The Engineers' Religion (one spoiler concept inside)

sukkal

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The [u]spoiler[/u] concept is that I refer to a character from the leaked credits who has [i]not[/i] been seen as such (definitely) in a trailer to far (to my knowledge). It's probably not a big spoiler if you've been here for more than a week, but I wanted to put up this warning... : : : : Overall, I feel that BigDave's analysis in [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/4717]THIS TOPIC[/url] of the role of the Sacrifice Engineer is probably spot on. My only lingering doubt comes from the fact that IF the Engineer were to BE sacrificED, then in "proper" English I would expect his credit to read "[u]Sacrificial[/u] Engineer." So that's why there is a question mark here. Do you feel that that (presumably holographic??) character is closer to Abraham in this scene or to Isaac? There is precedent in franchise canon for both in the xeno behavior. Mammals are sacrificed so that new xenos can be born. And, in [i]Resurrection[/i], two xenos sacrificed another (against its will) so that they could escape their cell. The needs of the many... Do you think the "Sacrifice Engineer" will BE sacrificED, or that we'll see him sacrifice something or someone to someone/thing else? And this is the crux of why I'm posting this. [u]Within the LOGIC of the Engineer culture, why all of the religious iconography in this film?[/u] (I understand why it works for Noomi's character and the rest of us human schmucks watching the film. It's great for advertising, etc... But, [u]how is it justified internally in the STORY of this film[/u]?) Why would a culture capable of and clearly engaged in advanced genetic engineering, interstellar travel, "godlike" powers, etc. have their own religion? And, what is that religion? What dynamic in their culture led to its creation? [url=http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg][img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg[/img][/url] Please hypothesize away. If you have SEEN the film or feel compelled to report word of mouth from others who have, please don't do that here. Please don't [u]spoil[/u] beyond the mention of the character from the film credits. This is about a theoretical philosophical discussion for those of us who don't want to KNOW the answer until we see the film (if it's even in the film). Thx!!

David 1
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May 18, 2012

good one. Food for thought

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

DAVIS
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May 18, 2012

One engineer running away while the another two chasing him then beheaded him.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

[quote=takka_takka_takka][i]When a child asks why the sky is blue and a parent says, "Because god made it that way" it is just the parent trying to avoid admitting that they don't know and being to intellectually lazy to investigate the matter.[/i][/quote] Valid. When I was 3-y-o I asked by mother, "What do stars eat." It's recorded in my baby book. She apologized to me as an adult saying she should have pulled out the Encyclopedia and explained nuclear fusion to me. BUT, that doesn't answer the main topic of this thread. I can buy ALL of the imagery as art, without associating human ideas of religion and superior beings to it, but that word SACRIFICE (so overt, so specific) that hangs in the air like a putrid odor or delightful fragrance (depending on your point of view). It's the combination of all these things (imagery and language) that encouraged me to start this discussion.

Dave_b
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May 18, 2012

Takka Takka Takka, religion may or may not be involved...they are not a pre-requisite for the "Head" being in the temple. Religion stems from a deep seated part of our minds to explain the unexplainable to a large extent I agree. To dismiss it out of hand however shows a certain recklessness to your exposition regarding the intellectual capacity of person(s) Religious. More than a few highly regarded intellectuals and scientists were and are "Religious". They are not mutually exclusive! The lions you mentioned did not have Urns placed around them I presume? Perhaps the context of the art or artifact tells us as much as the figure or idol in question. We are all "Religious" to a certain extent, in that we believe in doing or believing in things that make us feel comfortable and safe and in control. I might add that when you eventually find yourself fading out of this realm and into that "unknown adventure" beyond, you will be confronted with the concept of an afterlife head on....and it may require you to admit you are religious afterall. Or not:O)

