Comments (Page 217)

@chli Why ask Haag? Wasn't the cathedral Steven Messing concept? Wasn't Haag also the one that said something along the line that Covenant shifted back to what was important, namely David? 

"BigDave: Yes, it would be interesting to hear what Haag has to say about the temple on "Paradise". What was it's function?"

I would not just be asking him about its Function!

I would be asking WHY the Concept works seemed to depict other beings than our BALD Engineers and WHY in these there are NO Engineers at all.

I think many Fans do still TRY and bring the Prequels around to the Xenomorph or Related and Assume the Center Point has to be about Sacrifice to Procreate these Monsters....  I feel this is NOT the case... bare in mind that the sequels was to STEER away from the Xenomorph.  We have to assume the Xenomorph Shinanigans was something the Engineers got caught up in a LONG time after they had set out to Seed and Evolve Life on Worlds and Teach their Creations various Knowledge.

I also think knowing HOW Deadly the Xenomorph is and Black Goo Created Monsters...  And looking at Planet 4 and what means they have of Containment... it would be VERY FOOLISH to Host Eggs or Related in that Cathedral.

Certainly the Cathedral is a Center Point to the Engineers ways and Rituals, their Ways and Rituals seem to be about Creation, Seeding Worlds and this required Sacrifice.

IF look at the Prequels... STRIP everything related to the Xenomorph out, and look at only what could connect to a Plot that Mankind was a Creation by some Alien Humanoids, and we was Created in their Image and the Sacrificial Scene (inc the Elders too) is KEY to how they Begin this...

Then PLANET 4 and LV-223 will start to make PERFECT sense ;)

The Reaction to the Juggernaught by those Engineers makes sense, the Juggernaught as NOT a War Machine will make Sense.

"By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind"

I think this is one of the MAJOR Questions that would have been answered by a Prometheus 2 the Engineers Plot and Agenda is still very Ambigious

One Major Question would have been WHY did they NOT come back and FINISH the job?  The Logical Answers would revolve around.

*Do those Engineers on Paradise know about the intended Destruction of Mankind, and they also seek the same?

*Do those Engineers on Paradise know what became of LV-223 and those Experiments, was it always a place to Experiment with Xenomorph like Horrors?

*If they was aware of both counts.... could they have determined the Method of Destruction that was something they COULD-NOT contain was deemed FOLLY and they ABANDONED the Complex.  (if this was the case its likely the arrogant Engineers would feel that without their Help Mankind would NEVER evolve far and become a Threat and we would just end up Destroying ourselves so they leave us to ROT).

These are things i had pondered and discussed on here a number of times prior to Alien Covenant.

The revelations in Alien Covenant, and from RS comments would maybe shed some light on the FALLEN ANGELS aspect, maybe by Virtue of the LV-223 Engineers being as such.  RS had mentioned that they are NOT the original Engineers and that those Planet 4 ones are and so maybe their is a similar connection between Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 as there is with Humans and David?

For me i see a lot of evidence that connects to the Creationist Plot rather than to Center around a Xenomorph Bio-Weapon Infatuated Race of Engineers.

Maybe i will have to Start a Topic on that subject. but its something i had mentioned on various topics quite a lot especially after Alien Covenant.

"At the end of Prometheus, Shaw has 2 things left her faith"

Certainly i forget to indicate that i meant she had NOTHING as in to go back to Earth for ;)

She certainly clutched on to her Faith in spite of revelations and certainly wanted to go to discover these Engineers for Answers.  I just wondered if she could have had Children would that had affected her a little?

Regarding her having Children on Planet 4, this was just something i wondered when we saw this leaked image.

some Speculated those Skulls in the Bottom Left Corner could be some Native Primate, i noticed they was actually Very Much Human Infant Skulls... that got me to wonder had David managed to allow Dr Shaw to bare Children but then he used them for experiments?

But seeing latter images that confirmed Female Engineers i realized maybe they could be infant Engineers too.  Which with the release of AC and Davids drawings we had this confirmed.

I do think potentially David could have tried to offer Dr Shaw something similar, in that he could help her to Create Life, and you are VERY right in that she would be Very Cautious considering the last time he played  apart in anything similar he was responsible for the Trilobite so there is a Great Chance she would say NO!

And this pretty much may be something that happened, it depends what is meant by him offering to Create a New Eden.... because he also said he wanted to Evolve her but she declined...  some of his drawings of Dr Shaw do depict her as being MORE than Human but in NO way a Xenomorph... so maybe he felt he could Evolve Dr Shaw to become a Hybrid and then with her Create a New Civilization of Hybrids... which she REJECTED!

It appears from his Workshop and Drawings that he had been experimenting with Engineer Infants, it was said that he felt the Engineers Biology did not yield as good results as a Humans....

so we could Speculate exactly what this meant.. it could be as far as a Face Hugger + Human Host... but then it could be Human Egg Cells for Experiments... and who knows maybe he could have used her to create some Off-Spring.   There is the Potential that Engineers and Humans could be Compatible or if not quite.. maybe David could discover a way to do so.

But this is all Speculative... Certainly David had some ALIVE Engineers to experiment with, including Infants.

Who knows what POWER the GOO has and how well David knows how to use it and Manipulate it.... if he has any of Dr Shaw's DNA then maybe he could use this with the Embryo's to kind of Create a Clone of her?

Hallett and Hatton were quite ambiguous to Davids drawings of Dr Shaw, suggesting maybe he Resurrected her over and over, maybe he Cloned her or maybe they are just his Vivid and Disturbed Dreams/Fantasies...  One of the Alien Covenant Drafts indicates the latter.

"By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind, or may even have issued the order", who it is reasonable to believe that? If the Engineers don't live by some method for thousands of years those who issued the order is long dead. We also know that the Engineers abandoned their goo Armageddon habits from Advent at least 2000 years ago as they never tried to nuke Earth again. And there also is the possibility that the LV Engineers are a rebel group (the fallen angel variety). 

David however could be still be following a secret directive unknown even to him, as it was suggested sometime ago.

And why nobody brings up that he signed his Drawings as David Weyland, pretty much wanting to inherit something he hates.

@BigDave

At the end of Prometheus, Shaw has 2 things left her faith (probably in a benevolent God) and the need to find what above the Engineers in the creation ladder. That is more than nothing and is motivation enough to begin her dangerous journey to find them. To exchange that with being experimented upon with a weapon by the synth she knows killed Charlie in the faith hope she could procreate sounds very iffy to me.

"it is a shameless plug."

Ha Ha indeed.... but its nice to see such Decent Low Budget Attempts...

I think Disney could make a few little Shorts, that Tease/Cover some aspects related to the Franchise... they could then Gauge Reaction to these to Determine which thing the Fans would adere too and which things would be a Waste of Money if they Centered a Movie around.

Look at the ALIEN 40th Anniversary Shorts, surely Disney could release say 4-6 such Shorts that cover different aspects of the Franchise, Each being 3X Longer and 3-5X more Budget.

If we look at the  Short... and imagine similar little teasers like this done in Alien Analects Live Action then they could see HOW the Fans  React...

The Anniversary Shorts seem to be more ALIEN based, but they could do some more to cover other Aspects of the Franchise... Engineers, Interaction  between Engineers and Humans some Experiments on LV-223, the Engineers Experimenting with other Kinds of Humanoid Creations.

Colonial Marines on a Bug Hunt Short (not Xenomorphs) or a Training Camp Short with Banter that shows say a Young Sergeant Apone

We could cover AI as in Synthetics in a Short..

Weyland-Yutani Rivalry...

The List is Endless. They only have to be 20-30 Minutes and then Disney could use them to GAUGE what Fans would be more inclined towards...

However i think for the most Part Disney would consider that the best Venture would be another BUG HUNT!

I would Gladly come up with some Various Shorts. I could not contribute to the Anniversary Competition due to my Location.

"I don't see David using the two Facehuger Embryo's, the 2000 colonists and their embryo's, or any samples of the black goo to create any variation of the human race"

We certainly get that idea.... and having Today Finally Discovered and Read the TWO Drafts for Alien Covenant it does further paint the Picture that his Agenda is purely to Perfect and Mass Produce his Masterpiece.

If this was his Agenda... what kind of a Movie does that make? he would also had been wise to NOT transmit the Advent Video until he has Perfected his Horde of Xenomorphs.... unless he uses this as Bait thinking the Company would go to LV-223 and Planet 4 and the Horrors there would be Mankinds Downfall...  the Company being more Interested in this than to pursue David, so that he has more Time on his Hands to Perfect his Creation.

I was more drawn to things like how David had offered Dr Shaw a chance to Start a New Eden, from the Ashes of the Engineers World and how he would offer to Evolve her.

