New Replies (Page 217)

Very good catch on the AURORA song BigDave.  Love it.

Engineer DNA Match

"may be many Various Kinds of Humanoids."

"And indeed we could ponder about the Arcturians are they created by the Engineers?"

It would very interesting to me if the humanoids encountered, such as the Arcturians, were a match to human DNA as well.  

When taking Prometheus (Engineer sample DNA match to human DNA) into account, I assume the Arcturians would be a DNA match to human's DNA because they are so close to Earth...in the Engineer's neighborhood.

Leto brings up a good point about past civilizations discovering the rock paintings. By the time we had the ability to reach LV-223, it could have changed into a military/research base.

I am sure it was NOT a Invitation...

But certainly who knows how many Civilizations had been to LV-223, ATLANTIS is a Great Example.

Ridley Scott had mentioned the Engineers have Reset Worlds before and suggested they had done this on Earth before... mentioning Atlantis.

So he was indicating that the Downfall of the Atlanteans was at the Hands of the Engineers.

If we look at my Interpretation of the Engineers Agenda and the Juggernauts, then Bombarding the Engineers DNA on a World would RESET it.

Life would be Reset but with Engineer DNA and then it would not take too long before the World is back to what it was.

Using Xeno/Deacon based DNA just makes NO sense!

It could be likely some Engineers at some point encountered something related to the Deacon/Xenomorph and they had become Perverted with the Concept that this Organism is more Perfect...

Maybe attempting to use its DNA to Evolve themselves?

What if the LV-223 Engineers are Sub-Created Slaves and Clones and so like Replicants to the Planet 4 Engineers. (Hence they have NO Nipples)

A Sub-species that are Engineered, or Engineered themselves to the point they CANT procreate..

Encountering a Organism that then would allow these beings to GIVE BIRTH to something could be seen as Interesting to these beings who then decide the Result has the Potential, and so they begin to Experiment on this Species....  hence the Experiments that latter occurred on LV-223?

This is how i have always been drawn to the connection...

Maybe the Organism was sent as a Punishment or it came about when some Engineers had attempted to Engineer themselves with the DNA of something Else.

I assume at some-point either of these led to the First Encounter with what would Predate the Deacon/Xenomorph DNA and potentially could be the Fresco Creature.

The Perverted, Corrupt and Fallen Engineers then seeing the DNA of the Deacon as being more Ideal to EVOLVE Worlds than their own DNA that came from their Creators the Planet 4 Engineers.

The LV-223/Prometheus Engineers thus being similar to Lucifer and David in Agenda.

"One (of many) problems with David being the creator of the xenomorph is that the pathogen is already created by the engineers aeons ago"

Absolutely all he has merely done is Experimented with the Bio-Weapon to Create his own Variant.

Prior to Alien Covenant its likely and indicated the Engineers Created the Xenomorph maybe by similar Processes to what David had done in Alien Covenant.

I understand the reason behind the U-Turn.. but i feel the reason for this would have been Perfectly Suited to showing David take the Engineers Work and Create a Different Variant that is SUPERIOR to the Deacon and Xenomorph.

But ALAS!

@LONE

Fantastic Reply... right on the Money as far as HOW Fans can look at the Franchise.. a Excellent Post.

If this the invitation...

Maybe some early Earth civilization already flew to LV-223? Atlantis, for example.

"According to me, the lyrics of “A Different Kind of Human” is about humanity and that we have become corrupt. But, there are some individuals that are pure and given the chance of getting away from Earth (by a higher power) and start all over."

;)

Indeed thats how i connect it, i feel the Engineers would Logically come back to TAKE some Humans away before they RESET the World!

Children would be the IDEAL choice... Innocent and Pure.

This is similar to what has been done in Movies before... such as Knowing 2009 (Spoiler for End)

It was one way i was thinking of making a Story about them, but i never got further than a Broad Base of Plot ideas...

Prior to that i felt they was a Species of Hermaphrodites but latter i considered what do they gain from Humanoids coming to Visit them?  Do they just enjoy SEX?  Do they make Money/Trade from it?

So i pondered that other Idea... but there are conflicts with this as we have to ask HOW did they Procreate for Hundreds and Thousands of years prior?

Did the Engineers perform this Function in the Past or Humans the Engineers had taken to Arcturus?

So yeah there are Flaws in the Needing Human Seed to Procreate.... so maybe not the best idea.  Also makes the Plot a little more like Species too.

The Various Moebius influences are very Prominent.

So the Arcturians as Shape-shifters?  Who knows ;)

There is always some Ambiguity with the Prequels and a lot depends on HOW you try and look at the Prequels and for some the Center Point seems to be the Xenomorph/Black Goo Horrors, Bio-Weapons and Warlike beings wishing to use such on Mankind or to simply just Procreate such things...

Ridley Scott seems to indicate the Engineers as Gardeners of Space more than Warmongering Genocidal would be Gods.

I was going to reply to this Topic Earlier but was busy, however hox seems to be on the Right Track ;)

We need to look at some of the Basics that appeared to be indicated for what the Engineers Plot was... this would require taking into account what Production has said which includes RS and scenes that are CUT...   If we look at the Theatrical Cut then we can come to a different Conclusion.

