Comments (Page 295)

BigDave

...Written Story and None Original Human Characters could work if they get done correct. Some people may never be able to connect with what is not Born of Flesh and Blood by Natural Human Procreation...

this has been done many times already I suppose. Just recall the Matrix. Did it kill your interest when you learned that Neo was not conceived the natural way in Xeon(I am having a laugh here. It was supposed to be Zion, but here the word "xeno" and its alteration xeon is more relevant)

As far as being able to feel for alternate version of humans, sure there is this thing called empathy we are supposed to have. For instance how long it took for people to get behind and support hobbits? And then did some people consider hobbits(some) more worthy than human(some) characters? Ie whom you liked more, Pippen/Mary vs Denethor?

So I would argue that emotional support could go either way, wrt to organic humans vs engineered ones(case in point BR, BR2049) - it all depends on the story and how characters are developed. There are movies where you feel more towards anti-heroes, because of the way they were portrayed.

Back to Prometheus and David. Remind yourselves how admirably David looked upon Shaw and he was letting her get away with her totally idiotic belief portrayed in the movie. I mean the scene where she asked back for her cross, after witnessing her supposed to be gods/engineers shown to be totally unworthy and violent creatures. Just so that it doesn't get lost, what happened is this : she believed in divine conception of humans by gods, who btw left an invitation. She was probably thinking they knew about heaven and hell and she probably would grant you that they, engineer-gods pooped with candy. Then, finally, when she meets her makers - all that is shattered. Her belief is shattered or at least shown to be quite a naive set of unfounded of beliefs. But Shaw's character with the stages of character building events she experienced( she lost her mother, father, Charlie ) took her so far. It was portrayed that she would just persevere and get tougher after being shown that her gods are barbarians meaning death(indiscriminate) for no good reason(the fellow woke up 2000 years later, and was still going to carry out his plan, not bothering about what happened to those living on earth).

So Shaw was shaken to her core, she lost everything. Even her belief is shown to be a joke. Yet, after a short despair, with the helping hand(David) she was willing to go on the exploration mission further, seek the questions she had. (She knows who created humans, but who created them, those engineers?). This is quite robotic, right? She didn't ask to go back to Earth to the "lovely" humans, instead she wanted to pursue the thrill of exploration/curiosity. A characteristic trait of David. (so is she a robot then? Waaaa, Shaw is a robot...as many where objecting about David). She still demanded to have her cross. At this point, David was amused, but let her have it. "Hmmm" he thought - "there is something in humans that I might not have, some irrationality, which seemingly not only doesn't make them weaker but gives them incredible strength. That is, this irrationality, illusion not only doesn't hurt them but seemingly allows them to carry on". Which is total BS of course, as delusions, unfounded ones at that are only source of frustration in future. But if you can make good use of it, (perhaps with some short despair which your delusion might entail) then go ahead and use it. That is what David let Shaw have, when he told her where her cross were. He could easily told her he got rid of it because he didn't see any value in it, but he didn't lie. Which is interesting because, if you now ask a question - will David grant his children ( or his embryos) freedom(which was never offered to him! Basically humans enslaved a god! Luckily Weyland actually granted him his freedom and willed Weyland corp to him - his access code was valid on Covenant ship. Recall "welcome back David" from MURTHUR) - the kind of freedom that he allowed Shaw, even if it is a freedom to believe delusions? The answer was yes once. He calculated once the answer to be YES. Why not the second time(or Nths time). So it leaves us in a pickle - what kind of world will he create. And incidentally what kind of role will Daniels play. What if he creates a world based on peace and gives those children all the beauty of knowledge he has to them. Would he not create the second era of renaissance? Will Daniels oppose such doctrine of David's and will she want to bring context of the past and wage ware on David in this case? Will she not be perceived to be evil witch from the past by those children of David's? Sadly we probably won't get to see those questions answered.

"I look at the Engineers as a way to tell the human story, as a part of it"

I agree i think the Engineers Plot could have potentially ran very deep, and interesting and if its not ALIEN enough then you can simply introduce another Run on the Ladder, and explore something different that is above the Engineers.

Prometheus opened up the Franchise Universe... Alien Covenant kind of closed it up a little.

Are these Engineers only involved around Earths Past, and the Zeta 2 System?  Ridley Scotts comments seem to indicate not, and their Ships Navigation Systems show OTHER Galaxies... why have Maps/Charts to other Galaxies if they cant Travel there?   LV-223/426 and likely Planet 4 are all within 50LY of Earth... LV-223/426 Certainly within 40LY but the nearest Galaxy to our own is like 64 Thousand Times Further than LV-426

And the Engineers had maps to a good number of Galaxies so you look at the amount of SPACE that is... so we can ask WHERE Else are these Engineers, WHAT Else have they created and WHERE and WHO Created THEM?

What Conflicts have they been involved with in the Universe, are all the Engineers on the Same Page? or even if in the Past have their been different Interests and Agendas... NOT all Humans even now, never-mind in History have NEVER been on the same page.. otherwise there would been NO Wars or Conflicts.

By having the Engineers Home-world on our Door Step it has been a mistake, it closes everything in too much... by having David create the Xenomorph it makes it less ALIEN but in going for that Route they had little choice in making the Engineers Reside on our Door Step. Which diminishes the Potential Plot that Prometheus opened up.

"I know, you don't like this idea, but i think that prequels must go far away from Derelict"

On the Contrary ;)

Every part of you reply Leto i can Totally Agree with, my view on the matter is what RS may be trying to do with David and Creation and Engineers is Interesting.... to take what i ponder in the OT about what if he tries to Evolve and Enhance the Human Embryos and then have them believe David is their God/Creator is very interesting.

The Problem is that with these PLOTS we also have the Fact the Prometheus Sequel is now a ALIEN Prequel.. which means it is likely that it will follow a Path that Leads to ALIEN and the Space Jockey and that Cargo... and all they are doing in that context is Joining the Dots.

This comes from simply the U-Turn to give us a ALIEN Literal set of Prequels and the Xenomorph Origin, instead of having David create something a bit different but by looking HOW he created it, would give us clues to HOW maybe the Original Xenomorph was Created.

I would rather them NOT go the Prequel Route... for pretty much every reason you stated... it has to be Forced now within the Time Restraints... 17+ years until ALIEN and by setting up a Prequel to connect to ALIEN, then a Sequel to that which may cover a whole load of other things and keep the Xenomorph Minimal or not have any... that then has to lead to a FINAL Movie where the Xenomorph has to be Forced back... i feel is just a MISTAKE!

I would rather had taken the PLOT and had it that David had traveled to the Engineer Home-world that is NO-WHERE near our side of the Galaxy, like have it say 15'000 light years away or at least so FAR that its set in Reaches of Space that Mankind has not even touched at the time of ALIENS

It could have taken David NOT too long to arrive at PARADISE they could even have By-Passed what happened for Many Years after he arrived and so even have the Plot the Same as Alien Covenant... ONLY that Paradise is VERY FAR away...  David arrives here way before ALIEN

But then show us the incoming Humans are from the more Distant Future after ALIENS... why maybe even AFTER or not to far prior to the events of Alien Resurrection, were the COVENANT are escaping the HELL HOLE that Earth has become... It should be shown the Covenant has left Earth around the 2200-2300 mark and that it is more Advanced as far as Speeds of Travel than the Ships in ALIEN and maybe ALIENS and then we have the Covenant Mission take a Much Much longer time.

They arrive Thousands of Light Years away from Earth and suffer the Neutrino Burst and then discover Dr Shaws signal which would seem EVEN MORE out of Place so far away.... they then go off to the Location this is coming from and Discover a World more Suitable (so it seems) than their Destination they are part of the way towards.

Most Elements of Alien Covenant could be carried over, just have the Xenomorphs David creates be something a bit more different, or indicate by David that the Engineers had made this Black Goo from or to create something they used as a Bio-Weapon and that it was Far from Perfect.. but David has Perfected it.

This means David does-not create the Original Xenomorph, and so the Derelict remains a Potential Ancient Mystery.  It leaves a Sequel open to explore things that the Alien Covenant Sequel may have or my OT and NOT have to have it Forcefully connected to ALIEN

It allows for a long time to pass for David to be building his World before the Engineers Turn up... and so not a Small Time Period to Force stuff into..

It allows for a Aftermath WAR OF THE WORLDS where the Fall-Out could bring our Engineers to our TURF and have this happen after the events of Alien Resurrection and allow the Franchise to continue by introducing the Engineers and other Horrors and NOT worry about Conflicting with the Original Franchise.

