New Replies (Page 637)
Thank you all! I have another idea in mind that is more artsy and mirrors the relief design of the Covenant poster, but I'll have to squeeze that in between my design assignments for work. :)
Yay! Amazon for me.
the best part is that we are now ahead of 5 comic book movies. there is hope for us.
bought it from target opening day.
What is this Alien Prefix thing I keep seeing mention? And please don't jump all over me. I am only asking a question (hides).
It'll be good news when 20th finally announces the next film.
Where does the Bible talk about angels free will? In the bible the devil is a liar, deceiver and a portraiture of evil in general. What you say is more akin to Milton, and there it is more about hubris.
the Annunaki - sons of Annu if I recall correctly - are gods of the Sumerians, Akkadians, Assyrians, and Babylonians. (at least 3 of them being semitic). The gold thing, wasn't that made up by Zecharia Sitchin?
Why in the hell would David think that the Engineers would consider themselves soulless? They were shown to be highly religious with their sacrifices (a thing which David does understand) and considered themselves to be sinful. Always the sacrifice is related to some kind of idea of soul. Even if it is an object it acts by proxy.
And what about the the reference to Leviticus 22:3 which is about ritual purity. Even that is about souls.
I still don't understand why you want a redemption arc so much? Would not be that yet another cliche? Let's be frank, he is a space nazi robot (killing of the space semites with a deadly gas, blonde, blue-eyed, perfect lifeform/race creating,Wagner loving delusional prick) combined with the stereotypical mad scientist (by killing the woman who he loved). Doesn't he understand that by wanting to experiment on Shaw to create his vision of her, he only would destroy everything he likes in her (being here a misogynistic s**t). What is here to redeem?
For all of you, in the original script when they (Daniels and Walter) found the Drawings of the Shaw did they point out that they are somehow sexual fantasies? Robot porn?
@DG - I love it! The Big Guy in the chair is what started it all for me, too!!
Michelle Johnston - Told me that part of releasing a r/18 Film is you need it a certain level due to the classification and more shows needed each night.
Fair comment about 5-10 mins that should not cause too bad a reaction.
OR ONE FULL version. last show of the night rated r - finished when it needs to. extended cut pay $ or a £ more. see how many the FULL version gets.
Alien Hope For The Future in facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/AlienHopeForTheFuture
I also agree that "ambiguity" is a very good thing, but with this caveat... it must be handled and executed in a proper way.
Take some of Stanley Kubrick films for example. Most of his films are so well thought out, and so well crafted that ambiguity actually enhances and enriches them.
You can say the same thing about the original "ALIEN" film too, and many people have. The overall quality of the ALIEN movie, and the mysteries it introduced... created a franchise, and a whole other world... like Star Wars did.
But the sad facts are that Prometheus and AC have just not lived up to the same standards as those other examples. Ridley Scott has not taken the necessary care and/or time to really flesh out the stories and provide a thorough and concise storyline. And the films have suffered for it.
I just hope that he has some sort of master plan for all of this, and that he can tie everything together in a satisfactory way when it's all said and done.
Dude, those mysteries were BIG mysteries and part of the first movie. Alien was one big mystery with nothing explained. Now with Covenant, we have most of the big questions explained...but we have little tiny artificial mysteries woven in for no reason at all..that even if we solve..add nothing to the overall storyline. It's just ....pointless. If they are going to explain things..AT LEAST explain the little things...and leave the big mysteries if you need to have mystery.
I do like the Tom Hardy choice, as well! Although I'll have to come back with my choice(s) because I am blanking on, like, every actor I enjoy that would be good in the role haha
Give Michelle the throne and iron rod, I'm sure she could have weaved a better film into place. Why can't Fox find these great minds and use them? This is the folly of humanity and the disdain I carry for Scott Free now. What a tragedy and how could I ever blame a subset of fans who wanted A5 for this disaster. Can there be hope....idk...but I do long for the days that Fox would let fresh/aspiring young directors/writers into the fold.
