Comments (Page 321)

Necronom 4, I'm a little older than you but still too young to watch Alien in the 1970's so we both watched it for the 1st time around 1985 and yes, I like it too.

Here are some screen shots from the video above:

I was 2 when ALIEN was released at the cinema so no way of knowing before hand. Looking back, I first saw the film in, I think, 1985 (I just know that I was around the age of 8 at the time.)

However, the first time I ever saw Giger and his involvement in the film was in a British TV documentary about horror in about 1988. I think it was on BBC 1.

You know when you go, "ah, that's where that came from."

What can I say. I was an instant fan.

Potential original Giger drawings/evolution of concept....unbelievable. Great find.

The artwork in this bar is amazing. 

I love this, below.

Who knew?

"I thought Ripley being woken up between Alien and Aliens, and not having ANY mention of it in any of the following movies in the franchise timeline, was a bad idea,"

I thought it was a stretch too I Moon Girl but overall the novel was great.

I believe you will love Alien: The Cold Forge.

I believe the shape of the derelict ship and the Giger artwork concept fit but the shark-shape comparison is uncanny auximenes. 

Have we a consensus on the name of the additional moon(s) in the Acheron system?

This is a good topic BigDave...many storyline roads cross on LV-223.

In regards to communication, I still believe that the Weyland tech described in the novel, see below, was in place in 2094 and COMNET would have had every detail (Fifield and Milburn's romantic night together, David's access to the Engineer movie collection, and the last moments of the founder's life).

All communications are harvested, scrambled, and only a select few can decrypt it.

Chapter 22 Data Stream

“The signal came in clearly, reaching from the transmitters on the surface to the ship in geostationary orbit above the Sea of Sorrows. What came through looked, for all intents and purposes, like so much white noise. Sometimes that was inevitable, especially in areas where interference caused signal reflection and signal breakdown….

Andrea Rollins didn’t care in the least about white noise or interference. She did, however, pay a great deal of attention to the signal embedded inside of that synthetic static. Weyland-Yutani owned the patents on the devices that created that artificial signal, and on the hardware and software that could break it down into its component parts. It wasn’t a technology currently available on the market. Hers was the only computer on the ship capable of breaking down the coded information.”

Year 2497, Alien: Sea of Sorrows.

Return to LV-223

I can't imagine why David would go back to LV-223. I would like to see the company follow up to investigate on the ground on that planet and maybe the Engineers show up at that time with a great boom in the sky, then show their displeasure in the humans soiling their outpost.

The Prometheus: Fire and Stone comics tend toward this scenario, see below.

The comics and novels also tied together the planet LV-223 to the events that led to the collapse on LV-426 with finding the Onager from Hadley's Hope on LV-223. 

I believe that Weyland-Yutani Corp (post 2099) worked with Colonial Administration as the governing party over the planets humanity expanded to MonsterZero. That is from Aliens and the novels and there would certainly be a need to keep that space riffraff off your rock. 

Colonial Administration

Ripley’s inquest related to the Nostromo destruction near LV-426 was comprised of eight individuals on the official board of inquiry. This board consisted of “the feds”, Interstellar Commerce Commission, Colonial Administration, and “insurance company guys”. 

“The insurance investigator was possibly the unhappiest member of the board.”

Aliens novelization, page 27.

All that being said...I think we can all agree that Weyland Industries, Yutani Corporation, or the later combined entity would each have many secrets. And those secrets could certainly contain an unregistered planet to perform mischief on, away from the eyes of oversight (Colonial Admin., ICC). Sounds familiar.

I wonder if Weyland or Yutani claim planets? Mineral/water/land/tech rights....etc...

Building worlds is their theme...can't have claim jumpers/squatters gumming up the works?

It's a W Y planet...KEEP OFF.

Drones to keep the riffraff from settling or thieving. 

Excellent book!

My only problem is that it's too logical and well written, not used to such high standard in the Alien verse! :-)

@Batchpool 

Well I consider the facehugger as being the larval stage of the xenomorph, since the queen or a lone adult xenomorph is laying or eggmorphing xenomorph eggs containing facehuggers rather than chestbursters. I like to think of the xenomorph as the unofficial name of the creature, until a proper name is given in its place. Its ability to natural hybridize is just a unique feature for this "species".

But on that note: How much of its host DNA it is "borrowing" vs the rest of its DNA being "pure"

A: It copies its host genes that only appear in the post-pupa (chestburster-adult) stages but do not transfer into the next generation of xenomorphs

B: It copies its host genes and are assimilated into the xenomorph's genepool to where it can carry said genes to the next generation.

BigDave

I agree with your points, and it will be a challenge to guide the fanbase towards a Bigger Story, but it is achievable, with care and proper attention.

I LOVE what PROMETHEUS opened up, and as for LV-223, LV-426 and some possible insights...I have a story I'll be finishing up and publishing on Scribd that addresses the Engineers and lends some insights into their works...granted it's as I see things, but it's all pretty much a clean slate right now with very little to stumble over, franchise-wise.

I will say this:
Manticore's and Humanity's involvement with LV-223 isn't over, and while the answers I provide aren't Canon, I think people will find them at least Interesting and logical.

Chris

Thank-you for saying!! I really appreciate it and I'm glad you enjoyed it!! It was a pleasure to share this here and you're most welcome!! :D

IRaptus

No, not so far. But who knows what tomorrow's gonna bring especially with the the way the acquisition deal is stirring things up? :)

In the end, while such would be a real achievement, I wrote those stories for the Fanbase of ALIEN. You, dk, Chris and everyone else here that loves this franchise.