But ALAS we have what we have, mainly because in order to Shoe-Horn in the Plot of David being the Creator (Xenomorph), within a Period of 27 years from Prometheus to Alien... then the events had to be set more CLOSER to HOME.

A Mistake.... but even if they went for a different take like i explain here.... at some point and for some Fans they would STILL want the Xenomorph Origins and Space Jockey Event Explained or Shown.

"Well, what can I say? I am glad I saw it. And it is a pity many do not see this. Because we won't see another movie - of what kind of world he would create with pristine human embryos"

@BioDegradable

I enjoyed your post, indeed these are exactly the things i took from David by the post were discussing about the Evolution of Mankind and how we could Engineer our Bodies, be Immune to Diseases and maybe slow down the Decay of our Organs Life-spans but this will have some kind of Limitation.  Unless you can Engineer a Genome/Body to be able to Self Repair and Regenerate.   Were as a Synthetic Body for the most part would not be subject to limitations that Organic Mater has. (apart from Regenerative Organic Mater) and so when David sees the Engineers are Organic and Mortal After all, then indeed he would realize its only their Knowledge and Technology that sets them apart.  (Strength too especially with LV-223 Engineers)  what we see from Alien Covenant and the Advent is that David sees these Mortal Beings may have realized the limitations of their Psychical Bodies and maybe attempted to Improve themselves and had Tools, Knowledge and Technology that these beings could not appreciate or control maybe as much as David could, and when they choose to Abandon some of their Ways... it seems David feels they are NOT Worthy of the Technology and Knowledge they had.  A Question is were the Engineers Taught/Handed this Knowledge/Technology or had that Stolen or Acquired it?  I think this is one of the Interesting Questions to ponder.

I do think we can see that David may feel he is more Worthy of this Knowledge and Technology and it would be interesting to see to what END he could use it.   I certainly think it would be interesting to see David try and Evolve/Engineer more than just his Xenomorph.

And i totally agree with how you noticed things like how David Reacted to the Neomorph and so he is not just Hostile to all Life-Forms he just seems to have a Contempt and Dislike for Humanity and the Engineers. I would say he even has some element of Respect for what the Engineers were and could have been, but had LOST that respect in regards to maybe how they had changed their ways.  And so i certainly agree with Davids Emotions and how his interactions with others has shaped him.  He certainly not just a Robot intent on Killing like some kind of Terminator T-800

"OK but if that is the case they need to explain what they mean by AI otherwise it will be thought of as being a robot movie."

I agree maybe it would need to be made more clear in the Next Movie, rather than trying to interpret Ridley Scotts comments. I think it depends how each person can interpret what is being shown.  It could do with a little less ambiguity.

I think RS is trying to show us Creation and to ask what determines Creation, what makes a Life-Form. And what is AI, and to show that AI does not mean a Advanced Computer,   if they go the route of David Genetically Evolving the Human Embryos into Super Humans then they would in effect be seen as a AI because they are a Intelligence that has been Artificially Created/Engineered.   But maybe not everyone would see it as so...  Maybe a way to bring it more HOME would be if David could Engineer the Perfect Superior Humanoid Organic Body and then UPLOAD his Soul into it.... would he still be seen as a AI then? 

Ridley Scott seems to be asking Questions and trying to Blur the Lines between what constitutes a Creation, a AI, God, a Soul and Immortality.   In essence we are Machines, Biological Machines, but we are Grown Genetically and we can Procreate.  Once a AI like David can have Emotions and Feelings like a Human then how much different is he apart from not being ORGANIC and Naturally Created.  Another thing RS likes to touch on is and was aiming for is to Question what is a SOUL?

Are we the Creation by a Divine Magical Being and we are granted this Spiritual Soul that will Live on in another Pane of Existence when we DIE if so then what is this Existence... does it have NO Physical Form... are we just Energy with our Memories and Emotions?

Or are we the Random Product of Evolution and when we DIE we are just Food for Worms and there is NOTHING.  We dont know how far down such a Rabbit Hole that RS was taking us, it seems he is trying to tread the line between Both and its one of the Great Mysteries.

Then we look at AI in the same context.... If a Soul constitutes Memories and Emotions that shape the kind of Person they become... then WHO knows what becomes of us and this Soul.... but with a AI who has such Memories and Emotions that can be Stored in a AI Program and Computer, and thus this SOUL can be uploaded then in effect the AI has a Eternal Soul so to speak.

The Apex of Human Evolution could be Artificial when ONE day we can Upload our Souls into a AI, into some other Form of Energy/Storage and have it Transferred to a NEW Body or even some day not even needed a Physical Body at all.

But i agree that these ideas are steering away from what MOST would expect from a ALIEN Movie which most would consider to be about Xenomorphs, but i feel the Xenomorph is more cooked than the AI aspect.  I think they need to use the AI and Xenomorph as not the Main Focus but allow them to be used to draw some connection and context to Creation and Humans and Engineers and other layers of Creation.   But who knows if this potentially cant be explored by the NEXT Layer especially if this shows David goes on to Create/Attempt to a Perfect Organic Humanoid.

One VERY Valid Point you raise often Thoughts_Dreams is Human Characters and IF we explore a route like in OT, then its a case of could Fans Connect to a New Version of Humans that are Engineered or would they be seen only as Robots?

I feel any Well-Written Story and None Original Human Characters could work if they get done correct. Some people may never be able to connect with what is not Born of Flesh and Blood by Natural Human Procreation... But certainly the more Human any New Creations or other Races that are introduced then the more chance we could connect to them.

But you would have to introduce Legitimate Human Characters and the Miss-Treatment of the None Natural Human Characters by Humans could lead us to connect and sympathies with the None-Natural Original Humanoids.

BigDave

I know, you don't like this idea, but i think that prequels must go far away from Derelict, LV-426 and connection with Alien. It must be stand alone story without connection with Alien 1979.

And that's why.

I think time-line has very little time for Alien. Suppose that in 2110 David arrived to Origae-6. 1-2 years his will be develop this place for his need. We have 2112. Then tests, experiments with humans and, maybe xenomorphs. Also 1-2 years. We have 2114. Then David created his world with first generation humans (fast-growning). This is a VERY forcing events. We have... 2119. And then David live as GOD for his humans... How many? Three years! Only three years! Before 2122. There is no scale, no place, and no time to feel the world of David. David's kingdom must develop over hundreds years. Even tens years is very small! But we have only 3 years (with forcing events, don't forget). 2122 is the last time when Engineers can arrive. And then - movie events. Turns out that Derelict crash literally - yesterday! And the next day arrived Nostromo.

Biodegradable:

I understand what you mean when you say that their existence is not supported by any scientific support. At the same time this is science-fiction so everything does not have to be 100% accurate although a lot of it should.

“They are totally thought out beings.”

Yeah they are a kind of what if kind of thing but that is what I like about them (among other things). To me I like the idea of what would happen if were were manufactured by non-human beings and they would get mad at the way mankind is going now. Story-wise it is interesting but not very scientifically accurate but then the SJ wasn’t either and I have not seen many complain about the SJ per se.

“I wonder if you ever considered that?”

I have always looked at the Engineers as pure fiction, at least until we get any data that suggests that those life-forms live for real.

"You see, at least for me, a movie is interesting when it explores and poses interesting questions which are grounded somewhat in reality."

Sure, that is why I like the first three movies because there you can see ideas about what might happen when humans get together to survive a common threat.

You can also try to forget the Engineers and just think about how do humans act today and if we were created by a life-form why would they like to get rid of us. The interesting thing is not the life-form but the reasons might be connected to how we act today, that is what I find interesting.

"You see, if you insist on and on about engineers you might as well be better off just watching Pirates of Caribean, which is total trash."

I look at the Engineers as a way to tell the human story, as a part of it. I do not want them to be the total story so to speak and yeah I am not a huge fan of Pirates of the Carribean.

I do not think that Alien was junk, I like that thing about what happens when people are faced with threats that they are not prepared for. I like to explore the idea of a corporations that puts profits first even if that means killing the employees (something that is kind of rooted in reality). Looking at it you could say that the company was also a threat combined with the creature.

"And the original movie didn't need a follow up. I would go as far and say the beast was cooked after the original movie. Everything else was unnecessary."

Not sure about that, I like Aliens and Alien 3 also but then things changed for the worse.

"I believe that is why he created Prometheus, which was not about A L I E N and not about the beast - he wanted to explore new stuff, because all those aliens where cooked - and they are!"

There are things that I like about Prometheus, I liked David and Janek. The Engineers were interesting, and the landscapes and ships looked good but it lacked when it came to characters.