Especially the bit where he's whining about not lasting seventeen hours.
It's Hudson, sir.
He's Hicks
;)
It's unfortunate that the attempt to force too much into Covenant will leave them with too much to force into Awakening. I mean, I think there is a chance that two movies will be made.
IF the two movies happen, then I think Awakening presents a good oppurtunity to make a well-receive movie. Covenant did have to setup a lot and introduce all those human characters (didn't do a great job of that even), mention the Eningeers, focus on David, and then also focus on the Xeno and Neo. If we receive two more Ridley films, the next one doesn't necessarily have to bog itself down with all of that. We pretty much have a stage set for what is next. If Fox can let the film breathe a little bit, it may bode well for their money and garner some positive reactions.
@Thombach - I think you hit the nail on the head. The visual evidence points to flying warms of "something" in both scenes, but until we see it happen up close we will never know for sure exactly what those things look like. All we have is that drawing from David showing a mote up close and the script references to extrapolate from, which point to tiny flying insects.
@Ingeniero - Great topic!
"Does any of this (below) in regards to the constellation, planet data visible, and Galactic Location mean anything to anyone?"
I compared those to the graphics in Alien and Prometheus, and nothing seems to match. I think we have gone round and round on that one with nothing definitive, since the non movie sources contradict each other.
Going by only what we see only in the movies -
Alien - Lambert says the moon is "just short of Zeta 2 Reticuli". We see a ringed gas giant with three moons orbiting it. The moon they orbiting the gas giant is later named as LV-426, but that's not in the movie.
Covenant - We see and are told that the system has a main sequence star like Earth and 5 planets. Planet 4, where they land, has two moons orbiting it. Planet 5 is a ringed gas giant.
Prometheus - A menu graphic on the DVD/Blu Ray states this is the Zeta 2 Reticuli system, but it is never stated in the movie. Holloway's graphic shows us a ringed gas giant with only two moons, one labeled LV-223. The gas giant in the movie looks very different to the one seen in Alien, so it is not the same planet, just another planet orbiting the same star as in Alien.
Since the Covenant graphic only shows one gas giant orbiting the star, it is not the same solar system as we see in Alien and Covenant. Also, David and Shaw would have been there in no time if it was just a matter of going from one planet to the next in the same system.
...and speaking of star maps. This is Shaw's map from the Weyland website.
It is the same map as the Betty and Barney Hill UFO abduction from the 1970s.
They claimed to be kidnapped by aliens from the Zeta Reticuli system, and drew that map of where they went. I don't know if that was supposed to be a little joke from Fox or not.
I own the whole set! I have a problem though...I have purchased every NECA Alien series, so my house is getting CLUTTERED with figures. Yes I do have a girlfriend too hahahaha
Anyone remembering 4h 40min extended Lord of the rings 3?
Indeed Michelle its interesting that Paglen/Green are not credited so this does then seem to show that a majority of the ideas set out in Paglen/Greens works are not used in Logans.
So its near enough like a complete re-write and Change of Direction and geared towards a more straight forwards Plot that pleased the Alien Fans and leads us more directly to the Xenomorph Origins as opposed to loosely covering these but to explore more so the whole reasons behind why the Engineers create life and why they chose to destroy some of it.
I think for a change of plan... they Felt Logan could work on and write a more direct less ambiguous kind of movie that draws closer to the Egg Cargo on the Derelict rather than away from Alien as far as the Derelict incident.
Logans Draft certainly seems to be taking that direction.
I know some may be relieved to now see all the Philosophical Type themes that Prometheus and Alien Covenant linked to Prometheus scenes had covered.. are now seemingly being by-passed.
I feel the Black Goo will now remain a Mystery as far as its Origins, its now going to be clearly how the Early Xenomorph Creation David has, evolves and ends up being Thousands of Eggs.
