Is "Prometheus" The Beginning of Ridley Scott's Final Comment on Android Spiritu

I prefered this thread when the title was "Is" much more enigmatic; more 'come get me' as a thread no? :)

Ah, that happened when I went back to edit; apparently, the OP field resets when quotation marks are used. Yeah, that's what this site needs... MORE enigma. Heh heh

I mention in another thread that David's eyes harden after Weyland's comment, something that might be lost on people unless you're looking for it. Anyway, I agree with you, and would be quite interesting in what Ridley comes up with in the sequel for David. I just hope Fassbender is available and gets his body back.

Hey, I loved Michael Fassbender as David... The guy is like a Lawrence of Arabia Peter O'Toole ringer. In fact, I'd like to see Fassbender try the role of Lawrence of Arabia. However, I think he'll make make a great living off of Prometheus.

I think Prometheus is more about humans spirituality while David is just a tool at the end . Bladerunner was about Androids having no soul ( thats why they were so afraid to die ) but that raised another ( and bigger ) question : " what if we have no soul too ? Wouldnt our memories get lost like tears in the rain too ? "

David is the centerpiece of the [i]Prometheus[/i] story — more so than the androids of the [i]Alien[/i] story. I mean, Ridley Scott is going to TEASE the great Science Fiction questions here... Do we have souls? Do machines have souls? Did machines create Humanity? Are Androids closer to God than Humans?

I really like the concept that God is a machine... If the engenieers created humans then who created the engenieers? A Machine!... it would really bite the brains out if they end up with a really good script to tell the story.

I agree that the David character is central to whatever Scott and Lindeloff have up their sleeves. There are a hundred questions about what David's motives are throughout the film. He is clearly motivated by something more than Ash was in ALIEN (simply following a corporate directive). He is leading the humans through the storyline, literally opening the doors for them, and telling them whatever he wants to. And no one questions any of it. The humiliation in the Weyland recording was odd. Why, as noted above, would he make such a point about David not having a soul? It made me uncomfortable. We can assume that David has monitored everyone's dreams, not just Shaw's, so my main David question is (like HAL 9000) what does he make of it all? Do the inner thoughts of these people drive him into doing certain things and acting a certain way?

God-as-a-machine has been done before, you know. [i]The Matrix[/i] trilogy sort of explored God-as-a-machine, but only in a very limited way, within the confines of the Earthly Human sphere. The [i]Prometheus[/i] franchise (I'm not calling it a trilogy, yet) is going to expand God-as-a-Machine to a [i]cosmic[/i] scale.

I think David's fascination with the multifaceted nebulosity of human thinking — which destroyed HAL 9000, drove him insane — may be David's downfall. I mean, David had been analyzing the evolution of human culture and language, which enabled him to [i]not only[/i] interpret petroglyphs, but to EXTRAPOLATE his cumulative knowledge into the hitherto UNSPOKEN [i]Engineer language[/i], right? David was the only character who actually spoke the Engineer language; and, as soon as he did, the Engineer ripped his head off. But perhaps David had become [i]too recognizably human[/i] for the Engineer's tolerance. Then, again, there's the running theme of Android decapitation, which makes me wonder. I'm thinking that [i]saving the head[/i] is important to Androids in Ridley Scott's world. And, yes, I'm thinking that the Engineers are Androids, themselves — except they evolved in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION from our Androids. Meaning, we humans began as organic gutbuckets who then mastered machines and used the knowledge to fabricate synthetic gutbuckets called Androids. If my theory holds any water, the Engineers are synthetic gutbuckets who were fabricated by Machines, in sort of reverse-evolution. The Android, therefore, becomes the liaison between organic and artificial life. Of course, the definition of "artificial" is open to debate, if the machines were here first.

Heh, you touched on my theory I plan on writing about in my fanfic. Damn thing started as a one shot, but now it's getting very ambitious. I wanted to do something opposite from all the theories, but made sense. The reverse evolution is a huge plot point when Shaw and David reach the Engineer homeworld in my story.

Interesting possibility, I think, that David's name may have been chosen in deference to [b]Dave Bowman[/b] (from [i]2001: A Space Odyssey[/i]), who would be the antithesis of Dave the Android, yes?