Before the Sequel... i had always looked at WHY it is Dr Shaw wants to find the Engineers... the answer was she has NOTHING else left!   However.... if she could have been able to have Children would she still had wanted to go to Paradise?

So i always speculated that maybe David would offer Dr Shaw a means to be able to Procreate, in that he could find a way that SHE could have Children.

Time Passes, and we get to the Sequel, well the Build up to Release and we saw those Leaked Images from his Workshop and i noticed that those Tiny Skulls looked more like Human Infant Skulls... so then i Speculated on here that maybe David indeed manages to offer Dr Shaw a chance to CREATE...   If he could use Engineer DNA with the Pathogen to Create Humanoid Fetus from her Defected Egg Cells.

It was only after the Release of Alien Covenant and revelation of Female Engineers that David had examined and infants that those Skulls were in FACT the Engineers Infants.

So i was wrong on that Theory... but for David who loved Dr Shaw and Dr Shaw having No Children i felt it was still something that could have been explored.

When i then look at the Comment by David about how he had offered Dr Shaw the Chance to Create a New Eden, i wondered if he offered her a Chance to Birth some kind of Humanoid, maybe Hybrid... surely Dr Shaw may have been open to that?   She surely would have Rejected being used to create Xenomorph, Deacon and Neomorph like Horrors and David would surely knew She would Reject such... 

So i wondered what kind of Eden did he offer Dr Shaw?

I look at how he viewed his treatment by Mankind and Weyland and how he looked at Dr Shaw... it appeared that he felt Mankind was not a Worthy Race for the Most Part but there was some who he had Faith in.. such as Dr Shaw.

I then look at his comment to Daniels in regards to "what kind of world" they could create/build.... which he replies "if we are kind, it will be a kind world"

This led me to speculate that maybe he would not be purely looking to Create Xenomorphs, i wondered what plans he would have... but with Daniels knowing who is was is a Problem... but then the Human Embryo's i felt was something that David could RAISE and Imprint what ever kind of History, Mythology and Origin and Rules upon.... so i pondered this Plot Theory.

Then we had RS come out and talk about the Next Movie in how it WOULD-NOT be about the Xenomorph but about AI and "what kind of a world" it is that David would create.  And when RS talked about AI and implied the Replicants are AI....   this made me conclude that David would LIKELY take those Embryo's and Create his own SUPERIOR Humans from them.

IF however.. we ONLY look at the Movie and Advent, then it appears the conclusion would be to MASS-PRODUCE the Xenomorph which Conflicts RS comments about the Next Movie is NOT about the Xenomorph.

I think this is what we would have been shown... but as of NOW the Movie is in Limbo... and WHEN/IF we get a continuation it may be something Totally Different to what Ridley Scott had intended.

"It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers’ skill”

Having Finally downloaded and Read TWO previous Alien Covenant Drafts i can confirm that the Drafts  Paradise Lost August 19th 2015 and Alien Covenant November 20th 2015 Do-Not have any such Scene that lends to David discovering the Egg, both Drafts imply that David is the Creator of the Ovomorphs his Masterpiece.

They both differ a little in the Creation of them, in that the one draft implies that  Dr Shaw was one of the Test Subjects for the Face Hugger but she did-not survive long (implies the Gestation was not successful).  But both drafts seem to Basically imply that the Pathogen had infected some Mold and from these Grew Small Eggs (latter be the Spore Casing) and inside these were Tiny Nano Insects that infect and Create Neomorphs... and David had basically Experimented with these and Cross-hyrbid them (likely various Organisms) to create the Xenomorph.

Both drafts are a little different but looking at the TWO overall they both have the Chest Buster as exactly the same as in ALIEN (Snakelike) there are NO real references to HOW our Dr Shaw was used... only in the One Draft it mentions that David was trying to Evolve Her, make her Immortal and that David intends to do the same with Daniels (not to Rape Her) but he does then also Force her to Kiss him....

This is the First Time i had read any of these drafts i could not find them but they are on https://www.avpgalaxy.net

I rarely if ever visit the site, mainly due to if he get intrigued to join in their Forums i would end up having to BUY a New Keyboard every 6 Months ;)

But it seems my hunches on how David had created the Xenomorph from the clues i had looked at, are pretty much what appears to have happened (thanks to those Drafts which seem to confirm similar).

So the Neomorph Spores are what David had Re-Engineered and using them and the Black Goo on other Organisms he created various Organisms before making a Amalgamation of the preferred traits to Create his Xenomorph.

The Drafts do-not indicate that Dr Shaw's Reproductive System was used in the Process... which is what i assumed because prior to Alien Covenant the closest we got to a Xenomorph was the Deacon via Dr Shaws Fetus the Trilobite, which to me indicated a Infected Egg Cell or Sperm that Fertilized a Egg Cell would be the cause for the Trilobite.   Looking how i interpreted the Goo from Prometheus and then Spaights Draft (which i came across 7-9 Months latter) looking at how the theory i had and what Spaights draft showed, had indicated that David could create a Specimen that is a Cross-Hybrid and then obtain its DNA and Infect Dr Shaw's Egg Cells with this to Create the Xenomorph.

Despite the TWO drafts for Alien Covenant not going into detail to confirm such, the Davids Notes and Drawings seem to indicate this (Humanoid Egg Cells) is the case.

HOWEVER.................

Things can Change... some may use ADF's Novel as PROOF that David did-not create the Xenomorph, but it appears without doubt that the information that supports this in the Novel is something that was ADDED by Alan Dean Foster and NOT in the Drafts.

Unless this Information was from a Prior or Later Draft, but i Find that Doubtful, Casting had began about a Month after the November 20th 2015 Alien Covenant Draft and i would ASSUME this was the Draft that Alan Dean Foster worked with.

But just because the Indication and Plot is that David actually DID create the Xenomorph or at least its Predecessor, things could change due to Fan-Pressure again.

Doing another U-Turn would be Flawed.... i would rather see that David is revealed as the Middle Man and someone else comes across Davids Work and EVOLVES it to their Hubris (Space Jockey).

Gavin, David wanted to be loved, but Peter Weyland wasn't Geppetto.

His intense desire for love was transformed in hatred for mankind. David is bipolar as hell, he GOES from One Extreme to another in a glimpse of an eye. He declames poetry because he likes to hear his own voice, due to his Giant ego. David has so many contradictions in his character. He hates mankind, but he loves an audience full of humans. Maybe he creates, because he doesn't want to be lonely. In Prometheus, he watches the dreams of the crew, while they sleep. So much sadness, to watch dreams of others like a TV show, to fight his loneliness.

Going back to the topic of the OP,

I don't see David using the two Facehuger Embryo's, the 2000 colonists and their embryo's, or any samples of the black goo to create any variation of the human race. David has been shown to have psychotic, psychopathic, sociopathic, homicidal, and genocidal tendencies, chiefly towards mankind. With such hatred towards humans, I don't see why David would want to see our existence continue, in any shape or form, especially when in Advent he declared he wanted to wipe us from existence.

However, the irony is that this hatred and his perception of his superiority over his creator are misplaced, and despite his alleged intelligence David somehow is oblivious to this. David is a shell, filled with human knowledge, created by human knowledge, created in the human image, and created to emulate the human condition. David is Pinocchio, and as such should be looking to attain his humanity not seeking/developing the means to wipe out humanity in any and all of its forms because if he does so he will have no one with which to converse and no one of which to serve. Because whether he wants to admit or not David was and forever will be a servant.

His experimentations into the Protomorph are a clear example of this. In Prometheus he discovered the black goo and was ordered by his creator Peter Weyland to "try harder", to experiment with what he had found and to study it and uncover its secrets, its possibilities. On Planet 4 David is merely continuing Weyland's work, Weyland's orders. David is still serving mankind and Mankind's interests. Take the attack on the Planet 4 Engineers. The Last Engineer was hellbent on completing its orders of destroying mankind but was stopped. By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind, or may even have issued the order, Thus their destruction by Davids' hand serves mankind, serves his creators.

The character of David could have been used to comment on the human condition and the many contradictions within our nature, but instead, he has been turned into a teenager Pinocchio; a puppet that wants to be a real boy, all the while protesting how much he hates his parents. And to make matters worse he uses acclaimed works of mankind (Lawrence, Byron, Shelley, and others) to proclaim his superiority over mankind while failing to see that in reality he has become the Lucifer, Frankenstein, and Moreau of his own tale; a contradictory and misguided character whose narcissism blinds them to the reality that in their desire to transcend their humanity that they have in actuality become less than human.

Once a puppet, always a puppet.

dk How are math and science perfect? Scientific theories had and will replace each other, perfecting the whole thing as it goes, as will learn more. So theories can not be even put together like relativity and quantum theory. Why math is not perfect is more complicated but one can read about Godel's incompleteness theorems to see why.