I do fear the Engineers Return will only be used as mainly Plot Device to Highlight the Threat and Prowess of the Xenomorphs David creates and Ultimately the Engineers will return as THEY (RS/FOX) Need One of their Ships and a Pilot to become the Derelict and Space Jockey
I think Matt Damon would do a pretty good job at being Hicks. Especially the bit where he's whining about not lasting seventeen hours.
This is very Good News
"Adding little mysteries is childish and annoying"
Little mysteries like what the hell are all those eggs in the Derelict about? Or where the hell did this monster come from?
I live for mysteries like these. Especially when you get some really cool answers followed up by further mysteries.
I think it can be taken as ambiguous but i think we really need to look at Davids ARC from Prometheus to this Draft.
David is essentially a Synthetically Created Human, made to look just like us and made to Fit-in with us, but made to SERVE US... we created him for a PURPOSE this Purpose was not purely to create Life... because Mankind can do that without the need for creating a Synthetic.
so David was created as a Tool, made to look like us so he is more than a Robot, and given more complex emotions to fit in more with Society but to still only be a Servant/Tool
Weylands Agenda for doing this also, was to showcase the Ultimate Success of all the Technology and Achievements Weyland had accomplished, and by creating a Synthetic life-form that is virtually indistinguishable from ourselves, is a testament to the Greatness Weyland wanted to set himself to be remembered for.
David however has a bit more Free-will in his programing than maybe a Robot should have been given, he also has been given very complex Human Emotions that are evolving and getting the better of him.
So David views himself as no different to a Human, he sees himself as a more Advanced Human instead, we can clearly see a whole Pinocchio kind of Arc to David to a degree.
Now the Line in the Draft in Question as per OT is Ambiguous but it could be taken as Mankind was created by the Engineers for a similar reason we created David.
Just as Holloway had said to David, "we created you because we could" and Davids reply about how would he (Holloway) feel if he found out the same answer from his creator.
So i think we cant yet ignore the various Creation Mythos and Why Mankind was Created... The Bible shows us that God had a previous Creation the Angels, but Lucifer was given a bit too much Free-will he was in effect similar to David, and other Angels are in effect similar to Walter.
So GODs Creation proved to be Rebellious, and so GOD created Mankind as a new Favoured Creation one that would not have the error of ways of the Angels (the fallen ones) and who all Angels would have to look at Gods new Creation (ADAM) as Gods favored and so the Angels were to serve Mankind, this is something Lucifer refuses to do and by giving Adam and Eve Forbidden Knowledge from tricking them to Eat the Forbidden Fruit, then Mankind was Tainted as Luficer had been before them.
The Annunaki/Sumerian version of Creation is a Higher Race of Gods, created a Lower Caste to Serve them and to do Tasks for the Higher Ranking Gods.... one of these was to Mine for Gold. The Lower Caste Igigi (Angels) Rebelled against this... and so the GODs created Mankind to Replace them.
And so while ambiguous i take Logans part in the OT as showing us that Mankind was created for a purpose as simply Tools for the Engineers, to perhaps do tasks so the Engineers no longer needed to.
Will do Michelle. Best see a doctor about having that corncob removed.
@ATI
I remember these interviews, where he and RS had said they are off to the Engineers Homeworld, RS had however referred to Planet 4 in Alien Covenant as the Homeworld of what he called the Original Engineers.
But its likely Planet 4 is just one of many Outposts/Colonies these Engineers are on. I had mentioned this a few times, well more lol and that Paradise in context to the Bible is...
*Not where GOD comes from.
*Not where the Angels come from.
*Place where the Garden of Eden is located
*Place where the Cradle of Human Civilization originated
*Place that is Guarded and Watched over by the Cherubim Caste of Angels
If we take Planet 4 as being the Proverbial Paradise, then it shows us that this World is where Mankind came from that our Origins came from here and the beings who dwell on Paradise. And these beings are watched over by another Hierarchy Race of similar beings who may Originate from another place and come back time to time to check in on the beings on Paradise.