[u]Heh, you touched on my theory I plan on writing about in my fanfic.[/u] Wanna collaborate? I'm bogged down writing one of those damnable time-travel stories, and I need a few months break. Heh heh

I like this idea, it is original despite the matrix story. It also ties in with a theory of mine that the next instalment will actually be a prequel to Prometheus (hindsight) and be cleverly named Epimetheus (foresight) and will tell the sorry of how Weyland created David (and possibly Vickers even). Something also tells me that the engineers reaction to David was based on his comment and what he said, I don't beleive he said as he was meant to and instead asked his own questions to the engineer about his own purpose and being.

OP: Unknown. Just because there is character dialogue doesn't mean that that is the final story. IMO, if humans have souls and our mind is just energy patterns between neurons there is no reason that if we create a machine mind that it could not have one. Maybe just organizing energy into consciousness is enough...

The matrix was never about god being a machine. Idk from where you got that. I personally believe this movie was more about the idea of sacrifice to give life, the dangers of choosing to believe blindly(faith) and the spiritual journey to find the truth about our beginnings.

Ah, I'm selfish when it comes to writing, lol. Always have to insist on my own interpretation. Plus this will be a David/Shaw story...with some naughty...time. I'm waiting for Fanfiction.net to get it together and add Prometheus as a "world" to their Alien/Predator section. Add then they need to add all the Prometheus characters. Whenever they do that, I'll start posting.

Well, I'm not just basing it on dialogue, but on the fact that David is center stage in this story. No, I don't think Shaw is going to be another Ripley, the focal point of every [i]Alien[/i] sequel. I think [i]Prometheus[/i] is where Ridley Scott gives it to the Androids for a change.

[u]The matrix was never about god being a machine. Idk from where you got that.[/u] Well, I beg to differ. A LOT of people would beg to differ. The premise of the first [i]Matrix[/i] was that everything we THOUGHT we knew about the world and the Universe was a prefabricated lie; indeed, everything about human existence was dictated by the Machines (AI). Following a storyline steeped in theism, Neo arrived as a messiah to save what was left of humanity. He discovered that the Machine God had recreated the Matrix (the human world) multiple times — cycles of creation and destruction, the Machine God attempting to create the perfect Matrix code, attempting to generate a perfect ILLUSION of reality for the copper-top humans, right. Yeah, in every sense, [i]The Matrix[/i] was about God-as-a-Machine. I mean, look at Neo's death scene. They carry him out like Christ, he gave his life to purge the corrupt Smith code and save Humanity. Neo wasn't just "The One"... He was a Christ figure. No denying it. He was a PRODUCT of the Machine God, but he embodied the ANOMALY of Human Spirit. That's what the Architect and Oracle and all the others could never touch. The Oracle Program [i]came close[/i] to capturing the essence of Human Spirit, which is what made her so valuable to the Architect and to the continuity of the Matrix. She could emulate human capriciousness, intuition and even clairvoyance, but only in a limited way. Anyhow, I don't want to turn this into another Matrix thread. The overriding point, I suppose, is that we ARE, in fact, approaching the threshold of AI in the real world. It's not very far off, at all. And more and more of our "entertainment" and discussion is turning toward that eventuality. That....inevitability.

I do agree with Charles that David is the main character in Prometheus. To me Prometheus is much more of a Blade Runner sequel than an alien prequel. The main point in Prometheus is the androids souls and the long term question os all humankind: Who made us and for what?

@Charles Austin Miller Just wondering, have you ever heard about Plato´s allegory of the cave or Descartes evil genius. Those are two of the biggest inspirations for the Matrix. I suggest you read about those two and also simulacra and simulation. Im sorry but the matrix is not about God being a machine. I have to say I do agree with Neo being a Christ figure. I think the Waschowskis have said it a couple of times. Anyways ill stop here or this will become as you said another Matrix thread.

I love this topic! "Yet, in the crew's orientation hologram, the elderly Peter Weyland makes a POINT of humiliating David, stating that he loves David like a son, but that David HAS NO SOUL." Throughout the whole film I thought David as a curious being, even though he was technically an android, I feel as if he was on a quest for knowledge. David had a favorite film. David appeared to care about his/its physical image. Throughout, insult after insult, I feel that David took everything personally. I think David was meant to be the vessel driven through the movie, as if it was focused on him, because in his eyes humans were irrelevant. They would come and go, live and die, but David was something more. My main point: David seemed to possess curiosity on a level not known to mortals because he was synthetic, and would/can go on gaining knowledge, but in a simple form; curious. David didn't are about war or money, etc...