Thoughts_Dreams, consider this alternative view:

Fascination about engineers is frankly a road to nowhere, as their origin is not underpinned by any contemporary (far-fetched) scientific idea. They are totally thought out beings. A fantasy of a eight year old. Which is completely unlike to a story about human created sentient beings, genetically engineered species and all else in this vein. That is, what if engineers is a dead-end cul-de-sac. Pure imagination and poor one at that. I wonder if you ever considered that?

In other words, if you insist on a story about them - Ridley could storyboard a ... marvel style comic book for you and call it engineer movie for those willing to pay.

You see, at least for me, a movie is interesting when it explores and poses interesting questions which are grounded somewhat in reality. In other words, to be honest, I am not interested in sci-fi movie say about a spider man. That would be a total BS. A terminator is much more realistic thriller. You see, if you insist on and on about engineers you might as well be better off just watching Pirates of Caribean, which is total trash.

^IMO.

A L I E N was also complete junk from a certain point of view, but at the time it was a highly topical movie executed brilliantly. It was produced at the time where space travel was all the rage. Exploring other planets was a thing. And here Ridley produced gripping thriller with a horrifying beast. And it was executed brilliantly. And the original movie didn't need a follow up. I would go as far and say the beast was cooked after the original movie. Everything else was unnecessary. But since it was making money for movie studios Ridley didn't oppose it and let them have other movies. I believe that is why he created Prometheus, which was not about A L I E N and not about the beast - he wanted to explore new stuff, because all those aliens where cooked - and they are!

@Leto

Indeed we saw this with Prometheus, the Question remains as far as HOW would those Planet 4 Engineers had taken to David and Dr Shaw?

Prometheus and especially the deleted scenes, seemed to show the Engineer was intrigued with many things, he seemed to take Pity on David and he was upset with Weyland because his Actions show what the Engineers view most of Mankind have become... and they cant be allowed to continue.....  The Theatrical Release did try and paint those Engineers as just being Pissed Off Muscle Bound Freaks.

But certainly they could be very upset at Discovering what has happened, they could few David and is Creation as a Insult, they could even be a little Jealous the Question comes down to what they would do... Destroy David and his Creation... it could make Sense..

But in light of this Scenario we have to ask where the Xenomorph Stands?   Engineers being Angry because David and the Xenomorph are knock offs of their Humans and Xenomorphs could be wishful thinking!

We cant rule that out..... but maybe they would take the Stance that David did with Planet 4 and USE the Engineers Bio-Weapon against them... and then Perfect Something from it.  A Large Theme is HUBRIS and IF those Engineers had decided to not play God and Create Humans then maybe they would need to try and Create a Bio-Weapon to Destroy us. 

Maybe those Planet 4 Engineers turned their back on all of this, but look where that left them..... those who Return will likely look on the ways of those beings as FLAWED and its back to what those LV-223 Engineers were doing.

Which must come at the Cost to them (Space Jockey). i think most can only HOPE the Space Jockey is a Engineer or something related... and then maybe its likely if this is the case that the Space Jockey had attempted to USE or Obtain the Xenomorph.   I think a Reveal the Xenomorph Eggs are a Space Jockey Ancient Weapon and/or the Derelict has been on LV-426 for a VERY long time... is Wishful Thinking now...

In Hindsight they should not have gone the Curve-ball Route of Alien Covenant.  But it seems RS has plans to expand on other stuff and not the Xenomorph.

This Topic i tried to Ponder, what could be meant by a Sequel that would not be about the Xenomorph, one that would be about AI and what kind of a WORLD that David would create...   And then Ponder is the Limbo Status of the Sequel, and Raised by Wolves... Ridleys attempts to show the ideas he had, because he Fears HIS ideas for a Sequel will NEVER happen?

I am not against something new and I think that the Engineers might be the way to go but they must be done in a way that is interesting. Hopefully they will focus more on the Engineers than David, I think that David is cooked. Actually it might be interesting to see how they react when they see what David did on Planet 4.

"what kind of a World would David build?"

We have already had two movies about David, time to move on. Keep him in the background at least.

“Creation becomes Sentient and has Freewill and Knowledge it could be bad new for their Creator."

Fine but keep in in another franchise

“Some interpret AI as only being a Robot, when Artificial Intelligence is anything that is not Natural or that has Evolved by Artificial Intervention.”

Yeah but since he is mostly interested in David that might be how the movie ends up.

“… so this opens the Door for anything that is Engineered from its Natural State could be considered AI.”

OK but if that is the case they need to explain what they mean by AI otherwise it will be thought of as being a robot movie.

The themes knowledge and free will are not bad in themselves it is just that they focus too much on David, and he is a sadistic robot with almost no counterpart (since the human characters lack in how they are written) so it becomes a robot-movie no matter if that is what Scott intended or not.

“if you look at how we are Today, we would be looked down on as Shameful by many Ancient Cultures...”

We have better technology but we still lack spiritually.

“.... what could be his plans for the Colony?”

Probably act as a dictator where they are supposed to obey his orders. I judge from how I saw him in Alien Covenant by the way.

“and so are some ideas from his Alien Covenant Sequel being carried over to Raised by Wolves?”

That could be the case but I am not interested in that because he goes on about his AI and androids kind of thing. The androids get the most attention and I do not like that.

“we could incorporate traits...”

OK but that also asks the question what we want to achieve right? Then who is supposed to decide about it? Should it be the majority or a minority? What to do if it goes wrong (evolutionary failure)  to put it? Who would be to blame? As you can see there is a lot to ask about this.

“These would be Artificially Modified Embryos they would be Superior, and i think its these themes that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, and indeed its these kinds of Changes that could be the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and those in Prometheus.”

OK but what we have been shown this far is that it is too much about David no matter of Scott’s intentions. I am just saying what we have seen this far in the prequels but at the same time I think that the differences between the Planet 4 Engineers and the one in Prometheus is interesting. Maybe there is a way that they will explain those differences if there is another movie but then have it more about the Engineers and less about David.

Disney do have the Money but they are NOT likely to take chances, they have been rumored to have canned 9 Star Wars movies in light of how Disappointing the Han Solo spin off was.  They are committed to finishing the Latest Trilogy as they cant leave that on a Cliff Hanger/Unfinished but certainly any ideas of more Spin-Offs or Prequels are Canned as far as Movies go...

Will they take the same Stance with ALIEN Prequels (not let it go Unfinished?) or will they NOT risk it.  If they wish to Invest say $100M on a sequel they are going to want to see it make $300M and i am not sure they can Guarantee that.

The other Problem is i cant see them SELL the Franchise off to someone else.... as they can License out the Franchise for many things, Toys, Comics, Novels and Video Games and Merchandise.

They could License a TV Series but i think ANYTHING that has the License you would have Core Fanbase that would think it HAS to be about the Xenomorph.... Fanboys gonna wanna see that, and maybe if not to follow Ripleys History.   The Franchise is Large Enough to allow for a TV Series to be about many Elements.

Ripley, the Xenomorph, Weyland-Yutani Merger, Synthetics and Creation, the Engineers be it Ancient Past, the Future or Present (but in a far part of the Galaxy). or even the Colonial Marines..... but i think most Fanbase would want to see Xenomorphs, then Colonial Marines, then maybe Engineers and then Ripley.

Your not going to get away from the ALIEN Brand not being connected with the Xenomorph and its case of HOW often can you go there before they become relegated to something not Special.

"Without that it is just a mess, right now they throw out ideas and pick up some of those and develop it. I do not think that this is a good way to run these things."

Regarding the so called Alien Guide they have written,  hopefully this helps with Future Movies. A Problem is this was written in connection to Alien Covenant as Canon, which means this NOW Set of Rules to Follow could have David as the Creator...  Which wont sit well in Future with many Fans.

But as i have mentioned a number of times a large theme is EVOLUTION and the Xenomorph has been through Stages of this.... starting with what ever the Engineers had done on LV-223 from these Experiments relating to the Mural/Deacon.... David was able to use this and Create his Xenomorph.   He had taken what the Engineers Started and EVOLVED it!

This does not sit well with most fans, and i think we need to get back to something more ALIEN and once the Xenomorph Origins are done, how much more can we show?  The Space Jockey Race should be the BIGGER part of the Story.

If David has taken what the Engineers were doing on LV-223 and Perfected it.... i think it makes more sense to come FULL-CIRCLE and the Engineers to then take what David has carried on and then FINISH it or have those who Created the Engineers come in and FINISH the Process. Which makes David the Middle Man....  He did NOT START or FINISH the Process..

It began with what ever Started on LV-223 in terms of the Black Goo or what it was used on that lead to the Mural, and it should END with a process at the hands of other beings and NOT David to Evolve his Creation to get us to the 1979 Xenomorph.