I think this is not far off what Alien Covenant is showing.
I think Origae-6 to be a Engineer world would be a bit too much of a Coincidence, but it sure makes for a Shoe-horned plot. But some already complained how could David had arrived and Bombed a Engineer World... so i guess we have to ask how does David arrive with a Human Ship and merely Alien Eggs and unleash Hell on those Engineers of Origae-6
I think the Engineers Origins are Ancient and located across vast distances of the Universe never mind our Galaxy and so i think it would be a bit to coinsidence that a Engineer Outpost was located 39LY from Earth, and then Paradise say 250-270LY from Earth and then another more Engineer Homeworld located just 7.5 Human Ship years travel from Paradise.
I would assume the point is that Origae-6 has not Humanoid life on it... but thats not to say they cant show us the place ONCE had a Civilization that lies ruins, and had been destroyed thousands of years earlier.
So its still pretty open and up for debate what Origae-6 would be like, all we can tell is that Paradise/Planet 4 Minus the effects of the Bombardment by David, was a more Earth like World than Origae-6 was.
Thanks, I have read those book quotes here many times. I thought he was talking about the original goo leaking from the urn room in Prometheus. That reacted with the air when the door was opened.
Thing is, in Covenant the black goo needs some way to move through the air. Liquid cant just move on its own. Both movies shows us swarms of something flying through the air. I have read both the Alien Engineers and the Covenant script leaked yesterday and they both describe insects up close but we never go to see that in the actual swarms scenes.
I guess this is just Scott wanting to be vague and not tell us exactly whatis going on. It seems we are supposed to come to the conclusions that the goo converts its victims tissue into insects that fly around and infect other victims.
Youre welcome Ingeniero ;)
As for the Graphic of the System.... i am not sure where it is. the Draft by Logan posted yesterday does suggest the Covenant Ship was some 246? or so Light Years from Earth when it intercepted the Transmission from Dr Shaw etc. But as we dont have any departure date for when the Covenant left Earth we cant be sure of the Speed of the Covenant.. because if the draft had mentioned they had been traveling for say 2 years and then the jump to Planet 4 was 7 weeks then we could estimate that Planet 4 would be about 260-265LY away give or take... but with no date for when the mission left we simply cant be sure... if we did have a date or departure or how many years they traveled for example if it was 2 years and the distance given in Logans Draft is correct then we could estimate that Origae-6 would be say about 1160LY from Earth. But as we dont have ANY Data as far as time traveled by the time the Covenant encountered the Neutrino Burst its hard to say.
So all i can make out is that this System has a very Earth like Star and 5 Planets, and that Paradise is the 4th from the Sun, but one of the Planets has a elliptical orbit and so this Planet could at times be 3rd closest and others 4th/5th.
For a lot of people who come on sites like this, then indeed a 3 hour movie would be fine... but i think FOX are not pitching their movies to the Franchise Fans alone.... not the die hard fanbase.
As this would only account to a certain % of potential Revenue.. and so this is why FOX prefer to stick to a lower screen time so that more casual and general public would potentially invest into seeing a movie at the Box Office.
What is worse for those disappointed at a lack of longer cuts, is it appears as with Prometheus, we will get NO Extended or Directors Cut of Alien Covenant.
The Problem now comes with the Frame-work from Alien Covenant to ALIEN and how this would have been done in TWO movies... and if FOX are concerned about doing a TWO Part Prequel to ALIEN... and having the next one also disappoint... leaving them on a Cliff Hanger where they have to continue with the 3rd and connecting Alien:* Prequel movie.
Here is the Points that would be played out so we can assume, but its a case of which of these we do not need to directly cover.
*David is now in control of the Ship, he has a Plan and Agenda that involves creating a Army of Alien Xenomorph Eggs. He only has 2 Face Huggers and nearly 2000 Colonist and 1000 Embryos (Human? or Animals?) So there has to be some Process of getting from 2 Face Huggers to Thousands of Eggs.
