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Engineering

MemberOvomorphJune 21, 20121271 Views28 Replies
I've always considered myself a "fanboy" of certain things but it seems my definition of the term may differ from some other people's. I've been reading a lot of posts which infer that the people who don't have the same opinion of the one posting are close minded and wrong. For example "He's a fanboy and nothing you say will change his mind" and "He's a hater and he'll never understand the film no matter what happens." I am a fan who has an open mind and as I've stated before I will listen to and consider what people have to say as long as there's a mutual respect of opinions. But mutual respect for other's opinions seems to be close to non-existent on the forum. I'm not saying that I'm innocent of this behavior. I have been sucked in to this type of posting at least a few times and I regret it as I'm not that kind of person. Obviously this film instills a passion, either for or against, and sometimes we let that passion get the best of us. However some people are just that way and that's why the slang term "troll" was invented. Now, onto some thoughts about the film... I have stated that I love the film and discussed how I believe that not all the "plot holes" that members point out are necessarily "plot holes." However, I have really tried to hold off on talking in depth about why I love the film. I wanted to see the film a few times, read intelligent thoughts from both sides of the fence and make up my mind in an informed manner. I feel a little comfortable now and wish to say a few things in reaction to all the talk inferring that people who love the film are close minded. I love Ridley Scott's work but I absolutely do not think that everything he's done is great. He's done some films which I didn't like. Prometheus is not one of those. I love the film. I will admit that it does have flaws. Mainly imo the flaws are what some might call "lazy" writing. Especially in regards to characterization. Some of the characters and their actions and reactions are pretty silly. IMO nobody should deny that. The characterization imo is the biggest flaw in the film but the film does have other flaws and I'll go into what I think they are at a later time. All films have flaws though. Why did some feel it wouldn't be infected by this fact? Why are the flaws of Prometheus magnified so much? So, those flaws in mind I will now state why I can overlook them and still love the film. Most of this stuff I've said a million times. Pretty much evrything I've stated that I love about the film totally outweighs the lazy characterization for me. In fact, some of the things I love in the film kind of explain why the lazy characterization is there and why I feel it can be overlooked. First is the very immense ideas the film touches on. We all know what these ideas are. The what, who, when, why and how of humans, spirituality, faith, empathy or the lack thereof. Ideas like that. Ideas that are very rarely tackled in films. Large ideas that are in all reality are impossible to get exactly right in a 2 hour film. These ideas where brought up in an interesting and intruiging way. I can overlook the lazy characterization because the film takes on such big things. This film isn't about Fifield or Millburn or why one smokes pot or why the other makes bad descisions. This film is about our creators and gives us a taste of what extraordinary mysteries lay behind them. I've said it a thousand times and you can plug your ears if you want but I love the ambiguity...I love the questions...I love mysteries. I love being able to talk about and read other's theories about the films questions. To me that is really getting your moneys worth. Thos film has provided me with more entertainment out of the theatre than any film I've ever seen...Period. Now it's clear and totally understandable that some do not like films that ask this much of their audience. Sometimes I have said that sarcastically, implying that the people who didn't like the film just don't like to use their brains. I know that's probably not the case. Some people just like different kinds of films. There's nothing wrong with wanting a film that is pretty straight forward. Nothing at all. Finally, I'll talk about the totally obvious reason that I love the film. It wont b e a long talk as I haven't seen anyone speak in disfavor of this aspect of the film. In fact, I can sum it up and one word and leave it at that...VISUALS. Another thing I've posted about before is the early reviews Alien and even more so Blade Runner. As most know the early reviews for both basically stated the films were "All style and no substance." Much like some reviews for Prometheus. Could ANYTHING be further from the truth? I mean, could anyone get a review that wrong without trying. Now, in no way am I saying that this will definitely happen with Prometheus. It's just something to consider. Finally, I think that this film tried to do some very specific things. It focused on certain things and obviously paid a little less attention to other aspects. The aspects which they didn't get right are obviously what some were really hoping they got right. The things that I feel the film got right are the very things I was looking for in the film. That's why I love it. That's why it's a classic imo. The biggest tragedy imo is it seems it should have been fairly easy to get the things they got wrong, right. I'm not a filmmaker though and I have no idea if it would have been easy. Anyway, I'm going to continue to keep an open mind. When I feel an argument has been presented that makes sense I will admit it and take it into consideration. However I do not think that I will like the film any less. I know each and every one of us have at least 1 bad film that they love. Just because the film isn't a "masterpiece" per se doesn't mean that you can't love it. Doesn't mean that it's not great. They can still hgave magical elements which make audiences love them. I really hope and wish that everyone will try to open their mind and respect other's opinions. Hopefully if a few members do it it will become contagious and people wont get sucked into negative conversations. By "negative" I mean conversations that don't respect the other's opinions. I do not mean "negative" as in you don't like the film.
