LV223 or LV426, which came first?

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/OetzitheIceman02.jpg/300px-OetzitheIceman02.jpg[/img] This is a picture of Otzi the iceman, a man who lived about 3,300 BCE, who was naturally mummified inside a glacier.... [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/OetzitheIceman-glacier-199109a.jpg/250px-OetzitheIceman-glacier-199109a.jpg[/img] Mummification does not always require the act of embalming.

Holly cow, look at all the effort your thread has produced. Fantastic... I really like lively threads... so here it goes. What came first the deacon xeno or our alien from the first movie? Who knows... and who cares. This is a piece of fiction and not based on any facts. The xeno and the aliens could have been created at the dame time, for different methods of delivery... I like the Black Ooze better, it just attacks all organisms, mutates them... and then the resultant mutated creature is off on a killing spree... simple, clean, and no need to facehug and all the mess.

I DONT Care Bear [img]http://msn.mess.be/data/media/18/weedybear.png[/img]

Yes they could have been exposed to facehuggers as depicted upon the murial but it was possibly due to being under controlled conditions and was never in any grand threat to the wider planetary systems and beyond stretching off towards Earth. As with regards to the depictions of the 'humanoid sacraficial indivuduals' upon the murial they could just be low ranking members of the Bio Enginneers culture and were deemed expendable and being that both their faces are partially covered by the 'leaping' facehuggers then it is not absolutely clear whether they are Humans or Engineers - and smaller engineers at that. And not every cave art painting we have seen depicted on Earth was always to scale as wth the work of artists through the years, some works look almost immaturely out of proportion as a child would do. There is also no reason to assume, as yet anyway, that the two leaping facehuggers and the two humanoid-looking scaraficial individuals are drawn to scale. It may have been their cultures version of abstract expressionism, as is the case at times, more often than not with Giger.

@Spartacus; There is a depiction of the original facehugger attached to a victim in the mural. However, I THINK it is just artistic expression by the art dept. people. They are based on Gigers original "Turkey burster" design. This is what people mean when they say there are facehuggers on the mural. This is an awesome link on the subject by a member called Mr. J Click-->[url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/7371]Alien Life cycle and Original Facehugger on Mural[/url] Here are the images: [IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2rei7tf.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2s79nqg.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/20rmouu.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/2nhjgxu.jpg[/IMG]

Alright Snorkelbottom, when it comes to that of the Iceman I am prepared to conceed a little. But again, it was a process for him being surronded by something, in his case a substance - Ice in this case. So you have to conceed a little that for your hypothosis to work on that of the Space Jockey he himself would had to have been surrounded by something, a substance, an embalming process, purhaps in some freak of nature event his own suit in a perverted kind of way 'mummified him' on the spot. So There is two ways your hypothosis can go. Maybe the atmospheric pressures for some bizzar reason on LV 426 can do weird things to life forms bodies, I don't know.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummification]Mummies[/url] Look up the section [b]Natural Mummification[/b] In Alien Ash said the planetoid was "deep cold", that's all it needs!

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there is a face there yes...

Yes I am more than aware of the processes! And they found one entirely in ice - no peat gravel around it. Also part of the problem is that many fossils take a looooong time to form and ice ages and heat ages come and go relatively shortly in comparison this is why it is a complex and rare subject that they form in ice - but it is possible - the ice is surrounding - liquid carries the minerals etc. etc. . Also imagine other situations - inside commets or other worlds were conditions are very different - maybe millions or billions of years of ice staying formed...anyway yes never mind :P ...I guess these tangents fire off from lack of info from this film - hurry up and give us more please :P ...

I can see what looks like facehuggers and figures in that mural. However those huggers are bigger than the ones we see in Alien and we don't know if those figures are human or another humanoid species like the Engineers. This could still mean that human facehuggers do not exist yet.