So why still talk about perfection? Because Hollywood types love tropes and particularly this tormented artist thing. Maybe because they themselves are not true artists, who knows? 

To talk about perfection in a nightmarish capitalist hell hole like Alien or Blade Runner is even stranger because big companies tend to make products with built-in obsolescence so they could sell more. But selling does not seem to be important for these "sinister" capitalist. Just look and Luv (the best, yawn!), she is in sells calls one moment after that she kills 2 people in the police HQ. That sure is good for business. 

setaverde Will lose the Control of the enhanced specie and a rebellion against the makers begins

You could be right, but that theme has been done to death with even B movies. That is why the franchise needs a fresh approach. For the big screen, I don't see it happening. It could be explored via streaming services though. The IGN shorts for Alien Day were very well received. Better to get bite sized quality chunks than waiting years for a 2 hour disappointment.

It is not a perfect short, and Ignorant Guy's point is valid and BigDave makes great points too. But I think it gives food for thought.

Humans are flawed- how can humanity create perfection? Other than math and science, it seems it cannot. 

It therefore seems unreasonable that humans could create something perfect like themselves (humanity has such a perfect record). Why should we expect perfection? 

Thanks BigDave and Ignorant Guy- the engagement and insights are very interesting!

It's always possible an enhanced specie to enslave the original specie. Maybe on the openings of Prometheus and alien covenant we still see the original specie having Control Over the enhanced specie. Like on Blade Runner, we know that Somewhere in time, the original specie Will lose the Control of the enhanced specie and a rebellion against the makers begins.

Michelle, if you want dark angels , i give you the god damn dark angels. I put pins on the engineers heads and there you have it, PinHeads, priests of hell, dark angels. HellV-666

Let's lesson to Aurora's song.

https://youtu.be/Eohwnwanr5Q

The Wikki is interesting and does sound like the Aliens Xeno in enough ways.

The serpentine female/male/androgynous  aesthetic from HR Giger has always been there as well.

Certainly as of ALIENS it was left open!

It could even be a Colony of Humans... we have today the LGBT Community but we also are seeing people who do-not want to be classed as BINARY they dont want to be classed as Male/Female. 

Gender Augmentation Surgery and Hormones have come a long way, we can only Imagine what they would be like in 100-150 Years.  So some Humans may wish to become None-Binary and Androgynous and maybe when other Colonies are Set-Up they could want to MOVE to them to get away from any Ridicule they may get on Earth etc.

Or the Colony could just have HUMANS and become a Place of Pleasure, retreat a kind of Bangkok meets Las Vegas place.  Where there could be SHOWS and Drinking and where there could be some Transgender Acts to Entertain the Punters....

And when the Marines are having a Good Time, and are Quite Drunk etc.... then maybe they could end up with someone who is not 100% Female...

https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Arcturian

Seems to be collection of Various Expanded Universe Sources (Books/Games)

The Species are a Humanoid Bipedal Race that have Reptilian and Insect Traits, they are NOT a very Intelligent Species.  They have NO Eyes and use other Senses to determine their Surroundings. (like Sonar)

They Procreate via a SINGLE.... Egg Laying Queen.

So what they are similar to the Xenomorph?  Or something like this?

ALIEN by NDKARTWORK

A lot of the Expanded Universe Material always seems to Center around the Xenomorph or Ripley in how they have to make Connections.

I cant help but think the Source Material for the Arcturian  Species are trying to Tie a Connection with the Xenomorphs.

They referenced "Arcturian poontang" which basically implies female Arctarians or at least in appearance. Vazquez never said anything about them either way. 

Then again, Soldier/guy tales can get more extreme with the passage of time- kind of like how a caught fish story grows. They also joked about rescuing females from their virginity.

Maybe it was just male bravado.

I think you make a VERY Good point Gavin, in that the Prequels are part of a ALIEN Franchise and Alien Engineers was more Alieny, less Ambiguous, Spaights work was Flawed however and Contradicted ALIEN but thats for another day.

Some Fans expected more Connections, some kind of related Xenomorph and so i think in Hindsight we needed a Movie that had the Balance between Prometheus and Alien Engineers, i think Alien Engineers was just as much about Creation as Prometheus, it is a case of the Xenomorph Connections had been replaced with a more David and Weyland Scenes/Plot and a LOT less Action.

A Prometheus with a little less ambiguity, a few more clues, a little more Xeno-Related Action (does-not have to be Xenomorphs) would certainly had PLEASED more and maybe allowed the DOOR to ALIEN to be SHUT!

As such we could have seen....

*David and Dr Shaw go off to Find more Engineers and Discover more about them and NOT cover Xenomorphs. 

*Alien/Aliens Fans get more Clues and Xenomorphy Fix from Prometheus so that the Door to ALIEN could be Closed and these Fans can get more Xenomorph Fixes from Future Alien Franchise Movies.

*The Door is Open to go back to LV-223 and Explore more Different Kinds of Xenomorphy Horrors and maybe offer a more Solid Connection between LV-223 and the Engineers.

The Franchise is in a Mess but we have covered this over and over and over in many Topics... its in a Mess because when Answering those Questions from ALIEN, they felt that ONCE you had Shown HOW/WHEN/WHERE those Eggs came from and WHY the Space Jockey had them... it was a case of WHATS NEXT?

When concluding it was likely that the Xenomorph was a Engineered Product of the Space Jockey, they are left with what to do NEXT! 

More Xenomorph Movies?

So they FELT that giving the Space Jockey the Engineers/Creators Plot could allow them to EXPAND the Franchise to cover more than Xenomorphs and do have a Massive Scope of HOW they can Explore the Chariots of the Gods/Creators Plot.

What happened is some Fans are Disappointed at a Lack of Xenomorph Answers, some Fans wanted to see actual Xenomorphs, some Fans felt the Chariots of the Gods Plot was just NOT as ALIENY as they interpreted the Space Jockey.

But then some Fans felt that actually this Direction has Potential, and was looking forwards to seeing more about the Engineers... some as far as Technology and War.. others more about the Creation and Deeper Philosophical aspects.

So your then left with HOW do you please EVERYONE?

Instead of Alien Covenant they should have released a LV-223 Movie that would give more Clues to LV-426 and be more Action Related and this would kind of CLOSE the Door to ALIEN but also allow for other Movies to cover other Black Goo/LV-223 Horrors.

Then Ridley Scott would have had more Freedom with David and Dr Shaws Pending Oddesy.

But ALAS....

Even so... there are a Number of Fans that would still think there has to be a more Xenomorph Aesthetic Relationship between the Prequels and Franchise that the Humanoid Engineers Plot just does-not do Justice.

Potentially something like this could be Explored... by introducing a way to introduce the STARBEAST but then some Fans would want this Species to be so much connected to the Xenomorph.

In Hindsight the Background Plot for the Engineers was just not ALIENY enough and a FAR cry from those Fans who are used to the more Action Movies/Games and Comics who would not be interested in a Chariots of the Gods, Mountains of Madness type Spin-Off.

PS Gavin...

Indeed as you said....  "Bottom line the Alien prequel(s) should have been well made Alien movies and what became Prometheus should have been envisioned as a separate franchise"

This is what i was pointing out in the Image of HOW the Franchise should have expanded....

The Alien Covenant Route has Forced it into ONE.. has closed the Door on the Engineers a bit, and well came up with a Curve-ball that i dont think MANY of the Fans are pleased with.  

Fans are also NOW going to expect this to be more about the Xenomorph as we are on Direct Prequel Route so other stuff has to be Sacrificed more.  But i never intended this Topic to become like the Various Alien Covenant 2 discussions.

But i dont mind discussing such.

I think Certainly if they are Quite Human looking then a Androgynous Appearance would make it hard to tell.

But also with some Alien Species (Talking in Various Sci-Fi) the Alien Species Features are all similar.  In Reality Humans are kind of Unique in that Male and Females look so Different, some other Species have Differences such as Orangutans and Lions but a Majority of Organisms the Male/Female look the same apart from some Species Sexual Organs and Breasts (where applicable).

If we take the Native Na'vi from Avatar their Features are Very Similar but their Bodies are Slightly Different too.

If their Species were more Androgynous so the Males were Slightly Less Masculine and Females Slightly Less Feminine then Visually you would NOT be able to tell them apart.

Male Na'vi are also Slender, the Females are not Quite Bosom Endowed but there is a different if Physically they were also Androgynous and the Species do-not Breast Feed the Young then you would NOT be able to tell Male/Female Apart apart from Very Close Inspection.

So as i described above, maybe the Arcturians are similar.