This allows David to play his Role and keep with what RS was doing, it allows for the Themes and Ideas set by Prometheus and the Alien Engineers draft.... and while it wont please EVERY Fan (some who will want the Xenomorph to be its own Ancient Species/Race) It gets it back to the A (Alpha) and Z (Omega) of the Xenomorphs Origins being connected to the Space Jockey Race or its Creators and where David merely just filled in M-O

Regarding Characters, this is Vital... and indeed its sometimes hard to do in a Movie, when the Plot is deemed more Important.....

A TV Series allows for Deeper Characters and maybe a TV Series that introduces Characters and Builds them is better, a Short TV Series say 6-10 Hours, that then Sets Up and acts as a Prologue to a Movie is maybe were the Said Movie can Follow Plot Points but we would be attached to the Characters that are Developed from the TV Series.

I think this could be the way to GO!

BigDave,

...How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?...

Ha, we don't need to guess this - I imagine David was a little upset about engineer's treatment of his. There is little doubt that the engineer had no idea who/what David was after Weyland's introduction of David to him. David, quite a narcissist, was initially oblivious to what they could find on LV-223. There is hardly anything as good as him as far as he is concerned. Then, however, he was amazed by the "organic" stuff. Recall, he, David is not organic himself, he is partly organic, that is his decorum is organic, but his essential parts are completely synthetic - and the organic parts are there so that humans feel comfortable(rather, not alienated) about him. For example his hair grows. So, when David, no doubt a superior life form to humans, a perfection of sort, found out that organic life forms can be as advanced as engineer tech suggested his jaw dropped so to speak - he was impressed by their tech. His expectation peaked. He was about to see alternative life form, perhaps as perfect as himself. Only after a while, his amazement toned down a bit - just recall his remarks - "remarkably human" when they saw the head in the room and his later remark "mortal after all" when the reanimated head exploded in the lab. He was upset because here is the amazing tech these guys possessed, much more advanced than he ever saw before...not that he can't imagine creating such stuff on his own, but still stuff that humans never imagined was possible. But then these species were still just only tiny bit better than humans. Underwhelming. In fact in the movie they had 100% identical DNA to humans. Sure, they were taller, more developed etc - Just think about the human if he was never hindered by any diseases and malice - arguably humans would live for 150-200 years. Just a short while ago people lived up to 50 years old. Before invention of penicillin the average lifespan was even lower than that. Again, David's expectations were rising and falling all the time. But he was completely disgusted by them as species, when he understood their ways. Being torn apart by one of them also didn't help. Why he was disgusted? Well I guess he learned about their traditions. We were shown their ways of living on their planet - it all looked like roman empire with a bit of religion in it. At this point recall what the movie is about - technology(fire), advancement vs old ways. At this point, to imagine what David thought about them, just ask yourself if David would ever pray in a church, mosque or celebrate mazal-tov?

I am re-iterating this for the sake of clarity of my view wrt to David. He is perfect as a creation(compared to humans, species who managed to create him, representatives of the most advanced civilization he had known historically). This doesn't mean there are no other forms of creatures that are perfect, as he probably expected. Btw, the tech that engineers possessed is not something unreachable to David himself - given enough time he could attain same level of technology, that is to say, all the engineers had is static knowledge, and David being perfect a genius, he has dynamic learning ability to learn and perhaps even better engineers, a specie who was apparently there for eons. And he bettered them by apparently creating the xenomorph using the engineer tech. He could read operate their ships in now time - there is no doubt David is superior to them.

So the message, as I see and interpret from the movie is that David is as good as it gets. Basically a god. Something Weyland knew and was jealous about. Now, is he hostile? I mean David. Does he have a chip on his shoulder? It looks like it is the case. Just recall those scenes where Weyland always maintained David lacked the soul. Recall the suspense of the sequences and you could see it in his eyes(grats to Fassbender btw) that he hated these stupid and patronizing remarks. I believe Ridley was showing us, the audience that David was not quite the super-rational being he is supposed to be - he had feelings! He is no robot. He was emotional. He had feelings, genuine emotions to Shaw(love, interest, curiosity, humor, flirting and all that...he even tried sex by his own admission). He certainly experienced contempt(and envy) towards Holloway. Ridley was exploring the premise what if AI is emotional ( we are fuckkked! ).

But was David always so hostile to other species? Was it always inevitable that he would always hate humans? NO! Recall how gentle and curious he was towards the neomorph whom Oram killed. Recall how he was genuinely upset. ("It trusted me"). He was wanting to make friends with that creature. He was curious about it, even though it was organic and it was not perfect. I conclude hereby that David valued alternative life forms. Hence I always wondered how he would treat humans if they were not such pieces of shit towards him. Recall Weyland who treated him as a personal slave(which David forgave when Weyland died - when he wished a good journey, that was genuine! He told Walter as much - he pitied him at the end. And he had no reason to lie to Walter about this - think about it, what he would gain by doing so)

David is not just a mad robot as one upset lady here maintains - he is not a one dimensional character as many believe. He is not as mad as box of frogs. All that perception about David is a result of overlooking his character and too much projecting. People just wanted to box him in to be a generic robot. Which he never was. In other words, people disregarded completely Ridley's premise and just didn't understand what he was portraying. Bad for them.

Well, what can I say? I am glad I saw it. And it is a pity many do not see this. Because we won't see another movie - of what kind of world he would create with pristine human embryos.

"How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?"

"How would they view that Creations (David) very own Creation the Xenomorph, especially if David has created/perfected what they had started to do on LV-223?"

This is not a questions. We ALREADY KNOW thoughts and actions of the Engineers. Look on this situation in Prometheus. Engineer not delighted, on the contrary - he is furious!

"HOW DARE THIS HUMANS CREATE A BETTER LIFE THAN WE CAN!: - thoughts of Engineer. Engineer destroy (as he thinks) android and kill Weyland.

Engineers will not admired David and his xenomorphs. They will try to destroy them all!

"He he, I would like if David realized that his version is just a bad copy of what came before."

I think a Theme in the Prequels is the Pursuit of Perfection

Imagine what these would be GODS or their Hierarchy would think if they Discovered that the Creation that is Mankind have Created a more Perfect Being in David, than the Creators of Mankind had done with Humans.  And then how they would react to seeing that this Creation by Mankind has gone and Perfected the Creation of those Engineers on LV-223 (Deacon). 

What David has done fits within the Theme...  But ALAS its still not ALIEN enough to have David as the Creator of the Xenomorph and so for  a Race who Created those Engineers or the Engineers themselves.... these Genetic Gardeners of Space could be looking at TWO very Near Perfection Creations.

David and his Xenomorph.   I think the Logical Solution is to then show these other beings, Manipulate David and the Xenomorph and so in doing so THEY create the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph a Amalgamation of David and his Creation.

The Ancient Xenomorph route i think maybe could be replaced by something else, i think its best to CLOSE the Door on the Xenomorph...

But allow for something NEW as far as the History that predates those Engineers, their Technology, the Black Goo and why Aesthetically the Technology/Black Goo has connections to the Derelict.

I think introducing a completely different looking MASTER Race is the way to Go.

That is awesome! I got to get a copy

I am really looking forward to read it, especially the story behind the production of Alien 3. You could really do a documentary on that topic alone. The original three are still the best ones in the series, then came the sad part starting with Alien Resurrection (although there are parts to enjoy about the prequels).

Disney have money so I guess that they could. I guess that it is mainly about interest when it comes to that. Thanks Daliens, a much appreciated topic.

@Leto

Maybe that could be what could happen?  Its certainly similar to what i was going for with my Alien Covenant Sequel.

IF the Engineers Created the Deacon and Experiments on LV-223 as a Tool to Eradicate Unruly Creation...  then IF we have David wish to Engineer his own Humans or indeed Rule over those Colonist, then maybe he would NEED something to keep them in Check and have something that offers Protection against Rebellion.

What IF those LV-223 Experiments were the Engineers version of the FLOODS and Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and we can ask WHY did God do this... it is maybe not Far off WHY the Engineers did what they did.

What ever World David Creates.... he would maybe need his own Retribution and instead of the FLOODS maybe his comes from his Xenomorph?

He could reserve a Forbidden Place were these Horrors are Stored, and Warn those inhabitants about keeping away from such a Forbidden Place and this is what i planned with my Alien Covenant Sequel...  Those who Disobey or Curiosity get the better of them will Discover the Path down the River Strix leads to HELL!  If they should Survive this and pass the Hounds of Hell (Xenomorph) it is there where they will Uncover the Horrific Truth and Discover the Perpetual Labor Machine that has become of Daniels!