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artyoh
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@artyoh Here's the problem with the dichotomy that the Engineers showed in Prometheus. The Engineer at the beginning and the Engineer at the end are two separate characters. They are not one and the same character. Even if it were the same character, we only see the beginning and the end of the character arc and not the middle or transformative part. Character arc is what story is all about. Inconsistency for the sake of inconsistency does not equal ambiguity. [i]That they're two separate characters also separated by time, is irrelevant to my point that with one hand they create, while destroying with the other. It isn't gratuitous ambiguity, merely because you claim it is.[/i] Try to think of another, more familiar species, which provides a similar dichotomy of creative and destructive behaviors. Are there really any "good guys" here?
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Engineering
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@Xenotron...Once again you seem to think your opinions are scripture. It seems you feel this way now because you claim to be educated and seems as if you are implying that I am not. I feel no need to state my education on a film forum to try and convince someone my views are right and theirs are wrong. That really is quite ridiculous. @dallas!dallas!...Got it. I see what you meant now.
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dallas!dallas!
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I think my problem with the film is how it tackles its big ideas. Scott said that Alien is a B-movie that feels epic, and I think he's right. While it creates a universe that can be explored with more depth, the original is not all that deep. But Scott then went on to say Prometheus is an epic, with comparisons to 2001. If Alien was a B movie that felt epic, then Prometheus is an epic that feels, to me, like a B movie, with really great effects. Maybe it is nearly impossibly to dwell on big themes and still scare the hell out of an audience. But the existential/metaphysical ideas were handled in a way that was, to me, very slight, a couple of exchanges b/w Holloway and Shaw here, David and Holloway there, very trite to my ears, and then a loss of guts and the need to satisfy teens with zombies and so forth. I started a thread way back asking if fans would be upset if there were no horror/action in the movie but more living in uncertainty and dread. I think Scott and company got worried about ticking off people wanting the former and had to have silly cliches to please them. I must say this . . . I do not like the movie but not because it didn't answer certain questions in the way that a 2001 or even Alien didn't. I think that is an unfair accusation of us dislikers. I like movies that leave us wondering. But there is a difference between that and just being tricky to open a way for a sequel or just to be tricky. The unanswered questions in prometheus are not profound or interesteing for me, more just the result of not knowing where to go. But I do think it showed promise in the beginning.
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Jett
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I see Prometheus in a certain way and it may sound simplistic but here it is...Ridley says it's the first part of two, maybe three installments. So what I and everyone else have seen so far is only part of the whole story and I'm taking the long view....I like what I have seen very much and recognize that the film is doing well and Fox has stated publicly that they got Ridley's back. I know the rest of the story I will like as well.
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Engineering
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@Dallas!!Dallas!!...I hear you. Thanks for pointing out that you didn't dislike the film because of the ambiguity. I didn't mean that everyone that disliked it disliked it because of the ambiguity. It does seem to me that you did dislike it because of some of the ambiguity. IMO there are different levels of ambiguity. There are also different definitions I guess. Personally, I regard things left unanswered ambiguous no matter the reason. Whether it was to bait people to see a sequel or some other reasons it gets you thinking and theorizing. And I do agree with you as it seems you were saying the film wasn't "scary" but we all know it's pretty imopossible to really scare audiences nowadays. I think they did well considering this fact of film making. BTW, thanks for the respectful response.
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Engineering
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@Jett...That's a very good point. I've always looked at Prometheus as act 1. But, with my love of questions-and unlike probably everyone here-I think the film stands well on it's own. Not "technically" but like I mentioned before about how it's possible to love a bad film, I think it could stand well on it's own imo if that makes sense. I see how and why people think it wont stand well at all without a sequel and that's true. But imo, as far as the way I see it and what I like, it can.
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Svanya
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I had to watch it a second time and get over the fact it wasn't what the Viral vids promised it would be to enjoy it. I had fun once the shock wore off, LOL. It's not the best Sci-fi but certainly far from the worst, besides any movie is going to suck if you nit pick every detail.

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dallas!dallas!
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Engineer Thx. Ultimately, I never understood the sustained vehemence of convincing someone to love or hate a flick. I mean after the first viewing, one can understand but after awhile, it gets silly!
