David had been on Planet 4 over 3,800 Days

The portion of the novel before the point where the supreme example (the ancient facehugger and ovomorph egg) is discussed, David's time spent on Planet 4 is covered, below.

"Hydrated, nourished, interested, Rosenthal discovered that against all odds, she was bored.

Wondering over to one wall of the downed chamber, she found herself running her fingers over a long row of hashmarks that have been carved into the otherwise immaculate stone. Each hash mark was exactly the same height, width, and depth as the one next to it – all three thousand, eight hundred, and some odd. No human could be so precise, and there was nothing about them to think that they had been made by the Engineers. The marks had to have been inscribed by David."

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 219.

"The line of precise hashmarks inscribed in the corridor seemed endless.

Her fingertips dancing along the wall, Rosenthal‘s hand rose and fell, rose and fell, as she traced the marks, letting them lead her onward. Lost in her own exploratory revere, it did not occur to her that she had left the domed chamber a considerable distance behind."

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 226.

Details from these 3,800 days may work into the best case theory with what happened on Planet 4 before the Covenant crew arrived.  

Great topic Critters5.  The egg had been discussed above so I tried to add a little detail in regards to the days David spent on Planet 4 count and how it was recorded.

Hi Michelle Johnston, welcome.  

"Case TWO.... Alan Dean Foster worked on his Novel of a Earlier Draft and NOT the Shooting Script for Alien Covenant, using this Draft he had ADDED a few things such as the Discovered Xenomorph Egg... ADF felt that evidence from the Draft and Prometheus pushed him towards the Xenomorph being Ancient and so he felt it was right to add the Scene about the Egg that throws David as the Creator in Doubt."

I'm leaning towards case two BigDave.  Great breakdown and the studio most likely left it in the novel to keep that space for debate.

It's tough to get a good shot of the Resurrection burster but it pretty much looks like the OG burster while being noticeably smaller It also had an umbilical cord which may or may not have been in the original? 

^ I agree with this statement

Amazing topic chli, thank you for posting.

Who created the Xenomorph?

The novel tried answer this question by citing an example facehugger and ovomorph found by David, shown for a moment when Captain Oram walked by it.  

Critters5 cited a video that mentions this here. Thank you Critters5.

A filtered screenshot of the moment the Supreme Example is shown to Oram, below.

The way this scene was set up in Alien: Covenant is a little similar to the scene in Prometheus where Milburn's "dunce" label is applied after trying to warm up to the black goo soaked hammerpede.

Why does Oram follow David?

In the novel, David sets Oram's nerves at ease a little by tossing an inert, petrified egg sac opposed to a viable, active one.  In the "first alien" deleted scene from Prometheus, Millburn captures a small, slow moving creature.  This sets Millburn up with the over-confidence seen when greeting the hammerpede with a smile.

Logically, why would Oram follow David anywhere after seeing a floating (but still beautiful) Rosenthal head?  

David appealed to Oram's sense of wonder in regards to science.

Captain Oram was Chief Science Officer of the Covenant mission before the flare incident (Dr. Shaw was also Chief Science Officer of the Prometheus mission).  Oram followed David down the steps because David convinced him he was safe after tossing him an egg sac and Oram instinctively caught it. 

David explained to the Captain that he could have easily thrown a viable egg for Oram to catch with active mutagen but did not.  Oram bought it. 

David Found A Supreme Example of the Facehugger and Ovomorph

"Challenged but still wary, Oram came forward. Gripping his rifle even more tightly and prepared to raise it at the slightest untoward movement from either the object or the synthetic to he leaned over to peer into the now gaping vase-like specimen the interior revealed a motionless creature, all fingerlike appendages and flattened body, with a muscular tail coiled beneath it as if it was ready to spring outward.

It did not move.

It was dead, as dead in preserved as David had promised. As dead as the egg sac the synthetic had tossed to him. Oram stepped back from the specimen, which seemed pregnant with hideous potential.

The synthetic's reaction was notably different. "Quite magnificent don’t you think?"

Quite something, that’s for sure, Oram muttered. He continued to gaze at the egg thing and its contents. As patiently lifeless as it was, it still manage to send a quiver of fear through here.

"Oh captain." David shake his head sadly. "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris."