no question about it... the mural displays both facehuggers and humanoid figures. Physiologically speaking, the facehuggers depicted in the mural are slightly different from the traditional facehuggers (alien, aliens, alien 3). However, they are VERY similar to the traditional facehugger! There is no evidence to suggest that the facehuggers depicted in the mural are anything but full grown. they have obviously reached a state of physical maturation that would allow them to impregnate a host (thats essentially what they are shown doing in the mural). They certainly bear a greater resemblance to the classic facehugger than to the variation shown in prometheus. The humanoid figures that are displayed in the mural appear to be very human. Though we cannot prove that those are humans from earth depicted in that mural, visual evidence suggests that as the most likely possibility. The humanoid figures definitely bear a greater resemblance to "humans" than to the engineers; that much is certain. Also, the humanoid figures are clearly depicted as hosts for the facehuggers in the mural. I have the concept art book (art of the film) and it showcases very clear pictures of the mural. There really is no question regarding the facehuggers, humanoids, and some sort of xenomorph depicted on the mural/wall/door etc. As far as what came first... lv 426 crash or events on lv 223 (either the events that take place in prometheus or the decision to wipe out humanity 2000+ years ago), I dont see how it could be anything other than a scenario where the crash on lv 426 pre-dates the events on lv 223. It would be a very tough sell for scott and co. (narratively) to try and spin it the other way around. Having said all of this, it begs the question, where do the xenos come from? I feel like the eggs that were on the juggernaut on lv 426 are very very old. Therefore, the traditional form of the xenomorph pre-dates the deacon in prometheus. This is why i have been very concerned regarding the whole "proto-xeno" lingo that has been floating around regarding the deacon. I certainly hope scott and co. are not going to try and explain it that way because they will get bungled by their own narrative/chronology if they do (ive tried to come up with a scenario where that makes sense and ive failed). One thing is certain, judging by the mural, humans (or humanoids if you prefer) have been exposed to facehuggers prior to the events of prometheus. And if we are to believe that nothing much happened on lv 223 between the time that everything went to hell in the facility (approx. 2000 years ago) and the events of prometheus (which it seems like we are), then humans were exposed to facehuggers at least more than 2000 years prior to the events of the film. I know scott has said that he wants the series to diverge even further from "alien" (and i like that idea!), but at the VERY LEAST, the bio chronology we have been discussing within this thread must be put to rest in a future film. EDIT: oh yeah...plus one of the other murals on the ceiling inside of the ampule room clearly shows some sort of xenomorph hand (this particular xeno hand looks alot like a traditional xeno...certainly nothing like the deacon's hand) holding an egg that is analogous to the eggs found in the juggernaut on LV 426. so theres that too. I mean really, all evidence points to the fact that traditional xenos pre-date the events described in prometheus (whether they were created by the engineers or the engineers found them "as is" and extracted genetic material to make bioweapons...no one knows).

@joeyjoe Ah, I think I get what you're saying. So you're saying that the egg is the naturally occurring form of the xeno. The ship on LV426 was transporting them (from say the xeno home-world) to a facility like LV223 to be studied and 'weaponized,' creating the urn (seed/oil) form we see in Prometheus. There for the Deacon is a new kind of xeno, evolutionary divergent from the classic xeno. The xeno we see in Alien/Aliens/Alien3/Alien:R is actually a more archaic/prehistoric version of the alien. And unbeknownst to our protagonist (Ripley) a more evolved xeno lurks out there in the universe (The Deacon), that she conveniently never runs into, but explorers before her may have (future Alien prequels). This Deacon could also explain how 'the company' knew of the alien. (Mother confirms they knew). Expeditions after Prometheus may have had run-ins with the Deacon, but failed to capture one. Then WY learns of LV426 or the possibility of it and diverts The Nostromo.

As long as it all makes sense in the end and not just slapping things like that picture by Geiger in 1977 on a mural / door ? And you can get fossils from ice as well by the way...

@ crabfart, We are debating whether or not fossils can be found in Ice we are debating the technicality that the dead Engineer in Alien was not fossilized.

Shall I add technically to the older post? Or do it here? ok: Technically the sj could of been fossilized - the chamber was full of ice for millions / billions of years made the sj a fossil then melted etc. ? Ice can make a fossil in the right conditions :D ...Another idea might be that the bio suit is something we have never imagined and fossilises after it 'dies' for want of a better word :P ...anyway I know its sounds unlikely but it seems anything goes in this film so far :O

The Mural does have what looks like Face Huggers they do appear to be the same as Gigers Original Face Hugger Design. But to defend Spartacus..... I am not sure even if you watch Prometheus Carefully that you actually see those Face Huggers on the Mural in Prometheus, they would have been out of view of the Camera. Maybe the viewers would had had a slight glimpse. if they had a very keen eye. If we never had any images of the actual Giger full Mural knocking about and all we had was what was seen in Prometheus then i dont think we would make out the Face Hugger. Surely if Ridley wanted us to had seen the Face Huggers that where on this Mural he would have done a shot that would had clearly shown them, just as it does the actual Deacon Looking Xeno.... We do see a Organism with Face Hugger Traits and that is the Squid that grows and attaches to the Engineer, it may look different but it performs the same function. The Hammerpede also had a Face Hugger link to it, but we did not see enough of it..... on my 2nd viewing i did notice the mouth buster was some kind of Organism that then scurried away out of sight and it had a worm like body but was much smaller than the Hammerpede that we saw wrap around Milburns head before it entered his mouth this Hammerpede looked about 3-4ft in length.... the Organism that jumped out of his mouth looked only about 12 to 18 inches in length and about the size of the Chest Busters from Alien... So from what i remember seeing when it ran off on the floor the organism that came from Milburn did look like the tail end of the Chest Buster. [img]http://www.thaimokit.com/photo/VinylModel/Alien-Chest-Burster.jpg[/img] So maybe both the Hammerpede and Trilobite both have simular characteristics and purpose as the Face Hugger. Whats interesting is even if Ridley does what he says and steers away from Alien, does he mean also any Alien DNA Organisms? Therefore if Prometheus 2 and 3 do not visit or show what becomes of the events on LV 223... Hamerpede, Deacon and what ever came out of Milburn. It would leave the door open for Fox to explore these Organisms in another movie, if Ridley does not in Prometheus 1 and 2. So again Prometheus and the Alien Universe links does leave so much scope.