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Engineering
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@Svanya...Yeah, this film has been discected and picked apart like a frog in science class. Which viral vids are you talking about? The TED and David 8 ones? What did they seem to give that the film didn't deliver on in your opinion? @dallas!dallas!...I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. I get what your saying about how it's hard to understand why someone would want to force you to share their opinion. I've never tried to force my opinion on anyone else. I might discuss why I like it and things like that but some people go way overboard. To be honest it seems to me like the people who didn't enjoy the film try to force their opinion on others more than the people who like it. Maybe I just see it that way because I like it but I really try to see things for what they are though and not just what I want them to be. I'm not sure. Back to what I was saying. It's the 2nd part of your post that I don't understand. What can one understand after the first viewing? What gets silly after a while?
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Svanya
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@Engineering; All of them, they gave this sense of awesomeness and fluidity that the actual movie never had. And to be fair to everyone a LOT of people that loved the movie try and force their opinion on others as well, just like the ones that hated it. Sadly the ones that really hated it come across as far more negative. :(

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Xenotron
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My problems with the movie are completely objective. The visuals were spectacular, amazing even. Well, with the exception of the CGI Deacon alien. The problems with Prometheus lie with it's unbelievable characters, illogical and inconsistent plot, as well as way too many things that were set up that didn't pay off. For a comparison, is a joke funny if you don't tell the punchline? The reviews for Alien got better over time because the subtext of rape was always there and Blade Runner got new cuts of the film (the original cut does suck).
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Shadowcaster
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@Engineering This is pretty much exactly something I was writing word for word Engineering! I have now scrapped my post that I was writing in Word first, as I no longer have to say what I have to say. I agree with you whole heartedly on your views, and I am glad I am not alone. @Jett That too is how I looked at this film. I don't mid waiting for a sequl or two to pull it all together. Infact I am down right giddy to super anxious to see more. Thanks to you both for making me feel like normal again!!!
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Engineering
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@Svanya...I was fair. I didn't say that only the people that didn't like the film try to force their opinion on others. I just said it seems to me like there are more people who didn't like the film trying to shove their opinions in everyone's face. Maybe it seems like that because of the way they go about it. It's rather on the offensive while people who liked the film are trying to defend it. Those come from 2 totally different places in the spectrum of human emotion and one is obviously very abrasive. @Xenotron...I hear you on the characterization front but the things that were illogical in the film where things that the characters did. So imo those 2 are one in the same. Could you elaborate on what you thought were the inconsistencies regarding the plot? As far as things not paying off that, to me, seems to point right back at ambiguity, which some like and some don't. The film needs a sequel. I think everyone can agree on that. I know you know what I mean. Besides someone that would say something like "the movie sucked so bad they don't need to make a sequel" we can all agree that a sequel is needed. I said earlier that the film works for me even if they don't make one but I desperately want one. Not just to get answers but just to see what happens. I don't see why people can deal with being left hanging on a tv series like Walking Dead or Falling Skies but do it in a film and you get ripped. Can films not evolve? I love the long format and being left wanting more and asking questions. Anyway, this post ended up being a lot longer than intended. I gotta go for now.
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Engineering
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@Shadowcaster...Yes, it's nice to know others feel the same way in regards to the film. Sorry if you did a bunch of work then just had to scrap it lol.
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Engineering
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@Xenotron...Forgot some things...I don't think the theatrical cut of Blade Runner sucked. I think the reviews of it over time would have gotten better even without other cuts. And as far as Alien having the rape subtext, Prometheus has ludicrous amounts of subtext on things more controversial and relevant than rape. Not that rape isn't relevant or controversial but the religious subtexts as well as creationism and things like abortion etc. I could go on and on about subtext both obvious and hidden in Prometheus. This film will have legs and people will discover new things about it for a while. Actually, there's such a blitz of people talking about and picking apart all the themes and subtext that we might find out everything too quickly lol. Your comment about the Alien having the rape subtext has just improved my argument that the film is following the same "all style no substance" path that Alien and BR did. Thanks! Now I really gotta go!
