The Engineers' Religion (one spoiler concept inside)

sukkal

MemberOvomorphMay 18, 20124073 Views47 Replies

The [u]spoiler[/u] concept is that I refer to a character from the leaked credits who has [i]not[/i] been seen as such (definitely) in a trailer to far (to my knowledge). It's probably not a big spoiler if you've been here for more than a week, but I wanted to put up this warning... : : : : Overall, I feel that BigDave's analysis in [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/4717]THIS TOPIC[/url] of the role of the Sacrifice Engineer is probably spot on. My only lingering doubt comes from the fact that IF the Engineer were to BE sacrificED, then in "proper" English I would expect his credit to read "[u]Sacrificial[/u] Engineer." So that's why there is a question mark here. Do you feel that that (presumably holographic??) character is closer to Abraham in this scene or to Isaac? There is precedent in franchise canon for both in the xeno behavior. Mammals are sacrificed so that new xenos can be born. And, in [i]Resurrection[/i], two xenos sacrificed another (against its will) so that they could escape their cell. The needs of the many... Do you think the "Sacrifice Engineer" will BE sacrificED, or that we'll see him sacrifice something or someone to someone/thing else? And this is the crux of why I'm posting this. [u]Within the LOGIC of the Engineer culture, why all of the religious iconography in this film?[/u] (I understand why it works for Noomi's character and the rest of us human schmucks watching the film. It's great for advertising, etc... But, [u]how is it justified internally in the STORY of this film[/u]?) Why would a culture capable of and clearly engaged in advanced genetic engineering, interstellar travel, "godlike" powers, etc. have their own religion? And, what is that religion? What dynamic in their culture led to its creation? [url=http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg][img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg[/img][/url] Please hypothesize away. If you have SEEN the film or feel compelled to report word of mouth from others who have, please don't do that here. Please don't [u]spoil[/u] beyond the mention of the character from the film credits. This is about a theoretical philosophical discussion for those of us who don't want to KNOW the answer until we see the film (if it's even in the film). Thx!!

Mostly
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May 18, 2012

Could not a lower life form than us, ask the very same question about why we humans have religion?

Sky
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May 18, 2012

Hope you don't mind me asking questions. Which is the first images scenario? and the last? I am not sure if the second image is lilith. In that case the image on the right should be alien queen or xeno queen hmm?

Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Sky, The first is "original sin". Eve is taking the apple from the serpent/snake in the Bible. There is not necessarily a DIRECT parallel in all of these because I don't know exactly what the [i]Prometheus[/i] images are (yet). The last is a story from early on in the Bible too. The father, Abraham, is told by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to God. The when Abraham is about to take the child's life, an angel comes and stops him. Abraham is deemed worthy of God's special favor because he seemed willing to kill is son for God. A sheep is provided by God/the angel as a substitute. This conveys two points in the story. 1) Abraham will do WHATEVER God says. 2) The religion should not include human sacrifice (à la the Aztecs/Maya) You can click to see a much larger version.

Dave_b
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May 18, 2012

Religion is fundemental to intelligent beings. It is an attempt to explain the unknown. It can be based on sheer speculation or on first hand experience with the unknown or the misunderstood. I see no reason why any species, no matter how evolved (which I do not believe the Engineers to be), wouldn't retain a religion of sorts. The more we learn about our existence the more probable the existence of God appears.....keeping up on Quantum theory lately??

fanboy79
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May 18, 2012

@sky the first image is one of the many depicting the serpent convincing eve to take the fruit from the tree of knowledge also referred to as the tree of life and death/the second image is of abraham sacrificing issaic as had been requested of him by God through an angel whom later stopped him and informed him that it was only a test...or some reference to that

Sky
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May 18, 2012

Thanks @sukkal and @fanboy79 Somehow these images look totally different for me than the original story for me. I guess a minor changes in art could tell a way different story. I am not much into symbolism, it's kind of mystery to me because each interpretation is different and there is no correct answer that way.

Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Dave_b Most of us are probably NOT up on the latest in Quantum theory, though my father-in-law is a physicist at Harvard. We have interesting discussions over dinner. Are you referring to the "Ultimate observer?" Please enlighten us further...

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Sky, But even without "correct" answers, what do you feel the PURPOSE of the religious-y imagery is in the STORY of [i]Prometheus[/i]?