"Would that I could create something so perfect in its function, he added. I try, but I don’t have thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. I only have my parable programming on which to draw. That, and 10 years of earnest effort on my own behalf. I have learned only a little, yet a soldier on, hoping all ways to achieve something like this, always striving to do better, to improve. That’s what the engineers did, I suppose.That is what someone playing God should do."

Alien: Covenant novelization page 243.

Ash admires its purity, and comments that its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.

From a certain viewpoint, the influenza virus could be regarded as verging on perfection. It too is a survivor, lasting for millions of years. Your body slaughters trillions of the little buggers, but the important thing is that their genome persists.

Likewise with the Xenomorph.

Well originally the chestburster in ALIEN had limbs but Scott had them removed. Hence why it look like it has fins because those where the remains of its shoulders while Alien Resurrection's queenburster was inconsistent with ALIEN 3's Queenburster. The Alien Resurrection Queenburster resembled a traditional chestburster somewhat while the ALIEN 3 Queenburster resembled a miniature Queen.

sorry i couldn't find a better image of the Resurrection Queenburster

Certainly there is no such thing as Perfection....per say!

You could have the most Perfect Holiday but there is always something else that could have made it more Perfect, you could have the Most Perfect Wedding Day but something else could have made it more Perfect (example a Recently Passed Relative or Friend could have made it).

And so with the Xenomorph it could always Benefit from Extra Traits that would make it more Perfect but your always going to have Flaws.....  i think the Perfect Term for the Xenomorph could be that the Organism can ADAPT to its Environment.

Who knows how more Perfect we would have seen Ridley Scott have explored the Organism... he had gone on about Evolving the Beast, Exploring Different Procreation and he had mentioned the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant would have REGENERATED.

So a Organism that Adapts to Environment, that can Regenerate and has Multiple Methods of Procreation would make the Xenomorph more PERFECT... but then there would always be room for Improvement and so NOT quite Perfection.

I think the Xenomorph is a Special Case/Organism that actually Evolves while Gestating to Adapt to its Environment.  So while some Organisms could Re-Evolve some Traits it predecessors had if they Benefit its Changing Environment with all EVOLUTION these things take  a LONG time to Evolve.

The Xenomorph seems to be able to Adapt/Evolve while Gestating and so has a Rapid Evolution and who knows if when they are ADULTS they cant still Adapt Further.

The Differences in Chest Buster could be from Different Stock as Certainly its implied the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant has some way to Evolve, but also throughout the Franchise the Chest Busters have also varied a little too.

Ignoring AVP and only using the Movies to consider this Next Point..

ALIENS we see the Chest Buster has Limbs and not Fins... in ALIEN it has Fins, and in Alien Resurrection it is hard to make out but more likely has Fins (apart from Queen), in ALIEN 3 the Chest Buster is from a Dog/Cow and has Limbs.  And so does Orams in Alien Covenant

LIMBS: Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Covenant.

FINS: Alien and Alien Resurrection?

Gestate/Birth on a Habitable World:  Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Covenant.

Gestate/Birth on a Space Ship in Space: Alien and Alien Resurrection?

But maybe thats a Coincidence... we never saw the LOPE Chest Buster if we had and it had FINS then we could maybe make a Connection.

I cant see the Reason why Gestating/Birth on a Ship or on a Habitable World (Natural or Terra-formed) would determine if they have Limbs or Not However....

So we could all try and work out what the differences are and WHY but they could all just be Creative Aesthetic that the Production has chosen.

The thing that could make SENSE for them having the Formed Limbs on a Open World compared to the Confines of a Ship with Fins could be that in the Confines of a Ship, the Snake-like Chest Buster is Beneficial for the Organisms to Escape and Hide... because no matter how FAST you are, when your in the Confines of a Ship eventually you could get Caught!

I enjoyed all the shorts although they varied in quality- but that is OK considering time and budget. I enjoyed all of them combined more than Covenant or Prometheus tbh. The shorts reminded me of what the Alien franchise originally was about- Sci Fi Horror- stuff that was suspenseful or could really scare with different twists. I can agree on much of what you wrote but I would rate the episodes higher. The characters in all episodes alone were way better than the last two Scott movies. The franchise needs to get back to basics like these episodes demonstrated.