That was my primary motivation: To give you all a good ALIENverse story, and it continues to be my primary motivation as I work on ALIEN: Manticore 'Paradise'. :)

"is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs?"

I think this a interesting thing to ponder, we need to remember that Prometheus was trying to TIE in the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods Theory (Religion, Mythos) all stem from a Alien Species that have Seeded/Evolved Mankind.  Where they are trying that the Space Jockey Race is actually these Would-Be Gods of our Ancient Past.

And some Ancient Astronaut theories are that our Creators actually Destroyed the Dinosaurs so that they could then Create Mankind.

This is not as FAR FETCHED as it may sound, because RS had indicated similar, as he had said the Engineers may have Wiped the Slate Clean on Earth and Elsewhere a Number of Times.  He then proposes that was there LIFE on Earth before US? and asks about ATLANTIS

"Sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy"

Who really knows what that means and the Question  why the Engineers had to Destroy/Wipe the Slate Clean....   Depending on WHY they Seed/Evolve Worlds does lead us to Ponder that the BLACK-GOO is a pretty Desperate way to Wipe the Slate Clean and a bit OVERKILL especially if the Results are Potentially Dangerous Parasitic Creations that Evolve from the Bombardment (Neomorph Spores).

The Sacrificial Scene in itself is a Pretty Destructive Event, especially depending HOW you interpret this Substance, and if we look at how Alien Engineers showed us the Scarabs...    Then it leads us to seeing the Broken Down Engineer Molecular Structure is now Forming into something that can EVOLVE Organic Matter.

So we have to ask WHAT if a Organism be it a Fish, a Mammal or a Human was in that Water at the time the Engineers Dissolving Corpse Falls into it?   We can assume those Organisms would be infected with the Mutagen and Engineer DNA.

Does this Evolve them? or do they in affect become something New, "Sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy"

So in itself the Sacrificial Seeding we can maybe Assume would Act as a RE-SET Switch.  Which kind of makes using the Black Goo (that appears related to the Xenomorph DNA Ancestory) is a little Overkill.

I would think that Sacrificing Engineers and Collecting their DNA/Resulting Substance and collecting it into Canisters...  would Provide a Better Reset Switch as Life would be eradicated/evolved to take on the DNA that basic Life was Evolved with in the First Place.

Engineer DNA contained in Canisters Dropped on a New World, with only Basic Life would Provide the same affect as the Sacrificial Scene, juts more Efficient i think.

Dropping them on a Already Inhabited World would ACT as a Reset Switch.   And here in is WHY i think the Juggernauts/Urns are just the more ADVANCED/EVOLVED Method of Seeding Worlds.

"This will be my final post on the matter because this discussion goes round in circles."

Sorry you feel like that, i think it shows that there really is a lot of ways to explain/evolve things that Prometheus had shown us. I find it very interesting to listen to other peoples views on the Big Questions in regards to Prometheus and the Avenues it opened up, and i REALLY look forwards to when you have Finished your work, it will be interesting to see your interpretations and how you would have dealt with a lot of stuff that was BRUSHED aside when we got Alien Covenant.

There are some Fundamental things we have covered but still have room for more answers in the Franchise, so while Prometheus tried to explain and opened up some things it created  a lot more Questions which have Spurned many Debates that a Spoon Fed Movie would not have allowed.

1) The Sacrificial Scene, on screen we are indicated this is how Life Began on Earth, the Question of WHY was not answered on Screen in Great Detail and while we had David and Holloway talk about Creation in Context to why we Created David, while also proposing to Dr Shaw all you needed was DNA and a Petra Dish.   There was still room for WHY they Created us, and WHY they do the whole Sacrificial Route.  The WHY is something that Pretty Much can have many reasons for its one of Dr Shaws Questions she would want Answered, as well as the Audience...  While Ridley Scotts Comments, and other Sources of Information (Besides the Theatrical Footage) give us some more clues to chew up... ULTIMATELY this was on thing i think a Prometheus Sequel would have dealt with.  The Answer cant be as Mundane as because they could!

This also leads us to Ponder WHO/WHAT else they have Created and WHERE.

2) The Reasons for LV-223, while we are shown this place was used to Produce a Biological Weapon that was intended for us, and while again on Screen we only get vague clues to WHY, (it again is answered more in Interviews/Commentary etc) the 2000 years ago Coincides with Jesus Crucifixion is something that i think there is more to it than that.  But we have not had a Spoon Fed Answer, David Muddys the Waters with "sometimes to create one must first destroy" I think the WHY they used this place to Create a Bio-Weapon and WHEN is important, because the Star Maps are very strange to be left as clues to a Out Post that for what 35'000 years is where these Engineers are creating a Bio-Weapon that they lose Control of 33'000 years later just as they are about to use it?   LV-223 MUST have had another Purpose prior to being used to Create Death intended for Earth.  Again another Question that Dr Shaw would have wanted Answering.

3) Who made them?  Maybe No-One but its certainly something Dr Shaw wants to discover, and the set up does seem to be there could be more to Creation than just those Engineers.  This Question would Open up Possibilities to how many Layers of Creation there are, and Cement where our Place and the Engineers fit in all of this.

Again leads us to Ponder WHO/WHAT else their Creators have created and WHERE.

4) What does the Sacrificial Goo/Black Goo Represent, Creation and Death?  I think asking Questions of what this stuff really is, and its Origins are important.  Alien Covenant has kind of tried to paint a picture its just ONE Substance that is a Form of AI but we have to wonder what was the Origins and Uses of this prior to that Reveal or was it always intended as the Advent Claims.

