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Gorman
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 3:34 PMUsing logic I am going to break down some of the questions in prometheus. Long post but bear with me, its easy to read and broken down into sentences.
What we know:
1
We know that the derelict on LV-426 happened before the Prometheus film, because the 30 odd years between films is not enough time for the Space Jockey remains to fossilize into the chair (quote from Dallas in Alien). Therefore this new proto-Alien in Prometheus is not the Queen who laid the eggs on the derelict.
2
We can assume from Alien, that the eggs on the derelict produced a face hugger which killed the Space Jockey in the chair.
3
We can assume that the Aliens in the rest of the Alien films 1,2,3 (which all stem from the derelict on LV-426) come from the same black goo which we see in Prometheus.
4
Since our DNA is the same as the Space Jockeys (from Prometheus), they have the same reproductive process and therefore could not have laid the eggs on the derelict.
5
In Prometheus, there are no eggs to be seen. Just ampules of black goo. But, the black goo, when used in a reproductive process, can create facehuggers (albeit in different varieties- much larger ones come from humans it seems). This tomb is therefore the stage BEFORE the eggs we see in Alien, Aliens.
6
Space Jockeys created the black goo. Mentioned a few times in the film.
7
Xenomorphs "hatched" out of Space Jockeys and neary killed them off, roughly 2000 years ago.
8
Xenomorphs originate in the temple (assumed by Xeno mural, black goo containing their DNA). Therefore derelict crashed before SJs were last seen in the temple. So derelict over 2000 years old.
9
The Queen in Aliens originates from LV-426 derelict somehow.
What we can work out from what we know:
1
The tomb seen in Prometheus is a shrine for the origin of the Xenomorph. There are hundreds of Ampules containing their origins of life (when mixed in a reproducitve system).
The Xenomorph Mural on the wall backs this up - to signal that the black goo in the ampules creates Xenomorphs . Maybe the Space Jockeys worshipped it. Maybe it was a warning (this fits with the warning signal coming from LV-426 in Alien). Also fits with the skull on the top of the outside of the temple
2
Shaw was growing a facehugger in her womb, after mating with "Black Goo", as that is the human reproductive cycle. However, a lot of creatures have a different reproductive cycle and lay eggs.
Therefore, it would not necessarily have been a queen to lay the eggs on the derelict. We can assume that an infected "EGG LAYING" reproducing organism COULD have layed the facehugger eggs on the derelict.
This could not have been the Space Jockeys (assumption 4) so there is another creature involved somewhere in the journey from Black Goo - Face hugger Eggs.
3
Xenomorphs can start WITHOUT a queen to lay eggs. Proof is that scene at the end of Prometheus where a new "Space Jockey Xeno" emerges.
Quote from Hudson in Aliens "They are like a Bee Hive with a Queen running the show"
Quote from Wikipedia on how Queen bees develop.
"The young queen larva develops differently because it is more heavily fed royal jelly, a protein-rich secretion from glands on the heads of young workers. If not for being heavily fed royal jelly, the queen larva would have developed into a regular worker bee."
So basically in the Aliens film, many terraformers obviously visited the derelict, became infected so there were hundreds of Xenos running around in the complex. They were able to create the hive and then create a Queen themselves, as described in the quote above. There was no special Queen egg or anything.
4
Therefore, the ONLY OPTION, is that the Space Jockeys infected a NEW "egg laying" species with the black goo. One to help them produce Xenomorphs. This layed the original eggs on the derelict. The Xeno mural shows that SJs know what will hatch from the eggs. Therefore can only assume eggs were laid under control from the "NEW" species, then they were flying it to somewhere (Earth?, as suggested in the films, or maybe a previous creation of theirs).
5
If Space Jockeys can reproduce like humans (same DNA), then they could have produced the Xenos which killed them off in the temple. The only other option is that other non egg laying creature (no empty eggs are seen in the tomb) was infected, mated and then reproduced, producing their form of face hugger, which in turn infected SJ's and wiped them out.
All in all, Prometheus fits in quite nicely with the Alien films.
New mysteries from the film itself which don't need to tie into Alien films:
Why the SJ's decided to create us and ultimately destroy us? Heavily signposted for the sequel.