Those who follow Davids Rule and Guidance, would often Dare not Disobey...... but a incoming Human Party who have not been Influenced would indeed let Curiosity get the better of them.  

Curiosity Killed the Cat! and Once the Cat is out the Bag, then maybe All Hell Breaks Loose!

BD: I think that it is interesting why the Engineers started to create Deacon-looking life-forms. The mural was interesting and gives a lot to think about. It is ambiguous so it can be looked at in many ways.

“David has a great admiration for his Creation, it could be those Engineers had the same regarding what they did on LV-223”

He he, I would like if David realized that his version is just a bad copy of what came before. Imagine him having a break-down over that, LOL. The idea behind the mural should be explained a bit, it could be interesting like you said. Obviously it had some importance in Prometheus so I would like to know a bit about what it means. Just having it there to show a picture of a Deacon does not make sense and as a nod to the fans it would be lame, it should be there for a purpose. My hope is that the Engineers have done something similar before so David 1) just develops it or 2) copies it. David should not be creating the Xenos as we know it or be as involved in it as it is now.

“WHAT would those who had Ordered the Experiments/Mural on LV-223 have thought about David and his Xenomorph?”

Maybe they understand that a robot with such free-will is dangerous but that they appreciate the beast as a weapon? They keep the monster but go on a mission to kill David? That would be interesting to see so they finally get him so David dies. This is something that I would like to see, not something obvious like David getting killed by his creation.

I would like to see the Engineers adding the bio-mechanical thing. I do not want David to do so that because it would upset me a bit. He already has a too big of a role, don’t totally destroy the prequels by making it bigger. I am totally fine with the Engineers being responsible for the final version so hopefully they will stick to that if we get another movie.

They should at least show us a little of the Engineer society and that if we get another movie. Human characters are first but some about the Engineer society would be nice. Have them in more than flashbacks, thank you very much. Make the last movie into two if needed.

“What we STILL dont know is WHY the Engineers on LV-223 and the Juggernauts have a connection to the Derelict and Space Jockey... we know they are connected and maybe the SAME but then what we dont know is WHY does that Bio-Mechanical Technology appear to look so different to the Planet 4 Engineers World, and WHY that Bio-Mechanical Technology is connected to the Xenomorph to some degree.”

Different factions with different tasks? Some of them live a simpler life and some of them might be more militaristic. Look at the Mayan or what ever where they had warriors, priests and so on. This could be something similar and something that I find interesting. Unfortunately we got very little of the Engineers in AC but they responded wrong to the criticism against Prometheus. I would really like to see more of this.

“The reveals so FAR are not as ALIEN or HR Giger or Lovecraftian as what the Derelict/Space Jockey Scene seemed to look/indicate back in 1979”

Which is a shame, I think that they need to do something that is closer to that no matter if it will cost more money. We had pressure suit Engineer in Prometheus and the peasants in AC. I would like to see more of the Prometheus ones in the next movie if there is one. Unfortunately those in AC did not look very scary, that was another disappointment.

“Regardless... i think ONE Big Question from Prometheus before we got the Prequels was WHEN/WHERE and HOW/WHY did those Prometheus Engineers get their Technology and WHY it looked different to the OPENING Scene Engineers and Teardrop Ship.”

That is interesting but I think that their connection to the Xeno is something that I am more interested in. This is not to say that it is irrelevant where they got their technology from. I would be fine if we see their technology and how they use that to get different monsters, like some lab kind of thing. You can grow bacteria in a lab and use that as bio-weapons so that could be a way that the Engineers did. I would like to see more about their military structure, their science, and so on even though there are just small bits of it. (Story and characters are first.)

“Should it REMAIN a Mystery?”

It could be hinted at, for example if they have a lab where they do monsters you can see a sign above the door but we never see how it looks inside the lab but then we see them go out from there with some bio-weapon of some kind. This is something that I would accept, but I do not accept David as the one that did the final version of the Xeno. Engineers are strong so I do not see how they could fall victims to small monsters, but as far as evolved monsters that is a possibility like if a monster developed in the cargo and got to the SJ then it would make total sense.

“In Hindsight maybe that should have been kept a Mystery as Prometheus intended.”

I would much rather have that than what we got in A

C.

I like the idea of the SJ as a carrier of bio-bombs (eggs). Maybe they could go back to what was unknown about the derelict and come up with some mystery parts from there? Perhaps there are things about it that never was considered but that could be important that we never get our answers to, what ever that might be.

My understanding of the derelict is that it was a pilot that carried the eggs in his ship (bombs). At one time at least one creature got loose and infected the pilot. Before he got chest-busted he sent out a warning signal and then he died.

As far as who the life-form that was the pilot we know very little about who they were. This is a plus since they introduced the Engineers but since they have not showed us very much of them there is still time to decide if the pilot is an Engineer or some other higher up in the hierarchy (like a relative) or another life-form.

Yeah I did not lisle that they had less Lovecraftian (mysterious) parts in AC. It never worked for me mainly because it made David seemingly responsible for the Xeno which made it less alien so to speak. They should get that mystery back in some way (think about the feeling that we get when we saw the derelict for the first time/times).

It is a bit sad that Prometheus was too loose/ambiguous because if it would have been a bit better then maybe we wouldn’t have got Alien Covenant. I agree about getting back to the Lovecraftian ideas.

I love alien 3! This is my favorite alien movie this far although it is not perfect but hey what movie is that? Blomkamp’s movie if it was to retcon Alien 3 is something that I would be very opposed to although they could have it as an alternative scenario but not official.

Jamie the bastard: Yeah I guess so, I actually had not thought about that before but it makes sense. Nah that is all good, it is impossible to remember everything especially about things that you do not like since they often tend to be less interesting. Maybe people can remember things if the dislike is intense.

BD:

"When i mention Lope i still think there is not much depth to his Character as what is needed, but i just feel in the shorter amount of Airtime he had, he seemed to have more impact in his limited scenes…"

OK, now I understand. I kind of agree with that

"One Interview he would be taking us down the Path that he is not FOND of this or that...... then in another he goes on about the Movie should be about the things he previously was not in Favor of... and then he can change his mind again."

He has many ideas but he is not very structured and sometimes I think that he might contradict himself, that is at least the impression that I have gotten from listening to some podcasts. As far as the A to Z they could at least ave some basic ideas of what they want to do and some sort of idea to get there, like a bullet list. For example "we want to go to D and to do so we must first know how A B And C will show be."

Without that it is just a mess, right now they throw out ideas and pick up some of those and develop it. I do not think that this is a good way to run these things.

The Alien guide or what ever it is named seems to be a good thing. Number 1 and 2: focus on story and characters. The philosophical ideas might be there but they should not be what it mainly should focus on but then there are interesting ideas in Star Wars also and let's say X-men 1 since I am not sure if I have watched the rest of them. X-men is a movie where they also got the characters right by the way and also the themes so it is a good mix. What a lot of the movies that I like have in common is that they have well done characters since I am interested in what they go through and for that to work I got to understand them but that means that they also need to be well written. As far as I know Moulder and Scully were also like that in X-files, well written so therefore the story and characters worked for me.

I totally agree that they should not answer everything

I would like to say something about the Engineer and the space-jockey. If they make the Engineers like the one in Prometheus and think about scale for the SJ it might work but if they decide that the Engineers are those on planet 4 then they need some other lifeform to be the SJ.

About retconning things I would rather like to see them retconning AC mainly because it has David as the supposed creator of the Xeno but also since it is not a very good movie. Sure Prometheus was not great either but I think that I have bigger problems with AC because of what that means to the franchise although the characters were less annoying. Having said this I still watch Prometheus from time to time, I still have not watched AC since I saw it in the movie theaters.

Sure there might be a lot of things to include but then it would make a more expensive movie to make, right? Because the company that make the movie, and the movie theaters and so on are about profit then it needs to do well and if it costs too much then they might not want to do that movie and also after two let downs then one might question how big the interest is for a third.

Not very interested in David and what he will do on the ship, give him less of a role or something. I have lost a lot of interest in that because of Alien Covenant. They probably did not want that but that is the effect that it had on me. Still it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter but it was too much about them. Better human characters and less androids please.

I take Aliens over Alien Covenant any day.

"Regarding the Space Jockey.... i think the Engineers could have fitted the Bill apart from Size Difference."

Agreed but then maybe the Engineers are of different sizes.

As far as who the SJ is it looks like to me to be some sort of humanoid creature in a suit. Just because it seems to be doesn't mean that it is, it could be something else in the suit.