5) The Relation between those Seeding Engineers, and LV-223 which in turn can get to wonder the Reasons and Differences between the Seeding Tear Drop Ship and the Horseshoe Juggernauts.  Is its really as Simple as ONE to Create and ANOTHER to Destroy?  The Seeding Ship and Method is very Ancient but its a bit Flawed, do they continue with this route? or had they Evolved it?  And how come the would-be Military Juggernauts have no Real Defenses, and dont Rise any Fear/Suspicion from those beings on Planet 4... is there more to the Juggernaught than a Weapon of Death?

6) How connected is the Prometheus Mythos in context to what is going on with these Engineers, we see Creation is linked with Prometheus,  that Betrayal is linked with Prometheus, we see that Stealing of Fire/Passing on Knowledge against the wishes of the Hierarchy Rulers is connected to Prometheus and also for this Punishment Bestowed onto Prometheus.  So another Question is HOW Literal are these things in relation to the Movie and WHO they apply to.  Again we can get some clues, but there is not a Spoon Fed Answer to be found in the Movie.

7) The FALL and in what context and to who does this apply, Mankind had Fallen and we had been given 2nd Chances, and Ridley Scott refers to the Engineers as Fallen, and so its a case of WHAT is meant by this and to WHO this applies. (all Engineers? or just a Faction). So WHO/WHY and HOW is important in context to the Fallen Ones.

8) What is PARADISE we know its a World related to the Engineers, that Dr Shaw and David were heading towards... A Place that could have led to Answering most of the ABOVE.... but a Place that Alien Covenant reveals a little about, but still retains some Mystery Regarding this place... as far as NO Direct Answer on Screen.

These all broaden out to a number of things, and they all could have a number of Answers, there was not laid down any Direct Answers/Routes although we can be guided to certain conclusions depending WHAT information we use/dont use and our own interpretations.  But these are the main things to Ponder that a Sequel COULD have in some part Answered/Started to, where it would likely have needed Engineers and Dr Shaw.  Many of these Mysteries were left in ways that was OPEN for people to interpret.  But you have to think to some extent they had INTENDED to  Answer/Show us some/many of these Questions.

Then we have the other ELEMENTS..

A) Which is WILL we get any more Clues to the Xenomorph Origins, and Purpose as to WHY/WHEN it was Created (because well for some this was not answered enough).

B) What Arc will David be on now he is Free, and the Discoveries, Revelations he has found regarding our Creators, and how Godlike they are not.  What Pursuit/Agenda David has now he is Free.  How have the events of Davids Creation, Upbringing and Freedom have upon him and his Journey, would he stick to any COVENANT he makes with Dr Shaw, or now he has KEYS to the Juggernaught and Knowledge about where our Would-Be Creators are ARMED with the Deadly Bio-Weapon they Created... what would he DO?

A continuation of this could be to ask what is a SOUL and what makes us IMPORTANT and the Creators Divine... or are we Important/They Divine.  So indeed to get us thinking about Creation, Soul and our Journey after Death.

Sadly Alien Covenant only really Focused on A+B and it appears these are the Emphasis going forwards, but it would be a Shame to not find out 1-8 in some way at least... but we shall have to wait and see.

In the Meantime these are things that have Spawned Countless Discussions, that really are open due to the Vague/Ambiguous nature of how they was handled/set up from Prometheus.   UNTIL these are all Answered in as Spoon Fed Manner as the Xenomorph Origins seem to now have been... there is room for Debate on them.

And i Michelle, truly have enjoyed your views on these and others and TOTALLY look forwards to your Novel ;)

PS i'm sorry if i may come across as Pushy with my Points, that is never my intention and my Grammar is not Great too and the USE of Capitals and Bold is only to Highlight and not Force Across Points.

Look forwards to your contributions in the Months to come and are very Eager to Read your Novel.  As i think you have a very good way of looking at the Themes, and i ma excited to see what your work is like.

This will be my final post on the matter because this discussion goes round in circles.

There is substantial narrative potential with the following:-

1) Elizabeth Shaws search for her answers and thats the simple version of whats happening with Elizabeth.

2) Davids search for a soul and thats the simple version of whats happening with David. 

3) The meaning of the teardrop ship.

4) The meaning of the planetoid (Prometheus and Alien).

"They are us we are them" they share a root language which David has already mastered so beings billions of years old can soon bone up on a branch of Indo European and anyway these guys have something in spades given they have terraformed and catalysed worlds for billions of years. There story is the difference between ... and ...

"Looking at it positively or what should have been."

Indeed those points are what in Hindsight were a bit to ambiguous for some, and with the Alien Covenant U-Turn its a case of some being changed and worry that some would not get explored.

"1) The derelict and jockey should have been signed off in the first film."

To a degree i think the clues was there but they was just not Spoon Fed/Explained enough...  and for some people they need the ANSWERS and not have to look at clues and try and conclude a Answer that they then have to Question but is this the right assumption.  To me i could see that LV-223 was connected to the Xenomorph, this Facility and its Experiments either came from the Xenomorph or eventually would have led to them.   There was for me enough evidence to suggest this was a event related to AFTER the Outbreak on LV-223 but it was also a case of looking at the Chest Busted Engineers in Cryo-Sleep the Hammerpedes and indeed using/looking at alternative Concepts and Parts of Alien Engineers as a Rosetta Stone where a little more clues and more Xenomorph connection to the Black Goo (Alternative Fifields not Zombie one) and it paints a picture that allows us to make more of a INSIGHT to what happened to the Space Jockey.

"2) What the Engineers Homeworld is all about in the second film."