30 Replies
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azalard
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 3:52 PMSo, are you saying that those eggs on the derelict managed to remain alive and in viable condition for [i]2000 years???[/i] Even if they had been laid shortly before the events in Alien, does that mean that the thing that laid them had somehow survived in the derelict that long? It makes sense, but at the same time, it doesn't.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6AXTUADFfw8/Tq4tJY1lxWI/AAAAAAAAB-g/Luqnra38nRE/s640/aliens_face_hugger_free_hugs.jpg[/img]
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Gorman
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 3:56 PMwell yeah, for 2 reasons:
1
There was a thin layer of blue mist over the eggs. We can assume that this created an atmosphere which kept the eggs incubated safely.
2
There was a delay of over 50 years between Alien and Aliens, and the eggs were alive the whole of the time during this period. If they can survive 50 years, why not 2,000? 50 years is still a long time for an egg to remain in viable condition....
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Wintermute
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 4:09 PMI think you go off the rails with assumption 2. Why not the reverse? Why not have whatever came out of the SJ be what laid the eggs on the ship? Also, are we sure about #3?
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Gorman
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 4:22 PMIt is possible, but unlikely.
1
The only Alien Queen we ever see hatching is the one from Ripley at the end of Alien 3. That's a pretty small probability.
2
The eggs are neatly arranged on the derelict in what, to me anyway, looks so blatantly like a storage chamber. This also fits in with the Ampules stored on the SJ Spaceship at the end of Prometheus.
3
Fits in with the "destroy to create" idea from David, that the eggs were laid under control from the SJ's and were being transported somewhere.
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mountain1985
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 4:44 PMsorry theres just alot of assumptions here without anything significant to back them up. there was alot of thought put into the xeno's life cycle to by giger and scott in the first place to make something plausible. we dont always see all the details of that in the film but the commentaries and the comics/novels expand on this in greater detail. read "earth war" of the comics if you get a chance.
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Gorman
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 4:57 PMcheers will give it a read.
one thing though, did Giger or Ridley have any say in the comics? were the filmakers just going on the previous films or the comics as well?
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Darwin
MemberOvomorphJun-05-2012 6:26 PMMy explanation is that the derelict in Alien is one of the remaining ships on LV-223. After the events in Prometheus, either the proto-Xenomorph we see at the last scene or the large octopus infect another surviving engineer located inside another ship. The enginner wakes up, takes off with the ship and crashes on LV-426 while a xenomorph bursts out of his chest. The xenomorph and her descendants lay down all the eggs that the Nostromo crew finds in the chamber 30 years later. Dallas mistakenly assummes that the SJ is millions of years old and fossilized. Simply the exoskeleton that fuses in the chair makes it look like it is fosilized.
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BigDave
MemberDeaconJun-05-2012 6:56 PM@Gorman and @Darwin
Both your cases could be logical...
Thats why Ridley left the movie open.....
Showing the Engineer at the end geting into a Derelict and taking off before chest bursting would have eliminated Gormans theory which is also one of mine....
Having a scene that gave clear indication that the Xeno killed the Engineers would eliminate Darwins idea....
Thus the way the movie went, leaves both as posibilities and if Ridley gets his way, we may not know which of those two or indeed any other explanation untill maybe Prometheus 3...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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mountain1985
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 1:59 AMi hope that isn't the case because then whats the point of the first 2 films if they are just there to support a 3rd one? they wouldn't stand on there own as a good piece of cinema and would just be forgotten. Scotts taking a BIG gamble the 2nd or 3rd film is planned to solve all the riddles.
Gorman, i would have thought the directors/writters prob aren't aware of half the comics. I'm a huge geek on the subject myself and I only have some of them. Still though they did have alot of input from giger and other sources. A large proportion of the comics are considered inline with the universe so it would be a shame to disregard them all.