*The PLOT behind the Engineers is the Ancient Aliens/Gods and Chariots of the Gods Theory... Which is that we was NOT Created by a Magical Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Being (GOD) or the Product of a Big Bang and Evolution.  But that we are the Product of a Ancient Alien Species who had Played a Part in the Creation, Evolution and Interaction/Knowledge of our Species.  These would-be GODS are who we Interpret as our Gods from various Mythos/Religion.

*We should NOT assume the Sacrificial Scene was on Earth, it was merely to indicate this is the Process the Engineers Seed Worlds, but this is ONLY a part of the Process, they Continue to Experiment and Evolve their Experiments over Countless Thousands of Years.

*LV-223 was indicated as a Location going back at least 35'000 Years ago.  Yet the Engineers only intended to Set Off 2000 Years ago to use those Bio-Weapons on us.. WHY wait that long?

*LV-223 was a Hostile Environment for Life on Earth, we could not Survive more than TWO Minutes on that World, yet inside the Complex and Ships there is a Atmosphere that is Breathable for us..  YET! the Engineers appear to NOT need any Space Suits to Breath on the Surface and we can assume the Xenomorph does-not need the same Environment to Support Life that we do.

So WHY would they invest in this place being able to SUPPORT Life from Earth?

We need to look at the Engineers from the Creationist Stand Point from the Gardeners of Space Stand Point.

A lot of TIME and investment must go into either Discovering Suitable Worlds or Terra-forming them.

A lot of TIME and investment must go into the Seeding and Evolution of Life on said Worlds.

If you main Objective is to Create Life, Experiment with Life in the aim to Evolve and Perfect your Creations, then ideally you would want some kind of SAND-BOX

If you was a Gardener and you have Great Gardens with a all Manner of Plants, Flowers, Crops, Fruit and Vegetables.    When you decide to Experiment with these to Create Better Versions or Hybrids it would be WISE to do so in some kind of GREEN-HOUSE and then when you are Pleased with the Results and that they would NOT affect the Garden you have, then you would take your NEW and improved Experiments and Seed/Plant them in the Garden.

I believe that THIS was what LV-223 was.. a Green-House a SANDBOX. The Star Maps are thus saying "this is where we created you"

Lets look at the Sacrificial Scene....  Engineer Consumes the GOO, his Body is Broken Down and then these Broken Down Molecules then Form into something NEW that then either.

1) Reform into the Basic Building Blocks of Life (however the Scene shows the World has Planet Life and so likely has Basic Life already).

2) The Process is the Catalyst that allows for the Engineers DNA to pass on to Basic Life and EVOLVE it into Complex Life and thus Kick Start the Evolution to Complex Life.

If we look at Jon Spaights idea of Nano-Scrabs to Decode the GOO then we see those Scarabs Consume the Engineer and STORE his DNA we see ONE of these Scarabs then Bite a Primate and Pass on the Engineers DNA.. this indicating this Process is what began our Origins...

Sacrificed/Stored Engineer DNA ==> Primate ==> Early Mankind.

What if this Engineer was in some Container when he was Sacrificed and those Scarabs that Consumed him then was collected and Stored into Containers?  (Urns) we can assume that dropping a Container that Breaks Open would see those Scarabs unleashed and IF they then Bite a Primate then we would get the SAME Result!

Replace Scarabs for GOO and so the Prometheus Engineer was Sacrificed in a Container and the Broken Down Material is then Collected into URNS... then we can assume that Dropping the Contents of the URN into the Water Fall would be the SAME result!

The Seeding Scene is a VERY long time ago... to send down a Engineer drop him off on a Planet and have him Consume the Sacrificial Scarabs/Goo is the way they did things but what if they had more Control?  By that what if they made the Engineers Sacrifice themselves in another Place and COLLECTED the resulting Material into URNS.

You then have SHIPS that DROP these onto a World Instead and we get the same EFFECT... only more Efficient!

Does that make sense?

Are the Juggernauts/Urns just a more Advanced/Efficient way of Seeding the Engineers?

Lets look at this Comment by Ridley Scott.

"That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself. If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera."

The Prequels talk about Immortality... you are Immortalized by your Deeds, what you are remembered for, what you Created (Art, Music) and from your Seed (Family Generations). Some are Remembered by Monuments.

Lets look at some of the Dialog from Elders Scene that was not shown..   The Elder had said to the Sacrificial Engineer... "Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters. And may your soul become their way back to us."

Take those TWO Quotes into Account  and then look at Planet 4 and look at those Monuments those Statues and that the Engineers seem to take Great Pride in their WAYS..  and its a Honor to be Chosen as a Sacrifice to Seed Worlds.

Then if we consider this to be the case, then being selected as a Sacrifice, where your Donation would end up having you LIVE-ON via passing on your Genetic Material and then having a Statue Erected of you in your Honor could be seen as TWO ways to gain some kind of Immortality.

If we look at Paradise its a place only the Worthy/Pure and Honorable are deemed to be allowed to LIVE..  It in other contexts is a Walled City that the Garden of Eden was located, where the Cradle of Life Began...

Thus what if those Engineers are the deemed Worthy Genetic Stock the Engineers select to SEED Worlds?

Take all this into account and then look at WHY the Engineers were welcoming the Juggernaught, and WHY they had NO Fear until the Bombardment.

