The FINAL Canon Debate

But what is the purpose of looking for Cannon, really? The rules can change at any directors' whim.. the rules are just made-up as they go alone.. but, hey, on second thought that's a pretty good working definition of 'Cannon' - that and dealing w/ contradictions.. just my 2 cents.

Nice call Brett!!

..and by 'director' I mean anyone with enough clout to push the franchise (and that's such a better word than Cannon, I'm so sorry) in whatever direction they wish. Speaking of loose ends when's the Peter/Chares W. connection ever gonna be flushed out...

...or lack off I should say, ...right. ...and while on topic why shouldn't Blade Runner be added into the same mix (other than a few time line contradictions) but maybe the dates were changed to protect the innocent? I say BR has more of a 'right' to exist as Holy Cannon w/ ALIEN than the rest of the trippe.. even if the dots don't all line up, the distopian, thematic, and stylalized vision all do.. ...right.

Nrlfetmefan and Snorkelbottom: As for seing the way one wants, it is obvious to the lot that Nrlfetmefan is disregarding the fact that ALIEN is a stand-alone movie prior to any Pred movie. Did Schwarzie fight a Xeno? NO HE DID NOT. Was he employed by Weyland? NO HE WAS NOT. Get over it. Snorks: Saying that a Pred doesn't make it's appearance in any of the Alien movies is not a sign of it not being in the same Universe is as a much of a fallacy as saying "just because a dog barks it doesn't mean he is really a dog". Sensless. I understand the desire to put the Alien and the Preds together for action sake, but please... two diferent creations from two diferent people. Blame it on the game makers.

There' s something very wrong w this logic (but why call it that?)

I have read comments from fans who think that only Scott's Alien is canon. So according to this Canon is just what I like, and the rest to hell.

Shambala: And I'm one of them. ALIEN is THE Canon. The rest is fan made stuff to cash in at someone elses creation. Like a painter trying to make an extention to the original paintings of the Sistine Chapel. mehh.

I haz a karrot.

@david1 Yes I am seeing it the way that I want. I am free to do so and can back it up with very basic logic....this does not make me foolish. Thus far you have not quoted one single interview or article dismissing the other movies. Why don't you just show us something aside from your personal opinion and settle this once and for all? You up for that challenge? BRING IT ON! It your options are right, we still all win the battle of having a greater understanding of the alien universe. ;)

Nrlfetmefan: Mate, it seems to me so sensles such a request when you - one who defends the same universe stuff - can't present neither footage not even quotes from the dudes that made the ALIEN movies. And there you go mate. P.S.: Sir Ridley stated him self he hates AVP. Give us all a quote from an Alien movie maker that says "oh yes, Predators are in the same Universe, totally. You can't see them 'cause they are cloaked and stuff". Guess what? You'll never find any of those. BECAUSE THEY ARE TWO DIFERENT MOVIE UNIVERSES. Hope you feel enlightened now. If not... welll, sorry for that. Keep searching.

I still haz karrots...

Quote from snorks: - There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe - There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise Prove it wrong david1...that's all I ask.

lolololol. There is no information that my neighbours cat plays Dungeons & Dragons late at night... that surely means that he does.

One night I peeked into your neighbors house and saw two cats....I sh@t you not...playing d&d...the tabby was the dm.

LOLOLOL. good one.

@Nrlfetmefan I can't help find this whole initial position and a lot of the following discussion a little odd, 'though?.. Isn't it hopeless to expect an objective of "Show declaration that X, Y and Z is not canon", to actually be answered?! As if we are discussing so many entries in Excel workbooks?.. What that objective would require, in actual practice, is that one Author would publicly denounce another Author's work as invalid: when neither of them own the Property under discussion and where the one Author has a relationship he wants to maintain with the Owner of the Property - he being a Studio - and also a professional reputation and personal life he probably wants to be kept free of bad blood, prima-donna drama, and ridiculous in-fighting... surely, this is an impossible position? Furthermore, the objective seems to be setting a , "burden of disproof" - which does seem a little cart-before-the-horse, to me, but, nevertheless: in respect of [i]both[/i] these things, I can't help think that @Svanya, with her usual economy, has plotted the best and soundest course - assuming you give additional weight to the opinions of those Author's with original or earliest interest in terms of defining the basis of canon, [which would seem reasonable], and also make an allowance for the diplomacy that will necessarily be required in the delivery of those opinions, [which would seem sensible and discriminating] - surely the objective is as good as answered?

