New Replies (Page 565)
Twaz, Thanks, All great points. But a little suspension of disbelief could make most any tie ins work if they had to. The Nostromo Crew's landing and Space Jockey ship in "Alien" could have been far from the Covenant site from our theoretical "Alien Awakining/Covenant 2" Movie. And Cryo sleep can usually explain just about any time-length and covenant colonist survival issues. And everyone involved in Weyland industries throughout the franchise are perceived as less than forthcoming about the truth in order to get what they want. So Weyland-Corp and Burke's pitch to Ripley and the Marines in "Aliens" could always be explained away or thought of as lies. Not at all arguing with you. Just thinking out load. It's quite possible your points above just can't be worked around. Thanks,
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Wow, that article was back in July. Glad to hear they were happy with the product though.
@NonsenseBody - I do not know where Sukal is? Maybe Chris knows?
Lawrence of Arabia - :) It's a nice day. Scott is the boss. :)
hox - By Cameron. Visit the link added by me in my previous comment, you'll find everything there.
@TheXenoneoprotomorph
No problem!
@Cerulean Blue
I think I've seen that, because I do have the translation of that conversation. :P Is Sukal still around? It'd be nice to have a fellow language nerd around to dig further into this.
I like the general direction of your idea, JONDERSPUP-69!. There's one problem. A:C takes place in 2104 while the Hadley's Hope Colony is established roughly 50 years later by Weyland-Yutani, in 2157.
Not to mention the Nostromo-Incident in 2122, when there was no colony yet.
It would need quite the "story" to make that work. ;)
@ NonsenseBody - If you search this site, you will find translations of the Engineer & David's Prometheus conversation. I believe it was titled: The Engineer Speaks? I believe it was Sukal who deciphered it?
The name Weyland has a strong connection with the 'superman of his day'. When did the letter 'd' get added, and by whom?
Lawrence of Arabia - 'David isn't going anywhere :D'
Or he'll be back. :)
So that is an Ultramorph if I know correctly. :)
"One of the things I enjoyed most about Alien was its subtle satirical content. Science fiction films offer golden opportunities to throw in little scraps of information that suggest enormous changes in the world. There's a certain potency in those kinds of remarks. Weylan Yutani for instance is almost a joke, but not quite. I wanted to imply that poor old England is back on its feet and has united with the Japanese, who have taken over the building of spaceships the same way they have now with cars and supertankers. In coming up with a strange company name I thought of British Leyland and Toyota, but we couldn't use "Leyland-Toyota" in the film. Changing one letter gave me "Weylan," and "Yutani" was a Japanese neighbor of mine."
—Ron Cobb, "The Authorized Portfolio of Crew Insignias from The United States Commercial Spaceship Nostromo Designs and Realizations" by John Mollo and Ron Cobb
hox - 'Coincidence?'
Yes, it is. The name comes from Leyland.
@ Ingeniero - Great post!! So disturbingly awesome!! Classic HORROR!!
Nice eye! I believe there is some relevance to that as the parallel is uncanny. Peter Weyland was a blacksmith of our times.
Ingeniero - Glad if I can help your investigation. I'm sure Hallett is working on the next chapter.
This is what should happen: Space jockeys return to their destroyed Capital/Holy site. Space Jockeys are pissed but have no idea how this happened or who did it. Space Jockeys fix and reboot Walter (who is himself, 'pissed" at David and in love with Daniels). Walter helps the Space Jockeys find David which is also his best free ride to Daniels. They find The Covenant on LV-246 (It has to be LV-246 because that will tie the story into the lost colony in "Aliens") and find themselves in a similar situation as the Space Marines and Ripley in "Aliens". This will only work if the Space Jockeys Characters were developed before their arrival and during the fight by giving them some Subtitled dialogue and even names . Otherwise no-one will really care when they get killed (even though it will have a "COOL" factor regardless). This would lead to a lot of amazing sequences of xenomorphs struggling against Space Jockeys. Each side Led by, or working with, their own robot. David on one side and Walter on the other. One added touch would be to introduce some alternate creatures developed during David's experiments on the Covenant and on LV-246. Whatever happens, it just has to end with A Space Jockey ship full of face hugger eggs and the Covenant has to have plenty of colonists still in cryo sleep so they can eventually be awoken by Walter or the ships computer so they can go on to be the colonists who get overrun in "Aliens". Boom! I like it. "Number One..... Make it So"
Love Dane Hallet, really cool guy with fantastic talent. I got the Art and Making of Covenant but was disappointed we didn't get more of David's sketches so hopefully he can get them collected in a book. :D
As usual, I agree with @Lawrence of Arabia.