This was the set up, but i dont think its as clear cut as going to the Planet of the Gods,  David knew of this place because the Engineer had said HE did not come from LV-223 but from a World that we may refer to as Paradise.  This leaves it potentially open to what that could be, i dont think its as clear cut so say  Engineers are the Gods, and this place is where the Engineers come from.   It was the Engineer in Prometheus who came from this place... this leaves the Door open that those Engineers are not the Overall Creators.  So this place may be just the Cradle of their Race, much like the Garden of Eden was for Mankind...   this does not mean its the Place of their Creators, or indeed the only Place these Engineers are Shacked up on.  So despite Alien Covenant we can still explore other Worlds of these beings.

"Less David more David less Xeno more Xeno less Engineers more Engineers is to miss the point we needed"

This certainly is one problem with the route they took to a Alien Prequel where it was to concentrate on more than the Xenomorph, first it was to give a few clues, but to expand to follow the Engineers Arc, with David and Dr Shaw on the way to be our Eyes/Ears to discover more about the Engineers.  Steering away from ALIEN...  to then Back Track to please some Fans, and give us Xenomorphs, but less about the Engineers, while making the Emphasis on David... to now setting up a movie that will be about David, not so much about the Xenomorph but then introduce the Engineers again, and then basically just join dots to Xenomorphs ==> Onboard Engineer Ship ===> ends up in Zeta 2 System.   YET! it seems a lot of people are FED UP with David and the Large Role he has in the Xenomorph Origins and so some fans are going to want Xenomorphs but reveal they are not Davids Creations, some Fans are wanting to see more Engineers and them being the Emphasis behind the Xenomorph... so its in a bit of a MESS at the moment.  Do they Give Fans what they want and Change Things Yet again? or Stick to their (RS) Guns?

"1) A powerful cohesive narrative. 

2) In a consistent and well thought mythos."

Certainly i think Prometheus set up a pretty Deep/Bold interesting way forwards, but with the Engineers Brushed aside, no answers for Dr Shaw, it seems the Emphasis is on WHO/WHEN/WHY with the Xenomorph Creation and then HOW/WHEN/WHY they end up on the Derelict, and so between that Logical Conclusion its a case of Can/Will they fit in any of that Mythos that Prometheus opened the Door too, that Alien Covenant kind of Closed in Favor of the Xenomorph and WHAT possessed David to Create it.

"3) Mediation and proxy by the characters that survive that we identified with and were interested in (Thoughts and Dreams consistent and correct request)." 

Indeed you do benefit from having Human Characters because thats who we are more likely to connect with and put ourselves in their shoes as far as what events they discover, what jeopardy they get into. A Story can Sink/Swim depending on Characters.   And its how they are written/cast and acted.   The Thing worked Wonders but its been kind of copied in a lot of Low Budget Movies over the years... as far as a Unknown/Unseen until its too late threat, and a Small Group of Humans Stranded and Fighting for Survival....  The Thing worked where Prometheus/Alien Covenant failed, and where Alien worked and Alien 3 too, this is the Human Characters.

As you mentioned before Michelle, we cant keep having a 3rd of a movie developing Characters that are not so well done, to then kill them off and then Potentially throw the Survivors Under the Bus/Carpet for a Sequel.  Leaving only a Synthetic to Survive.

Looking at the Set Up for the Sequel, then how this maybe has to Directly Connect the Dots to ALIEN we have to Question how do we get Human Characters we can connect with who will survive the next movie and make it to the 3rd Act or Survive the Final Movie that ties to ALIEN?

You can kind of see WHY they changed the Plot for Alien Covenant, because following just Dr Shaw, with Synthetic David to a Alien World to meet or maybe not, these (None English speaking) Engineers

They would have to ask, ok how do we introduce other Human Characters, this would be Hard if the Engineers World is on the other side of the Galaxy, as having Humans turn up on say LV-223 while David and Dr Shaw are Thousands of Light years away, so a movie that goes back/forwards between TWO separate Narratives would be hard.

We could have Gone to a Distant World and been introduced to more Humans, or Races that are very close to Human... but then its the whole Coincidence if they can communicate with Dr Shaw.  So you can see why they had to find a way to introduce Earth Humans to the Plot, and by then deciding the NEED to give us our Xenomorph Origins and in context to Chronologically taking place after the year 2093, has led to what we have with Alien Covenant and a necessity to bring the World of the Engineers onto our Doorstep.

I think the Change was a GRAVE ERROR by those working on the Project and in HINDSIGHT...  we could have had the same kind of Plot but set Hundreds of years latter, well certainly after the Time-Line of Aliens where a Human Ship, even a Colony Ship sets off on a much more distant mission, at a much latter time and so they TURN UP where David and Dr Shaw had been at least 50 years after the events of Prometheus, and end up in a Location that is NOT on our Door-Step.

We could then have followed a Plot of David Re-Creating something, and reveal clues to HOW/WHEN/WHY the Original was created by the Engineers, thus keeping the Derelict a Mystery a bit while confirming its Ancient Origins and Engineer Connection.

We could be introduced to the Engineers in a Sequel then where they Turn up in a Much Further away place, and in a Time-Line after the events of ALIENS, so that if they end up coming closer to Earth's Proximity it does not conflict with the Alien Franchise.

But Alas.....

According to the official film plot, Shaw is dead. But I think the filmmakers can change that in future movies/media. I've seen tons of movie/game characters getting killed off and then later be brought by some miracle.

For one example I can think of is Halloween H20 which was supposed to be the last Halloween movie. At the end of the film, Laurie Strode finally kills Michael Myers by decapitating him. And that was the end.

