Forum Topic
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:38 PMThe [u]spoiler[/u] concept is that I refer to a character from the leaked credits who has [i]not[/i] been seen as such (definitely) in a trailer to far (to my knowledge). It's probably not a big spoiler if you've been here for more than a week, but I wanted to put up this warning...
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Overall, I feel that BigDave's analysis in [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/4717]THIS TOPIC[/url] of the role of the Sacrifice Engineer is probably spot on. My only lingering doubt comes from the fact that IF the Engineer were to BE sacrificED, then in "proper" English I would expect his credit to read "[u]Sacrificial[/u] Engineer." So that's why there is a question mark here. Do you feel that that (presumably holographic??) character is closer to Abraham in this scene or to Isaac? There is precedent in franchise canon for both in the xeno behavior. Mammals are sacrificed so that new xenos can be born. And, in [i]Resurrection[/i], two xenos sacrificed another (against its will) so that they could escape their cell. The needs of the many...
Do you think the "Sacrifice Engineer" will BE sacrificED, or that we'll see him sacrifice something or someone to someone/thing else? And this is the crux of why I'm posting this. [u]Within the LOGIC of the Engineer culture, why all of the religious iconography in this film?[/u] (I understand why it works for Noomi's character and the rest of us human schmucks watching the film. It's great for advertising, etc... But, [u]how is it justified internally in the STORY of this film[/u]?)
Why would a culture capable of and clearly engaged in advanced genetic engineering, interstellar travel, "godlike" powers, etc. have their own religion? And, what is that religion? What dynamic in their culture led to its creation?
[url=http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg][img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg[/img][/url]
Please hypothesize away.
If you have SEEN the film or feel compelled to report word of mouth from others who have, please don't do that here. Please don't [u]spoil[/u] beyond the mention of the character from the film credits. This is about a theoretical philosophical discussion for those of us who don't want to KNOW the answer until we see the film (if it's even in the film). Thx!!
47 Replies
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 5:32 PM7.5 MILLION B.C.E ??
I'd easily buy 7.5 THOUSAND BCE, but million?
Their carbon-dater is broken.
[quote=Newtella][i]...perhaps what Ridley Scott's really banking on to be the most scary thing in this film is how science & religion finally merged into one thing that went terribly, terribly wrong.[/i][/quote]
Now that is a really interesting idea. I would like to see that fleshed out. Something tells me that this film is not quite that cerebral, though. I would love to be pleasantly surprised.
I just heard in the status updates that there are "angels" singing on the soundtrack, though. You many not be getting what you're wishing for, Newt, on the "not over-Christianizing" front.
If you have not ready [url=http://www.alphabetvsgoddess.com/]The Alphabet vs. the Goddess[/url], you might find it interesting. It's controversial and a bit whacky, but very worth reading. Shlain lives here in the greater Bay Area as far as I know.
artyoh
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 5:42 PMThe murals apparently tell some kind of story. That's a great device for exposition, but who are the stories intended for? Human public spaces are often decorated with art works illustrating different aspects of our culture, technology, etc. It could simply be analogous to that. On the other hand, it could be intended for [i]other[/i] visitors......perhaps a number of different visitors.
I'll have more respect for the Engineers if they've been expecting us, than I will if they're shocked to see us show up on their doorstep.
artyoh
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 5:44 PMThere's no way Ridley Scott would be stupid enough to "overchristianize" this movie. No way no how.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 5:48 PM
@artyoh
I don't knnoooowww... ??
abordoli said there are angels signing on the souuundtraaaaack...
My question about the murals is if they pick up on WHO is walking in and "change" based on targeted messaging for that group/individual.
artyoh
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 6:02 PM@sukkal
Yes, that would be the more efficient, possibly cooler way to handle it, but there are apparently multiple temples........
Angels singing on the soundtrack?!? Like.....he[i] saw[/i] angels?!?!
I"m thinking probably not. Massed voices singing in chorus, are often used in a non-religious context on soundtracks.
Newtella
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 6:20 PM@artyoh: I agree that it's most likely if RS plays the religious angle, he will keep it as broad as possible.
@sukkal: Ugh, The Alphabet & the Goddess sucks as the author clearly did not do his homework. He posits that matrilineal / Goddess - centered cultures did not have written language and that's simply not true. Early Vulture & Snake Goddess-ruled Egypt alreadly had its hieroglyphics in place, Crete certainly had it's cuneiform writing, as did ancient Goddess-centered Babylon before it became more God-centered. Aargh, don't get me started on that condescending asshole...
abordoli
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 6:29 PMThere are some tracks in the soundtrack where, instead of strings, they have use an angelic-choir type instrument. In addition, some of the soundtrack reminds me of soundtracks from some 60s and 70s movies. I forget what the movie was called, but when I hear it, it brings up that imagery with no choice of my own like a key to a lock. There certainly is some classical sounding stuff in the soundtrack.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 6:51 PM@Newtella —,
Well, I'm glad I prefaced my statement about being worth reading with [i]controversial[/i] and [i]whacky[/i].