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mazle87
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 4:09 AMheres my take on the black goo and the xeno connection what if the xenos werent engineered but rather back engineered like a natural species that the engineers wanted to make more compact and controllable (the black goo) this would explain why the lv 426 ship had a fossilized space jockey and eggs instead of ampules because they hadnt perfected the virus yet all they had was a way to keep the naturally queen laid eggs in stasis. so the lv 426 ship was ancient and not related to prometheus at all. black goo is the final result a virus based off of the xeno dna.
one more thing the reason for all the mutations in this movie is because the virus wants to get back to its original form of life ( first the squid baby then the xeno) naturally (shaw and halloway mating). this is just what i gathered from the movie so there are definate connections one thing can be certain though prometheus is not how the xenomorph formed my evidence is the murial and the fossilized space jockey because obviously 30 years is not enough time to fossilize we can deduce that the xenomorph in the form and life cycle we know and love is at least as old as the lv 426 ship and was not created through the evnts of prometheus... ne thoughts?
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Gorman
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 4:19 AMMazle87 - Yeah I agree with your views on the age of the Xenomorph. How could the first ever one come out of the engineer at the end of Prometheus, when the engineers obviously knew they existed already because there was a Xeno mural on the tomb wall. This is also backed up by the dead bodies of engineers with holes in their chests which were 2000 years old.
Darwin - this is the reason why I don't think your theory is correct.
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Gorman
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 4:21 AMMazle87 - maybe the eggs were the original, but the engineers decided they were too dangerous to transport around like that after what happened to the derelict on LV-426. So they decided to use the ampules instead and wait for the intended subjects to reproduce facehuggers.
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mazle87
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 4:38 AMgorman i agree with everything youve gone over except i believe the xenos are a naturally occuring form of life that the engineers were using as weapons and then decided to develope them further into a virus i also think that the queens do occur through random face huggers. this is purely speculation but maybe the huggers have more than one embryo each and once a queen has hatched she can signal the rest of the brood chemicaly not to use any more roayal embryos just a thought. i do agree with everything else youve outlined and i dont think youve assumed to much assumption is the best part of such a wonderfully convoluded story and mythos!!!!
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mazle87
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 4:41 AMgorman your second reply is exactly my take on it they had to many mishaps and decided to refine there favorite devestation device!!
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mazle87
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 4:58 AMalso if you think about it logically the ship on lv 426 is still the only direct link between alien and prometheus because not only did that ship show us the xeno for the first time but also the event of the captain being overrun may have been what led to the refining of the xenomorph (into the black goo) thus being the only real direct link between the 2
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CerynJrey
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 5:27 AMI...actually didn't think it was ANY of those things.
I thought it was...fairly obvious what happened in "Prometheus" :
The Engineers died 2000 years old.
Milburn states "They're all opened up from the inside- like it exploded."
(TOTALLY stealing Dallas's line from Alien)
They were being CHASED by something.
The 3 empty Stasis Chambers had holes in them.
Seemed...TOTALLY obvious that the Xenomorphs were created long, LONG ago.
And they are what killed all the dead Engineers.
And the Derelict in Alien was one of the ships that left LV-223- but like the others, he was infected, and chestbursted.
But his cargo stayed in stasis, in the blue mist- reacting when broken, just like the Ampoules overflowing when touched.
So...yeah. Seemed obvious- the Black Goo may or may not be separate, but the Xenomorphs are just an OLD cargo on an OLD ship, that was found 2000 years after the Derelict crashed.
Seemed....VERY obvious. @_@
And the other alien at the end of Prometheus...I...don't know what you're obsessed with IT laying eggs.
Why does anything have to lay eggs? CLEARLY the Engineers can...ENGINEER things, without having to physically LAY the eggs.
Idk. It seemed very straightforward and not-confusing to me.
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CerynJrey
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 5:30 AMAlso, Holloway says, "Nothing but another tomb," when looking at the "Xeno-Mural."
He also sees a chunk of green-glass-rock.
Looks PRETTY similar to the green-glass-jars of black goo inside all the ampoules.
So maybe the goo can ALTER life? Clearly turns worms into penis-snakes, and Fifield into monkey-mutant.
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azalard
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 12:05 PMI saw the film, and all I can say is that I don't think it can successfully stand alone without some sort of a follow-up or sequel, which is what I think RS originally had in mind to do. Whether that ever materializes is yet to be seen.
Honestly, I agree with you guys about the "LV-426" theory in that the derelict there may be more recent than Dallas thought. He said it "looked" fossilized, but that doesn't mean it actually was. He was a "space trucker" captain, and definitely not an expert in xeno-paleontology. Rather, maybe something else occurred to make it look that way.