But then came Halloween: Resurrection and the film showed that Michael Myers faked his death by switching clothes with the paramedic and also cut the paramedics throat so he couldn't speak.

For another example, I can think of is Jun Kazama from Tekken series. At the beginning of Tekken 3, Jun was killed by Ogre and this led her son Jin (the game's protagonist) to avenge her. Before that, Jin's father Kazuya was killed by Heihachi, who threw his body into a volcano. Jin was supposed to serve as a replacement for Kazuya since he had Kazuya's moves. Since Kazuya had a large fanbase, the developers brought him back from the dead in Tekken 4 (I don't know how they explained how he survived the fall into a volcano) and gave Jin different move set. As for Jun, she also had a large fanbase. And when Tekken tag tournament 2 (noncanonical game) was announced, and she was revealed as a playable character, the whole fanbase went apeshit that the Tekken director Harada decided to change her status from dead to "missing".

Indeed your very right that there should have been a Coherent and thought out Plan, we just dont know what that Original Plan was because it appears as if a lot of things are being changed on the fly, and so there is a lot of Evolution to the Story, too many cooks in the Kitchen and what not...

Its still likely that when Ridley Scott and Jon Spaights sat down and worked out the KEY things as far as what lead to his drafts which included Alien Engineers, and i think its likely that when they sat down with Lindeloff while somethings were taken out, just because they was removed i dont think it changed the CORE/KEY Background Plot that they would/could eventually bring towards the front in sequels.  While the Scarabs were replaced with the Goo, they are basically still the same thing.

It just appears that during Final Shooting and indeed Post Shooting, that someone had decided to change a few things, maybe a change of plans/route but it still seemed that in their minds/in the background most of the Planned A-Z would have remained.

Alien Covenant however has changed some of that by changing the Plot to actually Focus on the Xenomorph Origins and bring this to a recent event and not a past event as indicated.

Looking at earlier drafts and deleted scenes does seem to paint a Picture that is different to taking only the Theatrical Release, but its one of those things/problems of using any such Material to Make Sense of it all, when they May/Should not be considered Canon.

Prometheus introduced a Mythos and Theme behind Creation with our Space Jockey Race, something that allowed them to Branch off and Explore this in a variety of ways, due to the Bold Plot and Ambiguity it meant NOTHING was set Concrete so they had Freedom to how to explore many things...  i think this in part leads to the PROBLEM of not being able to decide exactly how to cover these things and so brushing them under the Carpet with Alien Covenant was the easy/lazy route out.

So there was this Deep Plot that is more to do with WHY were the Engineers connected to Ancient Mankind and our Religions and Mythos, and exploring more about the Engineers in this context and the GENETIC GARDENERS of Space.  This is the Bigger Theme, but its a case of IF this is something we wont Focus on now and our Engineers will only Return to be Portrayed as Pissed Off Angry Dudes like we saw in Prometheus who want Revenge and then likely become interested in Davids Xenomorph for themselves.

So i worry our Engineers will only be explored and shown in terms of the Space Suited LV-223 guys, and maybe we wont really get any in depth exploration of their Race and Purpose.

But maybe its not over yet.... Ridley Scott seems to want to explore AI more than Xenomorphs, and i think he could propose the Questions to us about what really makes a AI, and show us its not all about Artificial Circuits and Programs... he could even show us that Mankind could very well had started off as a AI because RS was interested in Blurring the Lines between what is/contributes to a SOUL and what contributes to a Artificially Created Intelligent Life-form.  And when Ridley Scott mentions that REPLICANTS are AI it clearly shows that he views that AI is not about a Non-Organic Machines.

I think maybe RS was hoping to Drive us to ALIEN so that the Door can be closed on this, and then this leaves him open to Expand the whole Conspiracy/Agenda of the Company with a AI Curve-ball but also allows him to  then go back to the Engineers in more details.

In Hindsight a few changes to Prometheus they could have gave a Xenomorph Fix, and more clues so that the whole Space Jockey Event and Xenomorph Origins where not as OPEN to debate as they was with Prometheus.

Well Ridley Scott feels the Franchise should be were Star Wars and Star Trek are right now, and well a Franchise about W-Y, Ripley and the Xenomorph is NO-WHERE near enough to put it on that level.

However...... the path that Prometheus opened up regarding the Space Jockey being connected to a Ancient Race of Humanoids who could have Create/Evolved and interacted with Life on Many Many Worlds, certainly opens up the Franchise to some degree that Star Wars/Trek has.... because for that you need Multiple Alien Races and explore a number of Conflicts.

So indeed there is potential, but it is IF some CORE Alien Fans are willing to except the Franchise or in part a Spin-off will have to cover more than just Xenomorphs.

Going back to LV-223 i think we barely scratched the surface with this place, and while this World may not provide the Answers to the Engineers History and Ways.. well not everything.   It certainly could have enough to show us WHEN/WHY they started to experiment on Organisms related to the Xenomorph.   And i always felt this place would have been ideal to Re-Visit to give us less ambiguous answers/clues to our Xenomorph without having to Directly show us the Space Jockey Event but now we have a U-Turn where the events are Chronologically going to connect to ALIEN, then i feel LV-223's role is going to be purely a Plot Device as there has to be some reason the Derelict is in the Vicinity of LV-426/LV-223 just moments prior to the Space Jockey Event.

Very well done! Thanks for sharing this with us :)

hey Blackwinter-witch! 

Has Manticore been picked up by FOX/Titan Books/Dark Horse yet and about to be turned into a blockbuster #1 seller!