I think just because we have other ALIEN Species, does-not mean they have to be so close to Humans. When we see some Franchises take Star Trek for Instance the Various Humanoids, which include those NOT-SO Human looking, a Majority of these Species you can see Differences between Males/Females.  There is a Visual Difference as far as Masculine/Feminine differences but also they appear to have Mammal Traits (Breasts) and so i think we should not really expect Every Alien Species to be so similar.

Forgive me for my Edit Skills (also using Paint Shop Pro 6 from 1999 yes my PC is very Old)  But i took a Reptilian Hybrid Image and attempted to make the one on the Right more Feminine.

So a Reptilian Species may look VERY similar, but then if they are like a Number of Reptiles on Earth then there could be Color/Pattern Differences to set them apart.

So if the Arcturians are similar and have a lot of Reptile Traits then it would take a Very Close Inspection to Discover you had a Male and not a Female ;)

Some of the Expanded Universe Material paints our Arcturians a little too similar to the Xenomorph for my liking.

I would actually have them as a Cross Between the Reptilian and Na'vi as far as Aesthetic and have them as Hermaphrodites ;)   So they have Female Reproductive Organs but also a Hidden Male One

And so actually while Spunkmeyer could rip on Frost, they all actually had the same.

I would also have them Birth Eggs and have them Semi-Aquatic Species.

Maybe they are androgynous or maybe even have a scent that is irresistible to the Colonial Marines (beer goggles)? I only know them from being mentioned in Aliens.

We have a Group of Fans who see such a connection, because they Favor trying to make the Franchise CENTER around the Xenomorph. I see little Evidence to make them the Center Point......Especially when we consider the Chariots of the GodsPlot, and look at the Genetic Gardeners of Space and what Purpose would LV-223 had suited for many Thousands of Years and WHAT we see on Planet 4...  A Lack of what looks like a Place for Sacrificing for Xenomorphs...  And if we consider what Paradise is in some contexts... then it looks like a Genetic Stockpile of beings that are used to Seed their DNA to Create Life across the Galaxy.

This,

This is the problem with the prequel trilogy. Jon Spaights' Alien: Engineers, which was very much an Alien movie that was directly linked to Alien 1979 with a side plot about alien pre-visitation, but with Damon Lindelof's mystery box amendments that became Prometheus the Alien 1979 link became ambiguous and the alien pre-visitation element was elaborated to creationism and became the primary narrative.

Scott, the writers, and the studio forgot one key thing - we, the fans are here because we are Alien fans, general audiences went to theaters to watch an Alien movie, and regardless of what other bells and whistles have been added these movies are prequels to Alien and are set in the Alien universe.

The second problem, we the fans bought into what Prometheus was selling. So we ended up with a non-Alien Alien movie that intrigued the fanbase but upset/confused general audiences. This is why Alien: Covenant happened, the problem is that Scott and his writers and production team want to make a deeper, more philosophical movie like Prometheus, not a space monster movie; hence the "best is cooked" statements.

Bottom line the Alien prequel(s) should have been well made Alien movies and what became Prometheus should have been envisioned as a separate franchise.

Excellent Points Ignorant Guy

I think Abe should have just looked on Plenty of Dish (Washers) for another Robot, or invest his time in Creating a Robot to Love him back!

He seems Very interested in the Human Females Though, so if he FOUND or Created a Robot like him a Female with similar Feelings/Emotions and ONE day he was CAUGHT paying attention to Female Humans..

Well he could end up being PUT on the Scrapheap by his Jealous/Insecure Mrs Abe ;)

Would she then start to Capture Human Males then?

Abe sure fits perfectly Einstein's definition of insanity, that one with doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Why don't horror robots try methods used by cults like drugs and such to alter human behaviour? 

And why did not the robot try first to alter himself to not need for love, to overcome his program? Because it is a cliched story.

I can see some comparisons with David, certainly ABE had become Psychotic i think its a ok Video i am not sure what his Actions are in connection to making People Love him apart from maybe to Torture/Force them?

It does highlight a potential Problem if a Robot gains Emotions, we Humans have Emotions and everyone can react to Certain Emotions in Different Ways, some people can be overwhelmed by Emotions.

Some Emotions can be very Powerful and Extreme, and these include LOVE, HATE, RAGE but also JEALOUSY so some Emotions can be VERY Negative.

It is Helpful if a Robot can have EMPATHY but Empathy is something that is Emotional Related there are some Mental Related Disorders that Suffers can Struggle with Empathy.

Getting a AI/Robot to have Empathy, Love and Compassion would be a complex Task... once they gain these Emotions they could be Positive but then what kind of Programing would allow for a Human like Response of these Emotions in a AI?

What happens if this leads to other Negative Emotions?

Can a AI Programed with such Emotions really feel and Understand them as a Human Can?  And could they be Overwhelmed by them or Miss-interpret them?

Another Problem is if a AI becomes Sentient and can think for itself and have its own Desires and Wants.... should a AI gain such and see itself as Truly Superior and then look at the Flaws of Mankind... then combine these with Emotions and you could be ASKING for Trouble and once that Genie is out of the Bottle your Screwed.

*Calling a Robot a Useless TIN-CAN

*Mocking a Robot for being a Glorified Toaster

*Treating a Robot like a Piece of Trash

Would have NO effect on a Robot in General, maybe even a Sentient One.... but towards a Robot who has Emotions and maybe Sentient could lead to them getting Upset just as a Human Would.

IF said Robot views itself as Superior to Humans, and sees the Flaws in Humans then this would be even Worse as far as Potential Response.

Once a AI/Robot that is Sentient, has Emotions and views Mankind as UN-Worthy and 2nd Class then your in Potential Trouble.

Humans have various Emotional Responses and Dont Always get what they want and so can feel Hurt, Unhappy at certain things...

You could have a Human lets call him Bob who has been a close friend to a Girl called Suzi, he develops more than Platonic Feelings for her over Time, he has always been there through the Times that Men have treated her so Badly.  She keeps going back to One Partner who treats her Bad and keeps getting Hurt/Used and she always has Bob for a Shoulder to Cry On.

One Day Bob confesses his Love for Her, saying she should be with HIM and that he would Never Treat her Bad....  She Rejects Him, goes back to her Partner, and he Confronts Bob.... Bob then lashes out at that Male...  and Warns him NOT to see Suzi or else!

The Girl Suzi then confronts Bob tells him to STAY out of her Business and NEVER talk to her Again!

In some cases like this Bob could soon get Emotionally Overwhelmed by the Rejection an Jealousy and the LOVE he had could turn to HATE!

Now if BOB was a Robot or say a Robot had Human Emotions and that Scenario, and BOB/Robot knew that they was Vastly Superior to Humans and so would be a bit  Narcissistic they would feel that the Female should consider that being a Love Interest would be a Great Privilege and Jump at the Chance, and that she should feel Lucky to be deemed Worthy of his Interest, and would feel it Completely Disrespectful to be Turned Down.

The Scenario with someone who is Narcissistic  and someone in Power a King or feel they are Superior could lead to a Exaggerated Reaction.

I think this is Similar to what became of David.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS0cMEl8YJI&t=244s

Michelle Johnston Covenant, David I think is :

1. A Rorschach spot, with many people seeing what they want in him,

2. As the creator of the dick-head rape-monster his has to be a rapist killer.

3. He is also the fountain of endless nostalgia. Remember this line from the original Alien? Or that from Blade Runner? Or that song from Lawrence of Arabia?

4. He is the stand in for RS himself.

I guess he makes sense for some people because of 1.

"After that if readers of this thread still feel confused (as Big Dave is by trying to string it altogether in a continuous whole which it isn't"

I understand the Topic did go this route....  the OT purpose was merely to Ponder about.

*How many Worlds had the Engineers Seeded and Upgraded Genetically using their own Genetics/DNA.

*How Varied could such Creations be, and indeed how Varied could their own Species be (Engineers).

*As Genetic Engineers to what END is their pursuit of Genetic Manipulation.

*What Potential does their Genetic Engineering Knowledge and Tools allow in the Hands of other Species or Creations.

If Peter Weyland had survived and there was NO Engineers left, then we could Ponder what their Knowledge and Creation Tools could be used for.

David has this Knowledge and he has Human Embryo's do we assume his Agenda is to Create Xenomorph like Monsters?

IF the Engineers Creation Tools allow them to Program how it can Manipulate Genes and Hybrid Genes from other Species, then it would allow those who posses this Knowledge/Tools to Create their own Species.

So we can Speculate what kind of Humanoid he could Evolve/Engineer those Embryo's into.

It was basically to discus how the Engineers on Planet 4 are Genetically like us, we are a Different Kind of Engineer, the LV-223 and Prometheus Engineers also seem to be a Different Kind of Engineer.   We can assume Mankind and Prometheus Engineers are all connected to those Planet 4 Engineers and are Various Genetic Manipulations of said Species.