Take this into account and ask IF these Ships were WARSHIPS then why did they lack any Defense Mechanisms?

Look at Davids Workshop for Experimenting and Creating Various Hybrids in the Pursuit of Perfection and ASK... what happens if some of these get loose on Planet 4 and this Planet was full of Life.. 

Any undesired Experiments could IMPACT the World and Life on it....  Would it NOT be better to Experiment on a Separate World... in Complexes that are Separated from Each Other?

This is WHAT i think LV-223 was..... a Sandbox!

Take that into account... if a Complex has Experiments that Need a Habitat like Earth to Survived should ANY escape the Complex they would DIE before they reach the other Complexes..

This makes Perfect Sense for why LV-223 was Hostile Outside and the Separation of Each Complex?

IF you have bared with me by NOW.. thanks... this has been my Interpretation of the Space Gardeners, Paradise and LV-223.

The fresco depicts a location in space some 35,000 years ago, long before the Engineers turned on humanity (which we know was about 2,000 years ago).

The Engineers just left their calling card to humans living in primitive societies, that's all. Here's where we came from, since you ask.

The question is, what were Engineers doing on LV-223 tens of thousands of years ago? There are numerous 'pyramids' there, each superficially similar. It may be the case that the inhabitants of LV-223 were tasked with both seeding civilisations on new worlds (e.g. us), and pruning out the failures (also us, but after a long trial). Long before they got involved with humanity, the Engineers were seeding and weeding other civilisations for perhaps millions of years.

Lone

I agree. The story is ambiguous and open enough to take any turn (e.g. whether David is the creator of the xenomorph or just delusional). A sequel must rake in dollars so a contemplative or action movie?

Leto

Yes, but they tell us where they are . . .

"The invitation" is just Shaw's interpretation.

Rock paintings may look/read (for caveman) like that:

High man points to the planets:

- See these planets? Don't fly to them!

The ambiguous elements do serve a purpose.

For one thing, they allow us to selfishly tailor our own ideas, likes, preferences & wants into how we view many elements from both Prometheus & Covenant. Thereby making the things we don't particularly like about the prequels more malleable, palatable or acceptable for ourselves.

Also, it allows for a get-out-of-jail card if it appears the story has been backed into a corner! Not really a satisfactory situation, but there you have it.

They also create a sounding board for the franchise, allowing the studio to pick & choose, find out what works or doesn't, like an ever evolving risky experiment.

For everyone who dislikes Prometheus, there is someone who enjoys it, likewise with Covenant. The problem being that each sequel changes focus to a certain extent after a backlash from certain quarters of the fanbase. In a way we are all responsible for that!

At this point in time the story could still evolve in ways which would be pleasing for many of us. But who is listening & gauging reaction? With such a broad variety of opinion across the internet, who has the final say?

It's dangerous ground, very dangerous ground!

For those of us who stick with it, they have us dangling by a slender thread.

I hope Sir Ridders is allowed at least one more outing. This story must reach a conclusion. 

Whatever happens in the future, the only thing I am certain of is that it will cause much shock, anger, frustration, controversy, speculation, admiration & downright pleasure. 

Concerning Aurora and the topic of this post . . .

According to me, the lyrics of “A Different Kind of Human” is about humanity and that we have become corrupt. But, there are some individuals that are pure and given the chance of getting away from Earth (by a higher power) and start all over.

AC could have taken another turn given the mini-films (such as “The Crossing”). The trailer-song “Nature Boy” is interesting since, in this context, it must have referred to David who is the strange, sad and lonely boy who wanders very far and seeks the love he has not been given by his creators (Weyland and humanity).

David could perhaps have been “saved” by Shaw but his exposure to psychological maltreatment leads to hate and vengeance instead.

Shaw is "a different kind of human" but could she really love a synthetic? Could she really have saved him?

Ah, I had forgotten about the male counterpart to Sil, Dave.

I like your idea of them needing human seed to produce the male, that would dovetail nicely & at least they would have some positive benefit from such relations, rather than merely being a species exploited purely for pleasure.

You're right about that similarity dk ;

Hah, how cool would it be to connect The Thing & the Alien by way of their origin. 

Think of the Arcturians as the exploited pleasure model variant of The Thing! Lol

BigDave

One (of many) problems with David being the creator of the xenomorph is that the pathogen is already created by the engineers aeons ago. It is the pathogen which mutates organisms into deadly beasts (in order to extinguish life). The pathogen either gives rise to the xenomorph or the xenomorph’s DNA is part of the “anti-elixir”.

In Prometheus (apart from the mural depicting the whole xenomorph life cycle) we see what the pathogen can “create”: hammerpedes, trilobites, deacons etc.

In Alien: Covenant, the pathogen has eradicated all indigenous fauna. The pathogen has mutated fungi into lethal spore carriers which, if they infect a hominid (what would be the outcome if a deer or bear would be infected?), a neomorph is the result. A neomorph is as deadly as a xenomorph (and related to it).

So, even if they want us to believe that David is the creator of the xenomorph, there still has been in the past and in “the present” other variants, just as deadly. If the pathogen contains DNA from a beast the engineers have stumbled upon, perhaps it was even deadlier - an über-xenomorph?