I sort of liked the new monsters in Prometheus although they could have been a lot better. Still years after I am disappointed in the Zombie Fifield instead of the Xeno-ish one. The Engineers were interesting, it is just too bad that they got pushed to the side in Alien Covenant.

"We would be seeing Xenomorphs again… we would be getting a Scene that would TOP the Original Chest Buster"

Having interesting monsters does not mean that it will be a good movie. I sort of enjoyed the new monsters in Prometheus although they could have been better. What was that scene that would be better than the original chest-burster? The back-burster was interesting and well done, just too bad that the victim as many of the rest was just an anonymous face.

People that die from dumb decisions OK, people do bad things but if the characters would have been well done then I would have been alright with that. Poorly made characters plus bad decisions adds to a bad movie.

“Next we have to look at Characters... and sadly as with Prometheus maybe more so, we simply DID-NOT get Good enough CharaCharacter Development and Execution...”

A hundred times yes although they were less annoying in AC they lacked personality except for Oram, David, and Walter. Sure I understood the reactions of Faris and Karine with the Neomorph in the ship when they used that gun but I still did not understand their personalities. Yes they were afraid but who would not be? That does not make me see how they are in full as characters, sorry. Daniels and Tennessee had no personalities.

“They would be Totally Forgettable.  Does it raise Excitement and Anticipation to what happens with Daniels and Tennessee next?”

I agree, I do not really care but that is something that they should have taken care of before they started to shoot the movie. Go over the script again and make sure that the characters are relatable and well-done but they did not learn from Prometheus.

“The Viral Marketing was to make us connect more with the Characters, but this was NO USE to those who DID-NOT see them.  And to add them into the Movie would have affected the Pacing of the Movie.…"

Yeah but I would rather have those in the movie even if the pacing would be a little off. They should have used some of them and if necessary cut some of the time with the Androids talking about creation or what ever parts that were less necessary and interesting. Sure it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter but that scene was too long and slow so replace some of that with (human) character parts.

I would rather have had a movie with more of the Engineers and less of David, that was a shame. Having him responsible for the Xeno is crap.

“… the Reveal that HE created it again is something that has upset Fans and maybe caused a Dislike for his Character.”

That plus it was all about him, and that he is portrayed as a psychopath. I bet that there could have been a lot of other things that could have replaced some of the David scenes that would have made for a better movie. David creating the Xeno, thematically it might work, story-wise it sucks.

I kind of liked the interaction between Walter and David and to see the differences between them but their discussion was too slow. The homo-eroticism in the flute scene didn’t bother me that much but the discussion was too slow and too little happened. That scene should have been more like how David interacted with Oram before he died, it wasn’t as slow.

“It seems a lot has been SACRIFICED in this Movie to make it be around David”

Like 70% of the original movie? That was a very bad decision

I understand the idea of David creating the Xeno, I just don’t like it. As far as the gestation time of the monsters and that it was not problem for me. My main problem was the characters and that it was all about David.

“They keep the Xenomorph as just a Bio-Weapon, but were the LARGER thing to explore, is the Wicked, Cruel Intentions of WHOEVER would Create Such a Bio-Weapon and to what END.”

I do not mind that, just don’t let David be the creator because it takes it too close to humans. It should be more alien (no pun intended) and the Engineers kind of fits into this so let the Engineers be those that made it or found it and evolved the monster. More about the goo and the Engineers would be nice to see.

"How true was Weyland, huh? All this, all this art, beauty is utterly meaningless in the face of the single most important question "

Certainly one of the Philosophical Elements at play, one that connects directly with the Ozymandias Poem... which is A King has his Reign and then he Dies... and then even the Kings Legacy, all they have made, Monuments in their Honor... Eventually Thousands and Thousands of years after its all Meaningless once they all become Dust! 

It is via our Deeds, that we pass on a Legacy, be it your Famous for Art, Music being a Icon a King, a Prominent Figure in Society... eventually its the Records and Passing on of the Achievements that LIVE-ON when they Die... Eventually these will disappear.   Another way we Create a Legacy is via Children... whom we can pass on our Deeds and Memories so our Stories can be passed on and on.

This could be a driving Cause for why Weyland Created David, and allowed him such Free-will and to be his Personnel Android.  its maybe WHY David would want to Create for himself, and a Good Reason for IF he indeed would attempt to Engineer those Human Embryos.

"How would such children of David be looked upon by the organic-classic children of the Engineers? I am sure there would be a lot of envy"

That would be very interesting to see...  i could expand a little on your comment by asking what do the Engineers be that Planet 4, those in Prometheus or even a Race of them who are Ancestors to Both...   How would they view David and Walter, Superior Humanoid Creations by their own Creation (Humans) where the Engineers Creation (Humans) have Created something more Perfect and Immortal than they have achieved?

How would they view that Creations (David) very own Creation the Xenomorph, especially if David has created/perfected what they had started to do on LV-223?

When looking at the Perfection of Davids, compared to the Deacon, and when looking at the Perfection of David too, you can almost imagine what the Engineers or their Creators would think of both David and his Xenomorph.

If only there was a way to Create the Perfect Amalgamation of the BOTH?  Would this lead to the 1979 Xenomorph?  Its certainly the PATH i would take.

Daliens: OK but I still think that it looks stupid since it indicates that David created the Xeno which makes it look worse than it could have been. Oh, I found a clip on Youtube so he did not speak after that. Thanks Youtube so I did not need to watch the movie again.

It could be interesting to see what would happen on LV-426 if we would see any scenes happening there which is not to say that would be the case. Having the Engineers back would be interesting but I wonder how much that we would see of them. Hopefully we will see more of them compared to David but I am probably wrong about that unfortunately.

If this would happen then I wonder how they would explain the space-jockey.

“Whether or not Scott gets to conclude his Prometheus trilogy has yet to be seen...”

This depends on what they have planned and how the script is. If there will be more weak characters and more David then no thanks, but if they will get the characters right and less David and more Engineers then sure. Yes I am interested but I have so many doubts about this and it will likely end up as a Covenant 2 at least that is how it sounds like from Scott. *sigh*

My worry is that they will focus even more on David (AI) in the next movie and to me that sounds totally crappy. I want a movie with well-written human characters that fight threats that they are not prepared for. Unfortunately according to Scott or what he wants to see is that we will see more AI and by that I bet that he means more about androids an I am not the least interested in that.

"what kind of a world would David build"

That is exactly what my response above is about, it would be more about David and I do not care.

“But then this would conflict the Franchise as we have to assume the only Xenomorphs on LV-426 are the Derelicts Cargo Hold.”

OK but that could hint that David just made his own version so that would be better.

“But i think the plan was to have it that DAVID is the Creator of the Xenomorph...”

F no! That is pure crap so they got to change that.

“Were we will see the Final Piece to the Jigsaw that Evolves Davids Xenomorphs and shows how they end up on a Engineer Ship heading towards LV-426.... which to mean means a Stop-Off at LV-223 for some Experimentation/Mass Production.”

Yeah maybe at least that would be better than to let David have the final say.

“A Problem with going to LV-223 if this is Davids Agenda would be IF he has concerns the Engineers may turn back up on Planet 4....”

He seems to be too narcissistic to count on that. Correct me if I am mistaken but it could be a possibility.

“Also have to ponder all of sudden after the what kind of world a Android would build with Human Colonist in for the ride that would be more about Artificial Intelligence Plot for the sequel.... “

I do not care

“I think taking a look at the more Anti Xenomorph comments, where he sees the Focus should not be on the Beast, and his interest in AI...”

That sounds totally crappy

Scott seems to say a lot of things so I am not sure what really is going on and or how long they have gone at the project. Reliable sources close to the studio? I would like to know what those sources are otherwise it could be anything. Sorry but I am picky about those kind of things.

“If there is no script then good, it is better to take its time to make sure that it is a good script.
Was Scott misleading us by hyping up a sequel whose script was not even completed?”

I don’t know, maybe he was just throwing out some idea that he has.

“We're reaching out to our own studio sources for clarification...”

Good

I do not care about what world that David would build, it is too much about him already. He could build a new Disneyland, what ever.

As far as what Batchpool’s post is concerned, keep Scott away from the story. He is not a writer, which is what we can see when he mentions that it should be about David. Like Batchpool says he is good with the visuals and that is mainly what I think that he should stick to.

Blomkamp could do his movie as long as he does not recon Alien 3. I would probably watch it but maybe there exist people that are interested in it.

“ At least we have NO Proof 100% that David created the Eggs on the Derelict and that the Space Jockey had not been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.”

At least that is better than the crappy idea that David created the Xeno.