XD

I will yeah, starting to get curious about the newest Predator film :)

Predators are the talk of the town these days. Maybe check that forum out for some ideas?

BigDave

As always, you make some excellent and very well-reasoned points, and I agree with the core of what you said in that what the situation is right now 'story-wise' is akin to a Hydra from mythology.

One thing's for sure, Fox/Disney is gonna be pretty careful with the franchise, we know that much, which is a comfort. I've also heard that Disney wants to explore more of that universe, so we'll have to wait and see where that takes us.

Home is where the hugs are...  :D

That said, and I loved the Wizard of Oz reference BTW. :) ...

I AM working on the follow-up to ALIEN: Manticore. However such is suspended until summer's done with, as when it gets too warm, I cannot think. Tried working through it, and the results of that experiment proved that yeah, I should just wait for Fall to continue with it.

I also working on some ideas for other tales set in the ALIENverse, different people and places, but a better look into what lay behind that simple/complex word that names our fave franchise. ;)

It's a BIG galaxy out there...and the word-concept 'ALIEN' covers a LOT of ground.

@BigDave

I think you are collecting together a lot of different issues which are not all about the question of ambiguity.

Prometheus offered 1  3  5 7 10 and left out 2 4 6 8 and 9. Damon said in 2012 they knew what 2 4 6 8 9 where but their absence gave people permission to speculate until they made the sequel which never got made. 

To give some examples

 a In - the Engineers had a fall and all hell broke lose. 

 b Out - why and what represented.

 a In - Someone created them.

 b Out - who.  

a In - this isn't there home world.

  Out - we have no idea what their home world is like.

a In - there is a mutagen very clearly explained and given a serial number. Given what it does it cannot be the catalyser.

b  Out - How precisely do the catalyser and mutagen relate to each other we need to know much more about the catalyser to find out.

The story, the mythos turns on those issues.

Highlighting continuity errors, differences of scale and stuff in fun add ons and extras deleted scenes is quite separate. Indeed this whole idea of add ons has been brought to a new height of confusion in AC by marketing a whole series of drawings which probably have no connection other than they maybe Davids fantasies.

Looking at it positively or what should have been.

1) The derelict and jockey should have been signed off in the first film.

2) What the Engineers Homeworld is all about in the second film.

People need answers then build not sideways shuffle.

In the end the subtext of all this is the elephant in the room as to why no further films will be made.    

Less David more David less Xeno more Xeno less Engineers more Engineers is to miss the point we needed :

1) A powerful cohesive narrative. 

2) In a consistent and well thought mythos.

3) Mediation and proxy by the characters that survive that we identified with and were interested in (Thoughts and Dreams consistent and correct request).  

"Any of these planets could possibly be the place"

It has been speculated before that Planet 4 is LV-426 or Origae-6 is and i would be willing to BET this is not the case... i would say less than 5% chance, but who knows with the Writers they have.

All previous evidence, and even comments by Production (inc Ridley Scott) and drafts, all point to LV-223 being close to LV-426 and i see no Evidence in Alien Covenant to suggest that LV-223 is anywhere near Planet 4, certainly not in the same System.  Planet 4 is a Large Earth like Planet with many Moons,  LV-426 and LV-223 are Small Planetoids/Moons that Orbit a Large Gas Giant.

Origae-6 is also likely a Earth like Planet, but it could be a Earth like Smaller Planetoid/Moon... HOWEVER... it takes the Covenant another 7 years 4 Months to get to Origae-6 even if we assume the Covenant is Technologically only as Fast as the Prometheus we can assume Origae-6 is 3-4X Further away than LV-426 and LV-223 which are in the Zeta 2 Reticuli System and just under 40 Light Years away.

I think the Answers are pretty straight forwards....  Prometheus and Alien Covenant have shown us that LV-223 is a place that at some point some Engineers began to Appreciate and Admire a Organism like the Xenomorph and this place was a Testing/Experimenting Outpost.

The Plot is about Creation and Sub-Creation and the Pursuit of Perfection and David in many ways is a more Perfect Creation than Mankind and so in a way Weyland has Created a more Perfect being than the Engineer had in Mankind.   some Engineers had attempted to Create Something similar to the Xenomorph.....

What do these beings do when they discover a being more Advanced than their own Creations (Mankind) and then discover these being has created a more Perfect Creation than the Experiments on LV-223?

The Story of Hubris is evident and you can bet your bottom $$$$ that some Engineers may take a GREAT interest in Davids Creation.

Fans are disappointed in the Engineers lesser Role in the Xenomorph creation, they are more disappointed in Davids Role in the Creation of the Xenomorph.  Some fans were disappointed our Engineers got wiped out and also those Space Hippies as such just never looked as Awe Inspiring of Bad-Ass as our LV-223 Engineers.

Maybe more Fans would want to see BAD-ASS Prometheus Engineers again, rather than those more Frail and Technologically backwards beings on Planet 4.

FOX/Ridley Scott have paid attention to what Fans felt was MISSING with Prometheus... hence U-Turn to Covenant... so they could take things on board again...

So when looking at all of this it makes sense for...

Bad-Ass Engineers Return, come into contact with Davids Xenomorph, then take this Organism to LV-223 to Evolve it to the Bio-Mechanical Monster we see in ALIEN (have to ask how does it gain more Mechanical Look).   These Engineers in their Hubris Fall Fowl to trying to Obtain and Experiment/Evolve Davids Creations and end up as the SPACE JOCKEY.

This is the route i would GO... and i think it could be the route that THEY would have taken us... IF they was to continue.