*David is off to Origae-6 where all clues seem to point to this place being uninhabited and the Covenant Colonist would be the first to set foot on such a World.... this Journey is 7.5 years. Does David Initiate his Plan to create a Xeno Army while on board the Covenant with all those Colonist? But then why head to Origae-6 and then its a case of what Wheels in Motion does David start with his Plans and do we need to see what David alone is up to during the 7.5 year trip?
*David has contacted the Weyland Yutani Company, they are aware of what he is doing and where he is heading, its thus likely they will indeed send a Intercept Mission to arrive at Origae-6
*The Engineers will arrive to discover Planet 4/Paradise Decimated, the questions are how much are they aware of the LV-223 Outpost and Black Goo and we can assume they will find out the Bombardment Ship Originated from LV-223 and Humans had been involved... but do they go to Earth or LV-223? Its likely at some point they intercept David and his Eggs he creates from the Colonist of the Covenant.. but then its a case of HOW do these Engineers know where David is heading? And will we need to see the Engineers arrive at Planet 4/ Paradise and how much do we need to see of what they find?
*All these things must come together to drive us to a point where a Engineer Ship is loaded with Thousands of Davids Xenomorph Eggs and ends up on LV-426 and then HOW/WHY does the Engineers Ship or David end up from Origae-6 to then being so close to LV-223
Such a Series of Plot Points would need TWO movies to do Justice as there is just so much to fit into SINGLE Direct Prequel to Alien, unless a lot is taken as a Aftermath just as we skipped past what ever happened in the 10 years between Prometheus and Alien Covenant.. and only loosely getting answers and a limited time dedicated to these.
@Yog Sothoth
I can fully understand why some may want a more simple kind of movie, a more direct connection to ALIEN and not touching on the Philosophical Themes, Creation Themes and whole David Arc as well as the ambiguity.
For some this stuff is great.... for many its one of the reasons people just could not Understand Prometheus, its a movie that is not straight forward if you only see it a few times or with a narrow view.... its a movie that requires more viewings and taking into account all sorts of extras and other pieces of clues and information like Viral Sites to make better sense.
Sadly not every person will invest all that effort to just maybe make the movies plot something they can better understand.
This whole Plot/Angle and Objective/Theme of Prometheus is something different to the Straight up more Spoon Fed Elements of the Alien Franchise and its Alien Horror => Alien Action => Alien Horror = Alien Action kind of route.
Prometheus was different because they decided to give us something different that opens up a way to explore something more than just HOW/WHY/WHEN and WHERE the Xenomorph was created etc. Hence Prometheus was Born out of what was Alien Engineers which was pretty much more in line with Alien movies.
so it was a Persudo Prequel of sorts yet ALIEN/ALIENS Fans in General expected more of a Prequel... the Space Jockey Mystery was to be explored but it appears the Franchise Fans are more concerned with he Xenomorph.
And so indeed Prometheus and its themes and ambiguity did not cater to the expectations of kind of flick that a lot of the Franchise Fans expected... and then if we take the General Public then with these a higher % would also not get into or understand or invest seeing a movie like Prometheus, if they dont get it after 1-2 viewings they are not likely to do some Homework and look at all other Material and then come back to Prometheus and see if they can grasp it better.
I think Alien Covenant will make some fans go and see Prometheus again or for the first time...
But i think the aim from now on will not be about the Black Goo, it will now be about those Face Huggers and how they can lead to Thousands of Xenomorph Eggs in the more simplest and straightforwards way.
I am concerned this route would be a Face Hugger + Daniels = Egg Laying or Egg Morphing Xenomorph.
#3 on iTunes:
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I think this is just another direction they had taken that has ruffled the feathers of Alien and Aliens fans... some was disappointed and some evern upset at Prometheus showing us the whole Engineers as Space Jockey/Creators Curve-ball, i can see how David creating the Xenomorph is also something that some are not keen on.