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Davis AHA!! [b]Yes[/b], but that's TECHNICALLY a "Sacrifi[u]cial[/u] Engineer". Were they just not careful with the titles? Very possible. But, WHY, was he being sacrificed? Was that [u]ceremonial[/u], or [u]necessary[/u] for some practical purpose? If he had committed a crime, we would not call that "sacrifice." It would be some form of "punishment." Perhaps he had to be sacrificed because he became (accidentally) infected by something? An Engineer version of "Holloway syndrome," perhaps? I don't have an answer or an agenda. I really do want to think this through thoroughly because the imagery coupled with the word is very interesting to me. I never would have thought of the owner of the head in the scanner as "the sacrifice." Thanks for that. :•)

Jason8
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May 18, 2012

It seems to me that Shaw is searching for the creator to validate her faith and Halloway is searching for the creator to invalidate religion. They might both be right and wrong. If they find that man was created by the SJ or another more advance race they have found what they ware looking for. It is all a matter of perception. In any case the ultimate answer to the question, "is there a god?" is still not answered. They might find out who created mankind but the answer to who created our creators is still open.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

[quote=Dave_b][i]We are all "Religious" to a certain extent, in that we believe in doing or believing in things that make us feel comfortable and safe and in control.[/i][/quote] B R I L L I A N T ! The etymology is debated, but it seems very plausible to me that [i]re[u]lig[/u]io[/i] is just that "[u]link[/u]" to "that which makes us feel comfortable and in control." Oh, if only it were broadly understood that way in all cultures, but that's another topic... Back on track... [quote=Dave_b][i]...when you eventually find yourself fading out of this realm and into that "unknown adventure" beyond, you will be confronted with the concept of an afterlife head on....and it may require you to admit you are religious afterall.[/i][/quote] The situation that the "last Engineer" is experiencing here on LV-223 does seem to REEK of some kind of "end of days" scenario. Is he LITERALLY the very last of his species? [Again, if you KNOW unequivocally that that is the case in the story line, please, do not answer.]

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Jason8 I completely agree with you. But, the main reason I'm asking the big picture question(s) of this topic, is because I can totally see the "religious iconography" of the Temple in the film being relevant to both Shaw's and Holloway's "personal journeys." However, in the fictional context of the story. That iconography (at least the Head and presumably the xeno-esque imagery) is already there, whether they show up or not. So it must play into the Engineers’ world in some way, regardless of the human presence. takka has suggested that perhaps it's just art and that the Engineers’ don't attach any "religious" or "spiritual" or "supernatural" or "mythic" symbolism to it at all. Do you see it as pointing towards something that we would generically call "religion" or not? Is it a place of WORSHIP? TRADITION? ENTERTAINMENT?

Newtella
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May 18, 2012

I haven't read all the posts here yet but perhaps what Ridley Scott's really banking on to be the most scary thing in this film is how science & religion finally merged into one thing that went terribly, terribly wrong.

Newtella
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May 18, 2012

I just hope RS doesn't over-Christianize whatever religious symbology he uses in this sci-fi film. We already have [i]Evangelion[/i] for that. In regards to Eve & the serpent story... that's an Abrahamic gloss over several thousand years of Pagan / Goddess spirituality that preceded before. One of the oldest statues (7.5 million B.C.E.) in a meditative pose was found on Crete, in the form of a woman-snake. Make of that what you will. Hiisssssssss....

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

7.5 MILLION B.C.E ?? I'd easily buy 7.5 THOUSAND BCE, but million? Their carbon-dater is broken. [quote=Newtella][i]...perhaps what Ridley Scott's really banking on to be the most scary thing in this film is how science & religion finally merged into one thing that went terribly, terribly wrong.[/i][/quote] Now that is a really interesting idea. I would like to see that fleshed out. Something tells me that this film is not quite that cerebral, though. I would love to be pleasantly surprised. I just heard in the status updates that there are "angels" singing on the soundtrack, though. You many not be getting what you're wishing for, Newt, on the "not over-Christianizing" front. If you have not ready [url=http://www.alphabetvsgoddess.com/]The Alphabet vs. the Goddess[/url], you might find it interesting. It's controversial and a bit whacky, but very worth reading. Shlain lives here in the greater Bay Area as far as I know.