@ Crabfart, For there to have been ice to entomb the dead Engineer on LV-426 there would have to have been liquid water, because LV-426 is a "Primordial" planet, there is no liquid water and thus no ice. Even had ice been present to would not have been enough pressure on top of the ice to cause fossilization. Technically no fossils have ever been found in ice - they were either fossils that got uncovered and then frozen in ice, or they are technically mummified remains. Had the dead Engineer been fossilized, he would have been encased in sedimentary layers, and would have not retained his natural posture. Read [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil]HERE[/url] for what constitutes what is and what isn't a fossil.

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I wonder if Ridley Scott is plating with the idea of evolution on Earth beginning in global spots of slimey goo so it is true now upon LV-223 with the exposure of the little worms into the Black Substance we are seeing an accelorated form of biological evolution with regards to the worms into snakes and Holloways sperm into a squid-like amphibian and Shaws apparant non-concieving ability suddenly reversed. Evolution appears to be in fast forward when in contact with the Substance and having the Sacraficial Engineer on possible pre-cambrian earth to seed his DNA structure with that of what would be ours and now ours is now inter-mixed with that of the varied alien liforms upon LV-223 you have to wonder if an explosion of evolution has not been unleashed upon this world now. We now have worms to snakes right in a matter of hours, left to their own devices for weeks or months to gestate even further then the alien snakes could be evolved into really bizzare things ready for a future mission to discover if such an idea were used in future sequels to the franchise. They could be like alien reptillian alligator-dinosaur type things running around! Cool! And we would have to fight them as in a simmilar vein as the Colonial Marines did in Aliens and BUG Hunt them like Starship Troopers! Maybe the Deacon is somehow going to be exsposed to the Black Substance or even take a dive into it even a bath of some sorts and get mutated a thousand fold into god knows what! That would be cool to wonder about, and to see! The Substance is like the genisis probe and its effects in Star Trek II & III where little life forms upon Spocks burial tube mutate within 17 hours or so or 24 into bigger and bigger life forms at an accelorated rate. Dr. Marcus (Kirk's son) used Proto-Matter as an 'accelorant' within the genisis matrix so he could see the growth patterns happen more exponatially with faster results, the same 'God arrogance' or playing god complex that befalls both him and that of the Bio Engineers - very interesting parallels here to be drawn.

@ big dave: the facehuggers are visible on the mural in the film. Also, i simply cannot accept that the filmmakers were being anything other than deliberate concerning the depictions of various lifeforms inside of the ampule room. "it just looked cool" is not even close to being an acceptable rationale for their inclusion. Yes, the murals added a great deal aesthetically to the ampule room, but they also add a great deal narratively as well (potentially). I refuse to believe scott and co. are so unfathomably bad at their jobs (story tellers) that they just farted the stuff out on the wall without any narrative consideration whatsoever. @ Aramaki: yes...your extrapolations from my post are right in line with how i am interpreting the events of the film(s). IMO, the engineers either found the xenos "as is" somewhere and were so impressed with their efficient singleness of purpose (focused, simple, death....think ash's monologue from alien) that they extracted genetic material/info from them and created a stripped down, even more efficient, delivery system (ampules) for the purpose of extermination before re-population of earth (or any other "petri dishes" of theirs) etc. (damn....what a sloppy run-on sentence!) OR: the the "traditional xenomorph" is also a genetic experiment belonging to the engineers. In this scenario, the "traditional xeno" would just be one of the earlier incarnations of the engineer's bio-weapons. In either case, the eggs/traditional xeno (depicted on lv 223 and found on lv 426) pre-date the events on lv 223 (hence the fact that those things are depicted in artwork inside the weapons facility). The ship on LV 426 is eons old and houses an older attempt at bio-weapons than does the ampule room on lv 223. The murals may, among other things, be a visual tribute/reference to where the material in those particular ampules came from (original lifecycle...origins etc). And yes, i think the fact that xenomorphs pre-date the events of prometheus and have existed for sometime leads into how W.Y. eventually comes know of their existence (or allready does...who knows). I dont think the company learns of the xenos existence through the deacon (It would be such a cramped timeline for numerous reasons). Some of what ive been talking about is pretty much fact and some of it is just total speculation, but its what makes the most sense to me right now. We'll see what future offerings hold for us.