Between Lone's and BigDave's ideas and illustrations, it reminds me a bit of The Thing. It is a shape shifter of shorts but requires a species' DNA in order to mimic it. Just an idea and not suggesting there is a relation. But the mystery of what The Thing actually is seems similar to the mystery of the The Black Goo- something that initially was an accident and took on a life of its own.

"I've always felt that the Urns in the unexplored LV-223 silos contained different Deacon-related variants & or specimens gathered from, completely different species throughout the Universe"

This would FIT Perfectly with the Gardner's of Space Agenda.  We did see in Prometheus the Urns had Various Sizes... which was Strange for a Bio-Weapon.

We have 5 Temple Complexes and it seems Each Complex has Multiple Rooms.  So its Likely Each Temple had a Variant Organism Experiments or even each Temple could have inside Multiple Variants too.

Alien Engineers indicated the Engineers had 7/8 Variants of the Xenomorph and it seemed to imply those were Engineered from something they had Discovered.

I am drawn to the LV-223 Complex being something Very Different in the Past more connected to Space Gardening rather than Produce Xenomorphs and the like.

But trying to get back to the OT...

Yes the Arcturians could maybe trace their Origins back to LV-223 too.

Regarding the Fresco Creature... it does have a similarity to the Door Way Arches especially the Concept Work one.  This Beast is a Very interesting Enigma.   While i DONT think its the Arcturians we maybe cant rule out the Arcturians  having a similar Aesthetic as the Xenomorph was based partly on HR Gigers Concept but it also had Reptile/Insect Influences.  The HR Giger Aesthetic is a Mixture of Bio-Mechanical, Feminine with Reptile/Insect Aesthetic.

The Fresco Creature does bear a bit of a Resemblance to the Male Organism from Species 3.  

While a Different Franchise... Species does use the HR Giger Aesthetic.  And you could see that Aesthetic does have Elements of Humanoid with Reptilian and Insectoid Traits.  

So maybe the Arcturians  could have a similar Aesthetic?

The Engineers Under Pressure Suits have that similar Aesthetic too.

I had about 2 Years ago i think, pondered and i think i mentioned on here then, that i had a idea about the Arcturians as a Species that had a bit of a Agenda for Sleeping with Humanoids...  in that they required from Time to Time our DNA well SEED! 

Going Further that this is required to Create the Male Species which do-not LIVE forever and so they need to Mate with some Humanoids in order to Obtain a Male Versions of their Species.

But ALAS this was many of the ideas i had, that i never Progressed as FAR as in depth Fleshing Out.

I had envisioned their Species to be somewhat Aquatic looking more than Reptilian but still have a bit of Reptilian to them, but also to have a bit of that HR Giger Aesthetic like from Species, but also to have some Human Traits too.

A Species that would say be like 15% Similar to a Grey Alien like Traits, 15% Human, 15% Reptilian,  40% Aquatic with a 15% HR Giger like Gloss Over.

Grey-ish Blue in Color with some Pattern and a Race that is very Feminine in Shape/Features but LACK any Breast as their Young are Laid as Eggs and do-not get Breast Fed.

Thats kind of how i Envisioned them... but i lack any real Artistic Skills to do them justice in a Drawing LOL

Wayne and Steven both did some Concept work on the Cathedral and both it looked the same apart from Slight Differences regarding the Human looking Figures on the Doorway/Entry to the Temple. 

While this may bear no connection any longer, it is interesting HOW those TWO had depicted very similar, instead of Bald Humanoids.   The whole Creation/Chariots of Gods Plot does open up many ways to explore the Connections and History.

Some Fans Speculate the Engineers tried to Re-Create their GOD (Deacon) other that trying to Re-Create such a Beast was the SIN/FALL of some Engineers.

What Irony and Curveball it would be if the Prometheus Engineers attempted to Re-Create their Creators (Planet 4 Engineers) very Own Creators... a Earlier Version of Humanity!

Thus....

Earlier Humans ==> Planet 4 Engineers ==> LV-223 Engineers ==> Humans on Earth.

We see Modern Humans Create David... but what if a Synthetic Being had Created the Earlier Humans and those Synthetic Beings were Created by a Bio-Mechanical Species?

Starbeast ===> Synthetic Race ===> Early Humans ===> Planet 4 Engineers ===> LV-223 Engineer ===> Modern Humans ===> Synthetic Race ===> Bio-Mechanical Horror.

Ps Indeed hox, Ridley would tell you that MOEBIUS was very much an influence on Blade Runner, Prometheus & Covenant. Even his storyboard style & also his latest ad for Hennessy is packed with Moebius imagery.

Below are two threads you might want to check out, one by Ingeniero, second one posted by Big Dave.

The Seven Worlds - Directed by Ridley Scott

A Parting Gift

@hox Yes, that was a bit of a stretch by me & not a very satisfactory one.

Like many here I've wanted to find out exactly what connection this beastie has to the lifecycle. It appears to have some significance given that it is featured above some of the doorways in the Silo and the Juggernaut. I'd love to see a living version of it, but I doubt that it will ever be revisited! If Ridley had been allowed to follow through from Prometheus, then perhaps, but alas, I seriously doubt that we will ever see anything so novel, awe-inspiring & interesting again! 