I would like to think that Shaw flew the other ship, got infected, was forced to land on LV-426, and voilà! You have the premise for the Alien series right there. This would go along ways into explaining why the crew of the Nostromo was pulled out of hyper-sleep to investigate, because maybe the Weyland Corp. had always been looking for Shaw and the ship she took off in.
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polype78
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 1:22 PMIt seems to be obvious, the engineers where planetary terraformers who could create life from goo and process the atmosphere.So if you want a blank template the you send in the ship with the jars of goo and wipe out any simple lifeforms (or advanced) so you can start from fresh.This makes sense because when the prometheus away team get into the temple/terraforming structure they can take their helmets off.They must have engineered the goo to evolve and there you get the genetic variants of the host species (human) in this case.I think that the alien at the end of prometheus was a first generation (or as many people have been saying) a proto xeno. The creature must adapt to its environment and maybe this means it has the ability to mutate into a form that can carry on and wipe the dominant lifeform on the planet it infects.The xenomorph just seems to be a biological weopon that has gotten completely out of control.Like when the holographic ships log shows the engineers running away from something.It seems that the planet was a science base,except the engineers ended up being the experiment instead,with the facehugging worms and weirdo creatures that seem to pop up in the temple. A good film and I think everyone could come up with a million theories,but i reckon its an experiement gone bad, unless the engineers took the DNA from the original Xenomorphs from some planet and tried to make their weapon from them (interesting idea).
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mazle87
MemberOvomorphJun-06-2012 2:37 PMcynjrey thats wat i was saying egg xeno old viral goo new absolutly obvious and not confusing. azalard sorry to tell you this but shaw has absolutly nothing and i mean nothing to do with the derielict space craft on lv426. this is proven by the fact that there are eggs on the ship not ampules .even though the amuples accelerate or create life doesnt mean the damn things turned into eggs on there own that would be pretty unimaginative the jockey is obviously older it was made of stone and was most certanily fossilized ridley has said this him self. which would mean the engineers wanted a way to compact the creature and make it easier for tranport alla black goo its really not that hard to understand if you ppl would just stop trying to link lv426 to prometheus. the only link i think you could make would be that the events leading to lv426 is wat prompted engineers to refine the xenomorph there fore creating the black goo and linking alien to prometheus in the only way possible besides the xeno dna its self
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David_4
MemberOvomorphJun-07-2012 10:47 PMI belive that most of it CAN be explained in the movie
Here's my point of view (I'm from mexico so bear with me if I fail to explain myself grammatically correct)
1.- In the beginning of the movie we can se how the SJ's (Or Engeneers) take the black goo and starts a deconstruction in a molecular level into the water in a place wich we can presume is planet Earth in the Cambrian age. The engieneer is thrown into the water and with him being deconstructed by the black goo that also works as a evolutionarie booster (or maybe it's a diferent black goo...?) stages the first elements of life, being water the element that will hold the first life forms.
2.- I presume that this was a staged event. The Engieneers where in the middle of experimenting on how to create a Xenomorph's (Probably to use them in the future as weapons, as we can see in the mural, the Xenomorph it's in the form that we all know) and this was one of the experiments. I belive they hoped that they could grow Xenomorph life in planet earth, but the experiment failed it's purpouse and only lead to create a being that through evolutionarie phases worked it's way into the top: The humans, and this creature came to evolve so remarkably as them (Maybe that's one of the reasons OR the reason why they plan to destroy us?).
OR
Humans (and other life forms) were just harvested to hold Xenomorph's so they could use them later as weapons (Being that they already had waited enough time and the Humans were already capable of holding a proper Xenomorph for god knows what reasons)
Personally I'm sticking to this one...
