Comments (Page 371)

So they grew some grapes, they made and drank wine, then they got drunk, had sex (yes I know, but David has a big and strong... tongue) - who knows, perhaps they got married as well... And at the end of the journey David snaps her neck. Awesome... We see this in every movie. :/

Went to Covenant on opening day, Would probably do the same for Covenant 2... sure hope they make it. I'm not a huge Alien fan, But I'm extremely curious about the engineers. It's an unanswered question to me. 

No sweat ignorantGuy...I was responding to the topic synopsis and didn't remember April 8 in the Crossing. I really thought I forgot it.

I wasn't trying to be a technical @-hole either when you cited the script and April 8. I love it when the script and background information leaks out and we can discuss them and tie meaning to the concepts as kernel ideas that eventually became fruit in the film and promotional material.

We are singing in harmony regarding Logan not credited as a writer. His work made it's way into Alien: Covenant in a few ways. And, you're correct to question my interpretation above as far as "How do you know this?" regarding Dr. Shaw's anatomy.

That above is my interpretation of how they handled Dr. Shaw opposed to the original leaked script in the topic. 

The engineers should have better checked Fifields breathing apparatus, there was a certain chemical which made him a shame of the shame of the academic community (weed not goo, what did you think).

There is hope that they can introduce something else into the Picture...  

David Created this Xenomorph from the Engineers Black Goo... No Black Goo or Engineers and there would be NO Xenomorph... But also NO David and there is NO Xenomorph.

I think they need to introduce the Engineers or another Race above/below them, that has a Facination with the Xenomorph of Davids just like they did with the Deacon Mural in Prometheus... they See DAVIDS work as True POTENTIAL  but not PERFECTION and so this Race then takes Davids Xenomorph and EVOLVES it.

Delving into the Reason for the Mural in Prometheus, by showing us why these beings want to Evolve Davids Creation.

The Motes are just a sign of a those working on the story not having a great idea, not by one that they fully thought out...   Alien Covenant does not really explain the Motes well enough, not as far as what we see in the Movie.

The Spores do appear to be tiny particles/organisms that enter the Host, were we can only assume  they are somehow attracted to each other in a way that most of them merge and combine and this begins the development of the Neomorph.

When we see Davids Notes, and the concept works then indeed it appears this tiny insect like Organisms, are basically doing similar to what Spaights Nano-Scarabs are...  only its implied this Nano-Mote Insects are injecting something into the Host that Ultimately develops into the Neomorph.

This is kind of Flawed in some Logical..... unless there is some kind of interaction between what ever these Motes inject so what ever is injected either joins up with the others.... or some signal or pheromone is sent once one starts to Develop into a Neomorph so that the other Motes do-not develop more Neomorphs.

Otherwise we have to then Question why does a Host not Produce Multiple Neomorphs.

Regarding DAVID my replies to these TWO Topics cover my interpretation of this direction. 

http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/47508&page=2

http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/47518

I think some dont get what RS was intending with David as far as Prometheus and Alien Covenant and so some interpret that we have just a MAD ROBOT but in reality RS was trying to show us that David is MORE than a Robot....  Walter is a Robot... David had become a Sentient Intelligent Creation.... be that Synthetic and not Organic, bigger themes of Creation/Rebellion are at play and asking Questions about what constitutes Creation, After-Life and a Soul 

Indeed the whole War of the Worlds comment by RS was interesting, it would kind of be a conflict with the Alien Time-line especially in Aliens on-wards....  which got me worried RS may have considered Re-booting the Franchise after Alien?

The Engineer Height War i think can be put to bed by showing us they are a race who are 25% Taller than Humans,  but i really hope they can show us something different with the Space Jockey by introducing a Taller 10-12ft Race.  This Certainly gives us Humans, Engineers and another related Giant Race to bring into a War of the Worlds...  Throw in various Xenomorph related Organisms and it could be a recipe for something interesting.

But this maybe is stuff that would work better in a Game or Comics than a Movie Series?

I think what RS was trying to do was to keep some Mystery with the Xenomorph, and show us subtle hints in ambiguous ways to how it could have been.   And RS felt that exploring the Space Jockey Race was something more interesting and something that has NEVER been done before...   The Xenomorph had been done over and over, and all thats left was to show WHERE it came from and HOW it got onto the Derelict.