I enjoyed all the shorts although the varied in quality- but that is OK considering time and budget. I enjoyed all of them combined more than Covenant or Prometheus tbh. The shorts reminded me of what the Alien franchise originally was about- Sci Fi Horror- stuff that was suspenseful or could really scare with different twists. I can agree on much of what you wrote but I would rate the episodes higher. The characters in all episodes alone were way better than the last two Scott movies. The franchise needs to get back to basics like these episodes demonstrated.

At any rate, both chest bursters from the OP came from humans but were different. So it seems the face huggers must have been from different genetic stock? The Runner and Deacon were pretty much fully formed but smaller when they burst. Same can be said for the back burster- not really sure about the throat burster though.(evolve/devolve- either way it is a change).

I would rather have a complete reboot to AVP that is more ALIENy and PREDATORy, I hate the first AVP with a passion.

I am among the few who like the first AVP and wouldn't mind seeing a good follow up. I would not want to see it in the proper Alienverse though.

I forgot I did this thread

To everyone that don't want hybrids, such as the dog alien. The xenomorph's DNA reflex is a stable of the xenomorph's biology since the original ALIEN unless you mean an unnatural hybrids like the ones in resurrection?

What I don't in the future ALIEN movies is to ever acknowledge that crapfest that was AVP (2004), that's all I don't want.

If James Cameron is working on an Aliens prequel then it could be a film adaptation of Alien: River of Pain or Alien: Out of the Shadows or both.  

Ellen Ripley Sees a Buried City and a Crashed Alien Ship

The novels are top notch but one exciting thing about Ellen Ripley in Alien: Out of the Shadows is this. below.

“‘It’s a ship,’ he said.
‘What?’ Ripley gasped. She hadn’t even considered that possibility. Buried almost a mile beneath the planet’s surface, surely this couldn’t be anything but a building, a temple of some sort, or some other structure whose purpose was more obscure.'”

Alien: Out of the Shadows, page 167.

“The entire left half of the exposed surface might have been a wing, curving down in a graceful parabola, projections here and there seemingly swept back for streamlining.”

Alien: Out of the Shadows, page 168.

A lot of this sounds familiar and could be a tie-in to Alien: Covenant but this could also signal an entire new direction for the films.

I believe it has to do with each story dk.  Great topic.

Religion was a big part of the storyline in Prometheus and I thought it had a great fit not only with Dr. Shaw but also with Dr. Holloway and Peter Weyland's beliefs.

Peter Weyland quotes above Friedrich Nietzsche with "I am a law only for my kind, I am no law for all."  It seems, Peter Weyland is chanting that he is above religion.

Dr. Holloway said in the Prometheus transmission interview that he wanted to "crush all man-made religions" and made clear his contempt for Dr. Shaw's beliefs.  

I thought all of this fit well with the concept of the Engineers and how they "fit" with what humanity has seen and what beliefs are held by the masses.  The Alien: The Cold Forge and Alien: Echo novels did not reference religion where I remember and those novels were spectacular.

Too bad he ruined his career with that political stunt

I mean its comical seeing it now but when I was a little kid, it terrified me.

I got what your trying to say but the terminology was what was bothering me. Evolution is evolution no matter if its a re-evolve trait or not, its still just called evolution.

This is super late lol but that is definitely Jussie Smollett in the shower scene. This was his first big motion picture scene. 

Ha Ha... Space Balls ;)

Seems that the Intention was for the Chest Buster to have at least Arms....

So to carry that on in Context to the OP.

Then it depends HOW they reveal the Origin of the Xenomorph,  because if we ASSUME as indicated that David's Chest Buster from Oram is a Predecessor to the 1979 Xenomorph than we have to assume the loss of Limbs in Chest Buster Stage is due to some Survival Benefit.

But there are TWO things to consider in Context to the Chest Buster...

1) This is purely Sci-Fi....

2) We are talking about a Engineered Creation.

So when we are talking about Genetic Manipulation to the Advanced Level Implied within the Franchise then Genetically you could DEVOLVE a Organism.

As far as Advanced Genetic Engineering goes... but NOT as far as Natural Evolution.