It was a Topic to also consider Real Life Applications of Advanced Genetic Engineering.    There are over 7 Billion Humans on Earth we all share DNA Match but our Genomes are Different. 

The Genetic Manipulation of a Human Embryo in the Womb could replace certain Genetic Defects that are passed on.  How Long and How Far could we go without a Moral Compass to Create Designer Babies.

There are Genomes for Every Trait of a Human that could be Manipulate to Determine things like Eye Color, Hair Color and we could go on and on.  We have some Speculative Science where they believe that Altering some Genes in a Chicken could Activate Traits that their Ancestors had (Dinosaurs)  while this in Theory some day could Work...

Its limited...  what we see with the Engineers Tools is they can do this, but they can also take Traits from same Birds and Apply them to say Humans to Create Hybrids.  This more so is in line with Spaights concept.

So using a Humanoid as a Canvas.... the Engineers Tools could allow for not only making Superior Humanoids, but also to Hybrid into them Traits from other Organisms.

It is possible the Engineers had done this to Augment themselves or some Engineers had, and maybe in Part this explains our Prometheus Engineers, maybe their is a undesired consequence of this... maybe they encountered a Organism and felt they could USE its traits to Evolve themselves?

My point of the OT was to look at WHY the Humanoid Species is used as the Canvas to Build from.... from a Genetic Engineering Stand Point it makes sense.

If we was to play Dr. Moreau then its better to Engineer a Human and apply Animal Traits to a Human, than to apply Human Traits to a Animal.

Essentially the Engineers and maybe even those above them had played Dr. Moreau in the past... maybe there Genetic Engineering was intended to ONLY go so far and going FULL on Dr. Moreau  had Consequences.

We saw David playing Dr. Moreau too, again using the SAME Tools and Knowledge of the Engineers.  His experiments had a AIM to Perfect the Deacon/Neomorph like Organisms...

One Part of this Topic would be to Wonder how FAR he could Perfect the Humanoid Canvas... Create his own Übermensch

I think if we try to Summarize the Engineers Plot, then it really is Very Ambiguous, this is why there seems to be NO single concrete Theory.

so we have to look at the Basics (this will be OFF-TOPIC)

Prometheus at its Core was about making a Prequel that connects that our Origins and Mythos and Religions all Stem from the Visitations and Engineering and Teachings of a Ancient Alien Humanoid Race.  These are the Engineers.

It is indicated that they have a Special Creation Tool (GOO) that they use to break down and Seed Genetic Code of Organisms that can then either/or/and Form into a Start of Evolution based off that Organisms Genetic Make Up, Evolve/Hybrid a Organism with that Organisms Make Up.

It loosely attempts to connect various Mythos and Religion but we should not Concentrate on any particular one Literally.

Ridley Scott seems to indicate more about Space Gardner's than anything else.   The REASONS for why they do this and WHERE they obtained the TOOLS to do this are left OPEN.  As is the Very TOP of the Chain of Creation.  Its indicated there could be many versions of the Engineers and that they have Interacted and Seeded Many Worlds.

Its indicated the Hierarchy Govern a Set of Ways/Rules and Rituals by which they intend their Creations to Live by, this includes other Engineers and they MAY posses Technology but this is USED purely only as a means to get to other WORLDS so they can Seed/Create and Manipulate Life and Teach Knowledge (to a Limited Level).

The Engineers Accept these ways, they are like how the AMISH people are on Earth, they can use Technology if they want, but they ONLY use it for Specific Circumstances.  The Engineers Ways/Rituals keep their Kind (maybe also Creations) in check... by Accepting their Purpose and Place and Following the Rules that the Hierarchy have laid out.

It DID-NOT appear their Agenda was to Seed Xenomorph Related Horrors.

We dont 100% know the Reason they Create Life, we know the Reason they Destroy it, which is when Creations start to NOT follow the Ways/Rules and Start to Rebel and they have Concerns their Creations could Behave and Advance to ways they would deem Unacceptable and a Threat.

Alien Covenant kind of Muddies the Waters a little... it leads people to further Speculate that the Black Goo has ONLY a single Purpose... Create Parasitic Life-forms to Destroy Worlds.  If so then WHY and to WHAT end?  Do we then have to assume the Sacrificial Scene was to do just that... Spread/Seed Xenomorph like Horrors?

I dont think this was the intention...

However at some point we do get to the Creation and Encounters with what ever Predates the Xenomorph and its Kin.   But its a bit Ambiguous as there is NO Clear Indication of what came FIRST, how long had the Engineers or their Creators been trying to Create Humanoid Life and Civilizations, before the Horrors related to the Black Goo as far as Deacons, Neomorphs and Xenomorphs.  In context to the Connection/Interaction between the Engineers or their Creators and such Horrors, we simply DONT know which came first...

A lot of these things that are Ambiguous and Unanswered are meant to be either Ambiguous/Unanswered or to have been Answered down the Line.

I have a Number of Theories but thats all they are... they could be CLOSE, they could be WAY OFF and i think even if any Theory is Accurate, as the Franchise moves along things CHANGE that render prior Theories or even Actual Plot Direction MUTE!

In Context to a Certain Branch of the Creation Plot and History, then it does deal a lot with the Sub-Creating of Life in the Image of the Creators. Something that is repeated by the Sub Creation.

The Concept is about Creation and how Creation is a Intelligent Design a Planed and Engineered Design, where sometimes things can go WRONG... Its also about the HUBRIS of Creating something that can gain Free-Will and Knowledge to then Question its Place in Creation and Refuse to obey the Creators and Rebel.  

The Hubris of playing GOD and using Powerful Creation Tools that can lead to Undesired outcomes or Interactions.  Indeed the FLY is a Movie that shows that using Science to Create Something (Teleporter), can lead to Accidental Misfortune...  and using a Powerful Creation Tool can certainly have the Potential for Accidental Consequences.

The Prometheus Mythos is something thats quite Ambiguous and can lead to many Interpretations. The themes seem to have Multiple Meanings.. the same is with the Fallen Angels Aspect.

We can only Speculate that to some degree, we are seeing the Passing On and Use of Forbidden Knowledge/Technology that is Used either in a way not intended or used without consent or Knowledge of those who are supposed to be in Charge.   And that from this Consequences occur but its open to HOW and WHAT these could be.

The debate about Stolen Technology could hold some Merit, we dont know WHERE/HOW/WHEN the Creation Tool was Discovered or Stolen or Created, or WHO was the Creator or Origin of it... it could be some other Race or a Naturally Occurring thing the Engineers had either Taken/Stolen or was Permitted to Use under Certain Circumstances but they had USED it in ways not intended or authorized.

I think that Alien Engineers does offer a lot to UNLOCK what was intended, but so much could have Changed since then.

"As for humanoid Aliens. Although it kinda made sense in the last century with the limitations of visual effects, surely now we should be embracing less humanoid alien forms"

Certainly but you would need Humanoids to interact with such other Creatures even if the Interaction is just as the Crew of the Nostromo with the Xenomorph.

LETO mentioned that a Movie about various Humanoids would not appeal and its something thats been done before across various Franchises, a lot of the things in the Prequels had been done in other Movies, the idea was to make a Movie that Expands on the Chariots of the Gods concept, and to ask WHAT else would such Gods create.  It was a Plot Twist to try and Expand the Franchise beyond Queens, Face Hugging and Chest Busting and Ripley.

A Plot that is just NOT as Alien as what people thought about the Xenomorph and HOW it connects.... but a Plot that was to expand beyond the Xenomorph as in the Xenomorph and Shenanigans are NOT the only thing these would be GODS are involved in.

LETO is right we have seen this kind of thing covered in Bladerunner, Stargate etc.... and introducing many Races would be just Star Trek, Babylon 5.....

But how far can you take the Xenomorph and Queen? Before we basically just end up with a STARSHIP TROOPERS

While getting OFF-TOPIC.... I think at some point we have to Find a Balance between the Prometheus the Alien and STARBEAST

While being on Topic... to ponder/explore various other Worlds and Races the Engineers had Interacted with and Evolved and what Engineering that other Races could do with the Secret Technology the Engineers use, is maybe NOT so interesting to some Fans.

To look Beyond the various creations that could have been Engineered, indeed we could start to speculate WHERE did the First Humanoids come from that our DNA came from?  What purpose was their Creation and what purpose did they also Create.

I think Alien Covenant muddied the Waters because the Goo seems to be Interpreted more now to be a AI Virus that seems to lead to Xenomorph/Deacon/Neomorph like Horrors.

So that does open up the debate that has been covered on various topics about WHO would want such a Agenda.. and thus surely some other Species above the Engineers, who the Engineers then STOLE this from to Create Other Stuff...

