaning by how it advanced a new generation of human beings. The aspiration of a woman would be to give birth to an Übermensch, for example; her relationships with men would be judged by this standard

IDK- I am really just interested in hearing what the Forum has to say.

Also, with that very brief scene, that Resurrection burster initial hiss appeared a bit like a penis head emerging from its foreskin- Giger must have been proud: check at 1:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCqoA-FGgoc

except the Resurrection chestbursters have a more snake-like mouth than the original chestburster

Yes indeed dk.  Similar terminology is used in the prequel novel as well, below.

"More rectangular than circular, it was at present filled with the most expensive stew on the planet: an incredibly complex and astoundingly diverse melange of proteins, minerals, and assorted other biochemical spices that when solidified and knitted together would form the body of a synthetic.

An artificial human."

Alien: Covenant Origins, page 131.

Interesting. It seems to further blur the lines between humans and "artificial persons".

David had been on Planet 4 over 3,800 Days

The portion of the novel before the point where the supreme example (the ancient facehugger and ovomorph egg) is discussed, David's time spent on Planet 4 is covered, below.

"Hydrated, nourished, interested, Rosenthal discovered that against all odds, she was bored.

Wondering over to one wall of the downed chamber, she found herself running her fingers over a long row of hashmarks that have been carved into the otherwise immaculate stone. Each hash mark was exactly the same height, width, and depth as the one next to it – all three thousand, eight hundred, and some odd. No human could be so precise, and there was nothing about them to think that they had been made by the Engineers. The marks had to have been inscribed by David."

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 219.

"The line of precise hashmarks inscribed in the corridor seemed endless.

Her fingertips dancing along the wall, Rosenthal‘s hand rose and fell, rose and fell, as she traced the marks, letting them lead her onward. Lost in her own exploratory revere, it did not occur to her that she had left the domed chamber a considerable distance behind."

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 226.

Details from these 3,800 days may work into the best case theory with what happened on Planet 4 before the Covenant crew arrived.  

Great topic Critters5.  The egg had been discussed above so I tried to add a little detail in regards to the days David spent on Planet 4 count and how it was recorded.

Hi Michelle Johnston, welcome.  

"Case TWO.... Alan Dean Foster worked on his Novel of a Earlier Draft and NOT the Shooting Script for Alien Covenant, using this Draft he had ADDED a few things such as the Discovered Xenomorph Egg... ADF felt that evidence from the Draft and Prometheus pushed him towards the Xenomorph being Ancient and so he felt it was right to add the Scene about the Egg that throws David as the Creator in Doubt."

I'm leaning towards case two BigDave.  Great breakdown and the studio most likely left it in the novel to keep that space for debate.

It's tough to get a good shot of the Resurrection burster but it pretty much looks like the OG burster while being noticeably smaller It also had an umbilical cord which may or may not have been in the original? 

^ I agree with this statement

Amazing topic chli, thank you for posting.

Who created the Xenomorph?

The novel tried answer this question by citing an example facehugger and ovomorph found by David, shown for a moment when Captain Oram walked by it.  

Critters5 cited a video that mentions this here. Thank you Critters5.

A filtered screenshot of the moment the Supreme Example is shown to Oram, below.

The way this scene was set up in Alien: Covenant is a little similar to the scene in Prometheus where Milburn's "dunce" label is applied after trying to warm up to the black goo soaked hammerpede.

Why does Oram follow David?

In the novel, David sets Oram's nerves at ease a little by tossing an inert, petrified egg sac opposed to a viable, active one.  In the "first alien" deleted scene from Prometheus, Millburn captures a small, slow moving creature.  This sets Millburn up with the over-confidence seen when greeting the hammerpede with a smile.

Logically, why would Oram follow David anywhere after seeing a floating (but still beautiful) Rosenthal head?  

David appealed to Oram's sense of wonder in regards to science.

Captain Oram was Chief Science Officer of the Covenant mission before the flare incident (Dr. Shaw was also Chief Science Officer of the Prometheus mission).  Oram followed David down the steps because David convinced him he was safe after tossing him an egg sac and Oram instinctively caught it. 

David explained to the Captain that he could have easily thrown a viable egg for Oram to catch with active mutagen but did not.  Oram bought it. 