Without the Sacrificial Goo there would be NO LV-223 Experiments, without the Experiments on LV-223 there would be NO Davids Experiments/Xenomorph and without the Engineers Tinkering with Davids Creation there would be NO Eggs on the Derelict.

Thus David is revealed to be only the MIDDLE-MAN so to speak, why they could even go the route that while David needed Dr Shaw to create a more Perfect Organism, than could be created from Engineers, it could go that Step Further that the Engineers use David (in a Walter Body) to provide the Missing Link between Davids Xenomorph and the Derelict Eggs.

This has to be the Logical way to Save Face with the Franchise.

"I very much doubt he'd return to LV-223, he wants to be left alone to 'create'.""

Indeed this really depends on what his Agenda is, and what he plans to do, and also HOW does his Creations end up in Thousands with just TWO Embryos... i think its likely he could have Snuck (or go back for) some Black Goo.... he certainly would not need to go to LV-223 for more Black Goo, as he would have some on Planet 4 still...   But IF they are continuing with Davids Xenomorphs = Derelict Eggs then they have to end up on LV-426 and we have to ask WHY its a Coincidence that the route to Earth would take him past LV-426... So we have to assume if they are going the Davids Xenomorphs = Derelict Eggs route that a Engineer Ship with those Eggs ends up on LV-426.... the only reasons for this would be.

1) LV-426 is a place that has a Storage Facility already there.

2) LV-426 is where David obtains a Engineer Ship (but we have to remember Engineers are on there way to where David is so thats the avenue of the Ship).

3) The Engineer Ship has to stop off to LV-223 to Re-Fuel or what ever.

4) The Engineer Ship and Davids Creation are to be taken to LV-223 for further Evolution/Testing.  (i think this is the most likely scenario).

@ali81

Indeed a lot of your points are what make sense... LV-223 has more to offer than LV-426, Logically IF the company are aware then they would pursue BOTH avenues.  IF they are not aware (which the Advent shows they would know Davids Experiments have a starting point with LV-223)  then HOW can they miss this place by the Time Hadley's Hope is set up... LOGICALLY the Place has to be Destroyed either by Engineers or Humans in a attempt to prevent Humanity getting hands on the Xenomorph/Black Goo and what ever else.

"Bishop informs Ripley that the company knows everything that happened on the Sulaco as all data is automatically relayed back to base. is this the case in Prometheus"

Indeed and so they (or some faction) would know about the  Advent Video David sent them....  when i was working on a Prometheus 2 i had it that Yutani who are shown to be active in Communications and Espionage have received Data from Prometheus Encoded as the Prometheus uses some Yutani Technology and so Yutani plan and send off a Mission to Explore LV-223 (take place in Prometheus 3) and i revealed that Weylands Brother and Nephew are not interested in Finding Peter Weyand because if he is deemed missing/dead and Vickers then they get to take over Weylands Share in the Company.  So as far as NOT sending any Mission back, depends indeed on WHO benefits and what happens to the Company IF the TWO CEO's are Dead.

LV-223 was a bit of a Conflict/In-continuity after Prometheus but with the U-Turn Alien Covenant Plot of a Direct Prequel where without David turning up at Planet 4, then we would have NO Derelict, NO Eggs...

Then this now makes LV-223 play a Key Role, because as you said, if we are going to END with Davids Creation being on the Derelict, then his Creations have to END UP on a Engineer ship that either has to be heading to LV-223 or Departing LV-223.  The Engineers are involved as they Return and we really have to ask what is their Agenda?

Surely they would want this place and all of Davids Creations Destroyed so Mankind cant get its hands on them?  But then if they also want us Destroyed because we are Space Faring Race now... then why not Destroy Earth First?

To me i think a HUBRIS must happen, where these Engineers take a interest in Davids Creations, and either taking them to LV-223 to Mass Reproduce or make into Black Goo Soup... to use on Earth... or they already have done this and are in the Process of leaving for Earth, when they Succumb to Davids Creation.  I think this Logically is what may happen.... but then its HOW does the Destruction of LV-223 happen and if its after the Space Jockey Event at the hands of a Engineer, then we have to ask WHY they have not came back to Destroy us.

...there's no place like home

Indeed and your right in that we have to be cautious with any Visual Clues, because who knows whats going on in the heads of those who make such decisions, was there a thought out reason/purpose for this and that or was there no reason for them?

So while taking things like the Mural, the Fresco into account and how you interpret them and then consider the Altar and WHY the difference between the Sacrificial Cup and Green Crystal and then which to you consider as a clue to include in any theory you have.  Any THEORY even if they make more Sense than the Reality/Intentions really comes down to what is considered Canon (usually mean Theatrical) and what the intention of such clues are.

So for Example Theatrical Cut, means we maybe should not take the Elder Scene and Dialog as a 100% Fact, the same applies with the Sacrificial Cup on the Alter... we have to accept the Green Crystal.

Then the Fresco... the Image of a Xenomorph Related Organism holding a Xenomorph Egg, was so vague and a split second that even pausing the Movie you could not make out what it was as the shot of this image the Fresco was partially disappearing, which means can we really accept a connection between the Fresco and a Egg?

The Fresco we do see is ambiguous, while we see a Organism that has some Xenomorph Aesthetics, it looks in a Submissive Position and some could interpret that it was a Creation of the Engineer, it certainly could show it CAME FROM the Engineer and so liken the Image as the Adam and God Fresco from the Sistine Chapel this certainly fits within context to the Creation/Sub-Creation and even alluding to the Xenomorph Origins has something to do with Experiments and Organisms these Engineers had Created on LV-223.