But Once you have Answered that then what else is there for the Xenomorph? So they decided to not directly answer it, but give some hints and then MOVE ON to explore the Wider Plot of the Engineers.   Ridley Scott planned to take the Franchise away from ALIEN and explore the Engineers instead.   We basically was going to have...

Etc <== Prometheus 2 <== PROMETHEUS ==> Alien ==> Etc

But Fans was not pleased at NO Answers and some also not pleased at not seeing any Xenomorph related events or actual Xenomorphs...

So Alien Covenant was a U-Turn to brush aside Prometheus 2 and Draw us closer to Alien which appears to be the opposite to what RS had intended...   I feel RS was disappointed a little by having to make his Prometheus 2 be something that would directly set up events to lead to ALIEN instead of steering away from Alien as intended.

for RS i feel that he felt the Xenomorph was diluted in the Franchise, it was relegated to being either a BUG or just a Bio-Weapon and so the Engineers as the creators were more interesting.

So the Question that RS felt was more important was the WHY, and so Why would anyone create such a Horrific Beast.  

Prometheus was a story about Creation, Rebellion, Sub-Creation and Retribution and Repeat... it appears with the Change to have David Create the Xenomorph fitted into the whole Broad Plot above for Prometheus, and brings home the Hubris of the Engineers.

Engineers create/evolve Mankind, we prove to turn  out not as planned and do things that the Engineers Disaprove off, so they used their Creation Tool to Create a Version of it intended to Destroy Mankind... This Failed and Back Fired on them.... at a Great Cost so they decided to Abandon LV-223 and the Weapon. 

Leave us to ROT instead because without help off the Engineers we could never Evolve enough to be threat...  But they was WRONG, we Evolved to be able to Travel the Stars and using the clues left behind we FOUND there LV-223 Outpost.

Mankinds Hubris was TWO-FOLD sub-creating David, who then becomes Rebellious and also trying to go off to meet our makers but only arrive at a place our makers had been concocting something AWFUL to use against us.

David becoming Sentient, and looking at how Fragile and In-superior Mankind is and also how our Creators are also Mortal After All..... Leads to David being Fascinated at the Engineers Creation/Destruction Tool.   The BLACK-GOO that was so Dangerous to the Engineers because it infects Organic Material, has NO EFFECT on a Synthetic and so it does not prove to be Deadly to David.   From this David then experiments and Creates his OWN Sub-Creation.

We have this Tale of Creation/Sub Creation..  Engineers ==> Mankind ==> David ==> Xenomorph.

And so RS must have felt that having David as the Creator was a sign of the Engineers Folly and Hubris...

No Humans or Destruction of Humans via another method and the Engineers would not have suffered at the hands of the Black Goo Outbreak on LV-223.

No Humans, means No David and so eventually the Destruction of the Engineers on Planet 4....     So in Hindsight/Hubris had the Engineers not Created Mankind then they would have been ALIVE as of ALIEN.

Mankinds Hubris is seeking out our Creators, and taking our Creation with us, which leads to the death of all the Prometheus Crew and now David having a Creation that will prove to be a Deadly Threat for Mankind in Future.

THIS ^^^ above is what i feel RS felt was the interesting route to take with Alien Covenant.

But ALAS.... it is nothing so ALIEN as what we all would have thought about after the First Time we saw the Derelict, the Space Jockey and those Eggs.

"Ridley killed this franchise by making it's universe exponentially smaller"

I think RS intentions was to actually Expand the Universe beyond its limited scope....   This was what Prometheus had attempted to do.   HOWEVER.... your idea is interesting, i think clues was there for us to Ponder these Engineers Genetically Evolving themselves (LV-223 Engineer Suits) and maybe a consequence of doing this too far created the Ancestor of the Xenomorph,  i think a lot of Clues to what DAVID had been doing is certainly something the Engineers could have been doing too...