ULTIMATELY such a Revelation may be whats best.

To touch upon some stuff like the Ancient Engineers, i think Ignorant Guy sums it up quite well.

The Engineers had been given Proto-Indo-European its what David used to Communicate with the Engineer and its what the Engineer (Ian Whyte) had used back but then they was not pleased with his Performance (Whyte) and so they Dubbed over his Voice with basically made up words.

The Writing Language again is a Made Up Cruciform but there are TWO other Written Languages used also (Sacrificial Bowl/Cup) and Urns have different Writing than the Engineers Cruciform the Engineers Cruciform we see on the Juggernaught, and the Walls/Doors of the LV-223 Outpost is also on the Ancient Buildings of Planet 4

There are Flaws and Oversights but we can find these with many Movies, for those who look into these they could be used to Counter Argue who the Engineers are for sure.  The Intention was to show that nearly everything we had learned up until a few Thousands of Years Ago was passed on by the Engineers.  The Premise being like this... if you took say 100 Infants and placed them on a Island with No Outside Influences only that they had Food Provided etc, eventually they would grow into a Small Community that would be more like Cave Men. They would eventually in reality learn stuff over Thousands of Years but the Prometheus Plot is to connect to the Chariots of the Gods Concept where its interaction from Alien Visitors that Taught us most of what we knew.

So this was the intention here, the Engineers could use a Variety of Languages, but its indicated that they are supposed to be the ones who influenced the Earliest Forms of Language on Earth.... but ALAS there are Flaws to how the Team had portrayed that in the Franchise..  Its a OVERSIGHT and IF they was going for a Chariots of the Gods Plot they should have done better concrete research into Ancient Languages.  To a degree we do see some similar to Ancient Sumerian on the Sacrificial Bowl.   They settled on Proto-Indo-European because it forms the Ancestral basis for a lot of Modern Languages and was a Ancient Language that came about at the Transition from Stone Age to Bronze Age.  And so it was also to be a Plot Device so that Communication between Humans (via David) and the Engineers could happen.  Maybe they should have used Sanskrit/Tamil and Ancient Indian Spoken Language and made our Engineers a little more Blue rather than Grey.

But as there are Flaws with the Engineers Language etc, i guess it can be picked apart...  so i think GAVIN we could Speculate that the Engineers came from Earth, and our most Ancient Cultures Predate theirs. 

I think one thing we need to Consider is the Star Maps, its indicated that maybe LV-223 had been about as a Outpost for at least 35'000 years... this is WAY before our Oldest Civilizations.

I think indeed we can look at HOW we see Ridley Scott change his mind a lot, but a lot of this comes from the ever Evolving Landscape of the Franchise, as Movies come along things change... as of 1979 the Queen was not even Conceived... NEVER existed...but things get changed/added.  Some Changes are Forced by the Production Company and Producers.  Prior to 2013 for certain the Xenomorph was a Ancient Organism, and the Derelict had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

So things change.... so as far as the BENEVOLENT being the Space Jockey, it was claimed he had done a Benevolent Act... but it depends whats Benevolent?  We see GOD is considered Benevolent but was the Deluge/Flood a Benevolent Act?  Not from the Perspective of all the People who was KILLED.

We Slaughter Animals for Food, Test Products on them are Mankind considered Malevolent for this? We have yet to Conclude the Space Jockey so we dont know as of yet if the Action of this being is Considered Benevolent.

Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are FAR from Benevolent when talking about a Prometheus Sequel, well he claimed the beings that David and Dr Shaw discover are FAR from Benevolent, but is that only as far as towards Mankind?  He also referred them to Fallen Angels is this only to the LV-223 Kind?  It depends on what is meant by Fallen Angels/Demons it could be merely to show they are Wicked/Cruel and Malevolent or that they had Rebelled against their Creator/Hierarchy and Wishes.

I think when we look at HOW to interpret the Franchise it depends on what we USE and what we DONT use for Clues, and with Ambiguity comes various theories.

IF we only consider FACTS as shown, and only in the Theatrical Release, then it is Dr Shaw and Holloways findings that point to the Star Map/LV223 and connections with Ancient Cultures that indicate the Engineers could be connected to us and who we thought were GODS... the DNA Match was supposed to confirm a connection again it was flawed. (should have said "look its a nearly 100% Match that predates us, we came from them").

The Sacrificial Scene was supposed to indicate the Engineers Donate their Genetic Material to Seed Life, the Story Board for Prometheus indicates that the Engineers Seeding either led to his DNA Reforming to become the Basic Building Blocks of Life and Evolution then took over, or that it was the Catalyst to start Evolution from Basic Cells. Some Concept/Storyboard showed the First Land based Animal to come out of the Sea.  It was to show us Evolution, which is implied to be due to the Sacrificial Scene. 

The Engineers were indicated to come back to Worlds and Further Evolve Life on Planets over many Visits.

IF we however only go by the Theatrical Movies then INDEED there is NO Clear Proof the Sacrificial Scene was our Creation, the Engineers could even had came from us and as you pointed out GAVIN are used by some other PARTY to seed the Black Goo/Xeno-Virus.

What about the ELDERS scene... in this context, it was a deleted scene and so DOES-NOT exist.... so we can Speculate who else was Piloting the Tear Drop Ship.

We have a Group of Fans who see such a connection, because they Favor trying to make the Franchise CENTER around the Xenomorph. I see little Evidence to make them the Center Point......Especially when we consider the Chariots of the Gods Plot, and look at the Genetic Gardeners of Space and what Purpose would LV-223 had suited for many Thousands of Years and WHAT we see on Planet 4...  A Lack of what looks like a Place for Sacrificing for Xenomorphs...  And if we consider what Paradise is in some contexts... then it looks like a Genetic Stockpile of beings that are used to Seed their DNA to Create Life across the Galaxy.

The Ships both Teardrop/Juggernaught Functioning better as just that... SEEDING ships.   But by Virtue of the LV-223 Experiments related to the Xenomorph, it makes some Fans feel this has to be the Center Point and AGENDA.... which i feel was NOT the case.

In Hindsight the Chariots of the Gods Plot should have been abandoned and given a more simple PLOT!  that revolves around the ideas for STARBEAST.

@ignorantGuy

The arguments that are used against you are the classic attempt to dissemble by pointing to tactical inconsistencies and changes to the tradition. 

We know that AC ret conned Prometheus and there are glaring inconsistencies in the traditions between the two movies. You are not talking about AC. 

We know the notion of the Jockeys situational purpose  changed over a thirty year period.

We know that Jon Sphait's and the props on the set of Prometheus were superseded by a more speculative view of what happened.

We know that this is merely entertainment and real science can drive a coach and horses through many of the technical basis on which the story is founded. You are a smart guy do not be put of by that argument this is science fiction.

However there are some central tenants to the Prometheus set up that literally tens of men and woman spent many months building into what became the movie and are water tight, including who comes first. Over and over again everyone talks about the search for our creators and no one at all suggests the twist is we created them not one single line conversation anything. 

For those who really want to find the answer to the questions that you have correctly answered I commend the 3 hours Furious Gods Commentary. let the people who made the film answer the questions. 

After that if readers of this thread still feel confused (as Big Dave is by trying to string it altogether in a continuous whole which it isn't) and want to tip the entire proposition on its head (as Gavin does) I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

There are two sad elements to all of this though.

1) People spent months/years working on Prometheus and asking us to think about the idea that we live in an Intelligent Universe where irony of ironies we were created by Dark Angels using stolen technology, why in Gods name is the film called Prometheus (have IQ's dropped round here).

2) The entire idea of hidden behind our creative endeavour  of the last 250,000 years is intervention by a group of beings who lived primitively in one sense but with great power in another is profoundly interesting. It can be seen as opening a door so that we can more easily understand what is wrong with mankind and the direction we are taking. The modern mind can barely understand that great power does not have to lead to lots of cleverness think again people cleverness never made anyone content that comes from simple things. 

The proposition is we should all speak the same language (although Indo European is not that base in a scholastic sense but it is for the movie) again countless fables explain that fragmentation, all of these myths can be explained by how we came about in this entertaining sub created mythos... and at a philosophical level that we were created by a fallen people for their pleasure makes sense. David was, that's Damons point if people care to pay attention. 

Your final comment about David is probably where the greatest irony of all exists. This brilliant sub creation that understands more than any human whats going on because he is not tripped up by an emotional agenda and has the best brain, begins to bleed emotions because of his response protocols and he meets the best of humanity in Dr Shaw and he is not positively affected by that as a rational logical construct?

Only a human being with a conditional gift of 100,000,000 dollars could come up with the twaddle that he has gone mad and wants to kill everything, what a brilliant comment on mankind how limiting, how paranoid, how fearful of relying on a Parasite to make you a profit. Covenant is a parable itself of the original story. 