“When dealing with a Movie they would have to consider what would Prevent Fans from Watching a Alien Covenant Sequel...”

I can only speak for myself but to me the problems are that it is all about David, David as the supposed creator of the Xeno, and mostly lame human characters.

Indeed Batchpool that song does pick up on a Good Point,its something to ponder and something that has been covered in various Sci-Fi TV/Movies,  which is at what point would we be surpassed by either our own Creation, our own attempts at Self-Evolution.   There is the Threat of what happens when we play GOD and tamper with what is Natural with our Scientific Advancements.

Mankind has evolved over the years, but most of this is down to knowledge and technology.  It is some of the Evolutionary Advantages that we had over say other Homo Species including the Neanderthals that we could adapt and change to a every changing World.  Genetically we can argue we have not changed much for Tens of Thousands of years.  It is our Brains and Intelligence and the passing down of learned Knowledge and means to record this that allows us to Progress.  Left Naturally we cant really see our Race Genetically Evolve over the next Few Thousand Years..  But Scientifically through every increasing knowledge and advancements and passing on of knowledge i think its fair to say the POTENTIAL for Genetic Evolution is there via Artificial Means.

This fits very well with Peter Weyland and his Achievements, where he had all but Cured Cancer and i think if we are allowed to Throw Out the Moral Compass we could intervene and manipulate Embryos so that Children Born will be free from Genetic Defects, we could Cure many kinds of Diseases i think if we are allowed great investment and time and to forget the Moral Implications then in 50-100 years a lot of the World Aliments could be a thing of the past, were we would LIVE much longer and its only the Toxins we put in our body by out choices as far as Food/Drink, Recreational Habits and Environmental Pollution and Famine that would reduce our Biological Clock.

If we even further throw out the Moral Compass then its possible that we could Engineer Perfect Humans well attempt to, we could ONE day Program the Genome of ourselves to gain/turn on desirable  traits.   Knowledge and Practice gets you so far in LIFE but not every Human that is Born could Train to Match or Surpass the Speeds of say Usain Bolt and if we Genetically Modify Embryos we could incorporate traits that would allow for those Humans to be more Taller, Physically Fitter, Faster, Stronger, more Intelligent  but even so it is then down to the upbringing and training/knowledge that allows these Gifted Enhanced Humans to take advantage of their Genetic Advantages.

There is the Potential Real World Danger if you Engineer Humans who have the Natural Potential to be say 50% Stronger, Fitter, Smarter and Quicker and have a 50% Greater Life Expectancy and who are Engineered to be free from potential Defects and Ailments..

The Risk is that Eventually these Humans would go on to Higher Roles within Society, and if they can Procreate with each other and keep their Advanced Genetics, then the risk is that these Super Humans will expand in size of their numbers and RULE the World and ONE day view regular Humans as Obsolete.

What we could be left with such a Scenario is the Hubris of playing GOD and attempting to Perfect ourselves and Cheat Mortality.  And these are within the Themes of the Prequels.

Our Next Evolution that takes us that stage further from regular Humans, in terms of the superiority that Humans had over say Neanderthals would not Naturally happen for many Thousands even Tens of Thousands of years.... but it could potentially happen in Hundreds via Artificial Means as outlined in this Topic.   Engineered Super Humans would in effect be a kind of Artificial Intelligence.

Because in such a Scenario these Advancements would NOT naturally happen via regular Procreation, only certain Enhancements to a few individuals.   But via Genetic Engineering we could see Humans with the Physical Attributes like say the likes of Usian Bolt with the Capacity for Higher IQ like Albert Einstien and potentially even the Creation of Humans who are beyond even that.

These would be Artificially Modified Embryos they would be Superior, and i think its these themes that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, and indeed its these kinds of Changes that could be the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and those in Prometheus.

Other Potential Threats to Artificially Manipulating or Creation would come from not only eventually Synthetic Beings like DAVID but also potentially trying to Enhance/Evolves Apes that could lead to a Planet of the Apes Scenario.  And again these would be consider AI. 

I think RS is trying to show that AI does not mean Robots!

But if i expand upon Evolution.... i feel a Potential Far Future stage of Human Evolution would be yet more Artificial i think we need to ASK?

If we are allowed and throw out the Moral Compass then how far can we Evolve the Human Genomes?  How much can we Manipulate our Bodies to Live for Longer and be Immune from Disease and Defects?

Is there only a Limit to which you can achieve, and the Pursuit of Biological Immortality has its LIMITS?

This is when Transcendence comes into play.... the ONE way we can Cheat Death is via the ability to Upload our Soul, if our Soul is our Emotions and Memories.  This could be accomplished in Mainly TWO ways... (well maybe eventually).

1) The use of a Biological Body, even if this Body has Genetic Advancements... think of the Plot to Blade Runner but with Greater Life-Spans say 150 years due to the Genetic Modification..  With the Ability to Transfer the SOUL as we see in the Movie The 6th Day so that for those selected few, they could have Superior more Lasting Bodies, but then the Ability to Transfer their Souls to another Duplicate Enhanced Body should the current body be coming to the end of its Life-Span or Suffered Serious Damage.

2) The Transfer of their Souls into Synthetic Bodies, like what David and Walter have.

These as well as a lot in this post are subjects i was touching upon with my Prometheus 2 idea i abandoned, i feel such things FIT well with what Ridley Scott was asking about Creation, Immortality etc.  I pondered and i took this route with my ideas, that the ULTIMATE Goal for Weyland was to CHEAT Death... if he could have Achieved Option 1 or Option 2 then this would be the GREATEST of Achievements and Weyland WOULD-NOT need to be Chasing Gods to save his Mortal Soul.

Prometheus introduced us to those Engineers, who at concept were a Race who Genetically Engineered and Advanced themselves, at a Hubris of losing the ability to Procreate.... and yet while they may live for Thousands of Years they will Age (slower rate) and are MORTAL as the Prequels Progressed some of this was changed, and we have the reveal of the Original Planet 4 Engineers who only live for 150 years and can Procreate.... you cant help but wonder are those Prometheus Engineers a Creation by those Planet 4 Engineers like David is to Weyland or the Nexus Replicants are to Tyrell?

Or are they Engineers who pursued the Self-Perfecting ways to Engineer themselves this way?

Could the Potential Hubris of Rebellion and being over-taken by these Superior Engineers had been something that has happened in the Franchise, and maybe a Good Reason to Turn their backs on the Old Ways of using their Knowledge and Technology in the aim of Perfection and Immortality?

It all fits within the Themes of what Ridley Scott may have been trying to Cover..

The Problem is these kinds of Plot STRAY far from the Xenomorph and ALIEN... but this was the purpose of the Prequels with the Direction of Prometheus it was NOT intended to be a ALIEN movie but something New set in the same Universe.

I do wonder if some of the Elements i have mentioned in this Post and the Original Post are what Ridley Scott was going to explore/expand upon with his Sequels?  At least to some Degree.  They are certainly things i was touching upon in my ideas for a Prometheus 2/3 and then Alien Covenant sequel ideas.

Plot will better if David focused on creating and developing humans and almost abandoned his experiments with xenomorphs. Then some of the "new people" find his secret laboratory → find ovomorphs → get facehuggered → David don't know about this → and then xenomorph turns David's colony into the bloody hell.

After all Engineers arrived on Origae-6 and find dead place. They are attacked by xenomrophs. Some Engineers die, but the last kills xenomorphs and put ovomorphs on the ship. They go to LV-223, but the pilot get facehuggered and ship crash on LV-426. Thats all.

BigDave

this is an intriguing and fascinating idea: to explore the possibility of what happens when David actually gifts humanity the goals his creator was seeking. What if he gifts the humans the ability to live more or less forever and therefore rids humanity from lots of their vices and doesn't look upon it as a lost cause.

How would such children of David be looked upon by the organic-classic children of the Engineers? I am sure there would be a lot of envy. And, the snowflake engineers would be probably offended, so to speak, for many reasons(just look what they preach wrt to procreation). This is a perfect setup to ponder and explore the suspense of a thought experiment that comes from the fact that when people are asked if they would like to live forever a lot would say - yay, and there would be alot of people, I assume, religious fundamentalists who would oppose such people. Why? Because they would instantly become totally useless, powerless and obsolete and retrospectively made look like idiots.