Like Maiafay and Russ Dire both pointed out, I noticed David's expression changed to a slight frown when Weyland says he has no soul. David's expression also changes to a slight frown when Holloway says "Right, because you're not a real boy" after David declines his offer of a glass of Champagne, saying it would be wasted on him. It's subtle but there. Now if he had no capacity to feel those details would not be there, he would have puttered around like a toaster without a care in the world. I am not certain about Ridley but I do know Lindeholf said he wrote the movie from a robots perspective (In his words, "Because Robots are so cool"). @Frantz; I understood Blade Runner very differently. I understood it as they wanted more time because they had just gained a soul and wanted to live and feel the world and it's experiences to the fullest before having to leave this life. From what I figure and this is nothing new really, is that we humans are androids as well. That God is not some magical being, it is just some creature that created us like we created David or any android/robot. Full circle type thing.

Svanya, I essentially agree with you, but I would describe it this way... Having or not having a "soul" is an [u]emergent[/u] phenomenon. You can only have a soul if you can understand what a soul is (or rather is *supposed* to be) based on how you describe it for yourself within your belief system, which is in turn dependent on others having a relationship to your system. For me, David's soul is every bit as real (valid) as Weyland's or Shaw's. And the same goes for Roy, Rachel, Deckard, [i]et al[/i]. Weyland could not have insulted David if David didn't have a soul. And those of you who feel that Weyland insulted David can only feel that way because you have a soul. The viral video is very clever to point out that David understands *human* emotions, but does not feel them himself. That in and of itself does not mean IN ANY WAY that David does not have his own emotions that are native to him as a function of his emergent soul. Furthermore, David has the *last* of the last laughs on Weyland. As Weyland dies and realizes "There's nothing"—no place for his soul to go—David validates his master's last flicker of enlightenment and simultaneously damns Weyland to oblivion. Better than the desiccated mogul obviously deserves. "Beings" have or don't have a soul based on their sentience and consciousness, but they can only be aware of the ramifications of a soul—having one—if they can talk about what it means to have one or not. If you have a pet dog or cat, you are probably very aware that they have emotions; fears; devotion; the capacity to love and hate, etc. Many people also believe that their pets go to heaven. Essentially, they are attributed a soul, even though they are not aware that they have one. Humanity has long used the soul as a weapon against our enemies; meaning each other. It is very popular to strip away "soul-bearing" status from enemies, slaves, etc. That justifies treating "them" in a degrading, sub-human fashion. The reason that we sympathize with David is that he is a symbol in the film for all of the injustices that we commit against and amongst ourselves. And, that discrimination against him elevates the value of his soul to that of AVENGER if you are so inclined to view his plight in such a light. If you are of the mindset (as was Weyland) that only a human being can have a soul, I pose this question to you. Did Neanderthals have souls? If they did, did that make them [i]de facto[/i] humans? If they were [i]de facto[/i] humans then what other non-homo sapiens humanoids in our fossil record were also humans? When was the innovation of the soul inserted into our DNA? And, where do all of those souls of departed Neanderthals, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ergaster]Ergaster[/url], etc. currently reside? If you are of a mindset that Neanderthals were NOT human and did not possess souls, then what was the status of the individuals produced by [url=http://news.discovery.com/human/neanderthals-interbreeding-humans-110825.html]homo sapiens/Neanderthal interbreeding[/url]? Did they have 1/2 a soul each? Androids and replicants are only "prone" to be on the playing field for having a soul because they are made in our image. They are only made in our image because that enables us to better form emotional relationships with them. We will make them that way—realistically—when we're actually able to do it well—first and foremost—to care for our elderly. Why? Because the robot won't mind answering the same question 23 times in the span of 30 minutes; 18 hours a day; 365 days a year; while modern medicine keeps the souled human alive extra year after extra year and family members visit fewer and fewer days each season as the years pile up. The more soul those robots have the better.

".. while modern medicine keeps the souled human alive extra year after extra year and family members visit fewer and fewer days each season as the years pile up.." From a robot's perspective what is time? They can answer the same question 100 times in a row without a complaint. They act on what is presented to them each moment. If the robotic mind deals with the here and now they would seem like they were 'gods' if they had a human perspective. Maybe soul is just a human term and no robot could understand or need to understand.