artyoh
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May 18, 2012

The murals apparently tell some kind of story. That's a great device for exposition, but who are the stories intended for? Human public spaces are often decorated with art works illustrating different aspects of our culture, technology, etc. It could simply be analogous to that. On the other hand, it could be intended for [i]other[/i] visitors......perhaps a number of different visitors. I'll have more respect for the Engineers if they've been expecting us, than I will if they're shocked to see us show up on their doorstep.

artyoh
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May 18, 2012

There's no way Ridley Scott would be stupid enough to "overchristianize" this movie. No way no how.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@artyoh I don't knnoooowww... ?? abordoli said there are angels signing on the souuundtraaaaack... My question about the murals is if they pick up on WHO is walking in and "change" based on targeted messaging for that group/individual.

artyoh
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May 18, 2012

@sukkal Yes, that would be the more efficient, possibly cooler way to handle it, but there are apparently multiple temples........ Angels singing on the soundtrack?!? Like.....he[i] saw[/i] angels?!?! I"m thinking probably not. Massed voices singing in chorus, are often used in a non-religious context on soundtracks.

Newtella
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May 18, 2012

@artyoh: I agree that it's most likely if RS plays the religious angle, he will keep it as broad as possible. @sukkal: Ugh, The Alphabet & the Goddess sucks as the author clearly did not do his homework. He posits that matrilineal / Goddess - centered cultures did not have written language and that's simply not true. Early Vulture & Snake Goddess-ruled Egypt alreadly had its hieroglyphics in place, Crete certainly had it's cuneiform writing, as did ancient Goddess-centered Babylon before it became more God-centered. Aargh, don't get me started on that condescending asshole...

abordoli
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May 18, 2012

There are some tracks in the soundtrack where, instead of strings, they have use an angelic-choir type instrument. In addition, some of the soundtrack reminds me of soundtracks from some 60s and 70s movies. I forget what the movie was called, but when I hear it, it brings up that imagery with no choice of my own like a key to a lock. There certainly is some classical sounding stuff in the soundtrack.

sukkal
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May 18, 2012

@Newtella —, Well, I'm glad I prefaced my statement about being worth reading with [i]controversial[/i] and [i]whacky[/i]. You must admit that excepting Hatshepsut, most of the pharaohs were males... but, let's let that one go. ;•) Speaking of Crete, last night I discovered something VERY interesting about the writing in the film that I will post eventually. I happened upon it in this book: [img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/R-T-P.jpg[/img] /offtopic @artyoh, I was joking (a bit) about the angels. That is how abordoli originally described the singing. I do feel that one of the "controversial draw" factors for this (of which Ridley may be very conscious) is what Shaw endures as a religious person (at least going in; who KNOWS about coming out). You must admit, it would seem that it has parallels in [i]Job[/i].

Newtella
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May 18, 2012

@sukkal: [offtopic] To clarify, I was talking about pre-dynastic Egypt. Before the Pharoah system, early Egypt was a lot more egalitarian and had more surviving Goddess figurines than other relics. I'm interested in that 'Reading the Past' book. Thanks for that! [/offtopic] In Prometheus, will we see a stately statue of a space saint wearing a facehugger? Oh, I will die laughing if we do... Sorry artyoh, that was purely a fantasy image.

artyoh
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May 18, 2012

It would be only natural for some religious discussion in a movie where the premise is that we meet our makers, but I don't think it will have a Christian POV. To be honest, the whole Von Daniken aspect of this project makes the bile rise in my stomach, but since it's a [i]dark[/i] take on an "origin story" it won't be nearly as lame as the notion that aliens came here in the past to teach us how to pile up rocks......apparently, just to prove that they were once here.