Davids Xenomorph is NOT a direct result of the Black Goo, or those NEOMORPH Spores.   Its the result of Experimenting with the Neomorph Spores, and using the Black Goo to Create Hybrids, trying to use the Substance to Extract the best Traits from Various Organisms, and apply them to his experiments.  This really shows the TRUE Nature of the Black Goo as it was intended prior to Alien Covenant.  

It was a Creation/Evolution Tool...  Sacrificial Goo + Wolf then resulting Broken Down DNA is collected and used on a HUMAN and we have a Werewolf.

Sacrificial Goo + Reptile and then resulting substance applied to the Created WEREWOLF above and we now have  a Organism that is Half Werewolf and Half Reptile....   Do this again by Sacrificing this New Organism and using the broken down material on a Human and we end up with a Organism with 12.5% Wolf DNA, 25% Reptile DNA and 62.5% Human DNA

The other thing we see is that the Goo seems to take the best traits from a Organism and discard lesser traits and then Evolves this Traits.  (Worms Regeneration, to now Hammerpedes Rabid Regeneration).  So maybe our Creature created above would have more than 12.5% Wolf DNA if the Wolf has more useful Traits.

THIS... ^^^ is how the Black Goo works as far as my interpretations, which is also how the Nano Scarabs (that become the Black Goo) worked in Alien Engineers, Pre Prometheus draft.

so looking at this... and what i have attempted to show above, then indeed those Engineers could have tried to take certain traits off different Organisms and Evolve themselves, but maybe they encountered a Parasitic Organism, that then lead to those Earlier Xenomorph/Deacon related Organisms depicted in the Prometheus Murals and Frescos.

" Surely the advantage with a facehugger is that it renders someone immobile, and if a ransom is not paid within a certain time"

Thats certainly something very Original.....  so we could see some kind of Criminal Gang or Terrorist Group get its hands on the Organism.  using it as a Hostage for Ransom as you implied is a good idea.... it would be a Foolish Folly for the Criminals/Terrorist though, because you can almost see this back fire on them and then have to deal with the Threat they have unleashed.

I certainly think and its as i have said that you have to think of some new ways to deal with the Xenomorph and i feel even then we have to careful how much we do this.

The beast is cooked for me as far as the following.

*It no longer has that Scare Factor it had before, and especially after Alien Resurrection and the AVP movies it became Diluted, i feel Alien Covenant could have resurrected the Fear of the Original but it did not do the beast any justice. 

*It no longer has that Mystery/Enigma about it, this is a consequence of exploring its Origins, and Sadly when we look at the Engineers, the Black Goo and then David using this to create the Xenomorph, they all dont have that same Awe Inspiring Effect like when we first saw the Derelict and had many Questions in our minds to what this was all about.

We have seen a EVOLUTION of the idea behind the Xenomorph.

*Star Beast we are shown it simply is the remains of its Once Civilized to a degree Species, a highly evolved Species but a Deadly One, and with no Adults to Nurture it, then we are left with a Wild Beast.

*Alien left us the Enigma of the Derelict having these Eggs in some kind of Cargo Hold, and the Dead Space Jockey and it left us wondering what the connection was...  Creators? or merely someone who discovered the Xenomorphs?

After Alien (and more so after Aliens) Ridley Scott had confirmed to us that the Derelict was some kind of War-ship the Cargo a Biological Weapon.

*Aliens introduced the kind of Insect/Hive aspect which could make us think this was a Organism the Space Jockey used purely because of its destructive nature, or was they Engineered like this by them.

*Prometheus introduced us to the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo which on one hand was shown to be used to Create/Evolve Life, and on the other was shown it can be used to Mutate/Evolve Life but by doing so it in effect KILLS the Original Life. The movie also implies this substance is used as a Cleansing Tool a Bio-Weapon to a degree and it is connected to the Xenomorph DNA in some way.

*Alien Covenant seems to imply that this substance not only destroys but creates hybrid forms of the Xeno-Virus and by experimentation and cross-hybridization David ultimately creates the early form of Xenomorph.

We cant be 100% sure where Ridley Scott was going next, but it appears he would be sticking with David creating the Xenomorphs, and that the Beast would go through some upgrades before it becomes what it was in ALIEN and i think RS was going to portray it as some AI Creation that is Engineered by David.