You must admit that excepting Hatshepsut, most of the pharaohs were males... but, let's let that one go. ;•) Speaking of Crete, last night I discovered something VERY interesting about the writing in the film that I will post eventually. I happened upon it in this book:
[img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/R-T-P.jpg[/img]
/offtopic
@artyoh,
I was joking (a bit) about the angels. That is how abordoli originally described the singing. I do feel that one of the "controversial draw" factors for this (of which Ridley may be very conscious) is what Shaw endures as a religious person (at least going in; who KNOWS about coming out). You must admit, it would seem that it has parallels in [i]Job[/i].
Newtella
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 7:10 PM@sukkal: [offtopic] To clarify, I was talking about pre-dynastic Egypt. Before the Pharoah system, early Egypt was a lot more egalitarian and had more surviving Goddess figurines than other relics. I'm interested in that 'Reading the Past' book. Thanks for that! [/offtopic]
In Prometheus, will we see a stately statue of a space saint wearing a facehugger? Oh, I will die laughing if we do...
Sorry artyoh, that was purely a fantasy image.
artyoh
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 7:18 PMIt would be only natural for some religious discussion in a movie where the premise is that we meet our makers, but I don't think it will have a Christian POV. To be honest, the whole Von Daniken aspect of this project makes the bile rise in my stomach, but since it's a [i]dark[/i] take on an "origin story" it won't be nearly as lame as the notion that aliens came here in the past to teach us how to pile up rocks......apparently, just to prove that they were once here.
Dave_b
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 8:31 PMEvery intelligent species will have a motivation. Some may be benevolent, while others will be hostile. Some will be ambivolent and opportunistic. We might even be ignored by those that consider us to be nothing more than anecdotal to more worthy lifeforms. Many possibilities exist....some pleasant and some so full of horror that death would seem a pleasant alternative. Just sayin:O)
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 10:45 PM@artyoh —
Kudos for effective use of bile in a post! But it's not just piling up rocks, you forgot about all of the precision slicing of the rocks and the fact that the rocks, once sliced and piled, produce "vibrational energies" that possibly "did stuff."
I agree that IF the Engineers do have some kind of "religion" and the writing everywhere makes us privy to the nature of that through David, or if the frescoes 'speak' to it at all, that it will likely not skew particularly Judeo-christian.
However, 'Elizabeth Mary' Shaw could not be pointing much more strongly towards a strong association with the New Testament. I realize that her character is the daughter of a priest/minister and that easily explains this factor. But, the mural’s/fresco’s being on the ceiling of the chamber(s?), surely must have been intentionally designed to be situationally evocative of holy human architecture.
@Dave_b —
In this—for Prometheus—I can't get by the "head" factor. The head is THE most iconic image in this so far (that I have seen). It is OUR head and it is the head of the Engineers. There clearly is some level of "interest" from their (civilization’s) side towards us. I have to say that the film will be very unsatisfactory for me personally in this area—their interest in us— if this is not touched on at all. Poor artyoh up there is suffering elevated bile levels over this "playing god" thing. At least we need to get [u]some[/u] kind of satisfaction. Clearly it's going to skew VERY dark and utterly lacking in beneficence, but anything, no matter the tone, can have it's logic, subtlety, and mystique.
So, All —
Is the "sacrifice" in this ritualistic (based on dogma), or pragmatic (to prevent the spread of some sort of 'infection'), or something else?
Who has an opinion or hunch?
Newtella
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 11:40 PMI know this sounds very idealistic but I like to think our system is protected somehow by benevolent space traveling races.
Otherwise, the technologically-superior ones with malevolent intentions would have enslaved us already a long time ago.
I used to work at Lockheed. I know things. I've seen thi -- gaaAAK! *thud*
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-19-2012 10:55 AM@Newt —
I think that was on [i]Ancient Aliens[/i], Episode 17.
Newtella
MemberOvomorphMay-19-2012 1:46 PMReally? I've never seen that series. Is it any good or totally hokey?
I've tended to shy away from The "History" Channel when it became too obvious their programming had too much of a pro-corporate ("Hershey's thru the years") and pro-Christian slant...
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-21-2012 10:11 PMThere's NOTHING X-tian about [i]Ancient Aliens[/i]. It's very [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Däniken]von Däniken[/url]/[url=http://www.sitchin.com/]Sitchin[/url]-esque.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-22-2012 10:40 PM
POST SCRIPT:
Today I discovered (by accident) that there is an answer about the meaning of the word "SACRIFICE." You can find it in the spoiler section or you can PM me if you want to know before seeing the film.
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