To this I would add that just because you don't like the movie, it doesn't mean Ridley "screwed up big time". There's enough mystery remaining of all kinds to have mystique, and to my mind the thought that this remorseless and relentless killing machine could essentially be the result of human fallibility is every bit as intriguing as some unknown history. Am I talking about the Alien or David? I'll leave you to think about that.
Covenant needed to focus on David since he is the narrative link between these films, the main character. David creating the Xenomorphs makes sense, his goal of the perfect organism. The perfect survivor. It also links all the synthetic subplots throughout the original saga. The Alien is a biomechanical weapon, so of course it would have to be made and that a synthetic would find it compelling. Other than that his process feels like a huge tribute to H.R.Giger with David being him incarnate. I get where you are coming from with the mystique but that's been long gone since Aliens and AvP. There is some solace with the Xenomorphs being the descendant of whatever the Engineers made beforehand (be that the Neomorphs or Deacon) so it wasn't entirely made from scratch since David used there technology but hybridized/perfected it into the titular monster.
Stoked FOX is moving ahead with Ridley's plans :D Best news all day! I hope they stick with the Covenant plot and what happens with David and the Engineers on Origae-6.
David isn't going anywhere :D
"I trust Ridley [Scott] and Emma [Watts] to know the right story when they find it". This likely means Logan's 3 page draft for a sequel has already been scrapped, and that new writers will be hired.
Doesn't necessarily mean they are still looking or that they scrapped Logan's draft. It could mean that but her statement could also be taken as they trust Ridley's decisions even if it's in Logan's script.
"..they can also find a planet or a storyline or a villain that also lives in that universe that can be groundbreaking." This is a clear sign that David storyline will be downplayed or dropped altogether in the sequel.
Ridley isn't going to just drop David, he's built him too much to just toss to the wayside and he created the Xenomorphs. Plus he finds the character interesting as did most audiences with them saying Fassbender was the highlight of the film. He's also the Ripley of these prequels as most of the production team noted. Snider could even be talking about David.
When universes are as rich as “Alien,” they can stay in a too familiar groove — in which case you’re in trouble
What I took away was stick less to the original formula which cooked the beast (chasing through dark corridors) and more original and new (like the Engineers, Origae-6, synthetics). Everyone complained Covenant was too familiar and it looks like they listened.
Congratulations Blackwinter-witch on your work and the long, hard slog towards publishing Alien: Manticore. You're a wonderful, innovative writer and I wish for you the very best (country coffer-sized wealth) upon publishing. Thank you for sharing it here.
It is wonderful to see the new eyes, writing coming to the Alien universe joylitt.
Ati, I bet Ridley Scott has a mean embouchure.
You don't need AVP. There are enough hints and leads in the canon suggesting that the morphs are very old or at least older than Fassbender ... errm ... David. ;)
I don't think the Alien Vs Predator movies can be fully associated with Ridley Scotts movies in terms of cannon. Alien vs Predator movies are just fan fun made movies that can exist in there own universe of continuity. They don't exactly hold up with the original 4 alien movies either.
@Fatheredcat - AVP is not canon.
Good post! Totally agree and can't wait for the next installment!
From: ATI
I think it means they see our support and know what changes should be made to satisfy every fan. I think Scott will get the money. Thank you every fan here and everywhere for your positive and constructive work.
I'm with IRaptus and Blackwinter-witch in this. Having read several "official" novels beside the A:C novel (all approved by FOX btw) I don't think the crazy robot *yawn* "created" the Xenos. But alas you never know what the old man comes up with next.
Thinking about it I believe they kept it intentionally ambiguous to have a cop out in case the whole thing blows up in their faces. Wich it actually did.
Wow it always appeals to my vanity to see someone act as a proxy for everything I have been saying in my own particular idiosyncratic way.
The lack of empathy and heart which is responsible for the absence of mediation on the one hand and counter balanced by the emphasis on "bladerunner hijacking alien" narrative is in terms of connectivity central to the issue of the movie.
Its also really crucial when you judge a movie to do something very novel for a fan site, critique the movie, not the shorts or the narration or the special additions or the books or the novelisation. A movie should work as a coherent whole in its own right. THATS what gets people to the cinema.