So it looks like the Xenomorph to David is no more of a cross between what David was to Weyland and some Hybrid Organism created from the results of the Black Goo Pathogenic Mutagen.

David would have to crate the Tickle-Morph

haha, hey big guy *tickle,tickle*

The engineer would probably think WTH?  Or give a look of death. Or possibly like it and that's when you realise that this reaction might be scarier than a look of death ...

Dark Nebula: Ha ha ha! Imagine if Jonesy would have bursted out and that the Xeno was the space pet. :D

When Ripley is going to face the evil cats on LV-426 (to the Xeno): “"And you, you little shit-head, you are staying here"

The Xenos seem like our best friends compared to an army of angry Joneseys. They have paws and they are coming for you and no one can hear you scream!

DK: Maybe a bit off-topic but anyways. I enjoyed the Weyland TED-talk because it showed us what he was about. Unfortunately they did not include that in Prometheus. They could at least have had a shorter version of it because it sort of explains him.

Lone: Maybe it is about finding the right story? I am not sure if they shall show it too much though since there are other monsters that they could have also.

Characters is number one that gets into a situation of terror. I would like it to be a variation of a morph but maybe one that has just got some features of it (take the Squid as an example) since it would be repetitive to see the Xeno over and over again.

The black goo is interesting but I hope that we never get an explanation of where it came from. It is perhaps even more interesting than the monster it self, at least that is how I look at it. Some things should be left to the imagination.

I hope that we will get to know some more about the Engineers but the got to be done in a way that is interesting.

Alien Covenant could have been good but it just turned into a movie a bout a mad android that wants to create things and hate mankind.

Now they have added a certain amount of explanations to it but they could add some tings about it that we ever will know the answer too. In this case it could be kept un-cooked so to speak.

You mean prequels, right? I agree that he messed up by making David the creator of the Xeno, that is so lame so I don't know what to say. Hopefully they will make it so he did his own example from some sort of Engineer recipe, that could save the prequels from being a disaster. Unfortunately if Ridley will be allowed to stick to his idea then we will have the Xeno being a crappy result of a mad AI, which sucks. If this will be the case then I will throw away the prequels and pretend that they never happened.

"… shall we say nudged onto the current path!"

Which means what more exactly? My native language is not English so therefore I wonder what you mean.

I don't think that he should have anything to do with the story, otherwise we will get some bad things like David created the Xeno. Let him do the visuals, he is good at that.

Codexas: You can always throw the prequels away and pretend that they did not happen if they will end up crappy. Hopefully they will force Ridley to correct the most dumb idea namely that David created the Xeno so that will no longer be the case.

"And let's bring an end to the Engineer height war."

I bet that topic will be brought up again some time.

Dark Nebula: A humans versus xenos versus Engineers could work, it depends on how you do it. A problem is tat many ave their own opinions so it is a thing were people are divided. Hopefully we will have more Engineers in the next movie. As far as canon they should keep Alien 1 to 3 otherwise it would suck.

@Ingeniero

Sorry for not being clear regarding the April date... I don't think we can be sure about anything about lore as it might be changed if a third movie is made. However, the trilobite could have been only mutated sperm which is not infectious, for example...

And to be an @-hole, why is Logan not credited as a writer for the Crossing when lines are clearly taken from there?

Interesting:

"Deep-Space Colony Ship USCSS COVENANT CREW: 14, +1 SYNTHETIC
PASSENGERS: 3600
MISSION: Terraform and Populate DESTINATION: Origae-6

DATE: 2103, 239 light-years from Earth"

"In a darkened PASSSENGER CRYO-STASIS HOLD, a kiosk beeps, awakens. NAMES SPILL OUT on a screen crusted in ice. Dim green light flickers out over 3600 CRYO-PODS, under a thun blanket of snow .. The pods sweep up along the huge curbed wall, defying gravity..."

There are obvious items that were changed for the Crossing but it is interesting to see the thinking before the re-write. It is as if they took small details of the Logan Crossing draft and worked them both into the Crossing and Alien: Covenant. 

I see what you're referencing now regarding April 8 in the Logan script now ignorantGuy. I thought I had missed that in the Crossing.

ignorantGuy, Dr. Shaw was barren, unable to have children.