David Found A Supreme Example of the Facehugger and Ovomorph

"Challenged but still wary, Oram came forward. Gripping his rifle even more tightly and prepared to raise it at the slightest untoward movement from either the object or the synthetic to he leaned over to peer into the now gaping vase-like specimen the interior revealed a motionless creature, all fingerlike appendages and flattened body, with a muscular tail coiled beneath it as if it was ready to spring outward.

It did not move.

It was dead, as dead in preserved as David had promised. As dead as the egg sac the synthetic had tossed to him. Oram stepped back from the specimen, which seemed pregnant with hideous potential.

The synthetic's reaction was notably different. "Quite magnificent don’t you think?"

Quite something, that’s for sure, Oram muttered. He continued to gaze at the egg thing and its contents. As patiently lifeless as it was, it still manage to send a quiver of fear through here.

"Oh captain." David shake his head sadly. "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris."

"Would that I could create something so perfect in its function, he added. I try, but I don’t have thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. I only have my parable programming on which to draw. That, and 10 years of earnest effort on my own behalf. I have learned only a little, yet a soldier on, hoping all ways to achieve something like this, always striving to do better, to improve. That’s what the engineers did, I suppose.That is what someone playing God should do."

Alien: Covenant novelization page 243.

Ash admires its purity, and comments that its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.

From a certain viewpoint, the influenza virus could be regarded as verging on perfection. It too is a survivor, lasting for millions of years. Your body slaughters trillions of the little buggers, but the important thing is that their genome persists.

Likewise with the Xenomorph.

Well originally the chestburster in ALIEN had limbs but Scott had them removed. Hence why it look like it has fins because those where the remains of its shoulders while Alien Resurrection's queenburster was inconsistent with ALIEN 3's Queenburster. The Alien Resurrection Queenburster resembled a traditional chestburster somewhat while the ALIEN 3 Queenburster resembled a miniature Queen.

sorry i couldn't find a better image of the Resurrection Queenburster

Certainly there is no such thing as Perfection....per say!

You could have the most Perfect Holiday but there is always something else that could have made it more Perfect, you could have the Most Perfect Wedding Day but something else could have made it more Perfect (example a Recently Passed Relative or Friend could have made it).

And so with the Xenomorph it could always Benefit from Extra Traits that would make it more Perfect but your always going to have Flaws.....  i think the Perfect Term for the Xenomorph could be that the Organism can ADAPT to its Environment.

Who knows how more Perfect we would have seen Ridley Scott have explored the Organism... he had gone on about Evolving the Beast, Exploring Different Procreation and he had mentioned the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant would have REGENERATED.

So a Organism that Adapts to Environment, that can Regenerate and has Multiple Methods of Procreation would make the Xenomorph more PERFECT... but then there would always be room for Improvement and so NOT quite Perfection.

I think the Xenomorph is a Special Case/Organism that actually Evolves while Gestating to Adapt to its Environment.  So while some Organisms could Re-Evolve some Traits it predecessors had if they Benefit its Changing Environment with all EVOLUTION these things take  a LONG time to Evolve.

The Xenomorph seems to be able to Adapt/Evolve while Gestating and so has a Rapid Evolution and who knows if when they are ADULTS they cant still Adapt Further.

The Differences in Chest Buster could be from Different Stock as Certainly its implied the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant has some way to Evolve, but also throughout the Franchise the Chest Busters have also varied a little too.

Ignoring AVP and only using the Movies to consider this Next Point..

ALIENS we see the Chest Buster has Limbs and not Fins... in ALIEN it has Fins, and in Alien Resurrection it is hard to make out but more likely has Fins (apart from Queen), in ALIEN 3 the Chest Buster is from a Dog/Cow and has Limbs.  And so does Orams in Alien Covenant

LIMBS: Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Covenant.

FINS: Alien and Alien Resurrection?

Gestate/Birth on a Habitable World:  Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Covenant.

Gestate/Birth on a Space Ship in Space: Alien and Alien Resurrection?

But maybe thats a Coincidence... we never saw the LOPE Chest Buster if we had and it had FINS then we could maybe make a Connection.

I cant see the Reason why Gestating/Birth on a Ship or on a Habitable World (Natural or Terra-formed) would determine if they have Limbs or Not However....

So we could all try and work out what the differences are and WHY but they could all just be Creative Aesthetic that the Production has chosen.