Right now it does seem RS has been heading towards the Xenomorph being Davids Creation, and i think RS has come under fire for changing this direction to this from Alien/Aliens fans and even Prometheus fans... and also Prometheus fans for basically changing what a Prometheus 2 would have been to become a more Alien/Aliens Friendly Fanbase Flick.. of getting back to the Xenomorph Origins in a more direct kind of way.
So when Faced with having to answer the Space Jockey and Derelict in a more Direct and Chronological way so no Flash-backs it then opened the event to be something set AFTER Prometheus for Certain and Ridley Scott just felt the whole Creation vs Creator and then Sub-create themselves Arc of David is something he wanted to carry over from Prometheus.
The Question now is does RS stick to his Guns?
Or does the influence of the Fans, that made FOX/RS reconsider and give the Fans Aliens... does FOX/RS now take into acount these Fans again and Change that David created the Xenomorph? There are some fans who are not even pleased at all with the Movie being around the Engineers, or David or Dr Shaw.. and they still did not get the movie they wanted as it was based around David.
I just hope FOX does not think that brushing David under the carpet, and then Spoon Feed in a Xenomorph Queen birthed from Daniels is the way forwards... i hope not.
There is no worry about the Space Jockey being a Human/Synthetic as we are getting the Engineers returning in part and so i think its more likely these Engineers discover Davids creation and decide to take the Eggs for themselves.
We still have not yet reached the Bio-Mechanical Atheistic of Alien/Aliens and so it will be interested if RS goes about to Evolve the Xenomorph from Alien Covenant to become more closer to the one in ALIEN and how RS intends to show this.
I love the extended opening David and Weyland scene! That should have been in the film.
Here is a major David quote from the novel, talking to Oram in his lab. It fully explains how the black goo works. Note, no mention of the tiny insect-spores here, just airborne black goo particles -
"How could your body's own immune system possibly defend itself? A genetically engineered counter-virus, for example, or a human body's own white blood cells, would immediately be met by the pathogen adapting itself, to counter the counter, and so on. As a weapon or a method of biological cleansing, it is simply impossible to defend against. The original liquid atomizes to particles when exposed to the air. It then reproduces in whatever host it happens upon, and eventually gives rise to more liquid, which at the approprite time atomizes, and so on and so on, the cycle repeating itself almost endlessly."
The spores-insects from the mutated fungus are very different to the airborne black goo particles we see floating off the Engineer and/or raining down from David's black goo attack in Covenant.
Thanks for your reply.
My original remark about the links being spartan, even more spartan than what we received, is because many of the elements that were added to Covenant after this script was written are about Prometheus connectivity (The Crossing, the depth, though oblique, added to Shaw's arc in other words "the twelve minutes" that Pietro referred to). Essentially, and please respond if I have missed something, because I am not carrying the entire script round in my head, from the real time narrative we lost the protection zone and the neomoprh was extended beyond the 1st Act. Oddly the matters I felt were fresh about the movie the solar sails the early death of Jacob were in this script.
Coming back to this huge point about Engineers Engineering us. They may have viewed LV223 as merely an exercise similar to a recall by a product manufacture of cars. It needs updating that would have been audacious in its simplicity and as David said they made him because we can, why not the Engineers.
It also leaves room for layering because their Engineering went wrong, why? It was a mistake of a Promethean nature and that could have taken us to the next layer. Prometheus:Pandemonium could have been about that revelation and Shaw and Davids fight for survival and the revelation of a hierarchy. Prometheus : Paradise could then have been the final act of understanding and recognition of THE CREATORS.
The other point I liked about this script is it gave Davids reactions to Shaw a more plausible feel. Less love more expediency. The more you big up the love thing, the painting of her in the crossing, the more you hate David which is not a wise move when he is carrying the story, we need to believe he could be redeemed, right now that seems out of the question.
It is the same on Amazon. Good thing.
However, with such cartoon competitors it should be way ahead of the second place.
Who the heck is Hicks?
One of the colonial marines?