The murals are perhaps merely symbolic in that they depict the fate of the LV-223 Engineers/fallen angels/clones/Prometheus after they stole from their masters. Meaning that beaked species has no further significance. However much I wish it wasn't so!

@Lone, that's a slam dunk as far as I'm concerned. I'd heard before that Ridley's Prometheus was heavily influenced by Mobius. I mean, that's an Engineer in the bed, and he ends up fighting a creature trying to pull him into an airlock (slide 16)!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Cameron had also seen this, and picked up on the Arcturian reference. Seems too much of a coincidence otherwise.

I don't believe the Mural creature is an Arcturian. Whatever it is, it's something nasty picking on the Engineer's liver. We don't know who sent it, but the Prometheus link suggests that it was the handiwork of the Engineer's creators.

Could the Mural creature be an Arcturian?

Just for you dk: Gigers Alien Monster VI

The Engineers, or those above them may well have created & adapted many non-human species.

I've always felt that the Urns in the unexplored LV-223 silos contained different Deacon-related variants & or specimens gathered from, completely different species throughout the Universe. Or in the case of LV-223 perhaps just hostile lifeforms, which could be used for destruction. Of course, that was after Prometheus, now I'm not so sure!

I think Jim Cameron may have been influenced by the Dan O'Bannon-Moebius Arcturian from The Long Tomorrow. 

After all, the Bishop knife trick was certainly a nice homage to the O'Bannon-Carpenter penned Dark Star.

Dark Star "The Knife Game"

What if the Arcturians are genderless shape-shifters, taking the form of anyone you want them to be? Sound too good to be true? Then it probably is, see below :)

BigDave Yes from the release of those early script I've said that those drawings are Synth porn. At least that was unique.

@chli Why ask Haag? Wasn't the cathedral Steven Messing concept? Wasn't Haag also the one that said something along the line that Covenant shifted back to what was important, namely David? 

"BigDave: Yes, it would be interesting to hear what Haag has to say about the temple on "Paradise". What was it's function?"

I would not just be asking him about its Function!

I would be asking WHY the Concept works seemed to depict other beings than our BALD Engineers and WHY in these there are NO Engineers at all.

I think many Fans do still TRY and bring the Prequels around to the Xenomorph or Related and Assume the Center Point has to be about Sacrifice to Procreate these Monsters....  I feel this is NOT the case... bare in mind that the sequels was to STEER away from the Xenomorph.  We have to assume the Xenomorph Shinanigans was something the Engineers got caught up in a LONG time after they had set out to Seed and Evolve Life on Worlds and Teach their Creations various Knowledge.

I also think knowing HOW Deadly the Xenomorph is and Black Goo Created Monsters...  And looking at Planet 4 and what means they have of Containment... it would be VERY FOOLISH to Host Eggs or Related in that Cathedral.

Certainly the Cathedral is a Center Point to the Engineers ways and Rituals, their Ways and Rituals seem to be about Creation, Seeding Worlds and this required Sacrifice.

IF look at the Prequels... STRIP everything related to the Xenomorph out, and look at only what could connect to a Plot that Mankind was a Creation by some Alien Humanoids, and we was Created in their Image and the Sacrificial Scene (inc the Elders too) is KEY to how they Begin this...

Then PLANET 4 and LV-223 will start to make PERFECT sense ;)

The Reaction to the Juggernaught by those Engineers makes sense, the Juggernaught as NOT a War Machine will make Sense.

"By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind"

I think this is one of the MAJOR Questions that would have been answered by a Prometheus 2 the Engineers Plot and Agenda is still very Ambigious

One Major Question would have been WHY did they NOT come back and FINISH the job?  The Logical Answers would revolve around.

*Do those Engineers on Paradise know about the intended Destruction of Mankind, and they also seek the same?

*Do those Engineers on Paradise know what became of LV-223 and those Experiments, was it always a place to Experiment with Xenomorph like Horrors?

*If they was aware of both counts.... could they have determined the Method of Destruction that was something they COULD-NOT contain was deemed FOLLY and they ABANDONED the Complex.  (if this was the case its likely the arrogant Engineers would feel that without their Help Mankind would NEVER evolve far and become a Threat and we would just end up Destroying ourselves so they leave us to ROT).

These are things i had pondered and discussed on here a number of times prior to Alien Covenant.

The revelations in Alien Covenant, and from RS comments would maybe shed some light on the FALLEN ANGELS aspect, maybe by Virtue of the LV-223 Engineers being as such.  RS had mentioned that they are NOT the original Engineers and that those Planet 4 ones are and so maybe their is a similar connection between Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 as there is with Humans and David?

For me i see a lot of evidence that connects to the Creationist Plot rather than to Center around a Xenomorph Bio-Weapon Infatuated Race of Engineers.

Maybe i will have to Start a Topic on that subject. but its something i had mentioned on various topics quite a lot especially after Alien Covenant.

"At the end of Prometheus, Shaw has 2 things left her faith"

Certainly i forget to indicate that i meant she had NOTHING as in to go back to Earth for ;)

She certainly clutched on to her Faith in spite of revelations and certainly wanted to go to discover these Engineers for Answers.  I just wondered if she could have had Children would that had affected her a little?