The thing that could make SENSE for them having the Formed Limbs on a Open World compared to the Confines of a Ship with Fins could be that in the Confines of a Ship, the Snake-like Chest Buster is Beneficial for the Organisms to Escape and Hide... because no matter how FAST you are, when your in the Confines of a Ship eventually you could get Caught!

I enjoyed all the shorts although they varied in quality- but that is OK considering time and budget. I enjoyed all of them combined more than Covenant or Prometheus tbh. The shorts reminded me of what the Alien franchise originally was about- Sci Fi Horror- stuff that was suspenseful or could really scare with different twists. I can agree on much of what you wrote but I would rate the episodes higher. The characters in all episodes alone were way better than the last two Scott movies. The franchise needs to get back to basics like these episodes demonstrated.

I enjoyed all the shorts although the varied in quality- but that is OK considering time and budget. I enjoyed all of them combined more than Covenant or Prometheus tbh. The shorts reminded me of what the Alien franchise originally was about- Sci Fi Horror- stuff that was suspenseful or could really scare with different twists. I can agree on much of what you wrote but I would rate the episodes higher. The characters in all episodes alone were way better than the last two Scott movies. The franchise needs to get back to basics like these episodes demonstrated.

At any rate, both chest bursters from the OP came from humans but were different. So it seems the face huggers must have been from different genetic stock? The Runner and Deacon were pretty much fully formed but smaller when they burst. Same can be said for the back burster- not really sure about the throat burster though.(evolve/devolve- either way it is a change).

I would rather have a complete reboot to AVP that is more ALIENy and PREDATORy, I hate the first AVP with a passion.

I am among the few who like the first AVP and wouldn't mind seeing a good follow up. I would not want to see it in the proper Alienverse though.

I forgot I did this thread

To everyone that don't want hybrids, such as the dog alien. The xenomorph's DNA reflex is a stable of the xenomorph's biology since the original ALIEN unless you mean an unnatural hybrids like the ones in resurrection?

What I don't in the future ALIEN movies is to ever acknowledge that crapfest that was AVP (2004), that's all I don't want.

If James Cameron is working on an Aliens prequel then it could be a film adaptation of Alien: River of Pain or Alien: Out of the Shadows or both.  

Ellen Ripley Sees a Buried City and a Crashed Alien Ship

The novels are top notch but one exciting thing about Ellen Ripley in Alien: Out of the Shadows is this. below.

“‘It’s a ship,’ he said.
‘What?’ Ripley gasped. She hadn’t even considered that possibility. Buried almost a mile beneath the planet’s surface, surely this couldn’t be anything but a building, a temple of some sort, or some other structure whose purpose was more obscure.'”

Alien: Out of the Shadows, page 167.

“The entire left half of the exposed surface might have been a wing, curving down in a graceful parabola, projections here and there seemingly swept back for streamlining.”

Alien: Out of the Shadows, page 168.

A lot of this sounds familiar and could be a tie-in to Alien: Covenant but this could also signal an entire new direction for the films.

I believe it has to do with each story dk.  Great topic.

Religion was a big part of the storyline in Prometheus and I thought it had a great fit not only with Dr. Shaw but also with Dr. Holloway and Peter Weyland's beliefs.

Peter Weyland quotes above Friedrich Nietzsche with "I am a law only for my kind, I am no law for all."  It seems, Peter Weyland is chanting that he is above religion.

Dr. Holloway said in the Prometheus transmission interview that he wanted to "crush all man-made religions" and made clear his contempt for Dr. Shaw's beliefs.  

I thought all of this fit well with the concept of the Engineers and how they "fit" with what humanity has seen and what beliefs are held by the masses.  The Alien: The Cold Forge and Alien: Echo novels did not reference religion where I remember and those novels were spectacular.

Too bad he ruined his career with that political stunt

I mean its comical seeing it now but when I was a little kid, it terrified me.

I got what your trying to say but the terminology was what was bothering me. Evolution is evolution no matter if its a re-evolve trait or not, its still just called evolution.

This is super late lol but that is definitely Jussie Smollett in the shower scene. This was his first big motion picture scene. 

Ha Ha... Space Balls ;)

Seems that the Intention was for the Chest Buster to have at least Arms....