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Xenotron
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If the film needs a sequel, what does that say about the movie? When you order an entree, are you expecting an appetizer? The inconsistencies are mainly because the movie wants to be several different movies and can't decide on what it wants to be. It starts out as an adventure movie, and then after Holloway dies, unrelated things happen that tonally shift the movie from violent thriller, to the ending of a story arc (that wasn't set up) about an old man seeking immortality. That's what I mean by inconsistent. Blade Runner has ambiguity. Prometheus doesn't. Prometheus could have had ambiguity if the Engineers didn't act like mindless killers. For instance, Roy Batty is a thoughtful, complex character who quotes poetry, plays chess, laments death, and threatens Deckard, but decides to show that he has a soul by saving Deckard's life in recompense for his murders. Was Roy really a bad guy? Who was more machine-like: the guy with emotions or the guy sent to kill him? Now, you tell me how the Engineer displays anything remotely close to that. Do you see what I mean?
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abordoli
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[i]"I really hope and wish that everyone will try to open their mind and respect other's opinions. Hopefully if a few members do it it will become contagious and people wont get sucked into negative conversations. By "negative" I mean conversations that don't respect the other's opinions. I do not mean "negative" as in you don't like the film."[/i] I 100% agree!
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Xenotron
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I'm sorry, but there's no religious subtext in Prometheus. Subtext is the underlying meaning implied by something; a statement that can be inferred. The lesson Prometheus gives with religious beliefs is that something is true because you believe it's true. The problem comes when someone else believes it's false. So then, is the religious subtext that God exists? Is that because Shaw believes he exists and therefore he does? What about atheists? By extension, is Prometheus a deep and intellectual movie because you choose to believe it is? That's subtext. The first cut of Blade Runner was terrible because of the voice-over narration and tacked-on ending. Both Harrison Ford and the Holy Scott himself think so too.
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Nuck Chorris
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I have some kind of love/hate relationship, but the more time passes, i think the negative feelings about the movie prometheus grow and i dont think it will mean much to me in 5 or 10 years - or better said, in 1 month i will be ready with it an bring the movie-disappointment of the decade behind me.. Love-feelings, as i love ridley scott as Sci-Fi filmmaker (did not like very most of his other stuff AT ALL..), and the alien universe is the most interesting to me from all sci-fi universes. Hate that star wars disney-like lucas-crap. awfull. Never understood why people go for it.. awfull. Hate-Feelings, as i feel disappointed about it, with little changes and addings it could get so much better - really frustrating. And as i very mostly read and see the same opinion whereever if find a review, i dont think everyone is wrong and its in fact a masterpiece - no, its not at all. I can t say exactly why, maybe if i would be 19 now i may love it, but i am 42 and i find the outcome somekind of "cockiness", i feel fooled, maybe thats my biggest problem about prometheus. I feel like a dealer wants to fix me to get me addicted, but there is nothing behind and i dont trust the promises, i think 2nd part will do the same "trick" again, and then you go to 3rd part and - wow, THEY FUCKIN DID IT AGAIN and fooled you for YEARS... through the whole franchise. And that makes me really angry. Simple as that...
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Late
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Very solid read on the flick - and I like the fact that a shout toward the times some chucklehead lights up the board with no intention of doing anything other than stirring up shit is not the point in engaging with discussing the movie. This sets me up for getting a hit myself - I had a hard time with the flick because of the producers, David Hill and Walter Grier. Can't remember which is which, but in the "Alien" box sets, there are behind the scenes features that have interviews with one of these guys - and the audacity (sorry if spelling is off) that the financiers have some sort of creative ability - is shocking. The sheer ego in conversations had with half the production team in the "making of" features is amazing. It single-handedly lead the mythos off a cliff, and we're left holding the bag. There's a reason why David Fincher won't discuss his take on an "Alien" sequel, and with good reason. As soon as I saw the Grier / Hill name flash on screen in the opening credits, I knew I was in for a rough ride. I actually love the ideas that are being addressed, and I actually grew to love most of the characters, but the "let's keep the audience in for the two hour mark, and cut the shit out of things to keep their attention" edit I experienced reeked of these two clowns once again forcing their hand. Who knows what happens, but I can promise that there's a pretty prime cut of a flick in there. Truly, the only thing that bothered me was the zombified mohawk character pulling an "Exorcist" spider-walk crawl, mostly because the make-up looked pretty suspect. I like the idea of evolution and mutation, but visually, that scene made me feel like I was watching an outtake from "Evil Dead 2" (which, by the way, I happen to love). Maybe it's misdirected ire - but just watch the features on your "Alien" box set ("Anthology" or "Quad") with a taste of "oh, this is what happens when the major film industry get involved", and you'll see (at least) my frustration with "Prometheus". In any case, great discussion - thanks for letting me air my beef. I actually love the film on several levels, but feel a little stink palm from the pacing. We're smarter than what we saw trunicated.

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