IF you view Shaw's arc from that perspective alone the movie is indecipherable. I can talk about the crossing, the full scale library of pornographic imagery the novelisation until the cows come home but it ain't in the movie and if ain't in the movie it means didly squat. What we have is a message, a grave, memorabilia, some drawings and a cadaver and a eulogy to love, and the only way to make sense of that is to say it makes no sense and David is a mad robot and your supposed to hang the entire series on that and care about it, now that is nuts because thats not how story works for most human beings.
You have probably read some of my speculations about how this should have gone and they are about adding drama and conflict in real time rather than off the screen conspiracy.
Good to see the debate has moved on to sensible well thought out critique rather than empty defence and rationalisation or on the other hand micro analysing supposed plot holes and people being people which includes being stupid.
It is always important to remember that it wasn't all bad either, a good deal of hard work is on the screen it just could have been a good deal better.
"They can also..."
Dont worry at all
ScorpioStar you can count me in too.
I like Covenant more than Prometheus so I think we are going into the right direction.
The next film will have everything: Engineers, solid characters and script. I only hope we will not have to wait too many years for it.
Neoprimal Empathy and heart. Covenant was lacking in those departments. I also had a much stronger connection to Elizabeth Shaw and her strong will, her quest for answers. I would add that the next movies need more conflict and less conspiracy.
On one hand, I get that the franchise is RS' baby. I mean, Alien IS Sir Ridley Scott for the most part - however, I do think that he's fallen into a groove of having the movie be more about the Android and this psychological and complex connection between creator and created that has sort of created a distraction within the movies. You want to go there, do an AI/Android movie and let that be that. I want a movie about Aliens to be a story based on Aliens and humans and hey, if an Android is there, fine! but not in such an overwhelming capacity.
I think we all get the importance of these artificial beings in Alien. One has been around in every single movie in some form or another and they've all played important roles.
I'm definitely a fan. It was a bit before my time to catch it in the cinema but I sure did enjoy them as a kid. I'm sure saw 3-current at the cinema. Perhaps I'm too forgiving, I love all of the movies. My favorites are 2 and 4 (yeah, can you believe I love 4?!).
That being said, a major letdown for me was the fate of Shaw. I almost needed her to be another Ripley or at the very least make it out alive, somehow. I'm pretty high on the empathetic spectrum, which simply means I'm susceptible to certain scenes in movies if I really get 'into' the movie. If I care about the character. Not particularly stuff like gore or whatever, the psychological and "can you imagine how that feels" kind of thing. It's one of the reasons this franchise appeals to me so very much. It's genuinely frightening and terror inspiring in me due to the nature of these things and these poor space faring folk. Finding out what happened to Shaw not only ruined the movie for me but almost wrecked me. In my mind I can just imagine the sheer terror she must have felt. First of all he completely betrayed her. Then he experimented on her. We don't know how far he took it before she actually succumbed to the pain. For all we know she could have been ripped to shreds before he finally let her die. That got to me. It's not something deserving of a character who is caring enough to put him back together and has the survival instincts to staple a gaping wound back up and then carry on carrying on.
Anyway, as I was saying, on one had I want to see him finish his vision. I want him to tell his story. I'm just worried about the characters involved, lol.
On the other hand and moving on somewhat, I'd love to see Neil or James do another movie. Their movies have heart and this is what I want out of the whole thing. My dream and hope - if not for the very next movie then perhaps the one after that, is to give the series a bit more heart whatever that would entail. I want to invest in a character and have this character move on from movie to movie until they get some kind of happy ending, lol (naive, I know!) and then pass the baton to someone else.
I've listened to some novelizations I really loved and would love to see those turned into movies. One was based on what happens between Alien and Aliens, claiming that Ripley was actually found by another crew before the ones that actually rescued her. I won't go into details but yeah, they went through some hell and it neatly wraps up without messing with Aliens. The other is based on what actually went down on LV-426 before Ripley and the Marines get there. I'd love to see this brought to the screen too. The former would be difficult since SW while still extremely great looking (imho) is now aged, so that could only happen if she was recast or the franchise got some kind of soft reboot, but the latter could work with some minor CGI magic.
Finally, I would vote for NB doing either a reboot or perhaps some offshoot of Alien. Give him a chance. I love almost all of his movies and think he has great ideas, he's def. a scifi head - plus, his movies tend to have heart. Sure there may be some political dust in them, but all of these guys seem to have a need to do this, it is a part of their art, this isn't just shooting a movie to shoot a movie and make money. They are also making a statement. As long as it's not heavy handed, it's ok in my eyes. I'd also as I said previously, vote for James Cameron but he likely has his hands, feet, etc. full with Avatar and that world, which is his baby.
I'm obsessed with their language, I'll be using that link, thanks