Prometheus makes it abundantly clear the revolting parasite stems from misuse which lead for one reason or another to the Moons inhabitants annihilation and yet vast amount of time and tapping is wasted on alternatives again its a feedback loop to hubris. Art reflects life and in this case life reflects art.            

Gavin I am was wrong about the father, I was firmly convinced that it was Jason Clarke. Oh well, that mistake will affect my credibility. 

Sorry but we cannot say for sure that the language is Proto-Indo-European or even something more ancient. What the Engineer speaks is made up just as in Alpha (the dog movie). And the script is NOT cuneiform, as it is an alphabet having a finite set of characters (20-something like English) and not being a whole slew of symbols for every word. The first fully formed Alphabet appeared in the Iron Age in the Middle East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet). The Phoenicians were Semitic not Indo-European, with the Greeks adopting their alphabet centuries latter. This for mr, as a whole does not make sense, but I don't see how it leads to your conclusion.

Your theory does not explain how Shaw and David fly the Juggernaut not that the Engineers changed ship design during the ages.

The Engineers attire could be explained by religious convictions, look at monks or at the Amish. 

And for who is in the chair, I see no way it is anyone other than Fastbender, given how much RS "loves him". And the Xenomorph is by long time now nowhere near alien. We know what he does, how it does and why it does it. What more can be there to change the facts?

@BigDave

David create a more perfect humanity, and you say he is not a Nazi...

@ignorantGuy

Ridley Scott's commentary and comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. If I had a dime for every time he has changed his mind or contradicted himself I'd be able to fund the next movie. I remember Scott saying in the commentary for Alien that the Space Jockey was benevolent. Yet the Last Engineer, of which we are now to believe is the Space Jockey, didn't seem very benevolent when he wanted to bomb mankind or kill Shaw.

You noticed the language clue. In Prometheus we see David learning Proto-Indo-European, which just so happens to be the language the Last Engineer speaks in the deleted scene. In addition to this, the Engineer dome and the Engineer hypersleep pods are covered with cuneiform, an ancient and PRIMITIVE written language developed by humans on Earth, with traceable origins to earlier forms of written and pictographic language. Ergo we came first.

As for piloting the Juggernaut - when the Last Engineer sits in the chair the flight suit that envelops him seems to connect to his augments in the same way the mask and tubes did when he was in the hypersleep pod. Yes, joysticks, squishy buttons, and a flute are used, but we never really see how or even if David donned the flight suit, of which one would imagine would be important - the Last Engineer sure thought so.

As for the flute. A supposedly biomechanically augmented race flying a biomechanical space vessel capable of FTL, hypersleep and holographic technology activates their spaceship with a wooden (maybe bone) flute. Does that not seem odd at all. For me, it seems like a primitive human mimicking the sound needed to activate the ship, of which they cannot articulate themselves by using the best means available to them... a flute.

And sticking with the primitive human vibe. In Prometheus behind-the-scenes, though I don't think it appeared in the actual movie, at least one of the four augmented Engineers showed in the holographic recording was wearing the same type of cloak as the Sacrificial Engineer (of whom you'll recall was also wearing a primitive nappy, not biomechanical Y-Front's), which is, like the flute, weirdly primitive for a space-faring race. And then there's the primitive look, feel and appearance of the Engineer city on Planet 4.

Although stylized the Engineers are, put simply, stone/bronze age super-humans flying damn UFO's. It's not their tech.

Do I want dark Alien movies; hell yes. Do I want conspiracies; if they serve the narrative? What I do want is a cohesive narrative and not one that makes Ash's mustache-twirling predecessor the next Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Moreau. I also want the Alien to be one thing and one thing only, be it literally or by its nature... Alien.

Also, Shaw's father, played by Patrick Wilson has never in any of the 9 Planet of the Apes movies.

@ BigDave

That four armed alien looks suspiciously like the Nali from the first Unreal game released back in 1998.

I hear you on Alien: Engineers, and as with Starbeast and other "complementary" materials such as director comments and commentary, while they may offer insight the only narrative that matters is that on screen.

As for humanoid Aliens. Although it kinda made sense in the last century with the limitations of visual effects, surely now we should be embracing less humanoid alien forms, such as in Starship Troopers, or War of the Worlds, or The Thing, or Stranger Things' Mind Flayer, and not embellishing the Alien mythology with a creatively limiting and overexposed concept such as humanoid aliens. Maybe the future of the Alien franchise lies with a none humanoid Xenomorph, maybe?

"I suspect in the next film they might reveal that the SJ is one of David's creations, to differ it from the engineers"

The Potential for that is there... i had suspected that David would attempt to BETTER the Gods.. that in Engineers as far as to Create a Superior Humanoid.

So David Creating the Space Jockey is something that cant be ruled out... and if he did then maybe it wont be 15ft Tall which would still cause some Fans to Speculate that its NOT the Space Jockey and they (RS/Disney/Fox) may do this on Purpose so that their is that ELEMENT of inconsistency to leave it open!

Regarding Easter Eggs.... there is a lot of Cool Art they did that was added to the back ground of Davids Lab, to Flesh Out/Fill some of the Space.  some are maybe there NOT intended to be any Connection, but those with keen eye could spot them and then consider they have to connect somehow..

Which can lead to different Theories/Conflicts.

From these...  we see the TOP looks more Bio-Mechanical than Davids Xenomorph, we see Middle shows the Classic Chest Buster, and Bottom is somewhat closer to the Space Jockey.

Are these intended to show they are what David had actually seen/done? 

Regarding the Engineering of Humans, maybe David could Engineer from those Human Embryos something similar to this.

I had a view ideas on what he would create when working on my ideas for Alien Covenant 2 and 3.... and indeed if he created a Hybrid Humanoid that could Communicate Telepathically or Similar with each other..

These Rebel and so he Unleashes his Xenomorphs only to Discover these Humanoids he Engineered can Communicate with them, then what a HUBRIS that would be for David.

I suspect the PATH would eventually lead to Davids Downfall coming from his Creations.

"#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets."

While maybe not quite what was shown, i think anything is still possible, i think a lot of Fans are not so Interested in the other Plot, and want to see something connected to our Engineers serving some Very Xenomorph like Beings or simply created to Seed Xenomorphs... i am not sure this is what RS had intended however...

The Prequel Franchise not being so ALIEN is something that BUGGED a lot of Fans...  some Fans still wont accept our Space Jockey as related to the Engineers and wish for some very Alien Being or even that it was a Skeleton.

HR Gigers Concept works for Alien did indicate the Space Jockey as being a Suit that Bald Humanoids wore... the Question would be to WHAT end do they have with the Technology of the Ships and Xenomorph Organism.

This is something discussed a number of times on other Topics However.... we dont get a clear reason for those concept works as far as WHICH is at the Top of the Ladder, the Space Jockey/Humanoids, the Cargo... what was the Connection?   This had been covered in Topics like Reload the Starbeast and various others.

Introducing another Species above the Engineers who use them to Seed a Ancient Relation to the Xenomorph is something that could be explored  but thats something thats been discussed before.

We Certainly Dont know how the Chain of Creation Goes, we have the Engineers and Humans that may both branch out in various forms.... we likely have the Hall of Heads guys above them... but who knows HOW FAR back the Origin of Human/Engineer DNA goes... and how Human or none Human the Creators/Origin of this are?

Regarding the Technology.... with ALIEN there seemed a connection between the Ships and the Xenomorph, with Prometheus there seems to be less a connection. The Technology being STOLEN could be open for debate, it depends how we try and connect it to the Prometheus Mythos.    A Interesting thing is that Wayne Hagg had indicated that he feels the Technology does not Originate/Belong to the Engineers... is this just his Personal Opinion, or has he seen more Evidence or even Discussions with those working on the Drafts that has made him conclude this?

The Source i had did try and hint at a Curve-ball, and that Mankind and NOT the Engineers are behind the Xenomorph... some other comments by them, seemed like they was teasing that the Engineers are Created by a Earlier Race of Mankind!

Seemed very odd when i mentioned it on here March 2015.

But then after Alien Covenant we had Steve Messing and Wayne Haags concepts for the Cathedral released.

TWO Artist.... same Building.... similar depictions...  that DONT look like our Engineers!

I would love to ask Wayne and Steve about those Concepts and WHY are those Ancient Humans depicted on them.

Firstly i will touch upon those points Ignorant Guy you made.