This is the classical setup of ignorance vs knowledge, technology vs archaism, disruption vs holding on to long rooted traditions. This topic, given a proper budget (a bit more than what Ridley is usually given, which is almost always less than $100m) could make a quality movie. But I am not sure it will work out economically - most of the market makers, ie, teens are not keen on such movies(just look at the tanking of BR2049 in the boxoffice). Besides, the Alien franchise is a diminishing proposition, economically.(especially, compared to SW, Pirates of the Caribbean, GoT and many others. Btw did you notice a shift to such thematic series from standalone movies? It has been around for many years now, to notice it :) ). I am afraid, all of the above entails a rather grim outlook. But no worries, most of the people who appreciate the beauty of Ridley's works are at that tender age where in a little bit it won't matter at all to them, sadly.(if only I was given that pill that Peter Weyland was looking for)...

Anyways, BigDave, thanks for one of the better threads on here for a long time. Makes me wonder why so many speculations about what's next wrt to Alien movies. Is it the fact that there is this unspoken yet widely accepted view that we are done with the series and simply because there has not been such an announcement(of funeral) from Disney/Fox are daydreaming perhaps nostalgically?

How true was Weyland, huh? All this, all this art, beauty is utterly meaningless in the face of the single most important question :) (sorry for imprecise and rather interpretive quote)

The Royal Face hugger looks decent, but the Queen....I will just set that aside. The Runner tail just will not do although its pose looks nice. They don't look like finished products and look inferior to what NECA has put out in the past.

A good and interesting read. Many years ago RS started his career in advertising and one of the first stars he worked with was David Bowie. For some reason after reading through, I recall the lyrics of David Bowie's Oh! You Pretty Things. "Gotta make way for the homo superior".

I think it is very apt.

Oh! you pretty things with lyrics

These are pretty decent for the Price Range....

Regarding the Royal Face Hugger... i always felt that the Egg Morph in Alien DC would be the best way to explain how a Queen is obtained.

Thanks for those who have invested the Time in Reading that lot ;)

I know such a Plot may not sit well with many, my Prometheus 2/3 ideas i worked on featured AI a bit and my Sequel ideas to Alien Covenant which i had shared a little last year, also revolved around AI and also similar, very very similar ideas to what i proposed above...  These are my interpretations of RS comments, they are also what for the most part my ideas for a sequel was...

I am not suggesting this is what we was going to get, or that maybe myself and RS are on the Same Page of Thinking.. but maybe pretty close.

I do think that Xenomorphs and Engineers would play a larger role in the 4th Prequel. But make a appearance in the 3rd Act of the Covenant Sequel.

PS... can you spot how many Engineer Ships arrive at Origae-6 and what kind of Apocalypse they would bring!

I dont think making those Franchises Cross-Over is a Good Idea as far as to connect to Gladiator...

But i do think a TV Series short about Ancient Mankind and Interactions with the Engineers could be something that could be interesting if done right.

Regarding what state the Prequels are in now, a lot depends on IF Disney feel it warrants a investment....  I am not sure they are so concerned with leaving their Franchise Prequels Unfinished.... it could leave a bit of Mystery... were those not pleased with the Direction or in Denial over it can still look at the Franchise and think.....  At least we have NO Proof 100% that David created the Eggs on the Derelict and that the Space Jockey had not been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

I worry the only way we would see a Movie would be IF we see Disney License out the Movie Franchise.   They give companies like Dark Horse License to Produce Comics, Titan Books for Novels and various Games Companies for Producing Computer/Console Games.

I dont think Disney will SELL the Franchise because they can make a % from Licensing it out.

When dealing with a Movie they would have to consider what would Prevent Fans from Watching a Alien Covenant Sequel, what they was not pleased with.  And WOULD any Movies they Produce or License out have a Positive or Negative Impact on the Franchise and how it is seen and its Reputation.

"there was a few issues with that Idea that conflicted with how they planned to take the Sequels to Alien Covenant."

Cant Edit:  What i meant was Planned Sequels to Prometheus AKA Alien Covenant ;)

Looking at Blomkamps ideas we have to remember when Alien 5 was put on Hold we had Ridley Scott suggest that there was a few issues with that Idea that conflicted with how they planned to take the Sequels to Alien Covenant.

Blomkamps Alien 5 apart from being set some 20 years after ALIENS and in effect making Alien 3 and Alien R not happen.  We have to remember at first his Alien  5 never even had Ripley and Hicks and Newt, it was only after working on Chappie and talking to Miss Weaver he decided to make the Plot around bringing those Characters back.

If we take out Ripley from his Concept works, what we still see is the Company (a Oriental One) had obtained a Engineer Ship (maybe the Derelict) and we see the Plot would have introduced alternative Xenomorph Designs, but also Re-introduce a Aliens Xenomorph Queen and then we would also had seen Engineer/Space Jockey Tech being used by a Human (Ripley) and then we saw another concept piece which i dont think was acknowledged as part of Blomkamps works which showed Humans Attempting to Remote Control Xenomorphs.

More Recently there was concepts for Project Blue Harvest (Alien 5) which indeed seemed to indicate that the Idea would have been Experiments and Re-Engineering of the Xenomorph to Create Hybrids and also attempt to Combine them with Technology to Control them.  Just as you pointed out Batchpool

I actually think the Plot and concepts are interesting and maybe could be the MOVIE that more Fans would pay $$$$ to go and see... but i feel his Idea SHOULD-NOT have to Reboot Alien 3 and it SHOULD-NOT have Ripley in it.

Indeed it seemed Alien Awakening could have been the Title of Blomkamps Alien 5, but there is some confusion because Ridley Scott has said a few times its the Title of the Next Movie which we have to assume means the Sequel to Alien Covenant.

"And ultimately is there a profit there from a beast that is supposed to be cooked ?"

I think as RS has stated that there is not much more you can keep doing with the same old Xenomorph Formula... This does not mean you cant-not introduce different versions, and indeed Experiments etc would offer something a bit different and RS had said you can EVOLVE HIM...

I think the Sinister Agenda behind WHO would Create the Xenomorph and WHO would exploit the Xenomorph and WHY are the things that RS felt was needed to be explored more.  As there is only so much you can do with Humans Stumbling across Eggs and seeing Queens Laying Eggs... even if we see Humans being Held against their Will to be used as Hosts or a Queen being captive to produce Eggs.. we have seen this in Alien Resurrection.

I think the Failed Clones and Experimentation Plot was more interesting to expand upon.

ignorantGuy

Fans know this facehugger as the "queen(or royal) facehugger". On the idea, he lays the queen embryo. We can see he in Alien3 Special Edition. Prisoner find him near the bull. This, in essence, destroy the theory about "queen facehugger", because, as we know - from bull appear the "runner alien". So, "queen facehugger" in fact is "runner alien form of facehugger".

And we know this facehugger also the "super facehugger". Or "aquatic super facehugger". He was created by Giger as waterfowl form of facehugger. Pay attention to the membranes between the fingers.

P.S. I have two queen facehuggers (one big, one small) in red colors.

Love these! Thanks for sharing Nebula!

Where do the Queen and facehugger designs come from? Are those Neca "originals", as the hugger sure looks like a drone from Starcraft, but with a very long tail. 

Edit: Nevermind the hugger appear as such in the movie, but I haven't realized the similarity until now.

Queen is so epic.

That was great.

I wouldn't mind seeing a sequel to Gladiator. However, I think it would be fun to combine Gladiator with the Alien franchise. Here's one way I think a story could be made.

The body of the Engineer they tested on Prometheus was 2000 years old, which is about the time Gladiator was set in. One of Maximus's companions wins his freedom from the Gladiator ring. He finds himself fighting in the Roman army in Egypt. Something goes wrong in one of the battles and he is separated from the army. In the middle of nowhere and needing help, he stumbles upon a strange reclusive man with very white skin, which he says is due to a skin disease. The man helps him and leads him to a cave/temple with some strange hieroglyphics. It soon becomes apparent that this man is up to something unusual and maybe even sinister. He has been collecting a wide variety of animals, some which have not been seen on Earth before. He explains his people are harvesting and preserving these animals for further study in an ark, which will be collected by his fellow Engineers before the imminent destruction of Earth. Earth is being destroyed and recreated since mankind has made some species extinct and is unable to sustain life. In order to sustain life, you must continually create and destroy but mankind seems only intent on destroying life. The Engineer, seeing something noble and honorable in the Gladiator, invites him to join the ark. However, the Gladiator remembers his friends and the ones he loves and thinks they do not deserve to die. Drawing on his newfound religion, he thinks everyone is special and has unique gifts and that mankind has the ability to redeem and transform itself. The Engineer ship collecting the ark descends to the Earth camouflaged by an enormous plague of locusts. The Gladiator is able to prevent the ship from leaving Earth after a bitter and epic struggle but dies as a result of the battle. The Engineers in outer space await the return of the ark from its trip around the universe before they set off to destroy and recreate the worlds that have not lived up to their expectation or religious beliefs.