Then she has a child/trilobite born in a day. Body changes. My assumptions above were based on these changes not being confined to a single day of horror from the mutagen infection from Dr. Holloway. 

You may be correct. Shaw was infected, cured like no other in the franchise, and then infected again by David on Planet 4. 

Yet more talk about characters in the future, yet to be born....nice.

Where is April 8th in the Crossing?

@Ingeniero

"Dr. Shaw was not cured of the infection that bore the trilobite pulled out of her in the MedPod. So, whatever changed her to produce the octopus demon that took the Engineer would continue to change her body."

How do you know this? What we know is that Shaw repaired David after sometime, at least month after Prometheus, we know this because of the longer hair in the Crossing and in the leaked prologue it is stated the date is 8th of April (which curios as Easter falls on the 4th in 2094, thank the Goo that David is not also Jesus). Yet, anyone depicted as being infected dies/is transformed within a day/two... I haven't seen Advent to notice other sign of infections on the body of Shaw, but there should have been if we look at Holloway and Fifield, or the Engineers. I don't know what was on her head, but it might be the results of David's experiments. 

But the most for me the most fascinating thing in the prologue is the display of engineer tech. Running water, air, fruits growing on strange whines, a very nice contrast to the "primitiveness" of the Covenant.

Yet more talk about dead characters...

@Batchpool +1

I thought that i was the only one who thought this way.

I would really to see how xenomorph evolved after decades or even centuries of life. Would a decades old xenomorph drone become sentient ? Would it become way more than just a killing machine ? 

The queen in Aliens seems to be smart enough to understand the deal Ripley wanted to make with her, in order to escape. And it was a relatively young queen leading a small and young hive.

I would be curious to see how smart/sentient can decades/centuries old xenomorph be. Will they be able to build strategies advanced enough to beat an human army ? Will they become resilient to the marines weapons or find out efficient counter measures against them ?

I would really annoyed and disapointed to see another alien xenomorph showing the same cycle. Ridley wasted an opportunity with Alien Covenant imho. Instead of wanting to piss off fans, he could have shown a radically different type of Xenomorph and/or xenomorph cycle !

Imagine a very ancient sentient Xenomorph, trapped by the engineers, which escape from captivity thanks to David attack of the Planet 4  and which will make a deal with David in order to build a weapon based on its dna to destroy engineers.

Overall, I agree and prefer the mystery to Dr. Shaw's fate with the shock of walking up on her in David's lab Leeta as it was shown in the film. I also like the "warped love" from a synthetic that was designed to project emotions that has gone mad.

The altar to Shaw in Advent is great.

Dr. Shaw was not cured of the infection that bore the trilobite pulled out of her in the MedPod.

So, whatever changed her to produce the octopus demon that took the Engineer would continue to change her body.

This could be seen with the obvious changes to her head in Alien: Covenant in addition to the the changes to Dr. Shaw made by David himself.  

I wished to see more of the interaction between Elizabeth and David in how they left LV-223 and certainly wanted to read about it in Alien: Covenant Origins but this too added to the mystery. 

I'm convinced that David was just playing along and had Dr. Shaw work with him in the navigation above to placate her.

Whatever he told her would have been a lie in regards to her navigation participation and he knew he needed an organic host so I guess he kept her alive and altered the Engineer sleep chamber to house Shaw before her health collapsed. And protect her from the mutagen bombing.

The Engineer that Peter Weyland met on LV-223 survived the "incident" long ago that killed many Engineers while the lone Engineer was asleep in the hypersleep chamber.

I can only assume Dr. Shaw was protected during the bombing while in the hypersleep chamber. Hopefully the Engineer robe David made into a sleeping bag for her is really padded because I can imagine David's juggernaut landing on Planet 4 was turbulent.

Thanks, Ingenerio! I basically agree that this script featured a pretty fitting send off for Shaw. 

Then again, I see Leeta's angle. It's a little more horrifying and harder to handle that we don't know what happened. It was presumably a drawn out death too. I could imagine this leaked scirpt ending with the bombing, but instead of Shaw dying it could have ended on her waking up (or something) and seeing the tail end of David's work. The last two shots could be Shaw's shocked, horrified face and then either David's tear or some cynical snear. 