I liked the idea of AVP in comic form just to satisfy my curiosity of how things might turn out but the films were B-movies at best. Ridley Scott said he didn't even watch any of the AVP's. I don't blame him, they suck, they suck bad. It was kind of a cool little Easter egg in Predator 2 of the "possible" Alien skull trophy, but any more than that is making a joke of both franchises. Besides, the more interesting dilemma after age 20 is not who can kick whose ass but who are they, why do they want to kill us and how can we get out of this mess?

Of course we can always demonstrate without a shadow of a doubt that the Preds are in ALL ALIEN movies: http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/9366

@David 1, I do not agree with you with the Alien is the only canon. Ok Alien is a masterpiece but to say that the rest of movie is not canon is like saying I do not like the new trilogy of Star Wars and therefore is not canon. IMHO the Canon is independent of taste or subjective statements of the fans. regards

(high-fives) Nice work Snorkelbottom, I'm glad we finally cleared this up. It's a good thing this is finally once and for all settled.

Canon, wasn't he the heavy set TV Detective with the great voice??? [img]http://museumofuncutfunk.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Frank-Cannon.jpg[/img]

^^ Hahah Patch!

- There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe [b]- There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise[/b][i][u][/u][/i] - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise Like I said on page two, Alien V Predator is set in 2004 with Charles Bishop Weyland as owner of Weyland Industries. Prometheus has now told us that Weyland Industries didn't form until 2012 and was founded by Sir Peter Weyland. Im going to side with Prometheus on this one as to what is canon.

Shambhala, don't, or I'll unleash MIDICLORIANS on your 'force'. ;)

@FreePlanet, all my sith lightning are directed to David 1 muahaha [img]http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s402/Albertocrazy86/sw6_2004-palpatine-1.gif[/img]

Saw Prometheus yesterday evening. To me, neither Predator movies fit in the Alien storyline, considering the proto-Alien is born at the end of Prometheus. Predator, Predator 2 and AvP movies show that Aliens and Eggs were present before earliest man civilizations. Predator 2 shows Alien skull on board of the Predator ship. How would that be possible, if the proto-Alien was born through an unexpected mixing between black ooze, humans, human-to-human transition and Engineers/SpaceJockeys, during the events on Prometheus, long, long after the events of Predator movies? We suspect it takes another step for the proto-Alien to evolve into actual Aliens. Another combination must result in a Facehugger, Eggs and/or Alien Queen. For actual Aliens to appear long before Prometheus, there would have to be an unlikely string of events exactly the same as on board of Prometheus: black ooze from the wazes+human male+human female=proto-Facehugger, proto-Facehugger+Engineer/SpaceJockey=proto-Alien. How likely is it, that such unusual mixing took place on numerous occasions before? Actually, one could argue that Prometheus cancels out any Predator storylines in general, considering there were never Aliens for them to hunt before Prometheus first messed with the Engineer/SpaceJockey spaceship. What do you guys think?

@Dustie, I see where you are coming from but you have forgotten one thing. The Derelict in Alien was on LV-426 for a long time, before the events of prometheus, and was carrying Eggs already.

@alienamberclad I do see your point. I don't think that the writers and directors are the people that get to dictate what exists and does not in the existing alien universe. I would think that would be left to the owners of the property. Who is that by the way? Is that fox or Giler and Hill? I am sure one of you can answer this....I can't. @Brett Good point...I have also wondered about the timeline where Charles Weyland vs Peter Weyland are concerned. Is Charles his father or uncle or something? Is there a clear timeline out there? After searching on the Internet a bit, I did find an alien wiki that suggests that Charles was his father, but the site also said that the "bishop" from alen3 was Michael Weyland. Michael was an engineer who designed the bishop model after his likeness and Michael happens to look very similar to Charles being a close relative. I don't know about all of that...seems a little scetchy. @ dusty The answer that we all are waiting for about the derelict from alien and all the eggs on board has yet to be shown. I always thought that the derelict was very old, older than the events during promet

i dont really like AVP, mainly on the ground that the xenomorph would slaughter the predator easily. the AVP disgrace the xenomorph. I like the predator movies, its a prettty cool creature. not too sure about his weapony though....if he looked the wrong way a fired, he would shoot himself in the back of the head