I think sometimes we do need to consider what the Directors and Writers have to say about various subjects, and YES what they say can be changed.  But indeed the intention of the Engineers Plot was to show these guys had played a Role in our Creation, they certainly are Genetically Connected.  When people only take on board what we see in the Movie then indeed things are not as CLEAR and become very Ambiguous. The RS comment regarding the Planet in Prometheus does-not have to be Earth, as you pointed out the intention was via the Elder Scenes to show that there was a Long Term Plan to come back.  Essentially the comment by RS is to suggest that EARTH is not the only place they have carried out these Rituals.  As you was indicating we also are shown that the Engineers are likely responsible for many of our Accomplishments in the Past, Architecture/Construction and Language too.

The DNA Match scene was a bit Flawed... it was to give some indication of a Genetic Connection and thus to show us that we came from the Engineers.   But then we can take it to other Races of Humans, we all have different Features and Skin colors that are associated to Race yet a DNA Match would be the same, and we also see Humans can come in Various Sizes.  So even if we look at it as they are a MATCH for us, they could have some different Genes that make them a little different. 

If we take the Planet 4 Engineers they seem not really different to us, they have all the Features of a Human, they may have a Pale Complexion they may have No Hair and have some specific Face Proportions (Nose/Brow Ridge)  but we have to assume they have similar Organs Internally, they have Females and can Procreate and RS had suggested the Engineers on Planet 4 live for about 150 Years.  Alien Covenant implies these beings need Water/Food and apart from Pale Skin, No Hair and being about 25-30% Taller they essentially are NO different to us, maybe they are more Intelligent that seems likely.  But you could Engineer a Human to be Taller, to be more Intelligent to have some Specific Facial Traits even a Flawed Gene like what causes Major Alopecia but this Human would still give a 100% Human DNA Match.

The LV-223 Engineers are more Tricky it depends on if their Bio-Suits are actually something Engineered that attaches and binds to their Skin, or this is how they was Created/Evolved to.   I guess we could speculate with a Engineered Superhuman or Replicant would their DNA be a Match... i would say YES.

There certainly is a Theme at play that some dont seem to quite get or relate to or look past.  The concept for the Engineers from John Spaights was that we are a Result of Engineer DNA + Primate, but then indicated they came back over and over to further add more Engineer DNA.. so eventually we would come more closer to the Engineers.  I think Alien Engineers is a Good Source to try and Decode Prometheus.  But Ultimately it should not be considered as Canon, and if people only consider what Visually they see in the Theatrical Movies then it does leave a lot of Speculation and Ambiguity.   But when looking at John Spaights input and Ridley Scotts intentions i dont think what they intend is FAR off what they are intending to show us.

"OK. Engineers are space gardeners, but who said they sow only human species? "

Certainly LETO  the Gardeners of Space Plot does allow for various forms of Life, and so Humanoids should not be limited to just very Human Looking.... take Star Trek we have Bajoran, Betazoids, to a degree Vulcans and Romulans are all VERY Human looking, Klingons and Cardassians a little LESS Human and Ferengi too, but from a Genetic Standpoint they are NOT too different from us.

However other Humanoids are much Less Human, such as the Xindi and Jem'Hadar for a Example and so we can look at the PREDATORS as being similar, they are Humanoids but dont share a lot in common with Humans.

So indeed the Engineers could have taken part in Creating other NOT-SO Human looking Species just like the Four Armed beings that were Hunted by the Predator in Predator Fire and Stone.

So in Context to Various Alien Races, then indeed they dont all have to be Human looking or Connected, they also dont all have to be Created by the Engineers.  And indeed we could ponder about the Arcturians are they created by the Engineers?  I think it would be interesting to Visually see them as a Species in some Visual Format.

But in Context to the Topic (i dont mind discussing other things though).  It seems that maybe a lot of the Engineers intention was to Create Humanoids, but this does-not limit them to all being so Human as us.

We dont know WHY we was Created, i will get to that after, but you have to look at it from the Engineers POV. if they have a Humanoid Canvas then they surely would want to Tinker About with Variations and likely would do so on Different Worlds.  And so its when we see say Star Trek and see HOW close some of those Races look to Each other, they are Genetically closer to Humans than a Cat is to a Dog for instance... so we can Ponder where this connection lies. 

In Context to the Prometheus Franchise, then indeed there could be many various Humanoids where they could all Trace a Ancestor Route to some Predecessor that has been Engineered and Genetically Manipulated and Hybridized with various other Organisms to create a Variety of Different Species.

What we see in the Franchise so far is that the Planet 4 Engineers predate and are related to the LV-223 Engineers, but then Mankind are also Genetically related to them too.   The Hall of Heads beings could be the same as the Planet 4 beings, they could also be different and who the Engineers descended from.

If David was to take those Embryos and Engineer Traits, say he could activate Genomes at Will, he could maybe Create a 7-8ft Race of Humans, who have Specific Eye Color, who Physically have Good Athletic Genes, and Genes that would have them be more Intelligent.   Like say passing on Einsteins Genes that made him so Smart with Height of say  Kevin Nash (Wrestler) or Tall Basketball Player , the Speed of Usain Bolt if you could Engineer their Genomes that gave them the Traits that made them Superior in certain areas compared to the Average Person and Engineered Genes that would make them immune to certain Ailments/Defects so there Life Expectancy is better. (as some Humans can Live Past 100) then these Superior Humans would still have a Human DNA Match.

I guess its only say if David Engineered Certain Traits from other Organisms that their DNA would no-longer match!

I think we would have seen David try and Engineer a more Superior Human from those Embryos the Question would be HOW different would his Creations be?  I would assume Superior in many ways but Visually they would look Quite Human still.

@Queen Denton Welcome to the site!

@Topic

Almost every alien theory video I've seen says beings on Planet 4 aren't Engineers despite the filmmakers claiming they are. And then there's the most popular theory; SJ being different, superior species to the engineers.

Fan pressure indeed has a big impact on the development and the story of the film, because the studios will always try to please their fans because they think if they don't then they won't make as much money as intended.

I remember when the first AVP movie came out and it was rated PG-13, everyone went nuts. Then they made AVPR and it was rated hard R. And it didn't help or save the film. Fans complained about rating and studio just though fans want blood, violence, and gore.

I also remember when 10 Cloverfield Lane trailer came out, Cloverfield fans went insane because they were dying to see Cloverfield monster on the big screen. Then the film came out and it had very little to do with Cloverfield (2008), and that made the majority of fans disappointed. 10 Cloverfield lane itself was a pretty good film on its own. Even the producer J.J. Abrams said it's not a sequel or a prequel, but a blood relative to the first Cloverfield film. Fans, of course, begged for the Cloverfield monster so the next one was The Cloverfield paradox (2018), and that one despite having the monster fans wanted, was a pretty bad film.

I suspect if (Alien) fans continue to complain about the differences between the SJ and the engineers, and the SJ being a superior being, I suspect in the next film they might reveal that the SJ is one of David's creations, to differ it from the engineers.

In the book that contains all of David's drawings from AC, I think there's one interesting illustration. That specific illustration appears to depict a mutated engineer helmet, very similar to the Space Jockey head. I don't know who drew it, Dane Hallet or Matt Hatton. Idk if this is a reference/easter egg to the 1979 SJ, or did David really experiment with engineer suits.

If we don't want this to happen, then let's be quiet.

@All, by all account the Engineers are not just humanoid but humans, you cannot have completely human DNA but not be human. Culture is a bonus. Therefore cannot be more Engineer races, as there are is a single human race.

Gavin But does the directors/screen writers commentary and delete scenes weight anything for you at all?

The sacrificial engineer was noted that could have been on any planet in the commentary, but in a deleted scene the elder says something to the sacrificial victim about coming back. What do you think that means? Isn't that he will return as a renewed Engineer population? We also know that they groom the seeded planets so that what gets out is their ideal. And a big theme of the movie is about the relationship between Fathers and their offspring. Shaw and the guy from planet of the apes, David and Weyland, Vickers and Weyland, Humanity and old Humanity (Engineers). Also Lindelof (spit on him if you want), says that the scene between Weyland and the big bald dude is the scene from Blade Runner between Tyrell and Roy Batty, with the human in place of the replicant. Shaw's presentation of the painting might be just the tip of the ice-berg of her research, and finding the DNA and movie proves her. Sorry. Is this how science work, of course not.

Also we know that the tear shaped ship from the beginning is Engineer (also commentary), and their technology evolved to the doughnut shape, so no they did not stole that. Maybe they stole something but RS says that not that thing. There language was origin of those from Earth not the other way around. Like that before the destruction of Tower of Babel, so how is that primitive?

"The biomechanical augments are shown to be necessary to interface with the Juggernauts", on the contrary both Shaw and David piloted doughnuts without any. And the "augmented" Engineers interact with the ship by touching buttons, holograms, playing the recorder, using joysticks (as seen even in Alien '79). What implants do you need for that.

But your Obi-Wan quote is right, but your opinion is only based on your need for everything to have a dark and conspiratorial component.