Regarding her having Children on Planet 4, this was just something i wondered when we saw this leaked image.

some Speculated those Skulls in the Bottom Left Corner could be some Native Primate, i noticed they was actually Very Much Human Infant Skulls... that got me to wonder had David managed to allow Dr Shaw to bare Children but then he used them for experiments?

But seeing latter images that confirmed Female Engineers i realized maybe they could be infant Engineers too.  Which with the release of AC and Davids drawings we had this confirmed.

I do think potentially David could have tried to offer Dr Shaw something similar, in that he could help her to Create Life, and you are VERY right in that she would be Very Cautious considering the last time he played  apart in anything similar he was responsible for the Trilobite so there is a Great Chance she would say NO!

And this pretty much may be something that happened, it depends what is meant by him offering to Create a New Eden.... because he also said he wanted to Evolve her but she declined...  some of his drawings of Dr Shaw do depict her as being MORE than Human but in NO way a Xenomorph... so maybe he felt he could Evolve Dr Shaw to become a Hybrid and then with her Create a New Civilization of Hybrids... which she REJECTED!

It appears from his Workshop and Drawings that he had been experimenting with Engineer Infants, it was said that he felt the Engineers Biology did not yield as good results as a Humans....

so we could Speculate exactly what this meant.. it could be as far as a Face Hugger + Human Host... but then it could be Human Egg Cells for Experiments... and who knows maybe he could have used her to create some Off-Spring.   There is the Potential that Engineers and Humans could be Compatible or if not quite.. maybe David could discover a way to do so.

But this is all Speculative... Certainly David had some ALIVE Engineers to experiment with, including Infants.

Who knows what POWER the GOO has and how well David knows how to use it and Manipulate it.... if he has any of Dr Shaw's DNA then maybe he could use this with the Embryo's to kind of Create a Clone of her?

Hallett and Hatton were quite ambiguous to Davids drawings of Dr Shaw, suggesting maybe he Resurrected her over and over, maybe he Cloned her or maybe they are just his Vivid and Disturbed Dreams/Fantasies...  One of the Alien Covenant Drafts indicates the latter.

"By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind, or may even have issued the order", who it is reasonable to believe that? If the Engineers don't live by some method for thousands of years those who issued the order is long dead. We also know that the Engineers abandoned their goo Armageddon habits from Advent at least 2000 years ago as they never tried to nuke Earth again. And there also is the possibility that the LV Engineers are a rebel group (the fallen angel variety). 

David however could be still be following a secret directive unknown even to him, as it was suggested sometime ago.

And why nobody brings up that he signed his Drawings as David Weyland, pretty much wanting to inherit something he hates.

@BigDave

At the end of Prometheus, Shaw has 2 things left her faith (probably in a benevolent God) and the need to find what above the Engineers in the creation ladder. That is more than nothing and is motivation enough to begin her dangerous journey to find them. To exchange that with being experimented upon with a weapon by the synth she knows killed Charlie in the faith hope she could procreate sounds very iffy to me.

"it is a shameless plug."

Ha Ha indeed.... but its nice to see such Decent Low Budget Attempts...

I think Disney could make a few little Shorts, that Tease/Cover some aspects related to the Franchise... they could then Gauge Reaction to these to Determine which thing the Fans would adere too and which things would be a Waste of Money if they Centered a Movie around.

Look at the ALIEN 40th Anniversary Shorts, surely Disney could release say 4-6 such Shorts that cover different aspects of the Franchise, Each being 3X Longer and 3-5X more Budget.

If we look at the  Short... and imagine similar little teasers like this done in Alien Analects Live Action then they could see HOW the Fans  React...

The Anniversary Shorts seem to be more ALIEN based, but they could do some more to cover other Aspects of the Franchise... Engineers, Interaction  between Engineers and Humans some Experiments on LV-223, the Engineers Experimenting with other Kinds of Humanoid Creations.

Colonial Marines on a Bug Hunt Short (not Xenomorphs) or a Training Camp Short with Banter that shows say a Young Sergeant Apone

We could cover AI as in Synthetics in a Short..

Weyland-Yutani Rivalry...

The List is Endless. They only have to be 20-30 Minutes and then Disney could use them to GAUGE what Fans would be more inclined towards...

However i think for the most Part Disney would consider that the best Venture would be another BUG HUNT!

I would Gladly come up with some Various Shorts. I could not contribute to the Anniversary Competition due to my Location.

"I don't see David using the two Facehuger Embryo's, the 2000 colonists and their embryo's, or any samples of the black goo to create any variation of the human race"

We certainly get that idea.... and having Today Finally Discovered and Read the TWO Drafts for Alien Covenant it does further paint the Picture that his Agenda is purely to Perfect and Mass Produce his Masterpiece.

If this was his Agenda... what kind of a Movie does that make? he would also had been wise to NOT transmit the Advent Video until he has Perfected his Horde of Xenomorphs.... unless he uses this as Bait thinking the Company would go to LV-223 and Planet 4 and the Horrors there would be Mankinds Downfall...  the Company being more Interested in this than to pursue David, so that he has more Time on his Hands to Perfect his Creation.

I was more drawn to things like how David had offered Dr Shaw a chance to Start a New Eden, from the Ashes of the Engineers World and how he would offer to Evolve her.