When i was talking about DEVOLUTION i was referring to that Technically this is considered Impossible, but that SOME Organisms can Revert to Previous Traits of their Ancestors that they had lost over time, this happens if these Traits are suited to Environmental Changes and Survival and in these cases its NOT a case of Devolution but more of a Re-Evolution.

Technically when this happens they could be considered a NEW Species because while they could gain some LOST Traits, they would also keep some of the Previously Gained Traits from Evolution.

So i should have detailed more as when i put "Organism can Revert back to a Prior Stage of Evolution"

I meant as i mentioned earlier in that post that SOME TRAITS can be regained, and i NEVER implied that a Organism would 100% go back to a previous Stage.

Even if a Organism regained a Number of Traits Lost in Evolution, it would maintain a Number of Traits it gained from the Process of Previous Evolution.. so i do apologize i should have elaborated a bit more.

So my comment "

"Lifeforms don't devolve, they evolve"

Typically this is kind of true"

I meant as in its True as far as Lifeforms Evolve and dont Devolve, but then to add that a Organism could gain Previous Traits Losts....  but as i further added this is NOT any kind of Devolution however.

so the Typically Kind of True was the Incorrect use of Words by me....   I should have put (as i meant) this is Technically True but some Exceptions Organisms can revert to previously Lost Traits but this would not be Devolution... 

Because when this happens its so these Traits of of Benefit and anything that is Changed for a Improvement/Benefit is a Evolution.

@Leto

I agree. A lot of people think of evolution like its pokemon or digimon but the fact of the matter is that Evolution never goes backwards. There is no such thing "De-evolving" because when an organism regain "primitive traits" its still a different organism than its ancestors and if you could bring said organism back into the past with its ancestor that resembles it, biologically the two creatures are completely different organisms due to the latter's evolution history.

Example: If you take a Human from the 21st Century and send him or her back to the Pleistocene where the first anatomically modern humans evolved. Biologically current modern human had went through several mutations (ex, Europeans gaining the lactose tolerance gene), survived several epidemics and non-african Homo sapiens sapiens absorbing the neanderthal into their genome while african Homo sapiens sapiens continued to evolve in their own way after the Pleistocene.

hox

This is not an evolution. This is ontogenesis and Recapitulation theory.

@hox

Oh yeah forgot embryo had gills

@Leto That's not correct. Evolution often involves switching off genes that no longer serve a useful purpose. For example, when you, I and all other modern humans were floating inside a uterus in the first weeks of life, we had gills in our necks, a legacy from our aquatic past. We are stuffed full of genes that could be re-purposed as nature/evolution sees fit.

Typically this is kind of true.... Organisms can go back to a Previous Stage of Evolution if the Environmental Factors the Organism is in Favor some of the Previous Traits.

No. Evolution does not come back.

For Example if a Organism/Mammal had Thick Fur Coat that it Evolved into having a Small Smooth Coat as the Environment/Climate had become Much Warmer... should the Environment/Climate once again become and stay much Cooler or the Organism Migrates to a Much Cooler Environment then over the Course of Evolution the Organism could go back to its Thick Fur Coat.

It's a delusion. If the "organism" loses wool and then acquires it again - it will be another "organism". Maybe the similar, but not the same.

And further - "organism" (body) can't evolve. Only species.

Although I said ALIEN, my first technical chestbursting experience was SPACEBALLS.

@Big Dave

Yeah but evolution technically doesn't have stages, it might evolve to look similar to its ancestor but its still not a 1:1 because it would have traits its ancestor lacked (such as additional vestigial organs)

I mean every time a terrestrial vertebrate evolves to become aquatic they can't re-evolve gills, they retain the lung adaptation every-time.

Also regarding to the chestburster, wasn't the original supposed to have front limbs but Ridley Scott decided to snip them off?

Welcome back S.M

True, but when Wren unsuprisngly betrays them it becomes even more dangerous to keep Purvis alive. Call may or may not have surgical programing, but the remainder of the crew of the Betty (Johner and Vries) as well as Distephano and Ripley 8 likely don't have surgical training. Call and the rest should know it's a terrible idea keeping Purvis alive after a certain point. 

Even if frozen you run the risk of bringing him to a surgen who might keep the specimen alive.