I really like the little details that were in the draft but I prefer David having a warped love turned deadly for Shaw than him just turning on her like that. And him killing her because of rejection, in my opinion, and not being able to cope with the feeling seems better to me. I also didn't mind the mystery of her death. 

"David drops the act once they arrive at Planet 4. He snaps Shaw's neck and bombards the Engineer city."

I expected something like this because turning on Dr. Shaw in an instant seemed to be the most reasonable action from David. 

One of the things I liked about the Dr. Shaw character was her ability to convince herself of things (regarding the Engineers, not her faith) and somehow with the best tools, success was guaranteed and she was correct in all her assumptions. It was then realistic to me because I could relate to that mistake. A lot.

So, the loneliness angle and David taking advantage of it seemed the perfect prelude to turning on Dr. Shaw in an instant.

Thank you cuponator3000. Nice topic.

Saying or doing anything to get his way. That is a great way to put it. 

I believe David would say anything to get his way dk. And take part in any joke, threat, or whatever was thrown at him.

He can cry pretty good and the tears might as well be made of glue.

Interesting points. I like the ambiguity.

True story time and is somewhat humorous- I could imagine David responding the same way. A gay friend of mine was verbally sparring with a homophobe. It all ended when my friend said, "Honey, I can be more woman than you can handle and more man than you could ever hope to be." He then did that weird Hanibal Lector noise. LMAO! I could imagine David being that way.

In regards to "first of its kind", that may reconcile with the David 7 model announcement in the timeline, above, and the meeting shown in the beginning of Alien: Covenant, below.

The meeting above could be the 1st David 8 produced (and last) personally for Peter Weyland while deploying David 7s to the general market.

I love the Engineer standing aghast in the background. 

"I think best case scenario, she arrives and no one is there. They vacated. Because I doubt they’d be willing to reconsider keeping Shaw alive if she keeps a talking head with her as a translator."

That is funny.

You never know...the elders could take Dr. Shaw on tour in the populated areas of Planet 4 (maybe even off-planet) like a ventriloquist to entertain Engineers who have no vibrant-colored clothing.

These guys above are in desperate need of some comedy or maybe a romantic drama acted out by Dr. Shaw and David's head. Or she could juggle the head and a couple of urns...

That is another great comparison Dark Nebula.

We missed out on a Jodorowsky's Moebius Dune.

Thank you for saying that V I N E T I C U M. My pleasure.

daliens - 'I think they will bring back Ripley too in case they will ever bother to pay for another Alien film.'

I feel your pain, I have to agree with you.

Asking Timothée Chalamet's little finger to play the lead in the next awesome Alien movie seems to be a better idea than creating and using a CGI Ripley, beyond doubt.

Timothée Chalamet:

Timothée Chalamet's little finger:

I must go further - I hope Ridley Scott sees that his Blade Runner 2049 sequel needs Timothée's face:

I have to agree with you, Ingeniero.

S.M is an incredible creator.

finally printed a cover after struggling with a shitty printer.

Thanks BigDave

But its open for RS to explore Davids Relationship with it and have it that David is interested in its creation and to Nurture and Evolve it.

It seemed to me that David was very interested in studying the xenomorph, tried to imprint on it even. He said in Advent that these creatures would rule the galaxies, so he did regard them as more than weapons, but rulers.

I wonder when did he send the messages to WY we see in Advent. He could have done it much later, after he arrived on Origae 6 and was prepared for a confrontation with WY. He used Walter's code for the reports in the meantime,  as we saw at the end of Covenant. 

We should see as well how the xenomorph from Covenant gets the shape of the Big Chap from Alien. That's among the few things still not cooked about the beast.

I also generate ideas of different nature, but then remain in the folder under new supervision.
I usually use a notepad on me for any inspirations to mark and add to writing.
BigDave I know this is difficult to achieve but I'm sure the world wants to explore new horizons and you could be an instrument that wants to explode in 2000 ideas.
thank you for having been close to me since the beginning.

"Au Revoir Shoshanna"