Before the Sequel... i had always looked at WHY it is Dr Shaw wants to find the Engineers... the answer was she has NOTHING else left!   However.... if she could have been able to have Children would she still had wanted to go to Paradise?

So i always speculated that maybe David would offer Dr Shaw a means to be able to Procreate, in that he could find a way that SHE could have Children.

Time Passes, and we get to the Sequel, well the Build up to Release and we saw those Leaked Images from his Workshop and i noticed that those Tiny Skulls looked more like Human Infant Skulls... so then i Speculated on here that maybe David indeed manages to offer Dr Shaw a chance to CREATE...   If he could use Engineer DNA with the Pathogen to Create Humanoid Fetus from her Defected Egg Cells.

It was only after the Release of Alien Covenant and revelation of Female Engineers that David had examined and infants that those Skulls were in FACT the Engineers Infants.

So i was wrong on that Theory... but for David who loved Dr Shaw and Dr Shaw having No Children i felt it was still something that could have been explored.

When i then look at the Comment by David about how he had offered Dr Shaw the Chance to Create a New Eden, i wondered if he offered her a Chance to Birth some kind of Humanoid, maybe Hybrid... surely Dr Shaw may have been open to that?   She surely would have Rejected being used to create Xenomorph, Deacon and Neomorph like Horrors and David would surely knew She would Reject such... 

So i wondered what kind of Eden did he offer Dr Shaw?

I look at how he viewed his treatment by Mankind and Weyland and how he looked at Dr Shaw... it appeared that he felt Mankind was not a Worthy Race for the Most Part but there was some who he had Faith in.. such as Dr Shaw.

I then look at his comment to Daniels in regards to "what kind of world" they could create/build.... which he replies "if we are kind, it will be a kind world"

This led me to speculate that maybe he would not be purely looking to Create Xenomorphs, i wondered what plans he would have... but with Daniels knowing who is was is a Problem... but then the Human Embryo's i felt was something that David could RAISE and Imprint what ever kind of History, Mythology and Origin and Rules upon.... so i pondered this Plot Theory.

Then we had RS come out and talk about the Next Movie in how it WOULD-NOT be about the Xenomorph but about AI and "what kind of a world" it is that David would create.  And when RS talked about AI and implied the Replicants are AI....   this made me conclude that David would LIKELY take those Embryo's and Create his own SUPERIOR Humans from them.

IF however.. we ONLY look at the Movie and Advent, then it appears the conclusion would be to MASS-PRODUCE the Xenomorph which Conflicts RS comments about the Next Movie is NOT about the Xenomorph.

I think this is what we would have been shown... but as of NOW the Movie is in Limbo... and WHEN/IF we get a continuation it may be something Totally Different to what Ridley Scott had intended.

"It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the engineers’ skill”

Having Finally downloaded and Read TWO previous Alien Covenant Drafts i can confirm that the Drafts  Paradise Lost August 19th 2015 and Alien Covenant November 20th 2015 Do-Not have any such Scene that lends to David discovering the Egg, both Drafts imply that David is the Creator of the Ovomorphs his Masterpiece.

They both differ a little in the Creation of them, in that the one draft implies that  Dr Shaw was one of the Test Subjects for the Face Hugger but she did-not survive long (implies the Gestation was not successful).  But both drafts seem to Basically imply that the Pathogen had infected some Mold and from these Grew Small Eggs (latter be the Spore Casing) and inside these were Tiny Nano Insects that infect and Create Neomorphs... and David had basically Experimented with these and Cross-hyrbid them (likely various Organisms) to create the Xenomorph.

Both drafts are a little different but looking at the TWO overall they both have the Chest Buster as exactly the same as in ALIEN (Snakelike) there are NO real references to HOW our Dr Shaw was used... only in the One Draft it mentions that David was trying to Evolve Her, make her Immortal and that David intends to do the same with Daniels (not to Rape Her) but he does then also Force her to Kiss him....

This is the First Time i had read any of these drafts i could not find them but they are on https://www.avpgalaxy.net

I rarely if ever visit the site, mainly due to if he get intrigued to join in their Forums i would end up having to BUY a New Keyboard every 6 Months ;)

But it seems my hunches on how David had created the Xenomorph from the clues i had looked at, are pretty much what appears to have happened (thanks to those Drafts which seem to confirm similar).

So the Neomorph Spores are what David had Re-Engineered and using them and the Black Goo on other Organisms he created various Organisms before making a Amalgamation of the preferred traits to Create his Xenomorph.

The Drafts do-not indicate that Dr Shaw's Reproductive System was used in the Process... which is what i assumed because prior to Alien Covenant the closest we got to a Xenomorph was the Deacon via Dr Shaws Fetus the Trilobite, which to me indicated a Infected Egg Cell or Sperm that Fertilized a Egg Cell would be the cause for the Trilobite.   Looking how i interpreted the Goo from Prometheus and then Spaights Draft (which i came across 7-9 Months latter) looking at how the theory i had and what Spaights draft showed, had indicated that David could create a Specimen that is a Cross-Hybrid and then obtain its DNA and Infect Dr Shaw's Egg Cells with this to Create the Xenomorph.