To me, Covenant chestburster is still a prototype. It grew much more rapidly than any others seen before which looks to have started during gestation.

It'd be Alien for me. Don't know how young I was but it terrified and captivated me as a child.

"ok androids, leave the kissing and flute playing to the humans..."

I think we need to look at John Logan for this... bare in mind his draft had David and Dr Shaw having Sexual Relations... until they arrive at Paradise and then David just Breaks her Neck!

So a lot of this Personality is something Logan added that i feel is Flawed/Wrong.

The "You Blow and I will do the Fingering" is taken by some as a Innuendo it may be intended as that... 

I think that Dialog should not have been needed...

The rest of the FLUTE scene was to show that while Walter Cant Create a Tune on his own... when Taught he Finally could which points to KNOWLEDGE and Knowledge is a Powerful Tool.  Which carries on with David trying to show that Walter can Exceed beyond the Limitations Expected of him.

Ignoring the "You Blow and I will do the Fingering" Dialog.

The KISS could be seen as a JUDAS Kiss before David Stabs Walter in the Back.... Metaphorically Speaking

Another thing to Consider when looking at this RECENT TOPIC is part of one of my Replies...

"could the Natural Environment of where the Chest Buster is Gestated have a effect on the TYPE of Chest Buster?"

I noticed that the ALIENS Chest Buster has like Arms and Hands and Legs and Feet and NOT the Pectoral Fins of the one from ALIEN

If we are talking about what we each had seen FIRST?

Then it was ALIEN Chest Buster 1979 for me....

If we are talking Chronologically in Terms of ALIEN Franchise Time-Line as far as WHAT we had been shown.

Then the DEACON would be the First to be shown... HOWEVER it is Highly Likely the Engineers had been Chest Busted prior to 2093, and who knows which was the First Similar Organism that had BUSTED out of a Engineer or Human from the Ancient Past and HOW LONG ago this First Incident had occurred?

Regarding the Chest Busters...

This is a Interesting One...  IF we assume the 1979 ALIEN Organism is a Evolution then the Aesthetic Differences must play a Important Role to the Organisms Survival.

So in this Context we have to Assume the 1979 Chest Buster offers the Xenomorph Greater Survival Rate, we get the Picture a Chest Buster is a Organism Stage of the Cycle where it is at its most Vulnerable.  So the Serpent Chest Buster maybe has Speed on its side to Escape from Threats.

Something to Consider is that David has Drawings of the Previous 1979 Chest Buster, these are likely just Art Work from the Concept Artist that they thought would be COOL to add.

However such Drawings to help some to argue that the Xenomorph of Davids is NOT the Original Ancient One.

Could it be this is the AIM of David the Perfection he Foresees? 

It is just a Oversight IMO....

or we could maybe look at it as a Previous Version that David First Created, before he Evolved it to the one in ALIEN COVENANT.... but after what transpires between ALIEN COVENANT and ALIEN the Evolved ones are gone but the Previous Versions by David get onto the Derelict?

could the Natural Environment of where the Chest Buster is Gestated have a effect on the TYPE of Chest Buster?

EDIT:

I noticed that the ALIENS Chest Buster has like Arms and Hands and Legs and Feet and NOT the Pectoral Fins of the one from ALIEN

Alien Resurrection its not clear to determine if this Chest Buster has Arms or Fins or Neither, but it seems they could have Fins.... The Queen however has Arms.. just as in ALIEN 3 also.

"Lifeforms don't devolve, they evolve"

Typically this is kind of true.... Organisms can go back to a Previous Stage of Evolution if the Environmental Factors the Organism is in Favor some of the Previous Traits.

So it Technically would be to EVOLVE back to a prior Stage if this Stage is more suitable for the Organisms Current Benefit.

For Example if a Organism/Mammal had Thick Fur Coat that it Evolved into having a Small Smooth Coat as the Environment/Climate had become Much Warmer... should the Environment/Climate once again become and stay much Cooler or the Organism Migrates to a Much Cooler Environment then over the Course of Evolution the Organism could go back to its Thick Fur Coat.

So its not quite Devolution but a Organism can Revert back to a Prior Stage of Evolution if the Current Environment is more suited to that Previous Evolutionary Stage as far as Survivability