Sky
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May 18, 2012

@Sukkal, I have digged into lot of temples from multiple generations. I have observed that most of the stories in the temple are about the stronger people during that generation. So I expect the same in the temples in prometheus. < spoiler > I guess the stories in the temple of prometheus are going to be the same. I mean it's how these engineers arrived and what they did or what is right and wrong around there. I don't think there will be much graphical display over there if they want to make prometheus 2. < / spoiler >

Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.

aintnozeno
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May 18, 2012

Forgive me, as I have already drummed a few insults on other threads about religion. This one is actually quite interesting. Dave_b's post above is a very intelligent observation, without any stereotypical insults. Well said sir! I think the major problem in discussions such as these, is the misunderstood difference between faith and religion (worship). Two completely different concepts that are often considered the same thing by those who don't know any better. I hope this thread remains civil and continues as is. It should be a good one if it does.

Dave_b
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May 18, 2012

@Sukkal Dinner must be stimulating with your father-in-law (said with my best david-8 impersonation). Yes, the "Ultimate Observer" as indicated by the Holographic principle stemming directly from the latest theoretical frameworks under investigation......we may be a Holographic construct or "Image" if you will, projected onto a 2Dimensional template or surface by some remote entity or causation. If anything remotely like this does in fact have merit, then the concept of a supreme being takes on a whole new level of believability. In fact, a supreme being or creator would seem to be required by physical law!!

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Sky — What is the significance of the GIGANTIC HEAD for you? And do you feel the "Sacrifice Engineer" is more likely to sacrifice something or be sacrificed for some purpose. The fact that he is named "Sacrifice Engineer" and not "Engineer 2" seems to have some import, does it not? I agree with you that the imagery on the ceiling is likely to be fleeting, but the [u]mechanism[/u] to have it up there had to have been very intentionally designed. Was that done by the Engineers that we see in the film or his peers, his ancestors, his god(s)?? All, What [u]normally[/u] goes on in that room (when aliens from Earth aren't showing up) and how did those ceremonies (if they are ceremonies) evolve?

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Dave_b Could the Engineers be at their level of civilization (the one that created this physical "temple" complex and the Juggernaut) without having come to some similar conclusion? And, if so, how does/would SACRIFICE play into that world view? Do they simply feel that the "Ultimate Observer" is a rather nasty entity that likes snuff films?

Dave_b
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May 18, 2012

It seems fairly straightforward that the "Head" (representing us) is a sacrificial figure that is offered up to the Urns, to be infected and transformed for whatever reason. Since it's been their for some time, and the imagery on the ceiling recounts the development of the Xeno, we can assume that the Engineers used our species for Xeno development at some point...either intentional or not!

Sky
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May 18, 2012

I think the sacrificial theory makes sense with some history behind it which we are not aware of right now. I think the imagery that we see are more likely part of their peers rather than their gods.

Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.

Dave_b
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May 18, 2012

Having knowledge and technology does not require a species to respect another. Neither does religion for that matter. Unless they would have actually met the "Ultimate Observer" or in fact BE the UO, there would be no reason to beleive they are civilized or above us on a moral plane. Their religion may indeed require sacrifice for the greater good. Or maybe we pests, are simply useful tools for their needs.

Sky
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May 18, 2012

On that point, I remember reading the notes of one of the professor recently. His notes were about "us" (humans) being simulation run by our own future generations in order to compute the flaws in us in past. Quite a futuristic theory. Not related to this thread but I'll digg that link and maybe we can have discussion on that. Here it is : http://research.lifeboat.com/bostrom.htm and the PDF : http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf

Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

I can't argue. It is ODD to me that the head is that large, then. I would expect more of a Christ-like image with the head hanging down (à la the sacrificial "cargo" of humans from [i]Resurrection[/i]). I am accustomed to the giant icons being images of that/he/her which/who is worshipped, not sacrificed. [img]http://images.lightstalkers.org/images/741629/daibutsu_nara_buddha.jpg[/img] Though this is somewhat of both, huh? I'd never though of it that way: [img]http://www.allpics4u.com/www/slike/place/Statue%20Rio/Statue_Rio8.jpg[/img]

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Sky — That sounds kind of [i]Matrix[/i]-y. I'll have to go read it. Thx.

takka_takka_takka
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May 18, 2012

Religion is silliness made dogma. It is an attempt to explain things beyond your current level of understanding. Humans used to worship the sun, the stars, thunder, etc. Now that we can explain these things scientifically it seems rather silly to have seen them as gods. When a child asks why the sky is blue and a parent says, "Because god made it that way" it is just the parent trying to avoid admitting that they don't know and being to intellectually lazy to investigate the matter. So my feeling is that what we see with the engineer's artwork is not religious in nature, but more historical or memorial. Just because humans tend to put lion statues outside libraries doesn't mean that we think that they are gods. We just think they look cool. Art can and does exist outside a religious context.