@snorkle No actually they have found some for instance a mammoth fossil was found in switzerland formed in ice only - same process though just with ice surrounding the object. Liquids are found on primordial planets and it doesn't have to be water - other elements too that freeze - anyway I doubt it would be that. My other point was its sci-fi they can make anything up of course - like maybe the whole ship was in a giant frozen commet and crashed into the planet. in a sci fi world getting the fossil fact to stick pales in comparison with some of whats in prometheus!

@Crabfart Fossils of mammoths have been found in Switzerland but in Peat at gravel pits. A baby mammoth was found in ice in Siberia. It was mummified. Buried in mud that froze quickly. You need more than liquid to make a fossil. You need the sediment. It hardens and the minerals replace the bone making them rock. (compression fossil). I feel though that this area of discussion is besides the point.

I get bored, so I am reading this post again after a week or two from scratch... In response to the original post and one of the first discussions= To: ARAMAKI-- My take on chestburster embryo implantation by facehugger doesn't require a DNA match. The implanted embryo simply absorbs whatever the host eats, and then extracts itself, violently killing the host. Since the new xenomorph tends to resemble it's former host, perhaps the hosts DNA is copied/cloned/mutated, etc, after the embryo is implanted- but before it wants out. In the original Alien, why didn't Dallas, or even Ash take a look-see at Kane when he woke up? It was noted that "its got something down his throat" whilst the facehugger was present... To: METALOS-- The facehugger in the original Alien got through Kane's helmet, as we all know. It couln't be that much more difficult to get through an Engineer's bio-suit helmet even though it is certainly not the same material (plexiglass). It is my assumption that acidic fluids (not just blood) make this likely.

@aircraftfixer: as far as someone inspecting kane (i assume you mean by way of some sort of scan etc.), that task would definitely be a part of ash's responsibilities. As we found out, ash had a vested interest (because of his specific programming) in protecting any kind of alien life. I think we are supposed to infer that, while not completely aware of what was going to happen, ash knew to some degree that SOMETHING was going to happen to kane after the facehugger finished up with him. Ash either wouldnt scan him in the first place (he wouldnt want to cause alarm or somehow jeapordize the objective) OR ash could have scanned kane for some sort of foreign alien organism, but not told anyone his findings (for obvious reasons). Ash wanted that puppy born and the rest of the crew clearly didnt matter in the least.

www.weylandindustries.com/timeline Look at this: DISCOVERY OF ACHERON LV-426 Weyland astronomers discover multiple moons and a ringed planet just outside the Zeta 2 Reticula System, which are possibly able to support life. Weyland expects to travel there within the century. MAY 14, 2039

Thanks JOEYJOE! I was looking for a conversation about some of the questions from the original Alien, due to Prometheus being almost entirely a bunch of unanswered questions...

Hi Sorry for my English :P. Look at this people: http://zapodaj.net/22ea8b54afbc5.jpg.html This is Fifield,in more mutated form,he looks like he is turned into alien maybe,Holloway was turning into the same creature and he have inside ''worm'' which gave Shaw,and Shaw was born trilobite,what if Holloway didn't give her a ''worm''?,in more mutated form(when he would look like more alien) maybe he was born this trilobite in egg? like true alien queen?.Again sorry for my English.

I think that the Mural depicts the Queen, and that it's possible that the "Engineers" are just slaves to their will? Ever wonder while there are only male "Engineers"? If you read the myth of the Titan Prometheus, that Wayland talks about Prometheus wants to help humanity gain an even footing, and steals fire from Zeus to give to humanity, so he was cast out. In that same myth Zeus later creates Pandora who is female. "Pandora then lifted the lid of the vessel in which the foresight of Prometheus had concealed all the evils which might torment mortals in life. Diseases and sufferings of every kind now issued forth, but deceitful hope alone remained behind. So it seems to me that either the "Engineers" (who I would relate to Prometheus in the Greek myth) are subservient to the Xenomorph Queen (Pandora) or there is another race or what could be characterized as Zeus, that created both "The Engineers" (Prometheus) first and the (Xenomorph Queen) second. However my idea doesn't quite work... when the engineer drinks that stuff inside pandoras box that he opens at the beginning that tears him to pieces his dna breaks down and then reattaches to create us... So its unfortunate that thats how they started the movie... It wouldve been cooler if they were visitors to earth that enslaved us and that one lead a rebellion but died. The other engineers left and wanted to attack humanity. But like I said that wont work with how the movie began.... if only theyd rewrite just the first 5 minutes.