3.- Why leave a map?. Maybe the only way to launch the Xenomorph colonization on earth would be if Humans were READY for it, I'll explain this later... Engeneers knew that humans would eventually wonder about their own existence and would seek answers, so they visited and most likely helped Humans to be rational (All staged so they could hold Xenomorph life inside them in some future) and that could explain WHY ancient civilazation that had no conection between them had the same pictogram: They knew that the ideal moment to plant or harvest the Xenomorphs in Humans would be when Humans would be almost at their pair in tecnological advances, that's when they would be READY to be harvested. And they would be leading them into a military spaceship that would go back to Earth and harvest the Xenomorphs inside humans, the Black goo only works with their DNA and we knoe that Humans hold the same DNA as the Engeneers (they wouldn't experiment on themselves, logically).
4.- In this precise ship of the movie of Prometheus, we can see that something went wrong and Xenomorphs started to spread in the Engeneers, leading them to their end. They hadn't anticipated that to happen, maybe some of the scientist or crew members got sweped out by the Xenomorphs, but one of them saved himself in a criogenic state, following and sticking the plan that Humans would eventually get to the spaceship... (maybe that's the reason why The Engeneer in the movie just smiles, because he notices the plan went as the expected)
So... that's my point of view.
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that1Guy
MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:35 PMThe "protoxeno" that popped out of the space jockey was 100% a queen alien. That was the point of the director showing her mouth open, and a smaller mouth extruding from it. That was with out a doubt suppose to tell you that creature was the Queen alien.
Also, the wasnt the ship that crashed in prometheus suppose to be the ship in alien?
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that1Guy
MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:37 PMThe "protoxeno" that popped out of the space jockey was 100% a queen alien. That was the point of the director showing her mouth open, and a smaller mouth extruding from it. That was with out a doubt suppose to tell you that creature was the Queen alien.
Also, the wasnt the ship that crashed in prometheus suppose to be the ship in alien?
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that1Guy
MemberOvomorphJun-08-2012 3:40 PMThe "protoxeno" that popped out of the space jockey was 100% a queen alien. That was the point of the director showing her mouth open, and a smaller mouth extruding from it. That was with out a doubt suppose to tell you that creature was the Queen alien.
Also, the wasnt the ship that crashed in prometheus suppose to be the ship in alien?
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Muddywaters
MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 5:29 AMIf you include AvP in the alien cannon, Xeno's were on ancient earth in the Preditor temple so they must predate Prometheus,
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AnthonyFonze
MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 9:21 AM@that1Guy: I find no fault in your reasoning, it does seem highly logical that the Xeno was a queen at the end, but people keep suggesting that it is not the same ship in Alien because 1. It's on another planet. 2. There is no "Space Jockey" fused to the pilot chair.
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AnthonyFonze
MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 9:31 AMI think the biggest thing that needs to be explained is... wtf was up with the beginning? please explain this. It was the trippiest sh!t ever
1. we see a shadow of a giant spaceship that doesn't pose any similarity any other ship we've seen.
2. then there's the Space Jockey doin a shot of the "Black Goo" and virtually disintegrating into the water.
3. also what planet was this on? looked too spectacular to be on Earth and there were no traces of water on the planet they were on.
4. when did this event take place?
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the_devils_advocate
MemberOvomorphJun-09-2012 10:03 AMI agree that is unlikely for the eggs on the derelict to have been laid by the alien in Prometheus but I think people are putting too much credence on a throwaway line that “it looks fossilised” it was probably just the best term they had at the time and could refer to the suit which isn’t made of bone but just looks fossilised (could be how the engineers use carbon to create there suits) anyway yeah I just wish people would stop replying onthat one line to assume it had to have happened thousands of years ago
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bobsuruncle
MemberOvomorphNov-24-2012 9:30 PMhere's my take on this from what you guys have said. is it not possible that the original alien in Prometheus was in fact a queen? if so couldn't she have laid something even if it isn't an egg to continue species and since there was something in pilots seat couldn't the "Space Jockey" race have come back to check in with this outpost and gotten infected themselves creating another evolution in the aliens which caused the eggs to be laid that were found secondly I'm inclined to believe the theory that the fossil was the exo-suit and not an actual fossil then of course there's the fact that we don't know how long the gap between Prometheus and the first movie is so maybe they came back thousands of years before the next trip out I don't know however I wouldn't rule out that possibility
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bobsuruncle
MemberOvomorphNov-24-2012 9:41 PMoh and I have 1 more thing why does it have to be another planet the atmosphere is the same as is the surface so maybe I missed something
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