While this fits... such is the Beauty of the Ambiguity, that if we look at the Fresco again and consider the Prometheus Mythos...  Then the Angle of the Engineer, the Beaked Appearance to the Organism, the look of Despair/Pain/Sadness on the Engineers Face the position of the Organism, the Tear/Scar on the Engineers Liver Area then the Fresco reminds me more of the one Prometheus Punishment Fresco.  My interpretation is the Angles, and look on the Engineers Face seem to match that Fresco.

However and i guess you point reflects this Michelle if the Fresco and Murals are just EASTER EGGS then they can send us on a bit of a Wild Goose Chase.  I think the interpretation given above works within context to the Prometheus Mythos and how Ridley Scott refered to those Engineers as FALLEN and we know in context to Fallen Angels, the broad theme is a group who became Rebellious against the ways/wishes and intentions of their Creator or Hierarchy.  When looking at the Biblical Context those Fallen Angels were cast out and Punished to take on a Horrific Appearance, sometimes referred to as being turned to Serpents. 

So looking at the Fresco as a Punishment either SENT down to Punish those Engineers (a Organism) or a Corrupting/Contaminating of the Black-Goo by the Hierarchy that leads to a Outbreak/Infection that creates such Horrors in the Fresco... or also maybe the Punishment is not sent by the Hierarchy/Creators but is a Sign of Hubris.. that messing about with the Black Goo, in ways not Permitted had lead to the Creation/Infection that leads to that Fresco.

Again such is the Beauty of the ambiguity that you can come up with a number of things that could fit the bill.   Those Engineers look different to the ones on Planet 4.... so we could maybe look at those Prometheus Engineers maybe using the Black Goo/Creation Tool to EVOLVE themselves and a Benefit was their appearance and Bio-Mechanical Suits but then a Hubris was the creation of the Fresco Organism.

But this could fit with the Punishment too, we could look at one of the Punishment theories above and what if the intended Punishment leads to the Fresco Organism, which DID-NOT kill those Engineers off, but they then was able to Re-Engineer it to Evolve themselves (Bio-Mechanical Pressure Suits)  I mean the Engineers Plan to Eradicate us FAILED and Back-Fired...  So maybe their Hierarchy/Creators Plans to Punish those Engineers Back-Fired too?

Such a Wonderful Ambiguity with Prometheus that allows for many theories, i think ALIEN COVENANT kind of puts some to bed though.

So indeed additions visually are sometimes things we maybe CANT rely on too much, especially if they was just Easter Eggs.  For some Changes i can Speculate a Reason..

For Example the Sacrificial Bowl.... now in the Shot with Holloway his Object is Large, its is much larger to Holloway than it was to the Sacrificial Engineer... but its about the RIGHT SCALE if our Sacrificial Engineer was 12ft Tall. And with the drafts to Prometheus our Engineers were intended to be 12ft Tall but when the movie was shot, the Illusion could not be created with how Ridley Scott had shot the movie and so we could see our Engineers where not 12ft tall but 8ft Tops.... so this would be a good reason to replace the Bowl if its now out of Scale.... but then who is to say they could not have explained in a Sequel the Sacrificial Engineer was 12ft Tall, or what stopped them making a Smaller Bowl to Scale with a 8ft Engineer.  So the Change is still interesting.  We have to Ponder if there was another reason, more than just because the Bowl was set to the Scale of much Taller Engineers than we got.

Changes can be forced for things like this... the Engineer Scenes, where he was getting up from the Crash, Running across the Surface of LV-223 (No Mask/Helmet) and Scenes of him wandering around the Life-Boat looking at the Violin Girl, and Books etc...    BECAUSE Ridley Scott was not impressed with the Fight Scene which he Felt made the Engineer look a little Weaker than intended.... he RE-SHOT another Quicker Scene where the Engineer appeared more Angry and Aggressive and showed Dr Shaw to have No Chance against him.... but as this RE-SHOOT was done while the Engineer had Burns Make up applied (which he never had prior to the Trilobite Attack) this meant as RS was pleased with this Re-shoot which now looked like the Engineer was Burnt during the Crash and Angry as $"£%£$ .... this meant the other scenes with NO Burn after the Crash all had to be CUT!

When we look at the Full Scenes prior to the Re-shoot they could paint a different picture to our Engineer, but ALAS the Burnt in Crash, Angry Engineer is what we got and its what RS preferred as far as what these Aggressive %£$^$& are intended to be seen as from RS Eyes.

if you read the original script(the snark one) it was always supposed to be two different things. but meshed together in the final film.

@ dk

TY!!

Nice to be back! I'll be around here more now as things are getting settled. Life has it's myriad demands and distractions as we all know :)

I might wander off now and then, but the ALIENverse is Home. :)

Be it ever so dark-scary and slobbery...there's no place like home. :D

Blackwinter-witch

Hey YOU! Nice to see you back here again!

I'll stand by the decision the crew of Manticore made with regards to LV-223 and LV-426.

As for David, he's Out There...somewhere...with a Colony ship and 2000+ captives to play with, including the embryos.
I very much doubt he'd return to LV-223, he wants to be left alone to 'create'.

Here we go...

I moved things over to my 'Pen Name' account to simplify things...and forgot some crucial steps...again, I am sorry.

The links are set to open in a new window, just fyi, as I thought such makes it easier for people.

ALIEN: The Lander

ALIEN: Manticore

ALIEN: The Lander is a short stroy that directly ties-in to ALIEN: Manticore, just to say.

Doesn't matter what order you read them in as they are happening at the same time. :)