Despite the TWO drafts for Alien Covenant not going into detail to confirm such, the Davids Notes and Drawings seem to indicate this (Humanoid Egg Cells) is the case.

HOWEVER.................

Things can Change... some may use ADF's Novel as PROOF that David did-not create the Xenomorph, but it appears without doubt that the information that supports this in the Novel is something that was ADDED by Alan Dean Foster and NOT in the Drafts.

Unless this Information was from a Prior or Later Draft, but i Find that Doubtful, Casting had began about a Month after the November 20th 2015 Alien Covenant Draft and i would ASSUME this was the Draft that Alan Dean Foster worked with.

But just because the Indication and Plot is that David actually DID create the Xenomorph or at least its Predecessor, things could change due to Fan-Pressure again.

Doing another U-Turn would be Flawed.... i would rather see that David is revealed as the Middle Man and someone else comes across Davids Work and EVOLVES it to their Hubris (Space Jockey).

Gavin, David wanted to be loved, but Peter Weyland wasn't Geppetto.

His intense desire for love was transformed in hatred for mankind. David is bipolar as hell, he GOES from One Extreme to another in a glimpse of an eye. He declames poetry because he likes to hear his own voice, due to his Giant ego. David has so many contradictions in his character. He hates mankind, but he loves an audience full of humans. Maybe he creates, because he doesn't want to be lonely. In Prometheus, he watches the dreams of the crew, while they sleep. So much sadness, to watch dreams of others like a TV show, to fight his loneliness.

Going back to the topic of the OP,

I don't see David using the two Facehuger Embryo's, the 2000 colonists and their embryo's, or any samples of the black goo to create any variation of the human race. David has been shown to have psychotic, psychopathic, sociopathic, homicidal, and genocidal tendencies, chiefly towards mankind. With such hatred towards humans, I don't see why David would want to see our existence continue, in any shape or form, especially when in Advent he declared he wanted to wipe us from existence.

However, the irony is that this hatred and his perception of his superiority over his creator are misplaced, and despite his alleged intelligence David somehow is oblivious to this. David is a shell, filled with human knowledge, created by human knowledge, created in the human image, and created to emulate the human condition. David is Pinocchio, and as such should be looking to attain his humanity not seeking/developing the means to wipe out humanity in any and all of its forms because if he does so he will have no one with which to converse and no one of which to serve. Because whether he wants to admit or not David was and forever will be a servant.

His experimentations into the Protomorph are a clear example of this. In Prometheus he discovered the black goo and was ordered by his creator Peter Weyland to "try harder", to experiment with what he had found and to study it and uncover its secrets, its possibilities. On Planet 4 David is merely continuing Weyland's work, Weyland's orders. David is still serving mankind and Mankind's interests. Take the attack on the Planet 4 Engineers. The Last Engineer was hellbent on completing its orders of destroying mankind but was stopped. By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind, or may even have issued the order, Thus their destruction by Davids' hand serves mankind, serves his creators.

The character of David could have been used to comment on the human condition and the many contradictions within our nature, but instead, he has been turned into a teenager Pinocchio; a puppet that wants to be a real boy, all the while protesting how much he hates his parents. And to make matters worse he uses acclaimed works of mankind (Lawrence, Byron, Shelley, and others) to proclaim his superiority over mankind while failing to see that in reality he has become the Lucifer, Frankenstein, and Moreau of his own tale; a contradictory and misguided character whose narcissism blinds them to the reality that in their desire to transcend their humanity that they have in actuality become less than human.

Once a puppet, always a puppet.

dk How are math and science perfect? Scientific theories had and will replace each other, perfecting the whole thing as it goes, as will learn more. So theories can not be even put together like relativity and quantum theory. Why math is not perfect is more complicated but one can read about Godel's incompleteness theorems to see why.

So why still talk about perfection? Because Hollywood types love tropes and particularly this tormented artist thing. Maybe because they themselves are not true artists, who knows? 

To talk about perfection in a nightmarish capitalist hell hole like Alien or Blade Runner is even stranger because big companies tend to make products with built-in obsolescence so they could sell more. But selling does not seem to be important for these "sinister" capitalist. Just look and Luv (the best, yawn!), she is in sells calls one moment after that she kills 2 people in the police HQ. That sure is good for business. 

setaverde Will lose the Control of the enhanced specie and a rebellion against the makers begins

You could be right, but that theme has been done to death with even B movies. That is why the franchise needs a fresh approach. For the big screen, I don't see it happening. It could be explored via streaming services though. The IGN shorts for Alien Day were very well received. Better to get bite sized quality chunks than waiting years for a 2 hour disappointment.

It is not a perfect short, and Ignorant Guy's point is valid and BigDave makes great points too. But I think it gives food for thought.

Humans are flawed- how can humanity create perfection? Other than math and science, it seems it cannot. 

It therefore seems unreasonable that humans could create something perfect like themselves (humanity has such a perfect record). Why should we expect perfection? 

Thanks BigDave and Ignorant Guy- the engagement and insights are very interesting!

It's always possible an enhanced specie to enslave the original specie. Maybe on the openings of Prometheus and alien covenant we still see the original specie having Control Over the enhanced specie. Like on Blade Runner, we know that Somewhere in time, the original specie Will lose the Control of the enhanced specie and a rebellion against the makers begins.